Transcripts For CSPAN3 Classical Music Politics In 20th Century America 20240713

Politics and music in the first half of the 20th century. He describes how music can be a tool of outreach and xenophobia, depending on the Political Climate of the era. Good afternoon. Hello, everyone. Im amanda shondra. Its my pleasure to welcome you here today for Classical Music and American Foreign relations, a complicated duet. Thank you to our members. Its your support that keeps us going. Thank you so much. Were going deep into the december before the holidays. Its a pleasure to have you. If you are not yet a member, if you are curious about our membership levels or programs, talk to me or any of our volunteers just outside the doors. You can pick up a copy of the magazine if you dont have one already. Find us online at smithsonianassociates. Org. Please take a moment to silence any mobile devices or your cellstonecel cellphones. Good to doublecheck because we have cspan in the house. Your ring tone will be saved. Thank you. Just an additional note. Our exits we have one in the back and one to your right. Today, just use the right side door. You may have noticed we have a lot going on in the ripley center. That back door is blocked. Use this door to your right as you exit. I think thats all the announcements i have for you. Again, thank you to cspan for being here today. Finally, let me tell you about our guest today. Jonathan rosenburg. He teached ees at hunter colled the City University of new york. He focuses on the history of the United States. Before receiving his ph. D. In history from harvard, he worked as a Classical Musician. He is also the author of dangerous minds, Classical Music in america from the great war to the cold war. Its available for signing and sale at the conclusion of the program. Join me in welcoming jonathan rosenburg. [ applause ] thanks. Okay. Is my microphone on . I think it is. Very good. Well, thank all for coming out this afternoon. Its a pleasure to see you here. Its nice to be here in washington. Its heartening to see theres a group of people who are interested in Classical Music and want to hear someone discuss a book on the subject. I would like to begin by asking you to ponder a couple of questions. Does art matter . What about artists . As we reflect upon American Society today, it can seem that art and the artist have very little impact on our lives. But i would like to tell you about a time it wasnt all that long ago when art and artists were extraordinarily important. Im thinking specifically about Classical Music in the United States. I would like to take you back to the streets of new york city in the spring of 1958. May of that year. 100,000 new yorkers turned up to watch a ticker tape parade honoring van clyburn. He had recently won a competition. It was held in moscow. Cheers cass indicated down on clyburn as the parade snaked up broadway. Americas newest celebrity was sitting in the back seat of an open car waving to people, blowing kisses to the crowd. Women were reaching out to try to touch him. In moscow a few weeks earlier, premiere khrushchev was an enthusiastic participant in this emerging clyburn affair. Millions of americans read about the way he playfully chatted with the young peianoist. The gave clyburn a bear hug. When he got back to the United States, clyburnmania swept the country. He was invited to the white house to meet with dwight eisenhower. It must be said, eisenhower had no interest in Classical Music. When his press secretary was asked whether clyburn would play during the visit, he said, i dont think so. And he didnt. People read accounts of clyburns every move in newspapers and magazines. There were portraits, opinion pieces, discussions of his baptist roots. There were articles on whether his victory in moscow would transform the u. S. soviet relationship. Can one imagine such a thing today . Wi would the overseas accomplishments of a Classical Musician capture the attention of the political leaders or newspapers and magazines . Would we have a ticker tape parade that would attract 100,000 delirious fans held for an artist with a gift for playing tchaikovsky . I think we know the answer to that is no. In an earlier time, a pianists triumph coulds me myr s me meme American People. Its connection to the larger culture is tenuous. Magazines offer little coverage of the goings on in the world of Classical Music. Newspapers supply little more than short reviews of concerts and recite alz. For nearly all americans, the Classical Music landscape in the United States is alien terrain. Perhaps this group is an exception to that. This wasnt always so. Classical music occupied a prom meant place not only in the cultural life but in its political life as well. To tell that story, i explore the connection between the world of Classical Music in the United States and some of the crucial International Developments of the 20th century. Over many decades i argue in the book, Classical Music achieved a degree of significance that the music had never known before and which is it surely lacks today. Of course, the question is, why did Classical Music once command such attention . From world war i through the cold war, the Classical Music Community Notice United States became entangled in international affairs. It was bound up in the two world wars that the United States fought against germany with the soviet union an important ally in world war ii. It was entwined in the emergence of italian and german fascism. It was caught up in the unending cold war. These three countries, germany, italy and the soviet union, were wellsprings of rich musical traditions and the birthplaces of distinguished musical figures. Americans had long admired both those traditions and the musicians who embodied them. It was difficult for people in the United States to separate americas relations with germany, italy and the soviet union from the music and musicians of those three lands. As a result, the Classical Music community in the United States was drawn into the swirl of International Politics and the intersection between the Music Community and unfolding overseas events supplied Classical Music with a degree of political significance that i think is now difficult to comprehend. Dangerous melodies is filled with stories about singers, conductors and composures along with the tales of the work of important musical institutions in the United States. Orchestras and Opera Companies. It also looks at how listenering understood and responded to Classical Music. A key point in the book is that over many decades, americans imbued the music with political and ideological meaning. It helped americans grapple with questions in the life of the count country. It helped them decide what was worth fighting for and why. It helped illuminate the meaning of democracy, freedom and patriotism. It supplies insight into the nature of tyranny and oppression. Classical music and the work of Classical Musicians helped americans reflect upon the countrys purpose in what was a dangerous century. What role would the United States play in the world . According to one musicologist, music is not just something, quote, nice to listen to. He writes, it is what we make it and what we make of it. People think through music, he writes. They use it to decide who they are. I would suggest to you that for many decades, the American People did a great deal of thinking through music and their reflections on Classical Music and on the work of musicians and performing institutions allowed them to achieve a deeper understanding of americas place in the world. As i conducted research for this book, i came across some striking things that i didnt expect to find, that is almost inevitable when you are doing research on a book. I really was struck by a couple of things that were utterly unexpected. The first concerns an enduring debate on the relationship between art and politics in the United States. It was a bitter debate and it pitted those who viewed Classical Music in highly nationalistic terms against those possessing a more idealistic perspective. I call them the musical nationalists and the musical universalists. The musical nationalists saw the world as a perilous place. Thef they were convinced listening to pieces by certain composers or attending performances could somehow contaminate the country or even perhaps endanger the American People. At those moments when the country felt particularly vulnerable, the musical nationalists favored banning the music of certain composures or preventing certain artists from performing in the nations concert halls and opera houses. Unlike the musical nationalists, the universalists were convinced that art transcended politics and national rivalries. They believes music could act as a unifier, a force for uplift, perhaps even a catalyst for global cooperation. The musical universalists not surprisingly saw Classical Music as a universal language which could speak to all the humanitys hopes and dreams. To many years, the debate between the musical nationalists and was in newspapers, magazines. The passion that characterized this public wrangling heightened Classical Musics political significance across the country. A couple of other things i didnt expect to find as i researched dangerous melodies. Its a book about the history of Classical Music. What i in a sense uncover ee eee two vital aspects of 20th century u. S. History. The activist around the world and its anxiety over antidemocratic regimes. Consequently, its not just a history of Classical Music in the United States, it also reveals how the United States became more assertive in World Politics in the 20th century. How the American People experienced a growing sense of distress over the threat posed by antidemocratic rulers. Mussolini, stalin, hitler. I would like now to turn to sort of the meat of the book and look at a couple of important episodes in this history that i have written. I would like to begin by turning to the First World War, which began in the summer of 1914. The u. S. Entered the war in 1917. Wars can do peculiar things to societies. Word war one was no exception. It caused unsavory attitudes to bubble to the surface of american life. The german state and its people were portrayed in barbaric terms. Germanamericans and all things german ultimately would be scorned in this country. The german language was no longer taught in schools. German books were removed from library shelves. There were book burnings in america of german language books. More trivially, sauerkraut became liberty cabbage. German measles, well, yes, liberty measles. More seriously, germans were tarred and feathered. They were beaten. A drunken mob lynched a german laborer ein a small town in illinois. German music and musicians did not escape the fury. The concert hall became a battleground. A battleground upon which ethnic animosity and patriotic aspirations would be contested. Its worth keeping in mind that in this period, late 19th and into the early 20th century, the culture of Classical Music in the United States was really quite teutonic. Rehearsals of u. S. Orchestras in this period took place in german. The majority of repertoire performed was german. Most conductors were german, a large number of musicians were german. It got drawn drawn into all of this antigerman sentiment in the country, music did. Many believe that the american war effort could be fortified by dictating who could conduct, who could perform and what could be played. Id like to turn to boston, which was the home at that time of one of the finest symphony orchestras in the United States. And it still is. The bostons music director at that time was german born and one of the most celebrated conductors. His problems began when it was alleged that he had refused to play the star spangled banner at a concert in providence, rhode island, this was october of 1917. The fact was that he was not informed of the request to play the piece. The orchestra did not have the music with them, they werent prepared to play it and it wasnt played. Things quickly spiraled downward. The muck affair became a national phenomenon. It was widely covered in the press for a considerable period of time. In philadelphia, Theodore Roosevelt told a crowd any man who refuses to play the star spangled banner should be forced to pack up and return to the country he came from. In baltimore, a boston sim gone in that concert, they were on the road doing a little tour, a symphony concert was canceled when it was feared that riot might erupt. There was no concert. A large rally was held anyway, it was head by a former politician there. Cries of kill munk rang out. It was a vicious scene and i describe it in the book. In new york, he became the target of a Toxic Campaign to keep him off the stage. The effort failed. He performed a few concerts there, they were well reviewed, there were Police Officers stationed in the concert hall. Munks fate was hardly secure though. Back in boss on the night of march 25, 1918, he was arrested. He wasnt charged with any crime, he was hauled off to the local jail and a few weeks later he would be shipped off to a fort in georgia which was a place that held german prisoners. Not necessarily war prisoners, most of these people were germans who lived in the United States. The u. S. Government labeled karl munk a dangerous enemy alien and he would spend the rest of the war in this prison camp in georgia along with several other thousand german aliens, a number of whom were musicians. The book has much more on the karl munk saga including his love affair with a young singer which became Public Knowledge after his arrest and further inflamed the situation. Still more troubling, the authorities accused karl munk of espionage. There are a number of allegations against him. He was said to have signaled german vessels at sea from a Summer Seaside cottage that he had on the main coast. There is no credible evidence to support any of these allegations. He was no spy. He was a faithless husband, but not a spy. He war, he was deport never to return to the United States. Throughout the country, german music and german musicians were the object of antigerman hatred. In new york city, in the 1917 1918 concert season, no german opera would be performed. German singers were fired. The opera house had become an extension of the battlefield. A ban was also placed on ork december tral pieces by living german pose e german composers. Some thought that was foolish. These were mainly the musical universalists. One publication said this notion of banning the music by all living german composers was absurd. After all, if strauss were to die tomorrow, his music would suddenly become inis able. How silly was that. These sorts of bans though were nationwide. The music of living german composers was a special target. Wagner operas were also banned. In pittsburgh, all german music completely was procescribed. Cincinnati had a man who was imprisoned, the same chris k. Poli prison camp of munk. He committed no crime. K. Prison camp of munk. He committed no crime. It was reported that he said antiamerican things. And several musicians were dismissed in chicago, again charged with no crimes. The chicago symphony had a very distinguished cellist, he was dismissed after he was accused of adding obscene lyrics to the star spangled banner. He also failed to stand up during a performance. He was asked why. He said i couldnt stand and continue to play my cello. The end of the war in 1918 did not mean an end to antigerman hostility in the country. I wont go in to it in detail, but the book details this goes dg goes into it in considerable detail. One year after the war, gunfire rang out on the east side of new york city when violent proceeds erupted over performances of german operand by a new opera company, that company was soon forbidden from offering new yorkers german opera. In effect there were riots on the streets of new york over this, this was a year after the end of the war. Gradually over time, over the next few year, german music would be heard again, germany had been tamed in the war and its music again soothed and inspired the American People. By the 1930s, developments in germany again aroused concern. In 1936, the most famous conductor in the country decided that he was going to step down from his post at the new York Philharmonic. The big question was who was going to replace tuesdhim. And the matter became entangled very quickly in gone affa in fo. A german conductor were atop the list. They were the most distinguished conductors in the world. When new york fiphilharmonic announced that he agreed to the job, the story received feverish National Press conference. An artist linked to the nazi regime and many people did exactly that, was an unappealing presence it say the least. People were convinced that his actions starting when hitler came to power in 1933 made him an entirely unsavory figure. He had remained in nazi germany to work under hitler. Almost immediately new York Philharmonic subscribers began canceling their sub descriptions for the following year. A Jewish Business leader called it unthinkable to appoint an official of the nazi government to lead this august musical organization. And the key question really became, to what extent was he a supporter of and complicit in the policies of nazi germany . Heartfelt letters appeared in local newspapers and other parts of the country as well. And in the New York Times, a woman said, as a member of the race which they abuse, im stunned that this sanctuary of music in america had been successfully invaded by the hoard o hoard oigs of hitler. But not everyone agreed. There were those who argued, the musical universalists, that he was not a member of the nazi party, there was some evidence that suggested his opposition to hitler. He refused at least for a time to dismiss jews from the berlin philharmonic and it was said by some that music and politics should be kept apart. Many of course rejected this notion and called him the highest musical official of a government which had relegated musical art to the gutter. Rhetoric was quite intense. Finally responding to the rancon, he withdrew saying political controversies, im not polle tesch sha politician, but it belongs to all you humanity regardless of politics. By and large the decision not to come to the United States, certainly met with a National Reaction and most publications were quite pleased that he had decided not to come, time trumpeted nazi stays home. And his fate had been sealed by the irate opposition among those who refused to support an artist whose ties to a malevolent regime were questionable at best and possibly worse than that. I will in a few minutes come back to revisit this question when something happens after world war ii which resembles this set of developments in the 1930s. About i but now id like to say a few things about the serngdcond wor war. Americans saw an effort to fortify the war effort. As a performance of the russian composition became the most sensational Classical Music story of the war year, im speaking about the countrys encounter with the 7th symphony, it happened in 1942 when it was premiered in the United States. And this makes clear how you music and politics were intertwined. The 7th symphony would receive its american premiere in a july broadcast. The nbc symphony was his orchestra. It would be heard by millions on nbc stations. It would ultimately be broadcast in short wave facilities around the world. And adding weight to the event was the fact that the symphony had been composed by an artist from the soviet union which was a crucial wartime ally. The piece meshed with the u. S. Governments desire to fortify the bond between washington and moss could yo moscow. The nbc press release noted that the piece had been composed while he was living under the flame and fire of the nazi attack and inspired by the nazi hordes. And he composed a few movements of the symphony while in lenin graduate. So july 19, 1942, the 7th received its u. S. Premiere. Leni. So july 19, 1942, the 7th received its u. S. Premiere. And heard by millions of people and ill ask the person upstairs to play an excerpt of this piece, this is the actual performance from july of 1942. So why dont we listen to a minute or so. As i said, this concert would be listened to by millions. And it was covered widely in the press. It was a sunday afternoon broadcast. And it was preceded by highly preliminary remarks that contrasted german brutality with russian heroism and american generosity. Listeners were told that the finale would, quote, hail the ultimate victory of light over darkness. The cover of Time Magazine pictured a stern face in a wartime fire marshals helmet scaring into the distance with burned out buildings in the background. This was a National Event that at i said millions were aware of, millions in a sense participated in. And the 7th symphony remained in the news after the july 1942 premiere. Why . Because toward the end of the summer and on into the fall, leading orchestras around the country gave their own premie premieres. So it was performed in boston, in cleveland, chicago, washington, minneapolis and out in california. The piece became a nationwide phenomenon. Thousands of people were listening to it in their local concert halls. The press was covering it. In cleveland, distinguished conductor said that the performance was not just one of theevents, but one of the greatest political events. The los angeles fill hphilharmo gave two performances in october. First in their auditorium, the second for thousands of soldiers at an army base. Edward g. Robinson supplied the opening remarks. If i were teaching at my college, i would have to explain who he was. I think probably many of you will recall who he was. He supplied the opening remarks and he said the following listensyours mugs. Pipe down for the big doings. And it was how he was a hero and composed the piece and l. A. Times glared yours mugs. Pipe down for the big doings. And it was how he was a hero and composed the piece and l. A. Times glareds mugs. Pipe down for the big doings. And it was how he was a hero and composed the piece and l. A. Times glared declared that they were all inspired. Even a year after, newsweek proclaimed that the whole world knew about him. Difficult to imagine today a musical piece taking on such meaning. In 1945 with the surrender of germany and japan, a new era marked by unprecedented challenges and energizing possibilities began to take shape. For the United States, this new age pointed to a fundamentally different orientation toward the world. Many musicians in the u. S. Embraced the idea that their art would be able to contribute to a more cooperative world. Despite this, controversies erupted over musicians whose commitment to humane values was seen as dubious on account of their wartime activities. Thus even after the nazi threat was gone, the prospect of certain arltis certain artists coming to american to perform cast a pall over the American Music scene. Given what naziism had perpetrated across europe, many believed that in dealing with those whose wartime behavior was suspect, there was simply no room for compromise. No aro moreover, as americans distress intensified with the fear of soviet communism, there was a tendency to equate stall lynn s ins rule with hitler. And americans were yet again forced to grapple with a crucial question. Should artists who embraced antidemocratic ideas or who consorted with toxic regimes be banished . And this issue emerged with great intensity in stormy post war debates that involved a number of people. I document this in the book and ill talk about one person here today. He was the pea ianist and sopra and conductor. Their ties to naziism and their plans to come to the United States to perform created a heated response among musicians, government officials and thousands of citizens who believed that their presence on u. S. Soil would contaminate American Society. As i said, i want to talk some about the controversy. In the summer of 1948, the chicago symphony, one of the best orchestras in the country at that time and still, invited him to become its coffin did ukts tore f conductor for the 1949 50 season. The belief that his activities were inseparabledid conductor for the 1949 50 season. The belief that his activities were inseparable would generate an impassioned response. They negotiated for uni ed fod time to get the par tick cuellars of the deal right. But now the public began to weigh in, particular jewish leaders and organizations. Id like you to hear some of these voices. A mrs. Pearlman who represented 1250 member families of a local chicago synagogue noted that even if he was not thought to have been a collaborator, quote, he had prostituted his art to the brutal nazi while other more principled artists fled germa s or refused to serve their nazi masters. A rabbi from the Chicago Branch of the American Jewish congress spoke out against the appointment. With respect to his contention that he had helped save jews, berman said that he had repeatedly heard war criminals who were on trial make this very claim. And he said but saving a small number of jews didnt excuse him from official active participation in a regime which murdered 6 million jews and millions of nonjews. Berman said though he could have done otherwise, he allowed the nazi musher murderers to use h their symbol of responsibility and culture. But there were other more anonymous people who weighed in. A poignant letter written from new york to the chicago symphony by a man from the bronx, he said im an american citizen. A veteran who had served in the army for three years. I want to protest against allowing this nazi follower of hitler to conduct in the United States. He was an exold enginesoldier. He claimed that figures like this had allowed hitler to kill millions including american soldiers. Musical luminaries weighed in also. Arrest they athur rubenstein wa about this performance. And he said his decision to stop performing in chicago was made out of respect for the thousands who had died fighting nazi inch and given that his international standing, he could have left germany. Rubenstein said that he refused to work with anyone who had collaborated with hitler. And like horowitz, rubenstein pilloried him for remaining in germany. As far as the claim that he protected jews, he said this is unconfirmed. The officials of the chicago symphony began to question the wisdom of this decision. Maybe it wasnt such a good idea. They communicated this. And he pushed back. He pointed out that he had been cleared by courts this berlin and vienna, and he said i even have a letter exonerating me issued by u. S. Military government. And one of his most revealing observations he contended some artists refuse to collaborate with me today only because i fought hitless in his own country instead of fighting him from abroad. Now, beyond the extraordinary claim that he had, quote, fought hitler from inside germany, he said that he had saved the lives of several jewish musicians and it is worth pointing out that there were some in the United States who spoke up on his behalf. Again, these were people who embraced the ideas of musical universalism. The most wellknown was an american born jewish violinist. He said that of all german musicians, the conductor had put up the most resistance to the nazis. He had never joined the party which was true. And he had done his best to protect jewish musicians in the berlin philharmonic. And there were others who spoke similarly. January 14, 1949, a wartime iconic photo appeared in the Chicago Daily news. He is seen bowing to the leadership in the front row. You can see the nazi hierarchy including hitler. Five days later, the newspaper published a brief story stating that he had cabled the symphony board to say that he was withdrawing being he would not be coming to chicago. Clearly the toxicity of the german ideology continued to distress many. Coming to chicago. Clearly the toxicity of the german ideology continued to distress many. The naziism had impressed itself upon the american mind. The wars end didnt many that its effect had simply evaporated. One self described jewish subscriber wrote to the Chicago Daily news in january 1949 and he was assessing the views of those who supported bringing him to chicago, assessing specifically those who said that they believed in the, quote, sanctity of art. He offered a chilling statement. A knife wielding artist will cut just as surely as that wielded by a butcher this letter writer wro wrote. It is true that he was acquitted of nazi activities after the war by an allied tribunal that investigated the actions of leading figures in germany. Regarding that verdict, it is worth highlighting that there is a great deal of commentary on this. One of the more astute writers was a New York Times journalist, delbert clark. And he wrote extensively about this. He rebuked him for his behavior. He said nazi activity was punishable under the tribunals rules. But lacking a moral sense was no crime. Now, my perspective on this for what its worth is that whatever he hoped to accomplish by remaining in hitlers germany, and he had certain things that he managed that he was accomplishing, he certainly in my view anyway had allowed a pr depraved regime to use his gifts in an attempt to achieve will jit maes legitimacy in the world. Many people rejected the idea that an artist could remain outside politics, especially when working under a regime that recognized no boundary whatsoever between art and politics. As i noted earlier, dangerous melodies details in i had a lengthy discussion of these post war debates which glon straight th demonstrate that the tants of naziism was extraordinarily difficult to remove. For many, enduring memories made reconciliation impossible. But as i suggested, there were some who were prepared to separate an artists gift from his or her relationship with naziism. These are obviously enormously difficult questions. Perhaps we can talk about them afterwards. Id like to turn now to americas post war obsession with communism which quickly swept across the landscape. Stalin died in 1953 and some leaders began to conceptualize a new approach which might create space for cultural initiatives. It is interesting to note that between 1953 and 55, the russians had increased the number of dance adance and th companies that they were sending out across the countries. And this demonstrated loss kouds effort to convince the world that the soviet union possessed a rich creative culture. And eisenhower was concerned quoting europeans had been taught that we are a race of materialists whose only diversions are golf, baseball, football and horse racing. Cultural diplomacy game one way to combat such perceptions. And orchestral tours became part of diplomacy. The first orchestra to go to the soviet union was the boston symphony in 1956, a fascinating story. It is in the book. What im going to focus on today is a new york fill hphilharmoni to the soviet union in 1959, a trip sponsored by the u. S. Government, a lengthy trip, it went across europe but wound up in the soviet union. The conductor was Leonard Bernstein. And for Leonard Bernstein, arted a politics were intertwined. He was sure that Classical Music could strengthen the bonds among people across the world. He was convinced that superb orchestra could have a sal uhe taker impact on those made insecure by the east west competition. Bernstein was a musical universalist par excellence. U. S. Government officials thought differently though. They had vow indicaed advocated nationalism. They believe that had symphony orchestras could help the United States prevail in the east west stru strugle. Policy makers were convinced that concert could employ sonic ammunition directed against itsed a ver arits itsed a adversaries. And america could do more than make big budget hollywood movies or bloated automobiles. As a result, symphony arc extors were across the world in the belief that violins and trumpets could help win the cold war. Every musician on the new York Philharmonic tour to the soviet union received a brochure 28 pages long entitled so you are going to russia. Which instructed american travelers how to prepare for the trip and once there how to behave. The pamphlet made clear that americans visiting the soviet union with were participates in a national mission. Tourists were instructed to learn relevant facts and figures, not about the soviet union, but about the u. S. The average incomes, the size of american homes, the number of american telephones and televisions. They were also it was also suggested that they bring along a glossy magazine. Why . To make soviet women envious. Those who were well prepared would know that they had done their best to spread, and i quote, the american message of goodwill. Clearly at least to me the mission had less to do with spreading goodwill than with showcasing the superiority of the american way of life. On the night of september 11th, 1950, Leonard Bernstein would conduct the orchestras farewel. Earlier that day, he had led a program that would be shown on American Television a few weeks later. And in that daytime performance before an audience, the fi philharmonic played the First Movement that we heard an excerpt of before. They played the First Movement of the 7th symphony. The first half of that lecture performance saw Leonard Bernstein comparing american and russian music. He highlighted the similarities between russians and americans by demonstrating how their music had so much in common. Russians and americans even laughed at the same kind of jokes he said, and he claimed that both countries had to continue to strengthen their relationship. There was no alternative, he believed. That was during the day on september 11th. That evening, the philharmonic played works by beethoven and the 5th symphony that night. And in attendance for that final concert were two giants of soviet culture. And the soviet government had recently reviled. In the days before the concert, a remarkable story had unfolded behind the scenes. The disgraced pastrnak was living in seclusion after being awarded the nobel prize for literature. He had accepted the award, but then he was expelled from the soviet Writers Union and soviet authorities had forced him to turn down the prize. He was living in sort of internal exile. Bernstein wanted to meet him. He invited pastrnak to the september 11th concert. Pastrnak accepted. Pastrnak then invited mr. And mrs. Bernstein to come to his place and they spoke about art and politics and music and all sorts of things. On the night of september 11th, that same evening, at the thrilling conclusion of the 5th symphony, the composer embraced Leonard Bernstein. Pastrnak went back stage and said to the conductor, you have taken us up to heaven. Now we must return to earth. The philharmonics visit to the soviet union was a dramatic moment in the history of cold war musical diplomacy. Leonard bernstein had articulated with great passion his belief in Classical Musics power to reshape international relations. When the orchestra returned to the United States, they came down here to perform in washington for an audience of government officials and diplomats. Bernstein gave a speech at the National Press club. It reflected i think his extraordinary idealism. If military strength is a nations right arm he said, culture is its left arm closer to the heart. You can always touch people with music. And then he linked this, linked this idea to the u. S. Soviet relationship. You cankncant argue with a g he said. Khrushchev wouldnt know a b flat if he heard one. A few weeks late erkts mirs mil the chance to enjoy the trip when it was shown on Cbs Television as part of a Ford Motor Company sponsored documentary. S it is an interesting cold war document and the only way that you can see is it in the archives. It does capture a powerful cold war episode and i discuss it at length in the book. Over many decades, Classical Music and those who performed, composed, listened to and wrote about it were drawn into and swept up by the whirlwind of americas global challenges. The music itself did not help the country overcome those challenges. Im not claiming that it did. What it did did though is it offered americans a way to reflect upon the world. Countless people over many decades fixed their ears and eyes on the activities of Classical Musician s, on the wok of composers and on the labors of hiding musical institutions like Opera Companies and great symphony orchestras. The music and work helped the nation grapple with the meaning of patriotism, of loyalty, of democracy, of freedom, of tyranny and of oppression. The world of Classical Music helped mergamericans reflect up questions of war and peace which were central to the larger matter of americas role on the international stage. As the cold war waned, as overseas threats especially those emanating from usual rop became less fearsome, Classical Music became less bound up in world affairs. As a result, the musics role in american political life largely disappeared. I would suggest that to the extent Classical Music remained meaningful, it still mattered of course to musicians and to devotees as it always had. But for the notion as a whole, Classical Music was not nearly as consequential as it had been. What dangerous melodies does is explore an era in which americans believed that the work of gifted artists and superb musical institutions was inseparable from developments unfolding across the world, a tile when ma time when 345e7b wemany were co that their very safety might hinge on the performance of a piece of music. I spent a number of years researching and writing this book and i still find it remarkable to contemplate that millions of people once believed that what happened in a concert hall or opera house was inseparable from the destiny of the United States and the wellbeing of the American People. Thank you very much. [ applause ] well do some questions thousand. And so anybody who would like to ask questions can do that. Im supposed to repeat the question and then ill do my best to answer them. Yes, maam. A fascinating subject. Im wondering what might have prompted you to write the book. Well, that is what prompted me to write the book. And you said it was a fascinating subject. Ill establish that too. Well, there are i suppose two facets of my life, make more, but two that ill divulge here today. I was a Classical Musician. I was involved in the world of Classical Music for a number of years. And that world and Classical Music as a subject has always been deeply meaningful to me. I then became a historian and particularly specifically a historian of sort of foreign relations, u. S. Foreign relations and international affairs. And i did a couple of earlier books on civil rights history which i think were interesting and maybe vaguely important books. But i wanted to figure out a way to meld these two things that i am deeply interested in and i thought about a variety of ways to do that and i began doing the research and in time i began to see how this could come together. So there is in that sense a kind of very much a personal dimension to this. Thank you. Do you think there is any greater degree or difference between the impact of Classical Music and other areas such as literature or film or paintings or things along that line, do you think Classical Music can be distinguished from those others in terms of its nationalis titi impact in. I thought you were going to say classical rather than jazz or Something Like that. Which id be happy to answer. But it is interesting because you mentioned say painting. There is a very good book on post war contemporary art and the way that the u. S. Government sought to use contemporary art after world war ii to spread an american a positive american message. So i think that it is conceivable that the name of the book is fallout shelters for the human spirit. So i think that it is possible that painting could serve that kind of purpose. But i think and im not an expert on the other things, in fact im an expert on this, i suppose, but not on the other art forms. But i think if were thinking say about literature, it is a little bit more difficult to do because literature has to be translated in to another language. People have to they have to sort of absorb it in that language. Music does whatever we think, what can be done with it, is you can just go and play it. And you can play it and people can sit there and they dont need to necessarily be trained in it, they dont need to be reading it, they can just experience it in the way that one does in a concert hall. What i would say to complicate this and perhaps distress all of you, im not sure that it was very effective. I dont think that these concerts that happened after world war ii when symphony a orchestras were sent around the world and i discuss it in the book, i dont think that the impact of those concerts was nearly what people hoped it would be. In fact i think that in the end the world wasnt changed all that much by these concerts. It is painful to admit that, wed like to think that the concerts transformed the world. I dont think they did. I think that they can tell us a lot about the world when we study it, they can tell us how people thought about the world, how people thought about adversaries and allies. But in terms of the Transformative Impact of Classical Music say after world war ii i think the impact sad to say is limited. There are those in my profession who would disagree. That is my take. I discuss it at some length in the book. That is an interesting question. Yes, sir. Can you discuss the impact or role of the other musical forms like Louie Armstrong . A question about whether i discuss other art forms, other musical forms. No, because it is a long book to begin with. But that raises interesting questions. For example, Louis Armstrong was sent by the u. S. Government into various places around the world along with other jazz artists during theed co cold war. And i think it is in its way that was a more effective way to try to transform peoples attitudes. Jazz music i think has a different impact on people or can than Classical Music. It is a more trance agrees sif kind of art form. The u. S. Sent Louis Armstrong over when the kind of music that people wanted to hear was more modern jazz and they were sending hedge over. But i do think that that is extraordinarily interesting. Ove. But i do think that that is extraordinarily interesting. There was a real hankering for american jazz and when the jazz artists were sent around the world, they did i think have an impact because it represented something distinctively american. When the u. S. Was sending classical simle gone any o l sy world, they were sending if you send a jazz group, that is distinctively american and all sorts of compelling issues dealing with race. And so that is another worthy subject for studying. It has been written about. I do not talk about it in this book which is just about Classical Music. But it is darn interesting. Sir. In 1990, the National Symphony orchestra went to moscow, First Time Since his exile. And it was an event. There were two concerts in moscow, two in linengrad and it ended as stars and stripes forever. I wonder if you have come across that. I didnt look at before firefighter i didn i didnt look at that tour. The tours i looked at were tours sponsored by the u. S. Government where the government paid the built. And im not sure did it have the government it was the Reagan Gorbachev era. And this was the peak, but many similar musical events during that late 1980s period. And i think that that would be worthy of another chapter in your next book. My next book is on jazz musicians, but that is a good suggestion. At the end of the book, i looked at the new York Philharmonics trip to north korea. I do look at that which i think was 2008 or 2007. And i also look at the trips to china by the philadelphia orchestra and the boston symphony. So i look at those. T im sure that experience would be worth knowing more about, but it is not in the book. They reflect the times. They dont change foreign policy. But if you look at that is a good point. But the rhetoric of both government officials and musicians would lead one to think that they werent trying to be trance information difference. The hope was that these were transform International Politics. Diplomacy did not change u. S. china relations. I agree with you. Thank you. Yes. Outside of the concert hall and radio blaroadcasts, classic music has also been used in hollywood movie scores. And particularly the music of wagner. And im wondering if there was any attempt to keep german music out of movies. That is a good question. Ill answer this way. I dont know about movies. But what i can say is this, and im glad to have the opportunity to address this, during world war ii in the United States, german music was played. It was welcomed. People enthused over it. There was not the same reaction to german music in the United States during the Second World War as had happened during the First World War. German music for example was wagner was performed for war bond drives during the second wor world war. So there was no proscription during the Second World War. So quwagner was quite popular i the United States during world war 2ii. And it is a striking departure from what had happened 20 years earlier. Yes. So if history is destined to repeat itself, im just curious, is this a bygone era of Classical Music and its role in the United States as well as foreign diplomacy, and if not, or if there is a way how to make this relevant today. Classical music or my book . Yes. And your subsequent chapter of how to i mean, im looking at the room here. And though i know that in Classical Music today it is not as homogenous as it once was. So how can Classical Music be used in a similar way culturally speaking if the military is the right full disclosure, im in the military. If the military is the right arm and music is the left arm, how can we bring these together. Im much better at looking at the past than predicting the future. Generally historians are not very comfortable with the idea that history is sort of a prelude to the future. Or the past is prelude to the future. I think that it is very again, i dont mean to depress everyone. Id like to say that with a couple things we could slap a few things together and Classical Music would become deeply relevant again. I dont see it happening. Maybe im naturally pessimistic. I think that there are things that have happened in the world of music generally and world of American Culture that make it very hard to imagine that Classical Music can regain the sort of significance, prominence that it had in the time that im talking about. I simply i dont see it as happening. I say this my wife is a violinist and string teacher, so i hear all the time about young people and Classical Music and string instruments. And i was involved in it a long time ago. Certainly the world has changed very much from the period covered in that book and i dont see obviously anything is possible, but it is hard for me to imagine a pathway toward the renewed relevance of Classical Music. I dont really see it happening. Im sorry to be so gloomy. That is why this is so interesting because it explained what it was like at a particular time and it seems as i said rather unfathomable. And ive tried to explain why it was that way. Recapturing it, im not sure. Yes. A Perfect Question after your gloomy question. What do you think about yoyo mas travels around the world . You dont think that that is trance 230r78 difference sformae to the world . The transformative quality or character i have the highest regard for yoyo ma and these aspirations that he has. Which are not disslar frimilar many of what i was talking about. Ive seen him give talks on this stuff and it is unbelievably compelling and moving and, you know, you want to believe that what he is doing is out there transforming the world. My response, and i do not mean to denigrate i donyoyo ma, i he reads this book, he is a remarkable musician. Is he the sort can any Classical Musician transform the w world in the way that he would like to . Im not convinced that it is possible. Anything is responsible. But im not convinced that it is possible. Leonard bernstein was a remarkable communicator. An extraordinary musician, extraordinary in every sense of the world. And he was a person, you know, who had a mission to transform the world through Classical Music. And he went on this trip in 1959 and there is another i think great episode in there when he takes the philharmonic to berlin in 1960. Shortly thereafter, the berlin wall was going up, you know, in 1956, the boston symphony went to the soviet union. And a short time there after, the soviets invaded hungary. It is very hard to again, id like to stand here the musician or the old musician in me wants to think that music can do all these things. The historian in me kind of looks at the world and says im not sure i see it happening that way. I think that it is noble that people are motivated by these dreams. I think that they should keep trying to pursue them. If you can i think this is where it is going, the world doesnt look all that peaceful to me today, but all thoethough proba more peaceful than 70 years ago. I think Classical Musics power is do this is somewhat limited. Yes, sir. Any efforts to take Classical Music to japan . Yes. Any similar efforts to take Classical Music to japan. There were certainly the u. S. Government sent orchestras to asia. Bernstein went to japan with the philharmonic in the early 60s i think it was. I dont discuss it in the book. But orchestras were sent all over the world and they were certainly sent to asia including japan. And they were received with enormous enthusiasm. So, yes, absolutely. And they were sent you know, i didnt include it in there, i included it somewhere else, the fill harmonic had an interesting trip to latin america in 1958 which Leonard Bernstein led. So while focus today on this soviet trip, orchestras were being sent all over the world in that period. Was there actual interaction between the musicians in both countries . Yes. Was there interaction between the musicians in both countries. On all of these trips, there is a great deal of and it is very moving to read these accounts, a great deal of interaction between and among the soviet musicians and American Musicians. That happened on all of the trips. In the 1956 trip with the boston symphony, the musicians got together, the soviet musicians loved the actual instruments that the americans had because they were better quality instruments and they longed for these sorts of instruments. So there was a lot of interaction among musicians. And even among American Musicians and regular people, there were Street Corner conversations and things like that. And there have been historians, some who i disagreed with a little bit over the last few years, who claim that these interactions are what is really important and we can see that in those interactions, something positive is happening. And i would agree something positive is happening. I dont think that it is something transformative though. If musicians can talk to each other or if they can talk to people on a Street Corner, there is something positive that is going on. But i think that the extent to which that is changing the world is a rather different kind of question. So, yes, there were interactions. There are so many questions id like to ask, but ill limit to one. I wonder to what extent american appreciation or relativeativrel diminutive of Music Education is even conducted in high schools anymore. Excellent question. At the end of the book, whether the education you know, the sort of decreased interest in music is somehow a consequence of education or lack or changes in education. Yes, i absolutely agree that it is. In the book as the book winds down well, in the talk i mentioned that the decoupling of Classical Music from these overseas developments was a consequence at least in part of the waning of the cold war. But youre absolutely right to suggest that if we look at American Society today and want to understandunderstand, say, w Classical Music is much less relevant than it used to be, it is not my contention it is only about things like the cold war. And i mention in the book a few things. One is, you know, lots of other forms of vernacular music emerge, punk, rock, all these other things pulling people away from it. Education is not what it used to be. Youre not exposing small children and middle School Children and high School Children to Classical Music as say i was exposed to it when i was in school. Theyre not being exposed to this at a young age and that undoubtedly will have consequences in our own time. And finally i think the distraction of sort of television and digital culture, you know, plays havoc with all sorts of things not the least clatical music. Classical music when youre a child, when youre exposed to it it requires a sort of focus, all those things i think have been devalued by digital culture. My phone is off at the moment, but you understand what i mean. Were living in a world so fundmentally different and i think Classical Music has been adversely affected by all these distracts that young people are now exposed to. Journalists from the salem New York Times will tell you they reached a larger audience today thanks to online distribution. And im wondering if Classical Musicians through spotify and various other apps, Classical Musicians and Classical Music despite the dwindling grayhaired attendance in symphony halls is not reaching a wide audience. Thats a good question whether Classical Music is reaching a broader wider audience because of Digital Technologies and the first thing i would say is that the book really is a book about the histhistory of a period, not about the present. But nevertheless i do think and i dont know the statistics because i wasnt studying sort of the contemporary state of Classical Music, but theres a lot of Classical Music out there, and it is a fact i think most of the people are on the older side at those concerts, but certainly people are listening Classical Music through various means and mechanisms. But i guess if i were to speak directly to that point with respect to the book, there may be lots of people listening to it, you know, but its not as consequential. I think that, one, the connection between great events, ethical events, events central in the life of the country and Classical Music simply is not there anymore. And while their you may have i dont know what the attendance rates are across concert halls in america, but they may be quite high. But what interested me with this book was looking at the accentrality in american life, not so much in terms of how many people are listening or in a concert because one of the things to me that was interesting is there are lots of people scattered trout this book who are not particularly interested. They were not great Classical Music lovers or devotees. Yet the music drew them in. You had thousands of soldiers rioting outside an opera house in new york city in 1919. They probably werent Classical Music lovers. They were energized and animated by the music, though, in a different sort of way. I just think if youre trying to make a living dollar and cents selling your artistic talents its pretty hard to make a living as a Classical Musician. Im no longer an expert on that, but it is an interesting thing to contemplate, certainly. Yes . I was wondering if in the course of the book you explored the investment from u. S. Government and all these programs through the First World War and the u. S. Government about the investment of the u. S. Government, right do all these programs and send the ark straws and investment just in general well, it really starts after world war ii. It starts in the 1950s, and i do document in the book the legislation that was passed, and initially it was aify Million Dollars a year in the 50s. There are laws passed, legislation doing with cultural diplomacy in 54, 55, 56 and thats when the funding begins. And the funding is really at its height during the cold war and begins to diminish and peter out as the cold war becomes more. Some of the tours become joint ventures, they become sort of private, Public Partnerships in terms of funding. But in the 50s which is really when this stuff starts, the u. S. Government, you know, they go all in, theyre able to send large numbers of symphony orchestras and other musical organizations bless you around the country for a number of years until it begins to wane in sort of the mid to late 60s and on into the 70s. Thank you. [ applause ] weeknights this month were featuring American History tv programs as a preview whats available every weekend on cspan 3. Tonight we begin with a night of lectures hosted by the university of Mary Washington in fredericksburg, virginia, with historian joanne freeman. She describes the socalled code of honor that led to dueling and describes the political strategies behind these confrontations. American history tv this week and every weekend on cspan 3. Next on American History tv, Tony Perrottet talks about his book. He examines Fidel Castros Humble Beginnings and highlights the Important Role of women and young people in the cuban revolution. The smithsonian instit