Transcripts For CSPAN3 Hearing On Recreational Use Of Federa

Morning, everyone, the committee will come to order. Happy halloween. Happy world series. Everybody stayed up late watching the game. Kind of exciting. Kind of exciting. So we are here to talk about good things, recreation, and im going to keep my comments brief because i know colleagues have been very engaged in this and a couple of you want to make some opening comments as well but we have three pieces this morning that were considering, s1665, which is the simplifying Outdoor Access for recreation act. Senator heinrich calls it the s. O. A. R. Act. I like the acronym there, pretty good. S1723, the ski area fee retention act from senator gardner. We all love skiing, or we love skiing. I cant wait. S1967, the recreation not red tape act from senator wyden. This hearing is building off one that we held in march where we focus in improving access, infrastructure and permitting to meet the increasing demands to provide highquality recreation opportunities on our federal lands. So the proposals that were looking at today are a good start in addressing those issues. Senator heinrich, senator wyden have put forward legislation to streamline and simplify the systems in place to process permits for our outfitters, guides and nonprofits for those who operate across the spectrum of federal lands. Senator gardners bill will help facilitate the private investment needed for infrastructure to meet the demands for fourseason recreation at ski areas that operate in our nations forests. All of these measures recognize the Important Role that recreation is playing in our economy. According to the bureau of economic analysis, in 2017 Outdoor Recreation accounted for 2. 2 of current dollars gdp or about 427 billion. This includes not only impact to sectors like outfitting and guiding, but all of the associated impact as well, lodging, transportation, restaurants, all the like. In my state we certainly see a big impact from recreation. In 2018 we welcomed about 1. 17 million cruise ship visitors. I think this next year were up to about 1. 3. This is in a state of about 720,000 people. So we certainly feel that impact. Its exciting but sometimes its a little bit overwhelming. At the Glacier Visitor Center in juneau, you have hundreds of people who want to get into the facility every day but the facility is designed to hold a fraction of that. Forest service is developing a master plan to respond to the increased visitation, but its a challenge. I was with senator lee this past friday. We had a field hearing out in moab and we had an opportunity to go to Arches National park and see the pressures. Everybody wants to get into the park, but how do we accommodate, how do we facilitate . Our outfitters and guides are also trying to respond to growing demand. Ski guides want to go into new areas in the National Forests and blm lands near hanes but theyre being delayed by a very lengthy and expensive Environmental Review process, lack of capacity at the agencies to process the permits. These are all things that we hear about. So what were trying to do is to ensure that our federal land managers have the resources and the flexibility needed to respond to increasing and changing demand and so, again, i appreciate the colleagues work on these very important bills. Im going to turn to senator manchin before i introduce our panel and i know that members a couple of you would like to make introductions of some who are here this morning. If i can, i would like to defer to my good friend senator wyden. He has a finance meeting coming up before i give an opening statement. Very good. Thank you senator manchin and chair murkowski, and i dont want to make this a bouquettossing contest, but not only do i want to thank you for your courtesy so i can do this and see if i can get back, but i also very much appreciate your leadership on the recreation issues, the work we try to do up here in a bipartisan way. I think we all understand every member here particularly, you know, westerners, we understand that this recreation efforts in the bills are very compatible, are clearly a boost of our quality of life in the west and for our economy and a chance to bring americans together for better health. I really appreciate this. My bill with congressman bishop, r r recreation not red tape is one that updates the policies from yesteryear because in yesteryear, recreation was not the big economic engine that it is today. So thats what our bill is all about. Thats point one. Point number two, we have an oregonian lee davis here. He knows a lot about recreation. He was responsible for the outfitter and guide permit with the most user days in the state of oregon and he also helped create an Oregon State Office of Outdoor Recreation. So, lee, im going to be running back and forth and ive had the courtesy of the chair and the ranking member, but colleagues, we are really talking to the Gold Standard when you hear from my fellow oregonian. Last point and im not interested in starting a big controversy, but i want to make sure we talk through the chair and the vice chair about this in the days ahead and that is, colleagues, we all know because we read the paper, about these wildfires that are just ravaging the west and there are a host of issues that were going to have to tackle and i just want to put two up on the boards. One of them is climate change. And i think theres some way that is we can work collaboratively on that, and second is collaboration which is what we try to stress on the ground. Thats what stewardship has been all about. And if we want to have, colleagues, wonderful places to recreate, were going to have to do something to get an update of the policies for fighting fire. Were going to lose some of those places. Madam chair, and the vice chair, look forward to working with you on both fronts and ill be back and forth. Thank you, madam chair. Thank you, senator wyden. Senator manchin . Thank you, chairman murkowski for holding the hearing and i want to thank all of you all for being here today. I commend the sponsors of the bill on todays agenda for exploring innovative ways to improve Outdoor Recreation and the businesses that support. Outdoor recreation has been a powerful economic driver in states across the country. In my home state of West Virginia is no exception. Its been wonderful. Ive seen firsthand the jobs that Outdoor Recreation economy has brought to rural areas in West Virginia. Outdoor recreation in my state now generates 2 of our Gross Domestic Product and supports 22,000 jobs. And 3 of our workforce is now employed in the Outdoor Recreational sector earning over 688 million in salaries. So this is a topic that is near and dear to my heart, as i know it is everybody here. As our Committee Reviews legislation related to Outdoor Recreation, i believe we must ensure the ideas being discussed will grow the economies of rural communities. All three bills before the committee today attempt to do that and will have impacts, i believe, in the states not only what theyre being introduced, but for all of us, especially in West Virginia if enacted. Senator gardeners bill would provide assistance to ski areas on federal land. While we will be hearing from mr. Mcguire about how this will impact the ski industry, i want to mention we have two ski areas in West Virginia that use Forest Service land. Unfortunately the third area had to close early this year and is now for sale. But it will be back up and running. I look forward to the discussion about ways we can be better partners with the ski industry. The appropriate use of revenue from fees and a fair return to the taxpayers. We also will be discussing a bill that would provide assistance to those leading backpacking trips on federal land. And senator wydens bill which proposes to establish a system of National Recreation areas. West virginia was actually home to the first National Recreation area designated in the United States in 1965. These bills all have common themes, facilitating peoples ability to enjoy public lands while supporting jobs and the local economies. Following this hearing, chairman murkowski and i will get to work with our colleagues on a recreation package to report out of this committee. The heart and soul of that package will be the same as the bills were discussing today. To not only make it easier for people to enjoy their public lands, but also grow businesses in all rural communities. Coming from alaska and West Virginia, we have firsthand experience of the importance of recreation in our states. And with that, as a basis, we have been developing additional ideas for inclusion in the forthcoming package. One of the areas that i have been exploring is how we might be able to better support gate way communities. Those are the communities that are next to the recreation destination where visitors eat and sleep before or after enjoying the sights they come to visit. There was testimony before our Committee Earlier this year about how difficult it was to establish businesses in the gateway communities. They host 55,000 riders annually but 87 of those riders are nonWest Virginians meaning that they need hotels and restaurants. Unfortunately in West Virginia, im sure in my colleague home states, it continues to be a very difficult to establish the infrastructure that is needed to accommodate increased visitation in some of these rural areas. I look forward working with chairman murkowski and my colleagues on this and many other ideas as we assemble a bipartisan recreation package in the coming weeks. With that i want to thank the witnesses and then, chairman, thank you. Thank you. Senator gardener, i know you had wanted to make introductions and perhaps briefly speak about your bill. Senator heinrich, you have a bill up here. Giving everybody an opportunity were never going to get to these guys. I was going to say, i just want to hear from our witnesses. Let me turn to senator gardener and then senator barrasso. Thank you. Thank you, madam chair, and ill be very quick. Very pleased to have before the committee a fellow coloradoan who is Vice President of Public Affairs at vale resorts. And vale resorts is headquartered in colorado where its namesake vale mountain was started in 1962 by veterans of the famed 10th Mountain Division of world war ii. Since then vale resorts has grown into a huge colorado success story, spanning 37 ski areas across three countries in the United States all linked together by its industry leading epic season pass, Available Online and around the country. Correct . Is that right . And all linked together it allows skiers and riders to access local regional destination ski resorts at a great value. Brendan, a native coloradoan, former ski instructor, former staffer and as chairman murkowski can attest to, a pretty great guy to be in the mountains with. Thank you very much to be here today and i think youve got 86 acres open at keystone right now. Wow. Thank you, senator. Thank you very much, madam chairman. Im pleased to help you welcome aaron bannon to our committee today as a witness. He and i share the hometown of wyoming. We share a love of the precious Natural Resources that wyoming has to offer. Hes spent more than a decade with the National Outdoor Leadership School where hes been extraordinary in terms of being an advocate relating to issues of Outdoor Recreation. We think about public lands and the history of this country, all of them saw the land. They arrived at the same conclusion, we need to preserve and protect and pass on these resources and allow others to enjoy them. Ive had many conversations about ways to avoid the cumbersome permitting process, so im glad hes here today. Our state of wyoming relies on recreation and tourism as a key component of our state economy. Much of the recreation occurs on public lands managed by federal agencies. Its important that we combine thoughtful evaluation of the impacts with a process that encourages access of these landscapes. I look forward to the expertise that youre going to share with the committee today and i want to congratulate you. I know on monday youll be starting work with american outdoors as the executive director. I look forward to continuing to work with you in your new role. Thank you. Thank you all. Most of you have been introduced but i will provide my welcome to each of you. Well start off with discussion here this morning with an individual who has been before the committee, chris french, deputy chief of the forest system in the u. S. Forest service and we thank you for the many, many efforts that you have made and i know youre spending a lot of attention and time on alaskarelated issues as you deal with Forest Service. But thank you for your leadership. Nikki haskett. We thank you for being here this morning and look forward to your comments. Brendan mcguire has been introduced and welcomed. It is its always good to have somebody that can be speaking with a firsthand firsthand relationship to the industry that he represents and he certainly does and we welcome you to the committee. Mr. Lee davis has been introduced by senator wyden. Were pleased that youre with us from oregon. Welcome to the committee and to mr. Aaron bannon, we appreciate what you will provide. We ask you to try to keep your comments to about five minutes. Your full statements will be included as part of the record and we will have an opportunity for questions afterwards. Im going to excuse myself for a couple of minutes and ill be back in about five. We will lead off the committee here with mr. French. Thank you. Thank you very much, madam chair, vice chair and members of the committee. I appreciate the opportunity today to talk about our views on these three bills, the recreation not red tape act, simplifying Outdoor Recreation act and the ski area fee retention act. When i glance back on my 30 years, i started as a recreation technician and now as i sit here and think about my role as deputy chief, i realize i have always had a passion for connecting people to the recreational opportunities on our public lands and its where i take my family. Senator, i ski in those resorts in West Virginia and it was hard to see that happen. You know, when i look at this, i think that anything that we can do to improve our ability to better serve our Recreation Community and our Recreation Partners and enhance those experience, connecting folks to our public lands, thats a good day. Outdoor recreation is a significant use of our forest system. The number of the visits rose from 143 million in 2009, nine years later, that was at 150 million. Recreation sustains more private sector jobs and provides the single largest similtimulus fory communities. It supports more than 148,000 full and parttime jobs most of which are in those gateway and rural communities. Opportunities and amenities are ranked as one of the primary reasons people move to rural towns and can be a leading contributor to local communities. At the Forest Service, we administer more than 30,000 recreation special use authorizations that generate nearly 2 billion to their holders. In particular, the Forest Service manages 122 ski area permits and approximately 8,000 outfitter and guide permits. They enable professionals to lead a wide range of activities on national Forest Service lands, whether its white water rafting, horseback riding, big game hunting or youth trips. For many of these activities, they represent their this represents the first introduction that many folks have to the outdoors and the outfitter and guides that they employ are Small Businesses that generate jobs and income for local communities. We also manage nearly 159,000 miles of trails, the largest Trail Network in the nation. We host over 60 of the country ski area visits and were proud to provide a vital respite as well as opportunities for boating, fishing, hunting and hiking. Usda supports the goal of these bills to improve access on National Forest system lands. The recreation not red tape act and the soar act will streamline our processes and provide a higher left of Customer Service to our public and our valued partners. The ski area fee retention act will increase Resources Available to improve the administration of and the experience on our ski areas. Outdoor recreation provides millions of americans to connect with their heritage. Were honored to serve in this vital link and values this opportunity to work with congress to improves the lives of americans through Outdoor Recreation. Thank you to the committee for the provide to provide testimony and i look forward to working together on these important bills. Thank you. Good morning. Im the acting assistant director for National Conservation lands and Outdoor Access<\/a> for recreation act. Senator heinrich calls it the s. O. A. R. Act. I like the acronym there, pretty good. S1723, the ski area fee retention act from senator gardner. We all love skiing, or we love skiing. I cant wait. S1967, the recreation not red tape act from senator wyden. This hearing is building off one that we held in march where we focus in improving access, infrastructure and permitting to meet the increasing demands to provide highquality recreation opportunities on our federal lands. So the proposals that were looking at today are a good start in addressing those issues. Senator heinrich, senator wyden have put forward legislation to streamline and simplify the systems in place to process permits for our outfitters, guides and nonprofits for those who operate across the spectrum of federal lands. Senator gardners bill will help facilitate the private investment needed for infrastructure to meet the demands for fourseason recreation at ski areas that operate in our nations forests. All of these measures recognize the Important Role<\/a> that recreation is playing in our economy. According to the bureau of economic analysis, in 2017 Outdoor Recreation<\/a> accounted for 2. 2 of current dollars gdp or about 427 billion. This includes not only impact to sectors like outfitting and guiding, but all of the associated impact as well, lodging, transportation, restaurants, all the like. In my state we certainly see a big impact from recreation. In 2018 we welcomed about 1. 17 million cruise ship visitors. I think this next year were up to about 1. 3. This is in a state of about 720,000 people. So we certainly feel that impact. Its exciting but sometimes its a little bit overwhelming. At the Glacier Visitor Center<\/a> in juneau, you have hundreds of people who want to get into the facility every day but the facility is designed to hold a fraction of that. Forest service is developing a master plan to respond to the increased visitation, but its a challenge. I was with senator lee this past friday. We had a field hearing out in moab and we had an opportunity to go to Arches National<\/a> park and see the pressures. Everybody wants to get into the park, but how do we accommodate, how do we facilitate . Our outfitters and guides are also trying to respond to growing demand. Ski guides want to go into new areas in the National Forests<\/a> and blm lands near hanes but theyre being delayed by a very lengthy and expensive Environmental Review<\/a> process, lack of capacity at the agencies to process the permits. These are all things that we hear about. So what were trying to do is to ensure that our federal land managers have the resources and the flexibility needed to respond to increasing and changing demand and so, again, i appreciate the colleagues work on these very important bills. Im going to turn to senator manchin before i introduce our panel and i know that members a couple of you would like to make introductions of some who are here this morning. If i can, i would like to defer to my good friend senator wyden. He has a finance meeting coming up before i give an opening statement. Very good. Thank you senator manchin and chair murkowski, and i dont want to make this a bouquettossing contest, but not only do i want to thank you for your courtesy so i can do this and see if i can get back, but i also very much appreciate your leadership on the recreation issues, the work we try to do up here in a bipartisan way. I think we all understand every member here particularly, you know, westerners, we understand that this recreation efforts in the bills are very compatible, are clearly a boost of our quality of life in the west and for our economy and a chance to bring americans together for better health. I really appreciate this. My bill with congressman bishop, r r recreation not red tape is one that updates the policies from yesteryear because in yesteryear, recreation was not the big economic engine that it is today. So thats what our bill is all about. Thats point one. Point number two, we have an oregonian lee davis here. He knows a lot about recreation. He was responsible for the outfitter and guide permit with the most user days in the state of oregon and he also helped create an Oregon State Office<\/a> of Outdoor Recreation<\/a>. So, lee, im going to be running back and forth and ive had the courtesy of the chair and the ranking member, but colleagues, we are really talking to the Gold Standard<\/a> when you hear from my fellow oregonian. Last point and im not interested in starting a big controversy, but i want to make sure we talk through the chair and the vice chair about this in the days ahead and that is, colleagues, we all know because we read the paper, about these wildfires that are just ravaging the west and there are a host of issues that were going to have to tackle and i just want to put two up on the boards. One of them is climate change. And i think theres some way that is we can work collaboratively on that, and second is collaboration which is what we try to stress on the ground. Thats what stewardship has been all about. And if we want to have, colleagues, wonderful places to recreate, were going to have to do something to get an update of the policies for fighting fire. Were going to lose some of those places. Madam chair, and the vice chair, look forward to working with you on both fronts and ill be back and forth. Thank you, madam chair. Thank you, senator wyden. Senator manchin . Thank you, chairman murkowski for holding the hearing and i want to thank all of you all for being here today. I commend the sponsors of the bill on todays agenda for exploring innovative ways to improve Outdoor Recreation<\/a> and the businesses that support. Outdoor recreation has been a powerful economic driver in states across the country. In my home state of West Virginia<\/a> is no exception. Its been wonderful. Ive seen firsthand the jobs that Outdoor Recreation<\/a> economy has brought to rural areas in West Virginia<\/a>. Outdoor recreation in my state now generates 2 of our Gross Domestic Product<\/a> and supports 22,000 jobs. And 3 of our workforce is now employed in the Outdoor Recreation<\/a>al sector earning over 688 million in salaries. So this is a topic that is near and dear to my heart, as i know it is everybody here. As our Committee Reviews<\/a> legislation related to Outdoor Recreation<\/a>, i believe we must ensure the ideas being discussed will grow the economies of rural communities. All three bills before the committee today attempt to do that and will have impacts, i believe, in the states not only what theyre being introduced, but for all of us, especially in West Virginia<\/a> if enacted. Senator gardeners bill would provide assistance to ski areas on federal land. While we will be hearing from mr. Mcguire about how this will impact the ski industry, i want to mention we have two ski areas in West Virginia<\/a> that use Forest Service<\/a> land. Unfortunately the third area had to close early this year and is now for sale. But it will be back up and running. I look forward to the discussion about ways we can be better partners with the ski industry. The appropriate use of revenue from fees and a fair return to the taxpayers. We also will be discussing a bill that would provide assistance to those leading backpacking trips on federal land. And senator wydens bill which proposes to establish a system of National Recreation<\/a> areas. West virginia was actually home to the first National Recreation<\/a> area designated in the United States<\/a> in 1965. These bills all have common themes, facilitating peoples ability to enjoy public lands while supporting jobs and the local economies. Following this hearing, chairman murkowski and i will get to work with our colleagues on a recreation package to report out of this committee. The heart and soul of that package will be the same as the bills were discussing today. To not only make it easier for people to enjoy their public lands, but also grow businesses in all rural communities. Coming from alaska and West Virginia<\/a>, we have firsthand experience of the importance of recreation in our states. And with that, as a basis, we have been developing additional ideas for inclusion in the forthcoming package. One of the areas that i have been exploring is how we might be able to better support gate way communities. Those are the communities that are next to the recreation destination where visitors eat and sleep before or after enjoying the sights they come to visit. There was testimony before our Committee Earlier<\/a> this year about how difficult it was to establish businesses in the gateway communities. They host 55,000 riders annually but 87 of those riders are nonWest Virginia<\/a>ns meaning that they need hotels and restaurants. Unfortunately in West Virginia<\/a>, im sure in my colleague home states, it continues to be a very difficult to establish the infrastructure that is needed to accommodate increased visitation in some of these rural areas. I look forward working with chairman murkowski and my colleagues on this and many other ideas as we assemble a bipartisan recreation package in the coming weeks. With that i want to thank the witnesses and then, chairman, thank you. Thank you. Senator gardener, i know you had wanted to make introductions and perhaps briefly speak about your bill. Senator heinrich, you have a bill up here. Giving everybody an opportunity were never going to get to these guys. I was going to say, i just want to hear from our witnesses. Let me turn to senator gardener and then senator barrasso. Thank you. Thank you, madam chair, and ill be very quick. Very pleased to have before the committee a fellow coloradoan who is Vice President<\/a> of Public Affairs<\/a> at vale resorts. And vale resorts is headquartered in colorado where its namesake vale mountain was started in 1962 by veterans of the famed 10th Mountain Division<\/a> of world war ii. Since then vale resorts has grown into a huge colorado success story, spanning 37 ski areas across three countries in the United States<\/a> all linked together by its industry leading epic season pass, Available Online<\/a> and around the country. Correct . Is that right . And all linked together it allows skiers and riders to access local regional destination ski resorts at a great value. Brendan, a native coloradoan, former ski instructor, former staffer and as chairman murkowski can attest to, a pretty great guy to be in the mountains with. Thank you very much to be here today and i think youve got 86 acres open at keystone right now. Wow. Thank you, senator. Thank you very much, madam chairman. Im pleased to help you welcome aaron bannon to our committee today as a witness. He and i share the hometown of wyoming. We share a love of the precious Natural Resources<\/a> that wyoming has to offer. Hes spent more than a decade with the National Outdoor<\/a> Leadership School<\/a> where hes been extraordinary in terms of being an advocate relating to issues of Outdoor Recreation<\/a>. We think about public lands and the history of this country, all of them saw the land. They arrived at the same conclusion, we need to preserve and protect and pass on these resources and allow others to enjoy them. Ive had many conversations about ways to avoid the cumbersome permitting process, so im glad hes here today. Our state of wyoming relies on recreation and tourism as a key component of our state economy. Much of the recreation occurs on public lands managed by federal agencies. Its important that we combine thoughtful evaluation of the impacts with a process that encourages access of these landscapes. I look forward to the expertise that youre going to share with the committee today and i want to congratulate you. I know on monday youll be starting work with american outdoors as the executive director. I look forward to continuing to work with you in your new role. Thank you. Thank you all. Most of you have been introduced but i will provide my welcome to each of you. Well start off with discussion here this morning with an individual who has been before the committee, chris french, deputy chief of the forest system in the u. S. Forest service and we thank you for the many, many efforts that you have made and i know youre spending a lot of attention and time on alaskarelated issues as you deal with Forest Service<\/a>. But thank you for your leadership. Nikki haskett. We thank you for being here this morning and look forward to your comments. Brendan mcguire has been introduced and welcomed. It is its always good to have somebody that can be speaking with a firsthand firsthand relationship to the industry that he represents and he certainly does and we welcome you to the committee. Mr. Lee davis has been introduced by senator wyden. Were pleased that youre with us from oregon. Welcome to the committee and to mr. Aaron bannon, we appreciate what you will provide. We ask you to try to keep your comments to about five minutes. Your full statements will be included as part of the record and we will have an opportunity for questions afterwards. Im going to excuse myself for a couple of minutes and ill be back in about five. We will lead off the committee here with mr. French. Thank you. Thank you very much, madam chair, vice chair and members of the committee. I appreciate the opportunity today to talk about our views on these three bills, the recreation not red tape act, simplifying Outdoor Recreation<\/a> act and the ski area fee retention act. When i glance back on my 30 years, i started as a recreation technician and now as i sit here and think about my role as deputy chief, i realize i have always had a passion for connecting people to the recreational opportunities on our public lands and its where i take my family. Senator, i ski in those resorts in West Virginia<\/a> and it was hard to see that happen. You know, when i look at this, i think that anything that we can do to improve our ability to better serve our Recreation Community<\/a> and our Recreation Partners<\/a> and enhance those experience, connecting folks to our public lands, thats a good day. Outdoor recreation is a significant use of our forest system. The number of the visits rose from 143 million in 2009, nine years later, that was at 150 million. Recreation sustains more private sector jobs and provides the single largest similtimulus fory communities. It supports more than 148,000 full and parttime jobs most of which are in those gateway and rural communities. Opportunities and amenities are ranked as one of the primary reasons people move to rural towns and can be a leading contributor to local communities. At the Forest Service<\/a>, we administer more than 30,000 recreation special use authorizations that generate nearly 2 billion to their holders. In particular, the Forest Service<\/a> manages 122 ski area permits and approximately 8,000 outfitter and guide permits. They enable professionals to lead a wide range of activities on national Forest Service<\/a> lands, whether its white water rafting, horseback riding, big game hunting or youth trips. For many of these activities, they represent their this represents the first introduction that many folks have to the outdoors and the outfitter and guides that they employ are Small Businesses<\/a> that generate jobs and income for local communities. We also manage nearly 159,000 miles of trails, the largest Trail Network<\/a> in the nation. We host over 60 of the country ski area visits and were proud to provide a vital respite as well as opportunities for boating, fishing, hunting and hiking. Usda supports the goal of these bills to improve access on National Forest<\/a> system lands. The recreation not red tape act and the soar act will streamline our processes and provide a higher left of Customer Service<\/a> to our public and our valued partners. The ski area fee retention act will increase Resources Available<\/a> to improve the administration of and the experience on our ski areas. Outdoor recreation provides millions of americans to connect with their heritage. Were honored to serve in this vital link and values this opportunity to work with congress to improves the lives of americans through Outdoor Recreation<\/a>. Thank you to the committee for the provide to provide testimony and i look forward to working together on these important bills. Thank you. Good morning. Im the acting assistant director for National Conservation<\/a> lands and Community Partners<\/a> at the bureau of Land Management<\/a>. Thank you for inviting me to testify today. These bills which amend the federal lands recreation enhancement act aimed to improve the efficiency and reduce the cost for applying for and administering special recreation permits. They also authorize single joint permits for multiagency permits. Federal Land Management<\/a> agencies oversee about 640 million surface acres including public lands managed by the blm, the National Park<\/a> service as well as the Forest Service<\/a>. These lands host a remarkable variety of recreational opportunities. Secretary burnhart is improving access to public lands and has issued a number of orders in support of this priority. Under the policy, the blm has acquired new lands such as 13,000 acres to improve access to the Black Foot River<\/a> in montana and the 3,500 acres to improve access to the wilderness area in new mexico. Much of the changes proposed in the bill is being considered today deal with special recreation permit and is their fees. Fees collected for each permit allow the federal government to implement projects that benefit visitors such as maintaining recreation sites. S1967 and s1665 align with the secretarys priorities to increase access and promote recreational opportunities on public lands. We believe that these bill haves the potential to address some longstanding challenges and we look forward to working with the sponsors and the committee to address a number of technical issues in the measures. Both bills authorize agencies to issue single joint recreation permits for trips that across agency boundaries of more than one Land Management<\/a> agency. When a single joint recreation permit is proposed, the bills authorize the designation of a lead agency for the permit. The bills also authorize agencies to delegate the enforcement authorities to the lead agency. The department has been pursuing efforts to make permitting easier and we support efforts to improve the permitting process. Americans should be able to access and enjoy their public lands with as much ease as possible. We support the goals of these provisions and would like to work with the sponsors on certain modifications. The bills provide other authorities for agencies to improve the permitting process such as expanded use of category cal exclusions and allowing permitees to return unused service days. Other provisions of the bill such as online and email notifications of permit opportunities and exceptions of the first hours of work from Cost Recovery<\/a> reflect the goals of the department and we support and appreciate the opportunity to continue working with the sponsors and the committee on these provisions. Lastly, the recreation not red tape act includes provision regarding retailing of recreational passes, encouraging veterans and Service Members<\/a> to recreate on public lands and expanding the use of volunteers. The department supports these provisions. In conclusion, we are grateful that the committee is considering legislation to make it easier for americans to enjoy their public lands. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify today. I would be happy to answer any questions you may have. You may begin. Good morning, thank you, senator, gardener for that nice introduction. Ranking member manchin, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to be here in support of s1723, the ski area recreational retention act of 2019. On behalf of vale resorts we would also like to thank senators bennett and widen for their leadership in introducing the bills and Community Members<\/a> for cosponsoring this bipartisan measure to retain ski area permit fees. We have 325 members. 122 of which operate on the National Forest<\/a> system. Vale resorts, my company that i work for, owns and operates 37 ski areas including vale mountain in colorado, stevens pass in washington, heavenly in tahoe, and vermont. It would retain a percentage of ski permit fees. Those funds would be retained so the Forest Service<\/a> has the capacity to give out permits and review projects. Ski areas work in partnership with the u. S. Forest service to deliver an Outdoor Recreation<\/a> experience that is really unmatched in the world. This Public Private<\/a> Partnership Dates<\/a> back to the 1940s and has a long history of providing benefits to all americans and providing strong returns to the u. S. Government through those fees paid for the use of the land. Over the past ten years, ski areas nationwide have averaged over 55 million visits annually. In total, the industry creates 62 billion in tourist related revenue, supports nearly a million jobs and generates nearly 5 billion in annual retail sales. Theyre typically the largest employer for the communities in which they operate. They pay for all on site improvements, roads, parking lots, chair lifts, as well as all if processes required to review and approve such processes. The ability for our ski areas to move forward is linked to our most important partner, the u. S. Forest service and their capacity to review proposals and render decisions. Fee retention is a tool to boost the capacity to review ski area proposals. It would allow ski areas to invest more and sooner in much needed infrastructure. Retaining these fees is necessary because funding and staffing for the Forest Service<\/a> reck program sits at nearly 20 below 2010 levels. Visitation has only grown, increasing by 30 . The Forest Service<\/a>s own data shows that 85 of visitors to the National Forest<\/a> are seeking recreation opportunities. Of the ten most visited forests nationwide, nine of them host ski areas and that visitation drives local economies. Ski areas are less likely to receive timely reviews of proposals. Ski areas have experienced pauses during which proposals cannot be accepted by the agency. Some forests have seen a lack of manda bandwidth. Ski areas find it harder to invest resources. That means ski areas are less likely to upgrade chair lifts, and to transition to fourseason models, capable of supporting jobs and the economy all year. This uncertainty has unfortunately shelved skier investment that is would have benefitted workers, guests, and communities, dedicating a percentage of the nearly 40 million in fees paid by ski areas will unlock new opportunities. They have experienced good Revenue Growth<\/a> in the winter and were up over 100 from our summer activities thanks to the bill that this committee and Congress Passed<\/a> in 2015, the summer activities bill. Theres tremendous interest in our industry to harness this momentum and build the infrastructure necessary to support future growth. We urge your support of s1723 and thank you again for the opportunity to be here. Thank you. Mr. Davis, welcome. Thank you. The Committee Members<\/a> here today are very, very aware of the details in these bills and the issues facing us and all of the giant numbers and impacts that recreation bring to our economy and people. Ive been waiting for this day for about seven years and so i decided that you can read my written testimony and today im going to tell you some stories. Seven years ago, i was called to a meeting in oregon with some people that are here behind me that was about trying to figure out how to get more permits for groups who were trying to get kids outside. I was called because at that time i was running the largest outfitter guide permit in the state of oregon. And so people were pretty regularly calling me, Small Business<\/a> owners calling me saying how do i get a permit . Asking if we could broker permits, asking if they could is there any way they could work with us or could they buy them out so they could do the things they wanted to do within our permit. And i bring up that meeting because what we ended up doing in that meeting was deciding that we had to create a private Sector Training<\/a> program to teach Small Businesses<\/a> and outfitters how to navigate the permit process. You know, and so we built those with some again, some of the people in the room helped me with that, we launched those Training Programs<\/a> and we had to stop them within about a year because people were so angry by the end of the training. We would have Forest Service<\/a> staff come and tell them, you know, exactly what you need to do step by step by step and then they would here theres been a 23year moratorium on permits and the permit staff was not available that day to help them with their request. So we had to stop that training. And thats kind of ridiculous. The other thing that i think the is worth mentioning about those days is that the permit application that i would submit every year was 76 pages long. We had to tell them exactly where all 14,000 participates were going to be every single year, if we were going to vary the date of participation because of weather and different issues or anything like that, we had to call them and notify them. It was just incredibly laborious. That day i met a man named doug walker. Doug walker was the person that explained to me that the biggest threat facing public lands and waters in the future is that our kids arent building a bond of care with the outdoors. I think thats a those are some real reasons why we need to work on permit reform. Next i want to talk a little bit about National Recreation<\/a> areas. Most of us are aware that we have great tools and monuments to protect assets in our country but we dont have great tools that help us protect places where the primary value is recreation and thats i think some folks are afraid of creating a new designation because it might be misused but i think even on halloween we dont need to be afraid of that because of you guys. In other words, each new area would have to go through congress and the devil is in the details in this thing. And theres nothing that prohibits the interchange between recreational uses and resources extraction. The dean at Oregon State University<\/a> where i work likes to talk about trails in Northern Europe<\/a> where you can Mountain Bike<\/a> by wineries and farms and saw mills and they have recreational trails that celebrate all the great uses that our public lands bring to our people and economies and thats possible. I think youve heard in some previous hearings on this that people have had to go outside of the country just to operate sometimes because it was so hard to operate in this country. Theres a rafting guide in oregon that i know that does that, theres a mountain climbing guide in oregon that leads trips in africa because its easier than running them in oregon and washington. I myself spent eight years taking people to france because it was easier for me to fly 15, 20 people to france than it was to get them to recreate in alaska or washington or oregon. My most formative experience in the outdoors was traversing National Park<\/a> and is i would have loved to have taken those people there, but i couldnt do it. The last thing i want to talk about is about making recreation a priority. I think in my written testimony i laid out a series of strategies that we might want to look at and evolve into a National Strategy<\/a> to move the economy forward. I think that Outdoor Recreation<\/a> economy is the future of jobs in america and certainly resource extraction jobs will be with us forever, but i think we need to invest in this economy the way we invested in the 20th century in Natural Resource<\/a> based jobs and infrastructure. Currently in my role im working on creating pathways to new and better jobs, working on creating certificates and badges and degree programs eventually that will address the technical labor challenges and the leadership level challenges that all industries face and that also face our industry. Through my work, i also know that our industry really does back these bills. I work really closely with the Outdoor Recreation<\/a> round table representing 50,000 companies in america. They support these bills. This isnt just meeting and education and advocates saying this stuff is important. This is industry. And i think youre all also very aware that, you know, my work and justins work is about bringing together the entire recreational economy, no nonconsumptive, across divides. The last thing ill say is that i think future visions of high quality life in america include Outdoor Recreation<\/a>. I joke my kids can still draw you a better picture of what high quality life in the 50s was supposed today look like than 20 years from now. But we do know places like bend, oregon, and hood river in oregon, also, are icons of that. And i think if we can reform our process, if we can have dedicated account blg agency staff that are measured by Outdoor Recreation<\/a>, and if we can have tools to tell emergema they need to plan around that. Thank you, mr. Davis. Welcome. Thank you very much, madam chairman. Members of the committee for holding this very important hearing. We are doing critical work here to address the persistence challenges that are constraining guided Outdoor Recreation<\/a> experiences and we are grateful for your diligence. This week, today, im representing the National Outdoor<\/a> Leadership School<\/a>, nonprofit Educational Institution<\/a> which has educated nearly 300,000 students in our 55 year history, which was started by a 10th Mountain Division<\/a> member. Next well ill begin as the director of the american outdoors association. American outdoors is a trade association representing hundreds of nonprofit and for profit commercial outfitters across the antcountry. We have been working hand in hand for years. Simplifying Outdoor Access<\/a> for recreation act. And its fitting in a positive development for both our organizations to had this hearing on our bill today. The act is about finding solutions to persistent barriers for commonsense problems. Agencies have tried to reform their own permitting challenges to varying degrees of success. Administrators are able to navigate the process successfully. Many cases, administrators perceive too many obstacles in the successful processing of an application. The capacity announces its not been completed, administrators do not think they can make additional days available. Administrators do not feel they have the resources to complete an analysis. If there are other competing interests on the forest, those interests typically take priority over recreation permitting. Fundamentally, agencies need to adopt simp lulified reviews and empower officers to be more responsive. The act would restore reasonable flexibility and permitting, providing more options to permitted administrators who otherwise feel like their hands are tied. Strained resources compel the administrator on the river of no return, for example, by two days. For 15 years we ran a 12day course through a 72 mile stretch of river, training our students and training our having our inspectors train our students first to canoe, kayak and then to run the river. New people came into their place, they werent quickly replaced. The forest was constrained in managing a variety of permits. That changed our ability to educate our students. We used to have two days of clinics and then they have a half day of clinics, so its str stressful. Its hard on the students and instructors. Federal land and water agencies are in the business of connecting more people with their landscapes. Theyre raising the cost of entry. Programs for profit and nonprofit alike have no choice through the rising costs of running their business by either paying Cost Recovery<\/a> fees or layering of the layering of the 3 of gross fees. And we are constraining our businesses and raising our prices. Increasing cost and decreasing efficient is making it harder for our scholarship dollars to go as far as they could. Theyre targeting hundreds of at risk youth every year. We welcome an opportunity to free those dollars up and to make the courses more efficient so they could we can run more courses for more students. Finally, a Cost Recovery<\/a> i would say where an agency recoups its expenditures by billing a requesting party is not delivering as agencies hoped it would. If a permit request is under consideration that would require an environmental analysis to review, the review may take years. And the cost of the outfitter will run in the tens of thousands of dollars even for a relatively modest request. Theres no guarantee after paying that analysis the perm y permitee will be allowed the days. Its often applied haphazardly and places an undue burden on local businesses. I realize everyone in this room are here to connect more people with americas incredible outdoor treasures. I truly appreciate our collective effort to address those challenges in the spirit of this hearing today. Were all in this together. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Thank you to each of you. So i want to start my questions at Forest Service<\/a> at blm. Youve not only heard the issues that have been presented by the others, but youve heard the stories that we have shared directly with you, whether it is the nearly ten year effort to help facilitate activity down near haynes. Weve got an srma there. Weve come to you, mr. French, with frustrations over the length of time to get permits for some years. Much of what we heard back from Forest Service<\/a> was we just dont have available folks to process these permits. What has happened with the somewhat tortured history of borrowing that we allow to continue over the course of way too many years that it robbed accounts and you werent adequately and ably managed to staff. The good news for us is weve addressed that in this budget cycle and with this appropriations bill well move out here this morning. Were setting to rectify that. That doesnt answer all of the issues and frustrations with whats what can we do better when it comes to these permits on these public lands and how can we facilitate it . And thus the need for the legislation that were talking about here today when were trying to cut through some of their regulatory red tape or the permitting issues. So both blm and Forest Service<\/a> are mandated to manage for multiple use. Youve got to figure out how you balance recreation with the other uses of these public lands. So to both of you, how do you do that . How do you basically provide for that prioritization or balance one against the other. And then i might have to add it to another question. I want to hear from you specifically as to what you think you can do within your agency to respond to the frustrations, the very real and legitimate frustrations and not just say we just need more money, theres more to it than just the dollars. A wide ranging question to the two of you. Thank you, senator. I appreciate the question. I think the testimony that you heard today is very accurate. Its been the space weve been in, and as you mentioned weve heard from a number of folks about the lack of Customer Service<\/a> and our inability to deliver on some of these things. The fire funding fix is essential. Its basically stopped the bleeding of money away from those activities, so thats really helpful. Thats going to create a more stable environment going forward. On the first question about how do you balance, you know, right now for our focus, it is about dealing with that core issue thats driving that fire fundic issue. Thats the condition of our forest. Thats our focus. And then the other is around Customer Service<\/a>. How do we improve our Customer Service<\/a> . Actions that were doing to address this, this year building off pilots weve done the past two years, weve created funding for strike teams to focus on special permit use operations. Were at any given time have a backlog of expired permits that are unacceptable. Last year we cut the backlog in half, that was through these stripe teams. Were doing that doing a risk based approach where were bringing in resources to bear it there. Weve also just this year in our budget direction issued new guidance, developing Customer Service<\/a> requirements about the timeframes for us to respond on many different type of permit youre doing that with input from the user groups, or are you just are you working these best practices on your own . Because i think its important that youre acting kind of with consultation with those who are on the receiving end of this. How much input do you take from them . Do you solicit . We will. What we said is this year well establish those standards which weve never had before, about those minimum response times. That was issued about three weeks ago. And so that will be our work in the next month. Working with groups to inform how we go do that. The final thing id add is were looking at all the processes, the regulations that are around this that are driving some of the ways that were showing up that are not capacity related. So were looking at our regulations, but were looking at the policies on permitting in general. One of the things that were working on right now is theres over 8,000 activities in our permitpath processes that we believe through our nominal effects analysis may not require a permit. Its a multitiered approach of adding capacity where its needed. Reforming our policies and putting in performance metrics. I can suggest one of the things we have learned is that when im going to use an example. When the dodd frank regulations came out and i would hear all of my small banks and small Credit Unions<\/a> coming to me and saying were getting killed by the regulations. Spell it out to me, tell me which one are onerous and where there can be a level of fix. My hope is that agencies listening, to again, the o outfitte outfitters, the guides, the consumers in terms of these are areas that are onerous and burdensome and keeping it from a permit so i can take eight people out ice fishing. I hope theres that kind of connect back and forth. Im over my time, so im going to ask you to respond to my question in the next round. Im going to turn to senator manchin. Thank you, madam chairman. I have first of all, i want to commend the bill, basically. It opens up something bigger for me, because i come from West Virginia<\/a>, which we have the river gorge park system. We have one of the most fantastic rivers as far as rafting with the new and the gully. We dont have this problem. Because the state controls it. The state controls access. We want you to come. If its supposed to be for recreation, why in the heck is the federal government throttling everything back . Why are we fighting the federal government on this, that and everything else. My goodness, we have were doing another park and preserve and were writing into law to make sure the state, you know, fix something thats not broken. Im learning more and more about the federal and how much the federal government i know, i have a problem with that. I just told him the west has public lands. Still yet, the park can have control over our river access, same thing. But we never did give it to them. Thats the difference. I dont know how we the only thing i would ask any of you all want to comment on this, on the bill, it makes all the sense in the world. Theyre telling me weve had these permits out for a long time. Theyve been dormant, havent been used. Were prohibiting people from having the tourism we should have. Does this only for businesses or if i was a if there was a thousand that havent been used, could some of those go back to where i could walk up and use that river too . Or it would have to go through an outfitter . Let me ask if you dont mind, can i ask as a former outfitter guide, there isnt really in most places theres not a limitation from the general public, but anyone conducting group exercise, whether its a university or a business thats where you get this outfitter guide bucket. Thats where many of these moratoriums are limiting economic development, despite the fact that theres not a resource problem. Theres an overuse problem, thats one thing. In many cases, in the vast majority i would say there wasnt a resource problem. To me it seems like if we had language in legislation that would allow best use practices to enhance recreation, and the economy for the purpose of the findings of what were trying to accomplish, they have to continue to make sure the permits are used and if theyre not used they go back in. If i go out of business and i still have a permit, the way the law is right now, it stays dormant. Senator, if i may . Indeed, in montana we have a situation where one outfitter was Outward Bound<\/a> and red lodge shuttered. Those days were never returned, theyre just gone. And as theyre considering in its permitting, theyve got a clause in that draft plan that says theres a moratorium for the life of any plan on additional permits. We know the capacity is reduced, but we see no additional use being awarded tod anyone. I can say thank you senator, and any way we can work with you to make common sense for all of you in the western lands. If anyone thinks you cant be throttled back, come to West Virginia<\/a>. Well not prohibit you at all. Bring your own raft. Get with a guide. Get an intertube. Whatever you want. Were good with that, i yield back my time. Thank you, madam chair. Were knowing to bring an intertube to West Virginia<\/a>. Exciting development on the energy and Natural Resources<\/a> committee here. Field hearing. Photographs im sure. Madam chairman, i think these are all really good sorry. My apologize. Thats okay. Ill be brief, thanks. Thanks very much for your testimony today. The ski industry had a very good year last year in colorado. Were home to just under two dozen ski resorts in the state. Vales got resorts everywhere. Record number of visitors to our ski areas, Record Number<\/a> of ski the length of the ski season. It was an incredible year. Can you walk through what you see from the business side of this . No, i think thats right and i think thats part of the momentum that i talked about in the testimony that i think the industry is feeling. Coming off 2018 2019 winter that was good everywhere. It was not good in one place, dry in one place. Snow was up 30 and it was equally distributed. It was the fourth best year in the industry in terms of visitation, back up to 59 million skier visits. Everyone is excited about that. And i think that momentum is rolling over into this year. We have had our snowiest october in a long time in colorado. Good cold temperatures everywhere. A lot of snow making going on. Some accounting in colorado, over four feet of snow in october. Narveg everyones excited. The other thing that has the industry bullish is the advanced commitment guests are making all these new season pass products. Its a win for the consumer and its a win for the industry when people advance early or advance commit. With that success comes the opportunity to invest in aging infrastructure to make upgrades to equipment facilities throughout the properties and installations able to develop more accommodations for the growing number of visitors. What does that mean in terms of constraints on federal lands in trying to advance these Capital Improvement<\/a> protects youre able to make because of the successes . The momentum and folks want to capture and harness that momentum. First and foremost, none of this is intended or should be taken as commentary on the great work of the Forest Service<\/a>, theyre a tremendous partner. What were trying to do is narrowly address some of the constraints that our partners are facing. We cant be a healthy industry without a healthy partner with the men and women of the u. S. Forest service. But just a couple of examples, theres a western ski area they currently dont have a administrator in their forest. Their delays for a new lift, a new lodge they want to bury lines up to the ski area. They cant get started on that. Were seeing lower staffing levels, were seeing staff turnover and seeing details. But details run out and people leave. And that really impacts the ability. Weve seen a delay of project implementation for a new lift and trails and summer uses at a western ski area. There was a nine month pause. The forest wasnt in a position where they could accept applications for projects. We have competing ski areas in a single forest having to elbow each other out, trying to get the one project slot that that forest feels like it has capacity to do. And then i think one thing i dont want to miss are the Avalanche Centers<\/a> the Forest Center<\/a> runs. Theres 14 of them around the country. In our opinion, theyre underfunded by about half. Thats a Critical Service<\/a> that gets provided. I think its important to point out, too, with the white river National Forest<\/a> i think its the number one visited forest in the country over the last 20 years weve seen significant declines in personnel that are able to work in this. At the same time you have a significant increase in people visiting the most heavily visited forest in the country, making it more difficult. As you talked about in your opening statement, the 2011 legislation that passed, allowing for year round recreation. That has put greater pressure on the Forest Service<\/a>. Could you talk about how this legislation will allow us to address the year round Recreation Needs<\/a> and permitting of the Forest Service<\/a> . In 2011, you know, you could call it an unfunded mandate. Reducing the stress, in the white river we think were down 30 . Its been more acute on the white river. That forest and that region has done Everything Possible<\/a> to keep up with the ski industry. I think weve done a decent job. When mr. French was talking about the strike teams, you know, theyve tried to do that in colorado and they did that absolutely in consultation with the industry. I think were starting to see the fruits of that. Thank you, madam chair. Thank you. I wanted to start this by saying i think these are all really important bills and very compatible. But addressing the basic resource issue i think is also really important than just getting that out there. Setting fire borrowing aside, which the chair and a number of people on this committee have done a remarkable amount of work done in recent years and were starting to see that for the first time in the appropriations process. Recreation is still only 5 of the Forest Service<\/a> budget. That is despite the fact its the single largest economic driver across the Forest Service<\/a> today. It generates more income than the other programs we spend an enormous time focusing on in this committee. And by limiting that and not making it more of a priority, what were really doing is were limiting economic development, and especially in rural communities. We have to i think revisit our priorities and put more emphasis on recreation and just recognize that we need to fund our public lands agencies bare. For infrastructure, for the folks should be in the field to be able to actively manage. Weve got to do a better job. Weve seen in real dollars reductions in that focus over time. Thats a huge fundamental problem. Mr. Bannon, we heard from mr. Davis about challenges in terms of moratoriums. You know, i had an experience back in the 90s where i was trying to get a permit that the organization i worked for at the time had had for decades, im not sure how many decades, it was one we used every single year. I called up to check on my permit, and the recreation person said sorry were not going to be able to do your permit this year. Im busy on a land exchange. Call me next year. You just cant run a business like that. Whether youre organized as a nonprofit or for profit, if youre spending more than you can bring in and your business gets shut down for a season, youre out of business. Have you had those experienced, too . Those were the good old days. The if you were on a year to year temporary permit, thats gone away. Under the new permitting policy of the Forest Service<\/a>, which was done with the best of intent, a temporary permit is limited to 200 days. Thats not enough to run a single course on. Yeah. And the process for acquiring any kind of permit is murky at best i would say. And to the point that the fees the recreation resources have been so reduced, i think you see that a lot. Weve seen that at the National Forest<\/a>. Absolutely. And right now its going through a proposed management plan. Theres changes in that plan to group size, length of stay limits and were trying to get securities wrapped into our own permit as weve been renewing it. Weve been operating without an existing permit for over two years on an agreement. Theyre working with us to get it there. But its a pretty tenuous situation to be in. Speaking of murky, if i asked you to explain how Cost Recovery<\/a> works for recreation permits, could you explain it to me, you or mr. Davis . Not easily. Im happy to i try to process a new permit maybe eight years ago. The permit application went in, it was clear to the Forest Service<\/a> at that time with the Environmental Review<\/a> to process the permit would be significant. They asked for i believe about 14,000 down payment to before Cost Recovery<\/a> work. This is six, seven years ago. Just to get in the day. To my knowledge, the money has not been spent and has not been returned. So not only the permit is stalled Cost Recovery<\/a> is about recovering the cost of going through the process of the permit, paying for the agency staff to do all the various review processes and all of that. Which can be a giant barrier to entry. We need to make some changes. Thank you all. Senator . Thank you, chair. Ranking member manchin. I love talking about montanas economy and particularly about our Outdoor Recreation<\/a>. Its a pillar economy in montana. Its our Outdoor Economy<\/a> that is estimated to bring in 7. 1 billion in consumer spending. About 286 million in revenue to our state and local government. 71,000 direct jobs. Nearly 10 of all the jobs in montana. In fact, in one poll, 87 of n montanans said theyre outdoor enthusiasts. Who are the other 13 in montana . Its not just about dollars, its a fundamental driver of our economy. Its very much our way of life. My wife and i spent a lot of Time Outdoors<\/a> despite my staff trying to make sure i scale other things besides getting out in the wilderness. We did our normal 30 mile loops, some of it off trail. Thats what we define as a great time in montana. This bipartisan i want to thank the senator for his leadership here that streamlined the permitting process. Making it easier for families who want to fish one of our great rivers, they want to backpack, this will help. The bill is heavily supported by our groups. The montana alpine guides and so many more. And i will fight to get this bill passed, signed into law to protect the Outdoor Recreation<\/a>al heritage we have in montana. The bipartisan act helps streamline a burdensome permitting process. Can you explain how making key reforms to this process will help increase recreational opportunities . Thank you for the question. The blm currently issues about 1,000 permits and we oversee 4,600 permits at any one time. Typically, most recreation activities on the public lands do not currently require a permit. But we support this bill to help improve those permit activities. Secretary burnhart has issued orders to help in this regard. For example, were working on an Online System<\/a> so that People Public<\/a> users can apply to their for the special recreation permits online to help that process. One of the reasons that streamlined this process is so very important, its in places like montana we have a checker board pattern of land ownership. Theres a missoula company. It lets us know where were at of who has ownership. You can be on blm, Forest Service<\/a>, you might be on a fish and wildlife service, all of doing a short walk. The elk have no idea what federal agency that manages the land theyre feeding on. Our farmers and ranchers know sometimes where the elk are feeding in the alfalfa fields. Forcing outfitters to get permits from two agencies for a day hunt doesnt make sense. There is numerous agencies that have different permitting process. Doesnt it make sense that having a single permit would save the Department Time<\/a> and money and result in more people getting more permits and spending more time outside . Thank you for the question. Absolutely. We support the provisions of the bill to delegate the authority so that we can have that multi jerusalem dictional ability to issue those permits. On blm lands, you know, hunting, we probably wouldnt require a permit. I completely understand the challenge of ocas, where the checkerboard ownership was prevalent. So i completely understand their frustration that management that checkerboard increase is i can tell you, outdoor enthusiasts, they came to spend time outside, not play checkers. Sometimes you wonder. Lastly, i recently heard frustrations from a number of groups in montana about the complex and excessive amount of permit needed for filming. They cant keep up with the paperwork needed for something that has so little impact on the environment. What can we do to simplify film permits and make them more uniform . Theres a number of things we can do. Our staff is working on looking at our entire permitting process, this is included would it. Basically we feel the process right now is too cumbersome. Well get back to you on the specifics of that, senator. But its a focus of ours. Its yet another part of helping drive Economic Activity<\/a> in montana. We like to show off our beautiful plalandscapes. It makes for great backdrops for films. Thank you. Appreciate you bringing that up. I know that we visited and frustrated over this issue with the film crews and phot photographers. Part of the frustration, there were basically different rules or regulations from one public land agency to another. So it was different on Forest Service<\/a> than it was on parks. And, again, if all youre trying to do is take pictures of our extraordinary public spaces to have to jump through the level of hoops we did i know for smaller film crews, we were able to work through some of that. It was good but its something we need to continue working on. Lets go to senator king i believe. Was it king . Actually i think its cortez, but you needed to go first. Are we all good . Okay. Thank you. Appreciate that. And then lets talk about beautiful nevada. Outdoor recreation. First of all, by the way, happy nevada day. This is a holiday for us in november. We celebrate our statehood. Very proud of our state. But also of our Outdoor Recreation<\/a>. This is something that is really important to me and ive been talking about it in november. 87,000 jobs created generation 2. 6 billion in consumer spending. Mr. Davis, i so appreciate just pragmatic reallife experience that you have. Because this is what i hear every day in november. And one of the things that im curious can you talk a little bit about the people you bring out to explore the Great Outdoors<\/a>, some of the experiences youve had from them experiencing maybe for the first time. Do you have any stories . Because to me, this is not just about those of us who grew up with it or get to experience it. But those who are brought out for the first time. Thats what this is about. This is insuring that we preserve our pristine areas. We give access to the Great Outdoors<\/a> for so many different areas and opportunities for individuals who may never get the chance and all of a sudden boom, a light goes on because somebody had the opportunity to bring thim out there. Does anybody have a story with respect to something that theyve experienced . I think all of us have the stories, especially all of us here today. The thing i keep talking about, you know, is that theres been other benefits beside just the economic benefits. We know that it improves mental and physical health. We know it sort of especially among kids sparks an interest in lifelong learning. It turns on the light bulb and tells us we need to be stewards of the land. Its not just there its healing. Theres some sort of healing that gowise it as well. Thats one of the things i learned when i was home and talking with some of our veterans who deal ing with ptsd and some areas. Part of that is helping themual their healing process as well. Thaurng for your bill on accelerating veterans rover by the way. Yeah, i mean, theres studies recently that i think we took 72 veterans out on a Research Study<\/a> in the outdoors and there was a 27 reduction in ptsd systems because of through that study which is, you know exceeds the success rate for prescription drugs. Thank you. I only have so much time. I think its important that we make access available to everyone. We streamline the permitting process. Thats why were here for these bills. I think there is conceptionally a reason why i support that streamlining process and we all do. Heres my concern i think from hearing from our federal agencies. Its great that youre in the process of trying to do the streamlining now. But how long has this process been taking place . Seven years . My concern is every time theres a new administration there may be changes in whether theres the cooperation in streamlining unless we codify it somehow in law. Thats why i support this what were trying to do with this legislation is to make sure that longterm there is the coordination. I appreciate the agencies for moving forward on this. But let me ask ive had an opportunity here mr. French, because mr. Maguire brought this up. The concern with the avalanche services. And i think you said there are 13 of them throughout the Forest Service<\/a> but theyre underfunded by half. Im curious your thoughts on that and now senate bill 1723 the ski area retention act will help address that issue. Thank you, senator, for the question. We agree. I mean, if you look at the overall capacity of the agency to deliver nonfire work, its dropped by 40 in the last 15 years. Youre seeing acute systems of that in cases like this. This bill will directly help provide capacity into managing the ski area permits and that provides capacity to help in other areas. Its a direct help. When you talk about the work youre doing in avalanche safety, do you also talk about will this help you with education as well . Is that a key piece you do when youre addressing the avalanche services. The key focus of our avalanche focus is about prevention and then safety in the preventing avalanche said from occurring. Education is a key part of this, yes. The bill will help funding that . Thank you. My time is up. Thank you. Senator king. First madam chair, i want to observe we mispronounced the word recreation. It really is recreation. That is the essence of what were talking about here. The recreation of peoples hearts and souls when they enter the outdoors. And i just think its important. That word is recreation. Thats not what it is. Its recreation. Anyway. First, mr. Bannon, you mentioned 300,000 people have done your trips. My son was one of them 30 years ago. It was an extraordinary experience. It was on Prince William<\/a> sound in alaska. It was a signal experience in this young mans life. I want to thank you for what you do for 300,000 plus people around the country. More substantively, theres a theme here that bothers me. We had a hearing a couple weeks ago. Theres a bill to increase staffing to process certain permits. Here were talking about bills to increase staffing and be able to respond more promptly and efficiently to permits. The bottom line is the federal government cant work if theres nobody to answer the phone. And were going through a period where bureaucrat is a dirty word and where we have hiring freezes and freezes of salary, no raises. Yet here we are talking about delays in permitting because somebody i think you said was doing something else. Had a land transfer. Couldnt do the permits. We need to realize this is part i suspect you could have the same hearing in practically any committee, fish and pie wildlife, anywhere in the federal government. The process is complaints and permitting applications from our citizens. I think its important to point out, madam chair, you cant have it both ways. You cant bully rag bureaucrats and then complain that permits arent being granted in a timely fashion. I think thats an important point. Im seeing a pattern develop here. Finally, a specific question. Mr. Maguire, im curious about this bill. Senator gardner isnt here. In section 5a3, it talks about what the money can be used for. Most of the discussion has been about staffing up the agencies, no problem there. Then it talks about other things it can be used for. Interpretation activities, visitor information, Visitor Services<\/a> and signage to enhance the area. Could you buy a new chair lift with this money . No. What could you build a road through your ski area or to your ski area . Ski company could submit an application but the youre talking about increasing your infrastructure of your ski area, what does that mean . Im a little concerned were talking about federal money being given too profit making organization. Theres no matching requirement or anything. What could it be used for . What does it mean, Visitor Services<\/a> . I want to note, none of these dollars will be used today pay for or buy infrastructure for a private company, its pure but earlier youve used the word infrastructure five times today. So did senator gardner. I mean the permitting and processes, the need for process that a company must go through in order to be able to make that investment. So this money would go to pay the cost of the ski area in praping their application, is that what theyre saying . Ski areas pay for the environmental work they go through through Cost Recovery<\/a>. I dont anticipate this going. When the Forest Service<\/a> contracts that work out to a third party, they must necessarily accept the work of that third party back into the federal government. That takes the Forest Service<\/a>s own biologist i want to go on record as being concerned about this term, Visitor Services<\/a>. I dont know what that means. Ive gathered through this discussion that were talking about things that enhance the experience, thats what it says. And then it also says, oddly enough, it forbids using this money for Fire Suppression<\/a> or for Land Acquisition<\/a> to fill out an area i just find this whole provision a little disturbing. Madam chair, when we get to markup, id like more information. It says interpretation activities, visitor information, services and signage. Visitor service is a pretty broad term. I dont think we should be funding a new chair lift or if we are going to fund that kind of thing, there at least should be a matching requirement and other limitations. Do you want to respond . Certainly not the intent of this legislation to subsidize any actual infrastructure. When we say Visitor Services<\/a>, we need signage that lets visitors know theyre on their National Forest<\/a>. When we say visitor forest we need having Law Enforcement<\/a> available to visit. This means having the ability for rangers to be out on the forest if thats what were talking about, i dont think we have any problem. Im worried about the vagueness of the language. I dont quite understand why the money couldnt be used for Fire Suppression<\/a> on that unit. It seems to me it would be something we would want it to, wouldnt it . I think the concern would be the depression needs are so great that it could quickly take everything. I see. Okay. Thank you, madam chair. Senator king and i appreciate you raising that. What we might want to do is look let the record show i had that question before manchin. There you go. But i do think that this is an important part of what were doing is were learning more about the issues, looking at the legislation thats been proposed. We all know that even contained within these three bills, theres going to be some things, some ideas that are going to be prompted from this. More that we might want to add. As senator manchin mentioned in his opening statements, what were seeking to do is take all these good ideas not unlike what we did with the Energy Storage<\/a> initiative where we had five separate bills we kind of worked together to put together a package. I think the goal here is to really build a robust recreation, recreation package coming out of the committee. I appreciate the direct focus on some of this language. I think we want to make sure that, again, it all works. I wanted to give you an opportunity to respond to the same question i had asked mr. French about how you balance the recreation uses on blm lands, how you determine that and then ill have some other questions for the rest of you. Go ahead. Thank you for the question. The blm balances those resources through a land use plan. And so also secretary bernhart has issued orders around making recreational access and streamlining permits through several secretarial orders. So we are following those and implementing those and like i said, balancing those through our Land Use Planning<\/a> process. You know, i think we recognize that the processes are a little bit different between agency and that there is a difference in terms of ease of operation. What is determined to be user friendly, consumer friendly. Again these are things we want to explore a little bit further. Mr. French, i want to bring up an issue you and i have shared when weve been out, actually, in the tongas last year with the secretary. I raised it with the secretary at the time because its something i continue to hear as i am home in the state, specifically in the tongas. Although, the chugach as well. This comes up when you have volunteers, people who really love their outdoors. This is our forest. This is where we play and where we recreate. And they have seen degradation, whether its public trails or whether its the Forest Service<\/a> cabins. All they want to do is help. They want to be the volunteers that are going to make sure that the little cabin is kept better after they leave for their nice weekend than when they got there. And the level of frustration ive heard from individuals who have said all we wanted to try to do was help. And in order to be certified as a volunteer to be able to go out, we have to demonstrate that weve got were certified in how to run a chainsaw, that we have full on red cross training. These are men and women that know more about the tongas National Forest<\/a> than most any of us would on any given day. They feel like theyve been disenfranchised and discouraged from trying to be good partners. This is something that i know the secretary cares a lot about, because this not only is good partnering, but it gives us that ownership in our own forest. And so if you can speak to what you are doing within Forest Service<\/a> to look to these areas that are prohibiting or restricting volunteers from coming together to be helpful, what we can do here in congress to help facilitate volunteer efforts, i participated in a Parks Service<\/a> just volunteer day out at great falls area in august or september. August with my interns. It was great day for us. But it was one day. We were very strictly supervised, but we were supervised by fabulous folks from the parks. But our public lands need all of us chipping in, but it seems like our own government is the one that says from liability reasons, its not safe that you go there. Help me out with this. Okay. Thank you for the feedback. We never want to show up in that way. We have a responsibility to protect folks. And i think that may be a space for dialogue where we could talk about the liability side of things. We had 4. 4 million hours of volunteer assistance last year. Its critically important for us. If theres ways were showing up were disenfranchising folks. Were managing through education of our employees and talking about problem solving and finding solutions to fix that. Thats not the case in all places. When we see systemic issues, these are places where we have conversations about are there regional policies, local policies or National Policies<\/a> that need to be aligned because thats part of our problem. Were sometimes showing differently in different places, or we need to create alignment across the agency. Were open to hearing more of that feedback, especially if we know place wheres thats occurring and well address it. I know some of the Committee Members<\/a> have got to come together as an advisory, i think there needs to be more of that and really working together with our Forest Service<\/a> partners. I think we see some examples where its working better than others. But i have some very, very specific stories about what we have seen with Forest Service<\/a> cabins that are perfectly good, perfectly usable. But theyre pretty remote. Alaska and the tangas is pretty remote. Theres no roads to anything anyway, so people have to fly in and the pushback were getting, theres not a lot of use in that particular cabin because its remote. Thats fair. Weve got to make decisions in terms of how were prioritizing the cost. But if there are those who can then help Forest Service<\/a> in the basic maintenance instead of Forest Service<\/a> saying no, the answer is were going to take the cabin down because its expensive to go check on every year and not that many people are using it, but if there are those who can help, why are we taking down these great assets . Thats something id like to explore with you and your team a little bit more. I know it just cant be related to alaska. Weve got great facilities. Lets go back to you, senator. Thank you. I think were getting at a lot of really good issues that deserve our attention. I dont want to pick a bone with you, but i want to return from the exchange you had, because i think there was a little bit of a misunderstanding. Its true you said that the blm doesnt require permits for hunting. But i guarantee you having spent time in and around this business, that to guide a hunt you do require permits. And thats just really for a day hunt, which he was describing, it still requires the special use permit. One of the things we talked about quite a bit and ive worked a little bit with the chair on is the filming issue and congress somewhere around a decade ago at the tail end of the Bush Administration<\/a> tasked the department of interior, and the Forest Service<\/a> with coming up with unified filming structure. And in 2013, there was a draft not a draft, but a proposed rule my understanding is that that was accepted by the three doi agencies, meaning blm, park service, fish and wildlife. But the Forest Service<\/a> did not accept it and today we still have a mismatch between doi and the Forest Service<\/a> on those. Mr. French, do you know what the thinking there was and why we still have two different standards for filming . I dont. Ill follow up with you. That would be wonderful. We want to look at that and see if one makes more sense than the other if theres a way to unify them across agencies. Just like cross agency permits make a lot of sense when you have blm butting up against each other. I know in new mexico, when some of these shows film, theyre trying to operate in areas that have multiple agencies. So having one unified agency and a unified once again permit structure where you designate a lead agency and they can do it once rather than twice rather than jumping through both agencies might make a great deal of sense. I know you also mentioned the categoric categorical exclusions the Forest Service<\/a> is working on with respect to recreational activities. When do you expect final action on some of those . We would were expecting to release our final rule late spring, later summer. Were work ing on that. I look forward to seeing that, thank you all very much. Well, the other part of our job is now commencing. Weve got a series of three votes that have begun about ten minutes ago. Well have to wrap up here. But i want to thank each of you for your contribution to the discussion here today. I think this is one of those areas when we look to those things that the Energy Committee<\/a> can help advance that builds a level of support, builds a level of consensus. Weve got republican bills and democrat bills that we have considered here today. We have matters that people care about because they care about our public lands. They care about the ability to get outside and recreate or recreate i like that, senator king. Im going to remember it. It really is such an important part, not only of our economy, but what were blessed to have as americans. I think we recognize that we have visitors that come from around the world to see our national treasures. To walk through our parks and to float our rivers or to take an intertube in senator manchins state. We have extraordinary lands and how we make them available is important. But im also very, very cognizant that the experience is something that we want to insure is a good one. And sometimes that requires a level of regulation that some of us would rather not have to put up with. It is part of what a we do. We also have to recognize that our public lands are not lands, that they are multiple use lands and again, how we balance that is an important part of the discussion as well. So as we prioritize, thats one aspect of it. But again making sure that access in a way that treats the lands respectfully. It was interesting, when i was in Arches National<\/a> park with senator lee, extraordinary extraordinary spaces. It was my first visit there and just kind of takes your breath away. We were there in the shoulder season. There wasnt a lot of traffic on the road and just listening to the, the local folks there and the Parks Service<\/a> superintendent talk b about the increased visitation and how they accommodate that. How they ensure they have a good and safe Visitor Experience<\/a> youve got basically one way in and one way out and e everybody wanting to see many of these same treasures at once. So how we do this is a challenge. And a good one. So i think weve got some good legislation in front of us, a lot of good ideas to work with. Im going to be soliciting more as we work to build a broader package but when i think about those component pieces of Energy Measures<\/a> that we can move through this committee, its, its good to talk about our, our Natural Resources<\/a> in the sense of our oil, our gas, our coal, our renewables, our mineral, but also to recognize that the recreation component on our lands is an extraordinarily part of our economy and of our national identity. So we got some work to do and we look forward to doing it with you all. Thank you so much and we stand adjourned. Today, james r sich talks about chinas committee. The events hosted by the strategic and International Studies<\/a> at 3 00 or listen live on the free cspan radio app. Watch the cspan Networks Live<\/a> this week as the House Intelligence Committee<\/a> holds the first public impeachment hearings. The committee by chairman adam schiff will hear if three state Department Officials<\/a> starting wednesday at 10 00 a. M. , William Taylor<\/a> and george kent will testify. Then on friday at 11 00 a. M. Eastern on cspan 2, former u. S. Ambassador to ukraine will appear for the committee and ahead of the hearings, read witness testimony. Find the transcripts at cspan. Org impeachment. Follow the house impeachment inquiry and the administrations response on cspan. Unfiltered coverage live on tv, our radio app and online ch watch reairs on cspan or stream anytime on demand at cspan. Org impeac cspan. Org impeachment. Next, acting citizenship and Immigration Services<\/a> director ken kuch nelly testifies. He talked about this earlier this year. 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