Hellesen, and actors david salley and Craig Wallace. All these actors appeared on the ford stage, or great works but appeared on the forwards stage, too many times to count. We are thrilled to have them with us today. I am also, i would like to say that we have been watching demonstrations unfold in our neighborhoods and across the nation. As we prayed to the future of the fords feet are, we know we have work to do. We commit to using our platform to tell stories that speak to the present moment with courage, inspiration, feeling, and of course, Abraham Lincolns legacy. Today we are talking with Richard HellesenCraig Wallace david selby, in a specific play that they all took part in. Fords theater premiered this in 2012. Ford commissioned to at this play, to celebrate the opening of our leadership in 2011. This play explores the relationship between president Abraham Lincoln, played by david selby, and the abolitionist Frederick Douglass, played by Craig Wallace. It seems particularly important, to consider the leadership of these two great americans as they helped our country find its way through one of our greatest crisis is. So, i want to start this afternoon, first of all, by welcoming you all. Thank you so much for being with us. From across the country. California, d. C. , coast to coast over here. Lets start with Richard Hellesen, our playwright. Tell us a bit more about the play, richard. How and why did you put this play together . Im, okay. Basically it is the story of two meetings that happened at the white house during the civil war, between Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass. One was a summer of 1863, and one was the summer of 1864, a year later. I wish they basically went at it. First, over how to get the country through this crisis, in a way that it is not for everybody. And then secondly when the crisis was over, try to envision what kind of country wanted when the war was over. Because we couldnt wait till then to start shaping. So first of its about douglas trying to talk and its lincoln to make a war over abolition and then its about when lincoln finally agrees to that, both of them realizing that they have to face the implications of that. What its going to mean in terms of citizenship and equal rights. Its kind of a push poll between the two of them. Douglas is an outsider, hes an instigator, and agitator, hes agitating for what he needs leaves needs to what happened. Like an isnt insider, he says this is going to be harder than what you think it is. Its politics, theres institutions involved. The play was commissioned the year that the new institution was gonna open against the street. Ive already done a couple of things for the theaters, a couple of short things. One destiny some of you may know. So i got an email in the fall of 2010 asking if i be interesting in writing a play for 2012. The thing you need to realize as that commissions often come with parameters. There are things at the theater want you to do when you write a play. Its almost like its an assignment. So one destiny. Lincoln dust assassination one one act to our. So happen to find my silent for this play in an original email. We would like it to be an exploration of litter ship, we elected to focus on lincoln, three to five characters with a simple set. Wed like one of the characters to be African American if possible and to go into rehearsal in one year. laughs i was that specific . Enough. Well it is what it is. The funny thing was the thing that jumped out and he was a fourth thing that wed like to be one character to be africanamerican. I thought especially with a small cast, three to five size cast, they didnt want the character to be minor. I didnt want to be minor i didnt wanted to be a servant, one of those multiple role playing people have placed three to five parts. I wanted that character to be illegitimate, dramatic character in the fly. So nick is what i looked at the email, my first email response back was to forwards, how about Frederick Douglas cause he was the first came to mind. What kind of chewed on that and kicked around for a while. Bless your heart sarah, remember her directive education to mention book called a radical and the republican. By james oakes. Frederick douglass, Abraham Lincoln and the triumph of the slavery in politics. When i got out to get the part where they read where they met for the first time. And i said thats it, i have characters i have seen, i have setting i have focus. So now its a go. Let me come back to that for a minute. Before i do that, i want to bring david and craig in the conversation here. David, you have played lincoln in many, many venues all across the country. And you have played lincoln for fords theater preprevious to this production and our production celebrated the bicentennial heavens remain block. He played lincoln and worse places what made you, what drew you to display . What made you feel like this play was worth you bringing lincoln back to the stage . I think because of the relationship between douglas and lincoln. And how important they were to each other. I just thought and then when i read the play and ive had the same reaction in this last days leading up to now, going back reading it again i still have my script in my folder right here and i have my notes and my lining and my comments. Everybodys notes or whatever that pertain, to lincoln. I dont know, it just spoke to me. It spoke to me in a way, it goes back to what richard said. I found that here were two equals. Two equals that had ironically in a certain way not the same upbringing but very similar. They were both not particularly well educated in a formal education sense. Douglas we knew was a slave, lincoln was born and raised a little bit down in kentucky, then they moved up to illinois. His life, he was driven such as douglas was driven to do something. They just had an energy and they werent people that you know, they would compromise. They remember why they were doing what they were doing to better make the world a little better. And if they could do that, and that was it and i just spoke to me in those ways. Terrific. Now craig of course you had a very different, very unique journey coming to necessary sacrifices. Im not gonna set it up anywhere why dont you just tell us a little bit about your journey and how you got here. I know it was short and rapid, but all let you go and tell us. Well, i was in rehearsal for a production of to kill a mockingbird at milwaukee wrap. We were in a first week of her rehearsal. I get a call from kirsten foxx and she says to me, would you be willing to leave that show up and come to forwards and play frederick dug the glove in our production. Your current Frederick Douglass and taken ill and were booed to go into tech. Long story short, i arrived on a thursday attacks that we can and the next weekend we had an audience. It was exciting and terrifying all at the same time. But thanks to everybody affords and david in particular and richard patients, i got to know the play, learn the play and ultimately do it. And i enjoy doing it. Regular not only, now its one thing to sort of step in and say well im just gonna plop in infill in here. You not only came from afar and dropped in and what a life saver you are, but you actually embodied the character and the role so brilliantly. You really by the end of it, oh my god, could we have ever imagine anyone else doing this playing . Watching you and david onstage was really just a treat and a dream and a great place to go. A whirlwind for you. Thank you and you know it was already strong going in so they had already built it. I just move my stuff in. laughs if i remember correctly with the scripts. James kranz rub leaves our set designer. He made me this book and the script was written in this beautiful book with parchment paper, so what looked like Frederick Douglass was carrying around this period book when in fact it was my script. laughs it all worked. It all worked and it really was such a beautiful production and i think the audience felt that way but one went that was actually very popular with audiences. People, here we are eight years after we produced a show and people still talk about necessary sacrifice. I think part of it is we know the douglas im lincoln were contemporaries, they were only at the same time. But we dont often think at that they inner actually interacted. I think that one of the things that keeps this play so interesting and intriguing two audiences that is one of the things. One of the questions i want to ask you richard. One of the things i think that forwards has always been so successful at as intersection of history and theater. So you talk about the true meanings meetings that Frederick Douglas had with lincoln at the white house. The douglas gnaw have meetings with lincoln . What else do we know about those two meetings . Almost nothing. Which is why its great for a dramatist. Because its wide open at that point. You do have a responsibility to the time and people. Premuch everything we know about it firsthand is from douglas. He wrote a couple of letters, he mentioned the first meeting in a speech. I was very proud to go out and tell about a, he was it storyteller about meeting lincoln and how buddy fell to go to the white house. He wrote about it extensively and his third autobiography. By that time he was kind of buffing up his image so got a little embellished. Lincoln wrote nothing. Obviously, he never left an odd autobiography, he never spoke about. So we know nothing about that. All we know is what douglas said and whatever contextual things we can find out about policy that was going on at the time. I had just the barest bones that there were these two meetings, they did happen. I did some Historical Research to find out about those meetings. Obviously nobody was in the room so you cant know what they said. It wasnt recorded and thats why i said that the intersection of history and drama becomes really interesting. It has to work is drama but you do have a sense of history kind of hanging over back here, and not outraging it too much. Its an interesting box to be in. Well listen. We have a very special treat today a craig and david have agreed to read a scene from the play. Im gonna let richard set up the scene and give us a little bit of synopsis. I do just want to remind our audiences that this is a reading, we gave the script to craig and david are sort of gave them a couple of days ago and certainly they are gonna read it for us. Richard would you set up the scene were gonna seeing and then let these guys show us their amazing prowess the two great man . Set up. Its 1863, to summer after the emancipation proclamation. One of the elements of the proclamation that black men were accepted into the United States army for the first time. Douglas became a passionate recruiter for that. His sons were the first two to sign up for the 54th massachusetts. He felt this was our moment. Once we get that goal but not our jacket and we get that must get in our hands and fight for the nation, they will never be able to denies our equality and our rights. Even though they were getting half the pay of white soldiers and they were not allowed to become officers, at least we have this chance. Who is a very he was a very successful recruiter. And they went off the fight and as soon as they went off to fight and in battles, the south issued orders than any black troops were captured or other be shot or sent into slavery. I was absolutely brutal. They were not to be treated like regular prisoners. The word from lincoln was silence. That did it for douglas. Everything else is problematic, im not gonna sign up another man to go fight for this unless i get some support, some backup from the white house. So he went to washington and he got into see secretary stanton. Stanton didnt exactly blah miles but he offered him a commission in the army to go recruit. Hes essentially saying, the quiet. Since he was right next door, he went to the white house announced. He wanted to take it up with lincoln. And he said on his card at lincoln brought a man. Just before the scene, and is most folksy, humorous prairie politician type of way, lincoln is trying to calm douglas down about the pain promotion. Selectness saying, hes gonna go back and recruit, were all good, thanks for stopping by. Then this all right all right gentlemen. Well, i will be grateful to have you recruiting. Its good to talk with you mr. Douglas. There is something else. Go on. Suppose i put on that uniform . If those eagles shining and everybody. Go to the Mississippi Valley and suppose in the course of those efforts i should be captured by the rebels. You know what Jefferson Davis said hes gonna do . One moment. An ego captured while fighting for the union is a dead man. At the very least, sold into slavery. No matter his rank, whether it be a free man or or runaway. I know. I know what youre driving at douglas. And you wrongly. He paid in double. You can make every colored soldier a general but they have no protection. Protection. Youre talking about retaliation. Killing seven prisoners. Answering murder with murder. If the alternative is answering murder with silence. Not so fast. Pain promotion is fine. I dont like it but i understand. Those black man who joined your army are my responsibility. When they fought like heroes it for hudson, and militants bennett, for wagner, only be to be tied up and shot or stabbed and beaten to death and nothing. Not a word came from the president of the United States. You dont want protection. You want retaliation. You want revenge. I want justice. Its not justice to kill a man for something he didnt do. Only because the prisoners issue might have to be rebels. But they are white. Is that it . That is surely what the country will say. We knew lincoln would get to this. Now white man or to be killed. Or to be killed by and word. Never nevertheless i have ordered it. Against every bit of my better judgment. Ten days ago, for every soldier the United States kills in violation of the laws of war, a rebel soldier shall be executed. And for everyone and sleigh by the enemy, a rebel soldier shall be placed and a hard labor until the other shall be released. I didnt know. A more killing will lead to last i dont know. But the army seems to agree with you. Can you guarantee that this policy will be carried out . Why do you doubt . Because excellency with all due respect. You have a pension for compromise. Never mind. I know what you think of me. Its certainly filled your newspapers with it for all to read. I am all sad and discerning feature of our present political military situation is not the various disasters experience by armies and navies, but the tardy, hesitating, vacillating policy of the president of the United States. That is not precisely what i meant. Looks darn precise to me. And here. An administration without a policy is an administration without brains. Since wallet thing is to be done, it implies unknown way to do it. And he, who professes his ability to do it but cannot show how it is to be done can facets his own imbecility. I wasnt aware you had a subscription. I dont. But thats hardly the way to get me to buy one. I wrote that when emancipation was still a question. Now you know the answer. Did i not do what i said i would do . As far as it goes. But i did it. And no man can say that having once taken a position i have contradicted it or retreated from it. I may go slow and i may find roundabout ways to get where im going but i get there. And in the meantime people suffer. You need a lecture me on suffering. There are dispatches on this table that would make you shudder. I read them every day. I would stop every bit of it if i could. Jefferson davis offered his order when the first called regiments were formed. Why didnt you order retaliation on the same day . The people. The people had to accept it first. That is why i have such doubts. The day they stop expecting it may be the days top and forcing. It mr. Douglas, i have issued my order and expected to be followed. If you find that tardy and hesitating im sorry. But i can only go as far as fast as the people of this country let me. That is not leadership. It it is in a democracy. Understand something. The suffering of any soldier cuts me to the core. And there can be no progress were colored soldiers are concerned until the country feels the same way. Awful as it is, the people need to be as moved by the suffering in the gallantry of niagara troops as they were at shiloh. Now, i did not send your volunteers into battle intending for them to be butchered afterwards. But it happened. And would it were not so. But having happened, and the cause of bringing the country along, those men at fort wagner in militant spain poor hudson, yes i read those reports too. They became necessary sacrifices to that and. So thats it. They die to make a point. Not at all. But if there is a point to be made, is that not one you yourself would make . Then you may keep your commission. I will give you no more necessary sacrifices until you can tell me which ones you consider unnecessary. Im sorry to taking your time excellency. God lassie. Bravo . Bravo i mean, this is just a small taste of what this play is about. Two monumental historical characters in our history. And their relationship. You can see the tension between douglas and lincoln. What i think most of the smell there was a tension in their lifetime. All of you can chime in here douglas was one of lincolns most, one of his biggest supporters thats probably the wrong word. After lincoln died, douglas always and toned lincoln because he knew that lincoln was on the right side. Am i right richard there . I think so. He knew that he went further than others. I dont think he ever felt he went far enough. But relatively speaking, you did lloyd learn confers far as a. When i think that wouldve continued if lincoln had not died. I really do believe that relationship wouldve continued. I think you wouldve had douglas back. I think he wouldve asked him. You know that phrase, i keep coming back to that phrase. The stole it sharpens in a knife, you know that phrase . I think of douglas as the stone that kept sharpening lincolns knife. Not that lincoln was not sharp to begin with, but he needed to be pushed and guided and the fact that i think they were both that they did see each other, they recognize something of themselves in the other. Thats why they were able to