Controversial, emotional, and something we need to talk about. And from time to time when ive done this panel with friends and colleagues, ive called it on or off their pedestals. The debate over statues, memory and meaning. And i discussed this topic maybe twice or three times with edna medford and it is evolving even between us as we proceed over a year and a half. And its a pleasure to welcome not only edna medford, but also liz varon and Gary Gallagher to join the discussion. Of 1728 confederate memorials in 22 states and the district of columbia, 110 have been removed in the past few years. And three new ones have been built. So its good to have the opportunity to take a snapshot. At best, it will be a snapshot. And i think that we all have to agree that however we feel about art, iconography, memorials, icons, history, american heroes and american villains alike, that the controversy over statues and memorials not only tributes to confederates in the south, but also to those, for example, and i will show you some images in a few minutes, honoring historical figures in new york state continues at a high kind of boil. I would like to show you some images and let me start with this one. This is my opening slide to suggest the iconoclasm is not new. Im not suggesting that we can blame all of this on charlton heston, but [laughter] harold but moses did destroy the golden calf, and maybe thats where iconoclasm started. But it has had more recent manifestations. The buddhas nearly 140 miles from kabul stood until the early part of the 21st century. They were destroyed and now they are being rebuilt in silicone. Silicon. So, iconoclasm is sometimes reversible, but not something we should consider. This is, on the right, a statue hardship suit a statue of the egyptian pharaoh. This is even earlier than the buddhas. This is 1500 bc. When she, who dressed as a he, left the throne, all of the statues were destroyed. You see a dig at the metropolitan museum was running. Those pieces were gathered. The head was found in her collection in berlin, and now its reunited at the met. So again, reversals. Here are some heads that were destroyed and thrown into the and thrown into the seine by iconoclasts that once adorned notre dame. Again, heres one thats controversial and remains so. This is a sculpture from wittenberg where Martin Luther , preached. Its jews suckling on a pig. Its an antisemitic statue. Many people are calling for it to be removed on its 500 birthday while others say its a matter of history and theres a plaque nearby that adds context by apologizing for its ancient spew of hatred. Iconoclasm is not new to the United States. These are the colonists in new york city ripping down the statue of george the third hours after the declaration of independence was first read in new york city, i think july 14. And on and on. Ill just do these quickly. Jefferson once stood in front of the white house. He no longer does. George washington, known as bath outside the capital. Figure looked at this when he was inaugurated twice. It was considered unseemly later. It in the basement of the smithsonian. Statutory hall is no longer permanent. California thought its favorite king. Ould be thomas theres someone who does. Well, youre from california. Who is there now . Ronald reagan. Again, impermanence of memorials. Stalins statues didnt do very well. John wilkes booth was once in the rotunda of the Abraham Lincoln president ial library and museum until people thought it was inappropriate. And, of course, we will circle back eventually to lee in richmond, and im sure gary will talk a bit about charlottesville, the infamous night in charlottesville. I was there when this statue was dedicated in richmond. It looks benign enough. Tad visiting and richmond, supposedly, in 1865. And this is the demonstration that occurred on the day it was dedicated. Leave lee in richmond. Of course, the great series of statues as great art. Some of them are great. This one is great. Some of them are not. Jefferson davis. And some of the responses are not. Arthur ashe, for example, at the end of monument avenue. Then we get to the recent period when these statues have been removed. Mayor landrieu had statues moved in new orleans. Here are some other removal work being done. Roger tawney once stood this may not be that statue, but he once stood in front of the statehouse in annapolis. And right next to it was thurgood marshall. [laughter] harold what is more powerful . What is more powerful, the just xtaposition of a man who said black people could not be citizens and have no rights which a white person is bound to respect, next to the man who became the first africanamerican on the Supreme Court . Or just marshall without that back story of what has happened since dred scott . Anyway, well talk about that. Removals. And, of course, durham, where statues were pulled down. The generic statues of soldiers. This is the dedication of that statue, as you can see, a big deal. And here is what became of it when students got their hands on that statue. How do people confront some of these statues today if they dont pull them down . This one is pretty high up. Well, they managed graffiti on silence on this silent sam sentinel. And heres another statue that has been marked up. In new york city, we have a statue of theodore roosevelt, an africanamerican, and a native american together, the subject of quite a bit of controversy for the last couple of years. In albany, we have Daniel Chester frenchs hand in the statue of sheridan. And there are people who would like that statue removed from albany. Thomas pauls statue of lincoln and an enslaved person rising or kneeling, depending on your interpretation, has been in washington since 1876. All of the money raised for this statue was contributed by freedmen and Frederick Douglass gave the brilliant address. But there are those who are discomforted by it. In new york, we recently proposed the first statue of a woman in central park. The only women in central park are mother goose and alice in wonderland. They dont count as history statues. Susan bproposal with anthony and katie stanton. That does not include the africanamerican contributions to suffrage. Now people say Sojourner Truth should not be with those two women because their attitudes on africanamerican suffrage were retrograde. One answer or one solution or one approach we might consider is new statues. This is an extraordinary equestrian statue that appeared in times square in new york. It is destined for richmond. It is 27 feet high, called rumors of war. It shows its a classical composition, but the rider is wearing dreadlocks and a hoodie and its going to the Virginia Museum of fine arts. Harold walker has done a riff on the statue of Queen Victoria in front of buckingham palace. A fountain, jets emerging from the breasts of the statue, the jugular spouts water. And this is rather an extraordinary work of art. So build we must is another approach. Heres a statue of columbus in new york city that now bears a pair of bloodied hands to represent columbus approach to native peoples. And thats just a little bit of what is going on around the country. So, i guess the basic question id like to ask is, as an historian, as a human being, should we build . Should we reconsider or contextualize . Lets start with edna. [laughter] edna you know, im a person of color first. Im a historian second. When let me briefly give you a background of my experience with the confederate monuments. I grew up outside of richmond. And whenever i went to richmond and i had to travel up monument avenue, i had to deal with those monuments there. And even as a child, i wondered what they were all about. And then as i got older and i realized that they were memorials to men who had fought a war that was intended to keep my people enslaved, it became very difficult for me to appreciate it from any kind of artistic perspective or historical. And so, as a person of color, i dont think that its enough to contextualize because people are not going to stop and read whats on a plaque if its on a monuments, if it is on monument avenue, or some other place. I say remove them, take them down, put them in a museum, and contextualize them there. I dont believe in destroying history, but history doesnt have to be in my face all the time, and it certainly doesnt have to be on public lands that i am helping my taxes are helping to pay for. If its in someones home, its on someones personal property, thats their business. But if its a public space, it should not be there if im expected to maintain it. Harold and liz, from both you and gary, know charlottesville well. Liz i would say i agree with edna, having observed this drama in charlottesville unfold and having educated myself on the origins of the confederate statues and on the intentions of those who erected them, and i can say a lot more about that. I think recontextualizing them in a Museum Setting that is pedagogical and curated so that people can learn about context, is essential. Now, ive heard a range of arguments on the half of keeping the statues up. And theres a set of arguments that i respect very much, though i disagree, and a set of arguments that i think are very dangerous, and i think we have to distinguish between the two of them. The set of arguments that i with which i disagree but respect, and ive heard friends and colleagues make this argument, that Something Like charlottesvilles lees statue shows that there is a direct line between the confederacy and its policies and jim crow segregation, and they can be used as teachable moments, teachable sort of props, to show that there was this direct connection, if properly contextualized. That, again, i see the merit of the argument. But theres another kind of argument that you hear. And this is an argument made by recent defenders of these statues in a recent Charlottesville Court case in an attempted to defend a 1909 law that prevents localities from taking statues down, and attempt s to hold the city counselors who attempts to take those statues down financially liable. And the defenders in that context argued the statues had nothing whatsoever to do with race or slavery or White Supremacy and so on. You may say its ludicrous someone would make that argument in the present moment, but people do. That argument is very different than the first one i made and we have to sort of stand up to that. These statues and in charlottesville, the purpose of them was to promote the worshipful reverence of robert e. Lee and Stonewall Jackson, the veneration and vindication of those men. In a modern city, i dont see why some but he has to walk by i dont see why someone has to walk by them in the morning. Lets put them in a place where they can be curated. Gary this is something hard to deal with in a short period of time. At bottom, what to do with the statue is a local issue, first of all. I dont think anyone who lives in tacoma, washington should have anything to say about what happens to statues in charlottesville, virginia. I think its a local issue. Charlottesville took a careful approach toward what to do with the statues of lee and jackson. And that was they had public hearings. They had a range of witnesses who spoke at those hearings. They had a commission that sifted through the evidence and made a recommendation to the politicians in charlottesville. I think thats the way to go about that. As one who taught at the university of virginia for 22 years and used the confederate memorial landscape as a teaching tool for all those 22 years, i find it somewhat distressing that we flatten out the memorial landscape and treat all of the se statues as the same thing. Theyre not the same thing. Lee and jackson i would put together among the five major confederaterelated statues or monuments in charlottesville. They came much later. I dont even see them as confederate monuments. Those are much later. The people who spearheaded putting them up, one individual basically paid for them, a wealthy individual who put his stamp on charlottesville in many ways. There were three early ones. They are what i would call confederate monuments. The impetus came from the confederate generation. I think there were different purposes behind them. All of which are related to the confederacy, of course. Dont misunderstand what im saying. As liz said, you cannot separate. There are people who try to separate the consent separate the confederacy from the institution of slavery. They really should just stop and spend their time doing Something Else because the two are inextricably linked and all you need to do is read what the confederate generation said it was up to. It was to uphold the slaveholding republic beyond the reach of threatening people as such as Abraham Lincoln and william seward. But having said that, i think its important to approach the memorial landscape with an understanding that its more complex than reducing it to a simple it is either people or evil or people not evil proposition. I think its more complicated than that. But ill just reiterate that i think its a local issue. Its a statue by statue issue that should be settled by the people who live in those places and not by people who live somewhere else. And in the end, charlottesville decided to take them down. Theres been litigation in virginia. It involves the state legislature because of the law saying you cannot remove war memorials. They argued about whether these are war memorials. The decision is yes. The legislature has changed. It has gone from republican stands and it has gone from republican hands to democratic hands. I would be stunned if they dont address this quickly. Then the bulb will be back in then the ball will be back in charlottesvilles court, and at that point, probably, lee and jackson will come down. Not sure, but i think thats what will happen. But i think its appropriate its settled in charlottesville. I think it would be an appropriate that its settled on an ad hoc basis. I dont see any National Search and dealto pursue this with it. The interest in these statues spikes. Ive seen it throughout my life. When i was a graduate student at the university of texas, ill stop just in a minute. There are a group of statues at one plaza at the university of texas that were funded by a confederate veteran named George Littlefield and there were statues of Jefferson Davis and of robert e lee along this one part of the campus. And those have become an issue. It flares up periodically and sort of dies down and flares up again. The arguments are always pretty much the same on the two sides, either in favor or against. In austin, those have come down now. Davis is down, lee is gone, and davis anyway is in a museum, contextualized there as both edna and liz said they were in favor of doing. Harold i want to add some context about the museum alternative, because i think its unrealistic. Gary totally unrealistic. Harold we know that in richmond, the director of the multimuseum said that she does not want the burden of caring for the statues should they ever be should it ever be proposed that they be transferred to the museum. But the second reason is really a matter of scale and the physicality of the statues. The lee, maybe not so much the davis, which is probably not worth preserving aesthetically, the lee and the jackson and the steward were meant to be seen from way down. What that means is that the artists who made them raked them in a way that they would look human or the animals would look alive from 100 feet below. If you put them at eye level with contextualization, they will look grotesque and they will look cartoonish and, artistically, its a mess. So i dont really believe the museum alternative will work. Private property, i mean, its unrealistic maybe. So, i think we should face the fact that these things are going to be pulverized or stored away, and thats a legitimate alternative, as well, if the contextualization alternative, which edna, you and i were discussing two years ago as a potential, but i understand the evolution of thought on it. Edna they cant be put in a park or something. Harold is anyone going to raise the money to build a pedestal or will they move the pedestal . Wants the burden of putting Stonewall Jackson statue in the park if its already on the street . Edna the point you raise, harold, also speaks to this option, potentially onsite contextualization. I think i agree the larger statues, finding a home is unlikely and if it has to be pulverized, so be it if there are no takers. That would be unavoidable. But the same scale of this also makes it difficult to imagine moving them also makes it difficult to imagine contextualizing them on site. It was sized and so on. Its hard to imagine what you can do to balance out that and lets be very clear about the fact that the location of the statues and the size of the statues was meant to send an unmistakable message to africanamericans that they would not get justice in the court houses in front of which the confederate soldiers stood. They were not welcome in the public spaces downtown, in this case, the charlottesville neighborhood, where literally, africanamericans have been driven out of. These were reflections of the power structures that put them up and they had very overtly political messages that were unmistakable to people at the time. Harold i want to go to gary for a minute because id like to back up and try to contextualize, or at least put in historical context, the motivation, the period, the wealth, and really the evolution of memory, how one wonders did confederate heroes, who were raitors to thend t United States, become national paragons . Was it all wealth . And what was the political culture that proved so welcoming to these memorializations . And i know there were several periods of that. Gary there is a powerful reconciliationist dimension to the memory of the civil war. Theres a statue in front of the courthouse, a few dozen yards from the Stonewall Jackson near the courthouse. Its flanked by two napoleons. And those napoleons were donated to the city of charlottesville by the United States government to be put on either side of the monument in front of the courthouse. Its a perfect way to talk with, and i will again put on my pedagogical hat here and talk about how these landscapes can be used to teach about memory. Its a wonderful way to show how two m