Transcripts For CSPAN3 Stalins Correspondence With Roosevelt

Transcripts For CSPAN3 Stalins Correspondence With Roosevelt Churchill 20240712

Wellthumbed on my shelf. I have assigned it to hundreds, maybe thousands of undergraduates over the years, one of the best books of historywriting ive ever read. His most recent book and the one on which he will be speaking tonight is the kremlin letters stalins wartime correspondence with churchill and roosevelt. From 2018. He collaborated on this book with professor vladimir and im sure will have some more information on that. The book includes the principle messages between the big three, and its not so much of a commentary that provides an analytical narrative as a triangular relationship throughout the war. A book of correspondence with letters from one to the other is very valuable, but it is the commentary, i think, that really sets it apart. It is based on a wide array of material from russian, british, and american sources. I might also add a few things, professor reynolds won a prize for history in 2004, was elected a fellow of the British Academy in 2005. We have been fortunate to have him speak here at our International Conference in 2018. Without further ado, i give you David Reynolds. [applause] David Reynolds ladies and gentlemen, it is a pleasure to be here. I first came to see the museum in the days of stephen ambrose, when it was on lakeshore and my visit in 2018 showed me just how it has changed and developed in amazing ways since then, and i take my hats off to everyone involved in this very impressive, very amazing enterprise. Im very glad to be sorry, am i a little too close to the mic . Im very glad to be speaking here. Im very glad to be speaking here today and not on monday. [laughter] David Reynolds i was talking to my son over the weekend, and i said i was coming to new orleans to give a lecture, and i was very gratified when he was really interested to know. He said dad, when exactly are you speaking . And i said, wednesday the 15th of january. And he said, if you were speaking on monday the 13th of january, you wouldnt have had a Single Person in the audience. [laughter] and i said thanks, jim. Anyway, he got me up to speed on the game, that kind of thing. Tonight, im going to talk about another joe. Barrow, but, or joe uncle joe, uncle joe stalin. Its interesting that roosevelt and churchill had that kind of vuncular until are a name for a mass murderer. Thats part of what i want to talk about this evening. Rob mentioned that the book is a collaborative piece of work. Vladimir is a professor in moscow at the institute of international relations. Weve known each other for about 20 years. This is a project we worked on closely together, but weve done at other things over the years. Hes a historian who is someone i greatly respect, a man who is a genuine historian. There are some in russia that are hacks, it has to be said, there are hacks in britain and america as well. But what was interesting in doing this project was that working through this material, we worked through it as historians, we talked about it, we had scholarly disagreements, but there was never anything really we were unhappy with about what we put in the book. And at a time when our countries are not on the best of relations politically, we discovered that scholars can talk across the barriers in politics and political life. So, the kremlin letters. Lets see, right. Ill get my clicker out. Lets just think about this relationship between these three men. It was one of the most important alliances in history. Yet, they only had two weeks together as a big three in nearly four years. Churchill, roosevelt in stalin met as a threesome for the first time in november of 1943. They also met at yalta in february, 1945. You can see the difference, particularly in Franklin Roosevelt to many people. Who were at yalta, a dying president. Now, churchill had another couple of weeks in moscow, he visited in august, 1942. There he is. He went again in october, 1944. Thats the famous, notorious agreement that he signed. So, two more weeks. Churchill travel around a great deal. He was, if you like, the intermediary between a soviet leader that didnt travel much, didnt like to travel, and an american president from traveling was extremely difficult because he was a paraplegic. So, i think churchill traveled about 107,000 miles during the war, and that wasnt business class. That was in converted bombers where you had to put on an oxygen mask if you went over 10,000 feet. On one occasion, that picture of the big three of them was there, somebody said that stalin, churchill, and he looked like the holy trinity. When this reached stalin, he said, well, if we are the holy trinity, churchill is holy ghost because he flies around so much. A mass murderer with a good sense of humor. So, these three didnt do facetime. They were penpals. They corresponded. We reckon probably 682 messages between the 22nd of june, 1941, and the 12 of april, 1945 when Franklin Roosevelt died. And what i want to talk about tonight is a little bit about what we learn about these three men and their relationships. If i do talk like this to an audience of High School Students or College Students, at this point, i have to stop and i have to explain what a letter is. [laughter] looking at this audience, i think you probably know what a letter is. But ive met some College Students who quite happily said, ive never written a letter in my life. They just do social media and so on. Tweeting and whatever. Believe some politicians do a lot of that as well. But we wont get into that. What is striking about this is that it is a relationship that they build up through writing letters. And if you think about the way you write letters to people or have done in the past and how you get to know people, its not an easy way to get to know somebody. And in war times, this was particularly difficult because it was a complex process. You started with a draft, the draft to be discussed at length with in washington, within the british capital, between stalin and his aides. Agreed text is drawn up, it then has to be encrypted because you dont want the germans to read it. You then send it, and that is not simple. A lot of american messages, initially, they used a code that was easily broken. In the end, he used the Navy Department because that was less easy to break. Some of the messages were sent as a letter, delivered by the vip. Then at the other end, they got to be decrypted, they got to be translated into the other languages, and then they are delivered. So, its quite possible that in that process, as churchill once said, the tone of the original was often lost in the process of translation, lost in translation. But each of these three leaders had a distinctive voice, and asked what i want to mention for a moment and explain. And its a voice rooted in the character of these three men, so let me just described them briefly, and if you like, somewhat irreverently with apologies to emma. Here is winston churchill, if you describe him in modern american terminology, you would probably say he was a high school dropout. As somebody who didnt make it to school, who learned to live, learn to think, learned to be a man in the army, and developed a profound sense of history from that army service, a profound sense of writing which is then how he got through journalism into politics. Here he is as a world leader, but always a man of words. More about that in a moment. Theres Franklin Roosevelt, Vice President ial candidate before the age of 40. Unsuccessfully in the 1920 election, but clearly a coming man. Then, struck down by polio, and one of the rare pictures of him in a wheelchair showing his infirmity, something that the press, as you know, covered up in most of his life. This was a man that was put, there was nothing really below the waist. In man who had his own struggles to overcome. And who was still able, despite that, to offer inspiring wartime leadership. And then stalin. There is a fairly typical propaganda poster of the 1930s. The farsighted leader of his people, there are some mugshots from his diaries reminding us that this was a man who, for nearly 20 years, was on the run from various authorities, a terrorist, a petty criminal, a bank robber, who, nevertheless, made himself into the leader of one of the most powerful countries in the world, a man who made a career out of being underestimated. So, three very different men. Who found themselves thrown together in the leadership of one of the most important alliances in history. So, how did they get on . How did they use these messages . Churchill was, as i said, a man of words. A man who wrote naturally, who talked naturally. He was the most verbose of the three. A man who wrote stalin long inquisitions about policy, and interesting stories about the war. He understood that stalin was a military man, so the messages are often full of what happened in north africa, the latest bombing raids on germany, whatever, and very detailed reports of dday, getting stalin a sense of color and military detail. Stalin is also a man of words, but more terse, doesnt write at such length. Very businesslike. That was part of his character. If you met him, he would be usually sitting at a table, he would give a presentation and he would just be doodling away. And then he would ask a question, he would make a response. He didnt make eye contact, he looked slightly to one side of you, but the answer was quite direct, sometimes very rude, but at least there was a very real sense that you connected. You said something, he responded. This was a man you can do business with, and that was quite striking. What stalin also understood, i think in a way that neither roosevelt nor churchill understood, the power of silence. One of the things when writing the book was the way that simply stalin was stopped communicating for several weeks. Even if there were urgent messages roosevelt or churchill, his usual excuse was that i am at the front. Actually, he wasnt, he was a coward, he didnt go near the front. But that meant i am immersed in the war strategy and i am not going to answer you, im not going to deal with you. And that create anxiety in london and washington. Stalin understood when to talk and when not to. And here he is, the editorinchief, as i put it. The men who drafted many of the messages, and then stalin edited them. That what is particularly striking, a blue crayon, he rewrote whole section of the message about africa. And what interesting, and it comes out in the book, was the way in which stalin, from pretty much zero, learned. He was a man who spent pretty much all of his career dealing with russian politics and then suddenly it matters that he is dealing with the leaders from the outside world. Indeed, they are now paying attention to him and he has to get used to have to deal with that. And its very striking that in the autumn of 1941, when the red army is being pushed back, surrendering in tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, and the germans move through moscow, stalin panicked, he sends messages saying you must launch a second front, we need something in france, something that will distract the germans, 30 or 40 german divisions. Churchill hasnt got 30 or 40 combatready divisions in the whole british army. The idea that hes going to throw them into some Suicide Mission to help a cause that doesnt look particularly hopeful in 1941, is unlikely, to say the least. And stalins messages get more angry, more intemperate, to the point where churchill is furious and one of them, and tell the ambassador in london this very directly. The ambassador makes it clear to stalin that some kind of apology is needed, he has gone too far. Stalin is not a man who does apologies. What he does instead, probably on suggestion, is he sends churchill in birthday card. Again, im slightly exaggerated. In birthday telegram. Formally congratulating you on your birthday from the bottom of my heart, wish you strength and health which are so necessary for the victory over the enemy of mankind, hitlerism. Accept my best wishes. Stalin. That complete change of mood is one stalin got better at over time. He was a man that could change the weather. What is striking is here is a committed bolshevik corresponded with a famous and t bolshevik bolshevik and they exchanged greetings throughout the war. Stalins birthday is in december. Churchill reciprocates, and they keep doing it. Franklin roosevelt doesnt get in on the act until very near the end. It is striking but it is an example of stalin learning to play diplomacy. What about roosevelt . What is striking is the messages between churchill and stalin are nearly double the messages that are sent between stalin and Franklin Roosevelt. Roosevelt mostly tweaks the drafts of others area he is not as involved in the writing as churchill or stalin is. He is trying to use significant people to get maximum quality time with stalin. Roosevelt, who cant travel, uses others. He used eleanor through the 1930s to get a sense of the pulse of america. He uses people like Harry Hopkins and harriman. There is a picture of hopkins who goes to moscow in july 1941, soon after the german invasion, to figure out if the russians are going to survive. Hopkins doesnt go near the front. His judgment about soviet survival is based on meeting stalin, talking to stalin. There is a detailed letter back from hopkins about the willpower of stalin, the command of this man. Later in the war, roosevelt uses joseph davis who had been the American Ambassador in the 1930s, to go to stalin and propose a meeting between the two of them behind churchills back. Churchill is hurt when he found out roosevelt has done this. He has been to moscow to meet stalin, but the idea of roosevelt doing this is without without discussing it with churchill to churchill it is a sign that the mood and relationship was changing. Their relationship was changing. Roosevelt wants to meet. And he has an enormous confidence in his powers of persuasion. This is what he writes in march 1942. I know you will not mind my being brutally frank when i think i can handle stalin better than your Foreign Office or my state department. Stalin hates the guts of your top people. He thinks he likes me better and i hope you will continue to do so. It is remarkable letter for a man who has exchanged perhaps half a dozen messages with stalin and never met the guy. I can handle stalin. But it is also in its own way churchills philosophy as well. Churchill has a more divided minds about dealing with the russians. He never has abandoned his detestation of communism and that is the defining compass of his political life from the 1920s onward. There are many examples in favor of churchill, churchills fears about what might happen in europe at the end of the war. So he says it would be a measureless disaster if russian barbarism overlaid the culture and independence of the ancient states of europe. But he also says if only stalin and i could meet once a week, there would be no trouble at all we get on like a house on fire. He said that to an old friend a few weeks after the tehran conference. It is a remarkable comment to make. And it reflects churchills sense that like it or not, you have to deal with the russians in this war. Because the common enemy is nazi germany. And when his private secretary chides or teases churchill about the way in which he speaking out in support of the russians, churchill looks at him and says, if hitler invaded hell, i would at least make a favorable reference to the devil in the house of commons. Those are the priorities. But he, like Franklin Roosevelt, does feel the magnetism of this little man, stalin, who has a good sense of humor as well, quite dry. I mentioned the one about the holy ghost. At tehran, they talk about the way europe is going to the left during the war politically. And churchill says well, it is not necessarily going red. It is going pink. When that is translated to stalin, he says pink is a sign of good health. So there is fascination with this person. Churchills way of handling the variety of correspondence he gets from the kremlin, sometimes very cordial, sometimes abusive. Are you a coward . What is going on . The notion of two stalins. There we are. This is a message that he writes to the foreign secretary and after he has had two contrasting messages on the same day, and he says stalin s two telegrams to me of the 15th emphasize the feeling which has been growing in my mind for some time there are two forces to be reckoned with in russia. Stalin himself, personally cordial to me. Stalin in council, a grim thing which he and we have to reckon with. Stalin himself is cordial to me and stalin in council with the grim behind him. On a human level, the end i get on. The nasty messages are because stalin has to deal with dark forces in the kremlin. The party bosses, the army, whatever it is. Now historians emphasize that stalin ran a team. He knew how to run a group of people. But the team had no doubt who was the boss. The idea that somehow stalin is beholden to other people is one that we would now find completely bizarre and not corresponding to the evidence at all. But it was the way that churchill in particular but also other americans tried to make sense of the mixed noises coming from the kremlin. You have to think back. I mentioned letters and social media. The amount of information in those days one had about russia and how it worked was totally different from what american observers in london would know about the political milieu, or British Service would write back to the Foreign Office. You had to capture the straws in the wind. This was the best way you could make sense of it. Here is the ally, a country you have to get on with. It is difficult to understand the politics and the policies. But for churchill and roosevelt, this strange little man is your hope that if you like, he is the moderate against the dark forces. I think that can only be understood in the context of the basic ignorance of what is going on in russia and the necessity of working with stalin. So im making a sound like a very pragmatic, very functional kind of relationship. But what was striking is the times when flashes of real human wounds come through. An example of this is after dday. Stalin has been demanding dday for three years by time and has happened. He has been rude about why the british in particular and the americans are mounting this. He never understands the global war the western allies are engaged in. The question is why are you not crossing the channel . So when the i

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