Via chat. Kyle good morning, everyone. Thanks for joining us on this new program were trying out. We are having a morning conversation over coffee. Im kyle dalton, membership and development coordinator. Jake im jake wynn. I am the director of interpretation for the National Museum of civil war medicine. And i am in washington, d. C. Kyle and im in frederick, maryland. We are happy to have you joining us bright and early. Today, we are talking about coffee. Ive got my cup of joe right here in my appropriately branded mug. I see you got yours. Jake im supporting james Mason George Mason university today. Kyle you support education. So my coffee, you can see a here, its really tasty. If you havent tried it, give it a shot. I made it with my french press with filtered water. Fresh ground is best because that releases the flavors. If you buy Ground Coffee, Ground Coffee loses its flavor. As soon as you grind it, it starts losing the flavor, so youve got to get the whole been, grind it yourself, and then we do the fresh pressed. Jake, what are you drinking . Jake ive been a bad boy this morning. Im not Drinking Coffee that i ground myself. I am having a cup of folgers made on a pour over. To boot, its decaf. If you saw the post yesterday where i said tune into caffeinated history, i was lying to you. Kyle were not going to get hit with false advertising. Jake if you are tuning in from maine and maryland and shepherdstown, many other places across the country, hopefully around the world, get you all in here, as well, yeah, i have proven myself to be a liar already at 10 00 on a monday morning, so it is going to be a long week, but thank you for tuning in with us today. Kyle is it snowing in maine . Jake according to mike he is tuning in from snowy maine. Kyle i cant see the comments. Jake ill be the comment guy. So bear with us. If you have questions, well do our best to answer for you and find you the right answer as best we can. If we are really struggling, we can drop a story or a link into our social media accounts down the line once we do a little more research. But if youre having any questions as we are going through the conversations this morning, want us to address anything coffee related, food related, i will let you know. We have a conversation with on wednesday and we will be talking about nutrition and hygiene and Civil War Soldiers. We are doing a little bit of talking about this older experience, even the civilian experience during the civil war, focused on food and the Civil War Soldiers favorite morning, afternoon, and evening beverage, coffee. They did prefer the caffeinated kind as opposed to the craft that im drinking. Kyle did they have decaf in the 1860s . Was that even an option . Jake the confederates did, but they werent Drinking Coffee. They were grinding up sweet potatoes. We can get into that. I see you making a face. Kyle im trying to imagine that, what it would taste like. Jake George Pickett thought it was great. George pickett loved it. It might explain kyle George Pickett will forever be associated with success. Jake if your two notable things for the civil war is one, the gettysburg debacle, which again, is not really George Picketts fault. What is his fault is the shad bake. But down at shoot, the battle, april 1, 1865, down in virginia. Somebody in the comments can help me out with the name of this battle. He misses the battle because he was eating fish they caught out of the river. Yeah, not a great look for George Pickett. But he did have beautiful ringlets, and he did enjoy his morning, not coffee, but sweet potato, ground up and made into a nice, warm liquid. Kyle i love sweet potatoes, but that sounds disgusting. Jake good thing to just kind of dive into, talk about some of the coffee substitutes. Confederates did not have access to coffee. You are importing coffee from abroad up to the 1860s. With the blockade and the famous anaconda plan that Winfield Scott is going to put in place, southern blockade, this means confederates are not going to be able to import coffee. Prices in coffee are going to shoot up, make it impossible to get your hands on. Because they can get their hands on her and they want something that kind of reminds them of coffee, they are going to be grinding up. Thank you, battle of five forks. Kyle eating fish. Jake instead of commanding his troops. George pickett, may he rest in peace. Kyle it was 150 years ago. [laughter] jake but yeah, so confederates are really using anything they can get their hands onto grind up. Some of that is pretty nasty. Sweet potatoes, corn is another one. Roasted corn ground down. Kyle wouldnt that just be corn grits . Jake yeah, but made in the same way you would make coffee. So you would grind it up and then heated and then you are and then yeah, youre making a face. Heres the worst one. Acorns. Kyle actually, that doesnt sound too bad. Jake youre crazy. That sounds terrible. Kyle you have to winnow it, but if you take that out, that to me, sounds fine. Jake well, i, you know, i cant. That sounds like bad taste to me. I dont know. Kyle youre the one that brought up the sweet potatoes. [laughter] jake george liked them, not me. Kyle you should tell us in the comments whether you would rather have sweet potato coffee or acorn coffee. Jake yeah, let us know. Im going to ask you a question. One of the most famous coffee additives is chicory. Have you had chicory in coffee . This is still a new orleans thing, a louisiana thing. Its still a thing down south, specifically in the louisiana, new orleans. I really enjoy it, but its a super acquired taste. But funny story, allison will kill me for telling this, but my girlfriends grandmother did, back in the 1930s, she lived for a brief time in new orleans and for years and years afterwards, she hated new orleans. She lived there for like a year. But she hated, hated chicory and in coffee. And up to unfortunately, she passed away a little ways back but up until her dying day, she said anytime new orleans came up, can you believe they put chicory in their coffee . Terrible, terrible. But i actually quite enjoyed it. Kyle i would be willing to try it. Im not willing to say i would love it because ive never had it, but i would be willing to try it. It sounds interesting. Jake it is an interesting concept, and something that is interestingly connected to the civil war and you talked about relevance to the civil war. But if you look at how taste evolves over time and thats an interesting one because it sticks with us over all of these, and chicory has been used since before the civil war. But it becomes much more common and becomes a standard part of the fair that is included up to the present day. And we love this at the museum, things you can touch and taste. We had a video last week talking about sensory history. You can find a couple videos from last week, go back and check our videos, both here on facebook, but also on youtube. If you havent subscribed to the civil war medicine youtube channel, go ahead and do that now. Sensory history is really interesting because it is that connection that we could all have to the past. You can taste, you can smell. Here is an example from new orleans, something that they were adding during the civil war that you can taste today and became part of the culture, which is pretty interesting. Kyle sounds a little bit like spam in hawaii. Now it is a big part of it. Jake there is another question. How do you feel about spam . Kyle [laughter] eh. I dont think its that great. If youre going to have a canned meat, why not just do corned beef . Jake hard disagreement here. Im a big spam advocate. I was very disappointed during the pandemic run on the grocery store, when everybody was picking up toilet paper, they were also taking spam. I couldnt find it. I was like come on, this is a national emergency. I expect to have tinned meat. And then its gone. So, i was left spamless. Not that i eat it super regularly, but i am a fan. Kyle if youre going to stock up, you might as well grab the things that are going to last. Jake i can see people talking in comments that spam needs much mustard and fry it, too. I agree. Spam sandwiches. Kyle you can fry almost anything and make it better. Jake just ask George Pickett. Kyle so, was there any difference in the way they prepared coffee in the civil war than the way we do it today . I imagine the chemical process has to be the same. Were they grinding it in different ways . Jake yeah, so any way a Civil War Soldier was getting their hands on coffee, they were consuming it. So, grinding it up, using the butt of their musket to grind it up, to make coffee, chewing on the beans or, you know i mean hey, you eat espresso beans, same concept. While these guys are on the march, you hear one of the biggest complaints. Soldiers, when they are on the march, especially a forced march, and they dont have time to stop and brew coffee is the worst time. Being woken up at 2 00 in the morning and have to go march 30 miles and youre addicted to coffee because you are tricking every day sorry, i got sirens here. You can hear it. But no, youre addicted to coffee, we five cups every day, and youre expected to get up without coffee, youre going to be chewing on those coffee beans. But yeah, they really were drinking and consuming it anyway that they could. And they werent too worried about the chemical makeup and how to best make a cup of coffee. Kyle they werent doing the fancy new mexico coffee with the french press and the filtered water. Jake no, thats a good question, though. I have a question about your coffee. Its from new mexico . Kyle yeah. Its the pinion pine stuff. Jake im interested about this. I just read megan kate nelsons fantastic book. Kyle such a good book. Jake now im wondering, where they growing that there during the civil war era . Were they drinking local brew . Kyle thats a good question. I dont know either. I dont know if they actually used it. I know the apaches were eating it. That is one of the reasons i was like, hey acorns, not a big deal. I was doing some historical programming for the city of cupertino, and we talked about the native people of the region and how they would eat acorn meal. Thats something people eat on the regular, and it seems like a flavor that wouldnt be that different from the earthy flavors of coffee. But i dont know what they were doing for coffee out there. I know supply lines were really thin for both sides. Jake yeah. There is another great book out there about westward trying to remember i think the book from npr, he wrote about about john fremont. Kyle freon . Jake no, john fremont, the explorer. Before the civil war, at one point, they were crossing the river and the entire supply, you have hundreds of pounds of coffee, and they lost all of their coffee. Kyle thats another interesting point. You mentioned the confederates largely didnt have access to coffee. They were trying to rely on this other stuff. Under extreme circumstances, northern troops arent getting it either. Do you have accounts of soldiers experiencing withdrawal from caffeine . It sounds like this is an important part of their diet. Its their favorite drink, you said. Jake yeah, its interesting. I dont have specific ones here, but when you look at accounts of soldiers and you can see when theyre miserable when they dont have coffee. They write about that. This is a good question. Im not sure how much they made the connection of coffee being a drug. There is the most commonly used drug in america is coffee. Im not sure how much they were aware of that. These are not chemists by and large serving in these armies. Kyle i was doing the research on opioid addiction crisis after the war. Theres this one historian who argued addiction didnt exist because they didnt understand addiction, which is a bad argument, but it does get to even the chemists dont understand this isnt a moral failing. This is a chemical imbalance. Jake right, and thats an important thing. I will say, from reading many thousands of accounts of Civil War Soldiers, both from working at the museum and also privately and in my personal life, you know, you can definitely tell the difference. And people will note in their diaries that they didnt have coffee, especially those northern soldiers. We do have a great question here from the comments that i think this is a good time to address this. Paul says, what is the difference in miles per day a regiment could march with caffeine versus without . I will say right off the bat, i dont know the answer to this, but this is something kyle and i, especially kyle, has been working on doing a kind of march, a test march, versus soldiers back in the day in the civil war versus soldiers marching today. Do you want to talk about that . I know its on hiatus. As is everything. Kyle yeah, the idea is working with the u. S. Marine corps historical company, which is a semiofficial part of the marine corps, going to manassas around the anniversary, if not on the anniversary of the battle, and recreating a route that the marines took. There was a regiment of marines that fought at manassas, famously. And we wanted to get soldiers in both civil war, uniform, gear, water, all things they would have been carrying in battle, and then we wanted to get modern soldiers in modern combat load and have them recreate the route together, running when they were running, firing when they were firing, or at least mocking that. Im not sure. And then afterward, checking that out, seeing what is there their hydration level, which we already know is going to be vastly different between the modern and civil war. How many calories did they burn . Heart rate, that kind of thing, and then drawing conclusions about what effects combat load has between the civil war and today. There are some snags we hit, obviously the pandemic being the main one. It is not going to happen this year. It might happen next year. There are legal and medical concerns, like the hydration of Civil War Soldiers was really low. You see in civil war accounts about these Wounded Soldiers begging for water. I remember it was because of lead poisoning, which is total bull. They were not getting enough water. They were wearing wool in july in virginia and they are carrying a single canteen of water. So, that is actually dangerous, even to a very fit twentysomething marine running around in wool, running around is a dangerous thing. We need to be careful. Understandably, the marine corps has concerns about that. Hopefully this will go forward. If we dont do it with the marine corps next july, i think were going to do something similar. We could recreate the route around South Mountain or maybe a winter skirmish or something. But i think it is a project that is worth looking into, and i think caffeine is going to be something to take into account because some of these guys are heavily dosing with coffee. Jake i think i saw a figure that it was on the order of the average soldier consumes 36 pounds of coffee a year. How does that compare to today . Jake thats a great question. Im not sure what average americans, but i can use the google machine to see if we can find the answer here. But i know this is something theres a lot of great articles about this progression of coffee usage from the civil war in the army and military through the present day. Coffee, since the civil war, has always had this place of love with the u. S. Military, just because ever since Andrew Jackson banned the whiskey ration. We can thank Andrew Jackson for this. Kyle we can go even further back to the revolution. Jake yes. Take us there, kyle. Take us there. Kyle i was just telling you about this earlier today. Theres a case in quebec, the siege of quebec, 1776, where an american soldier was wounded, captured by the british, and the soldier says you need to drink tea. You need this stimulant or you will die. And he says no, i will not drink tea, and he dies. Thats symptomatic of this shift, this cultural shift from tea to coffee. Thats where you see it explode into american society. It had been there before. There were coffeehouses. There is a legal designation that separates the coffeehouse from the tavern. The coffeehouse, you dont need rooms available. But it doesnt become the major cultural force that it is until the revolution, and that continues into the 19th century. So the siege of civil war seeds of civil war addiction to coffee begins in the 1700s. Jake i wasnt able to find a specific number for how many pounds American Consumers consume per year. Thats what im finding on the internet, we know the most reliable source of information that exists. Kyle thats a simple google search. Thats all you need. Jake exactly, exactly. There was another i think i lost the comment now. Another comment. Oh, good old emily hebner commenting, bringing one of the highlights that the concept of coffee as a drug may have existed at the time and that quakers told people to stay away from coffee, because you are all feeling all the emotions, feeling all the feelings hyped up on coffee. I wanted to go back to paul to answer the question about the march. Sorry we dont have a specific answer for you. Sorry i like both decaf and spam. Im realizing doing these live streams more and more people are going to hate me everyday. Kyle anybody commented on sweet potato versus acorn . Jake there was a whole thread going on about this. Drew says i need to switch to pork roll. I agree. Pork roll is amazing. If i lived in new jersey, i would probably eat it everyday. Well have to do a scientific tabulation. Our poll of sweet potato versus acorn . Kyle yeah, which one would be the Better Coffee . I think we could put that into a fancy graphic, share on our social media. Jake there will be many gifs, jiffs not gifs, another reason people will hate me. Kyle emilys comment about it gets me wondering about the number of stimulants Civil War Soldiers are interested in, tobacco, coffee alcohol can be a stimulant, initially anyway. They are eating and smoking and drinking a lot, all these. So, do we know does that affect their sleep pattern . Is there research on that . I wouldnt imagine there would be, but maybe. Jake i havent come across anything about sleep patterns. Its important to remember just how active these soldiers are all the time, even in camp. They are out drilling, procuring firewood. Even when they are not on the march, they are still busy. I h