Introduction and introduce our wonderful guests tonight. Lindsay chervinsky is a white house historian at the White House Historical association. She is the author of the new book the cabinet George Washington and the creation of an american institution. She is widely published. I had the great pleasure of interviewing her recently on a podcast, and i cannot wait to share her work and her insights with you. Lindsay, welcome to americas town hall. Lindsay thank you so much for having me. Jeffrey and edward larson, the hugh and hazel darling chair of law in University History professor at pepperdine university. He is a recipient of the Pulitzer Prize in history. He is the coauthor of 14 books, several of them on George Washington and the founders, and his newest book is franklin and washington the founding partnership. It is wonderful to welcome you back to the National Constitution center. Edward thank you so much for having me back, even if only virtually. Jeffrey it is just great. I am so eager to learn from both of you and with both of you, in the spirit of louis brandeis. Come, let us reason together. Let the learning begin. Ed, let us begin with you, because you have this powerful pairing of the two founders you consider the first among the founders, washington and franklin. You note they are labeled first and second in the most famous portrait of the Constitutional Convention and are often considered foremost by their contemporaries. You developed so many parallels among them, including their shared support for strong Central Government. The friendship they cultivated during the battles of the french and indian war and their opposition to the stamp acts and during the colonial era and the Constitutional Convention, you also noted a shared quality in both of their characters. That is their devotion to a roman, almost stoic conception of virtue. Both said in different ways that a government cannot succeed without a virtuous people who believe that happiness is impossible without virtue, and virtue is necessary for a successful government. And they got that from stoic sources, franklin read pythagoras golden rule, and was an avid reader of socrates. Washingtons favorite play was cato, which he read to the troops at valley forge. The stoic concept of virtue is not familiar to our modern eras. Tell us how washington and franklin understood virtue, and why they believed it was crucial to the success of republican government . Edward first, we must realize that at the time, a continental republic was literally something new under the sun. That was the motto, something new under the sun. There wasnt any examples of an effective continental republic. And there were very few republics. Maybe in switzerland, maybe venice. There wasnt very much going on. But they could look back to ancient rome before the empire and see a republic. And they looked, they studied both men, you have to realize and remember, both were selfmade men. By the time of their death, certainly by the time of their prime, they were literally the most famous americans and the most respected americans both here and throughout the world. They had come up, especially franklin, from literally nothing, from being an indentured servant, a refugee to philadelphia, to become one of the wealthiest men in philadelphia. A true success. Washington is the same sort of success story. He was not born into everything. He inherited some, but he worked hard. And they were creating something new, and they looked over to europe and they saw a few leaders. And franklin knew a lot of those personally because he had spent time in europe, and he realized they were decadent and he looked at the people and the people were like sheep. They wanted to create something new. They were both children of the enlightenment and they wanted to create this new thing. They wanted to create a government of the people. That is what washington wrote in the draft, a government of the people. Lincoln later borrowed it, but that was from washington. And to do that and that is what franklin dreamed about, too. To do that, they believed they needed both republican virtue, as they called it, republican virtues in the people, and republican virtue in the leaders because they feared a demagogue. A person like a Patrick Henry would be their example. They feared that. They knew that aaron burr would be a later example. They feared what that would do to a country. But they also knew that people needed virtue. That is why they supported public education. Think of what franklin did to motivate public education. They knew they needed virtuous people. When they left the Constitutional Convention, on the last day of the Constitutional Convention in philadelphia, franklin gave a magnificent closing speech. In it, he said, this is not perfect. This will not last forever. He said, about the constitution. But it is the best we can have now. But this government, if the people lose virtue, it will lead to tyranny like every other type of government. In one of his first letter is after he left philadelphia, George Washington wrote much the same thing to his nephew who would later become a member of the supreme court, that this constitution will only work as long as the people have virtue and the leaders have virtue. That is what they brought to government. That is what they brought to the vision, that is what they brought to what they were trying to create. They knew how fragile a republic was. Jeffrey thank you so much for that. Lindsay, tell us more about that powerful statement that both franklin and washington believed that the republic would falter unless the people and the leaders have virtue. How did washington believe that people should cultivate the habits of virtue . Franklin famously proposed 13 virtues that all of us should follow every day, from temperance to patience from to humility. He got it from pythagoras golden virtue. He said we should put checkmarks by them. I tried it. It is quite sobering to see, actually. [laughter] but washington had circulated, although he did not write it, the famous rules for civility. It talked about how to conduct yourself. Obviously he cared a lot about this, too. What were the classical sources that inspired washington, and how did he believe people should cultivate virtue . The habits of virtue . Lindsay sure. Well, washington had a deep conviction that no person was ever fully formed, so there needed to be a constant effort to improve yourself, to improve your education, to try and master your flaws. And to really see yourself as an ever evolving person. He certainly tried to live up to these standards through selfeducation. He was an avid reader. Constantly consuming news and trying to learn new things in a variety of different fields. War, science, agriculture. He really enjoyed the theater, so he took in culture and fiction when it was recommended to him, high quality fiction like don quixote. He was trying to improve who he was from an ideological perspective, but also master what he knew to be his own shortcomings. His temper, of course, is one of his most famous examples. He worked really hard to keep his natural temper in check, with mixed results sometimes. He learned to not make rash decisions. He learned to consult with people who had more knowledge than he did. He learned to be solicitous of those in the civil government and not speak rashly to people who were his superiors. There were things he had to cultivate over a period of time, learned from his mistakes, and then tried to bring that knowledge into his next position. He believed firmly that all citizens needed to they were not necessarily going to meet standards, but everybody needed to try to continue to better themselves as a nation, as a state, as a citizen, and a republic required that sort of dedication because they had seen countless examples that power was so easy to corrupt. And it was so easy to go overboard. So you needed to have citizens that were constantly trying to better themselves and were trying to suss out their own weaknesses in order to maintain a republic. Jeffrey thanks for all that. Ed, give us a sense about whether washingtons exhortations to virtue, which he included in his farewell address, distinguished him from madison, who was more determined to have constitutional checks that would ensure a successful government even if men were not angels. Then give us a sense of the central defining moments in washingtons character leading up to the presidency. You talk about several important periods where he and franklin worked together in their opposition to the intolerable acts and stamp acts, their service on the war counsel. Their service on the constitutional congress. Highlight a few of those and describe their affect on washingtons character. Edward highlighting what lindsay just said, while she was talking i dont know if anybody could see it, but i walked back to the shelf behind me and pulled down the only book washington ever wrote. It wasnt a book then, but the rules of civility that she mentioned. At the age of 14, washington did not have great expectations. He was the third son. Back in regina, back in virginia, everything was inherited by the first son. Mount vernon was going to go to the first son. Not only was he the third son, he was the son by the second wife. So he thought he would have to make his own way. That is why he learned to survey, went out on the frontier, and franklin believed the same thing. They both believed what made America Special and different from europe is there was a frontier, that people would not be trapped and controlled by a few landowners. They could go on to the frontier, they could make their own way, they could make their own fortune. Franklin did that by experience, by leaving boston where he was trapped as an indentured servant, and making his own way. Washington too went to the frontier and began surveying land. That is the time he wrote down these maxims, and he borrowed them from a french maxim, and he wrote them down by hand. The first one is every action done in company ought to be with the same sign of respect to those that are present. Respect, that was a key one. That was number one. It goes on with all the rest. Both viewed the future as the frontier. Washington went there and learned lessons on the frontier, just as franklin did. They were in two separate colonies. By the time the french and indian war comes, franklin had already made his fortune and he moved into public service. He had been elected to the colonial legislature, and he had become the leader by sheer hard work, ability, and brilliance. He had become the leader of the opposition, the nonquaker government. Meanwhile, washington, both of his brothers had died. He inherited mount vernon, and he also inherited the leadership of the virginia militia. When the french and indian war came, the quakers had to leave the government of pennsylvania because they could not fight. And franklin became the effective governor, and was given the authority to create a militia. Because what had happened is the french and indian war was fought over what is called the forks of the ohio country, which then was western pennsylvania. The french had moved in there and built a fort there, and invaded what pennsylvania considered their own land, but also virginia did because their boundary was supposed to be the Potomac River going west. It resulted in both virginia and pennsylvania claimed what is now pittsburgh while the french were there. So the french were attacking settlers, from both pennsylvania and virginia. Franklin had to go west, leading the troops. He turns out to be really good at it. To build a line of forts and defend pennsylvania. Washington has to go west, ahead as head of the militia, and defend what is now western pennsylvania. So they started to Work Together. Both worked with braddock. Both warned him, dont do it. These native americans will cut you to slices, which they did. Famously, braddock said back to franklin, they may cut your poor colonial militia to slices, but they will not know how to beat the british army. They did, including braddock, who washington carried back and buried under the road traveled by franklins wagons. You have the two people working together then. They realized we can only win by working together. These colonies cant work independent. They have to Work Together. They also learned that you cannot trust the british. They dont care about us, they only care about themselves. So after the war, they drew a proclamation line and said you cannot settle in the west. This is what sets franklin and washington off because they thought public virtue would come by people having economic freedom, Economic Opportunity, political freedom, political opportunity, and that was the frontier. If you lose that, you lose what makes America Special. So right from the get go, they had fought for that. They thought we needed to unify. These colonies could not do it alone. So they learned together in the french and indian war the need for americans to band together. That is when franklin drew his famous cartoon, the First Political cartoon ever drawn in america, unite or die with the rattlesnake cut into pieces. This is interesting. Not was published in his paper, the pennsylvania gazette, the First Political cartoon drawn in america. If you look at the picture, what surrounds it is washingtons account of his trip west to fight the french. They are all together. So they continue to bring that knowledge that we need. Unity, we need people with Economic Opportunity and political freedom. We need virtue. And they brought all that to the revolutionary war, where washington led the troops. They were indispensable americans. Franklin proposed that he lead the troops. And franklin oversaw the work committees until he was sent to france. Then he oversaw the alliance with france. He orchestrated it, he brought it about. Then he orchestrated sending the troops. He had to work washington work with washington to know, where is the french navy needed . Where is the french army needed . Yorktown would not have happened if he had not arranged for the french navy and army, and washington brought down the american army, to capture cornwallis at yorktown. They worked hand in glove so after the revolution, after franklin comes back, he is elected governor of pennsylvania. Three terms. He is almost 80. He is older than joe biden and he gets elected back then when people lived shorter times, and he gets elected governor. And he is fabulous at the job. The state was in trouble before him. He knows how to make it work. Then of course, washington from mount vernon, franklin from his seat as governor of pennsylvania, pushed for a Constitutional Convention because they saw america collapsing without unity, without unified commerce, without a Central Government controlling the western frontier. That was so important to both of them because until you had a Central Government with the ability to raise troops and to raise funds and to project our armies, open up the frontier, what was happening was no state had an interest in protecting the frontier, and the native americans were moving back. They had retaken the forks of the ohio, they had retaken two thirds of georgia. It was these needs of opening the frontier, of maintaining the frontier, of having a Central Government controlled over Foreign Policy and a Central Government able to raise taxes and spend money for the common welfare, and also control interstate commerce. Franklin and washington, because they both had run businesses that crossed state lines, they knew that was essential to create a place where there would be a growing economy, which was central to the peoples virtue, and protect critical freedom and not have individual states go off on tangents like rhode island and georgia. This is what they brought together and what drew them together to philadelphia. When George Washington comes to philadelphia for the Constitutional Convention, the very first place he goes after dropping off his bags at Robert Morriss house was to visit franklin. They sat down under that Mulberry Tree in front of his house and discussed what they needed to do to make a more perfect union. Jeffrey that is great. You have given us so much to think about, taking them from the french and indian war all the way to the Constitutional Convention. You begin your book by describing the scene of washington deciding not to drive up to franklins house because that is where he was accompanied by enslaved people. Franklin did not approve of slavery at that point. Washington did. He thought it would give more simplicity to walk. You take all those experiences this powerful shared devotion to a strong Central Government, strong commerce power to keep the west open and ensure economic independence and the people promoting virtue. Lindsay, i would love you to give us your insights on that broad period from your remarkable and helpful perspective. You can take us through the same period. Edward didnt talk as much about the revolutionary war and exactly how franklin and washington joined together on the war counsel. Focusing on washington, bring us through the Constitutional Convention, and in your view, what were the central experiences that shaped his devotion to strong central federal power and civic virtue . Lindsay washington has to be understood as someone who has a military mindset. Most of his leadership up until the presidency, was in a military capacity. He sat in the house of burgesses, but he was not known for his oral speaking abilities. He would frequently sit back and listen to other people. Where he really took char