History through a wide variety of perspectives and lenses. If you are interested in the people, you can learn more about the people who live there and the people who work there. The people who built it and repaired it. If you are interested in looking at things like artifacts, objects, material culture, painting, fine arts, decorative arts, the white house has all of those things, as well. If youre into politics, policy, that is something that people think about. Even pop culture or political culture. Understanding the white house is a symbol for american democracy and how that has changed and evolved over time. It says a lot about who we are and the american identity. I think all these ways of studying the white house, it touches on all these Different Things. You may not get this in a traditional, American History textbook but if you look deeper there is an incredible history on the surface. We are going to spend some time with both of you and your work and the association. I am going to ask you to give the elevator speech about the association and how it got started. What is its mission . The association was founded by Jacqueline Kennedy to preserve the history of the white house and share that history with the American People more broadly. Since then, we have worked on that mission to try and cultivate the white house, the first four especially. A museum for the people to tell the history of the white house and the story of the nation and try to make it more accessible for visitors that come through. Why the first floor specifically . The first floor is often referred to as the state floor, state rooms and the color rooms, the red room, the greenroom, the blue room, the east room, that is where a lot of the big events that we think of have taken place. This is where a lot of the famous implements were greeted and where interactions day today, in terms of workers and the people who lived there took place. That is the room we really focus on. That is the floor we focus on and it is filled with beautiful pieces of furniture and art that represent the white house history more broadly but also different parts of the american experience. We have american landscapes that showcase different and wonderful landscapes available in the nation. Also, key moments in u. S. History. To have the official role with the white house. We are the private non Profit Partners that work with the white house. When i explained that to people. Almost think of it as a foundation with an educational mission. The federal government will only appropriate money for the maintenance and upkeep of the building. If you want the state floor to have president ial trips and state services, historic artifacts that are returned to the white house all of that has to be raised privately. There is no taxpayer money used for those things. To have a say as to what pieces are in the white house . There is a group called community for the preservation of the white house it consists of a lot of the major heads of agencies like the smithsonian, chief usher of the white house, white house curator, head of the National Park service and the number of president ial appointees that serve on the committee. The Association Works with the community for the preservation of the white house to acquire things but also for various renovation projects. For example, when First Lady Laura Bush decided to renovate the lincoln bedroom in 2005, the association helped with funding of the actual project and research that went into it. It is called an association to people belong . As members . We do have a Membership Program it has grown by leaps and bounds over the last 2 years. What we tell people is for a pretty modest fee, i think it is 50, they can help us preserve and enhance the executive mansion for future generations. That money goes towards Public Programming, education initiatives and our quarterly journal. Also, our most popular publication is the guidebook which is something that was thought up by first lady Jacqueline Kennedy. We are on our 25th edition. Of course, the White House Christmas ornaments. These ornaments have been around 30 plus years . They used to be the primary way the association raised money, is that right . Thats right it still is a big part of our fundraising plan. The wonderful ornament comes out every year that represents a different presidency. This year we are celebrating president dwight d eisenhower. It is usually deemed relating to the presidency. This years is the helicopter because president eisenhower was the first president to ride in a helicopter. You came to the association with a relatively new president. Tell me the story of how you came to be . You associated with one another previously and then you were recruited. I first met stuart many years ago when i was at mount vernon doing research. My dissertation was on George Washingtons tomb and the memories of George Washington in the 19th century. I started researching there are in 2012 or 2011. It was before they had the library. At that point in time, the staff and the materials were crammed into the Cunningham Administration building. It was tight quarters. We crossed paths. I asked if he wanted to grab coffee sometime and we kept in contact. I continued in my graduate studies and he left mount vernon and ended up landing at the White House Historical association. 2 years later i defended my dissertation on washington and about five months later i got a phone call and he said there was a historian position open and asked if i would consider applying. I said absolutely. Before i knew it i was moving to washington, d. C. To start at the association. This was in the fall of 2016. You described yourself as selftaught on white house history because there is not an existing graduate program. Unfortunately. I think lindsay, she is going through the growing pains of that. Right now. When we go into these specific graduate programs, often times we end up writing about a Research Topic that is very specific or narrow and focused. Our scholarly training reflects that. We are experts on early American History. That was our training. Now, doing a white house historian, historian at the white house does not end in 1820, it continues and changes and evolves. All of a sudden you find yourself using all of your knowledge of American History and starting to connect the dots in terms of major changes in American Society or demographic or economic changes. You can see these unfolding at the white house. It is one of those things where you dont really learn the depth of the history until you get into the job. You realize how incredibly complicated and complex it actually is. What your story . I met matt, we were both at mount vernon, we were there for an extended period of time and i was working on my dissertations which is also on washington at a different aspect. We stayed friends and communicated and touched base occasionally about what we were up to. I had a scholarship in dallas and that was coming to an end. They happened to have an opening and matt called me and let me know there was a position coming up asking if i would like to apply. I said yes. It all worked out and i started in february. I was very fortunate that as many historians know, the job market is not particularly great. I feel fortunate to be able to do history work for a living. I love that. I get to work in a place that is very fantastic. How many historians does the association have on staff . At that 2. Youre looking at it. We do have a Fellows Program at the american university. During the Academic Year one of their public history masters will work with us and do a research apprenticeship. Its like we have 3 historians on staff and we are always bringing students and from other programs. We have a doctoral student from George Washington university and a student from usc. We are always trying to get new perspectives and new experiences and students from different parts of the country who can come and learn and work with us in washington, d. C. Our network has a very Long Association with white house historians. Bill is based out of texas. When he comes we usually have a few conversations about what we are working on and what he is doing. He is very inquisitive and he likes to make sure we have looked into all the sources we know about. He is a encyclopedia. Sometimes when we look for information we can find it on the internet. The best places to write a email to bill because he knows or he will know where to look. Bill, i have been at the association for about 2 1 2 years. Bill has been a great mentor in terms of letting me know where to start looking and things to start reading. I have tried to take that up and impressed that on lindsay. For new people, when they come on. The first thing is his masterwork on the white house history. I think theyre coming out with the third volume in a couple of years. That, working through that is so much information and such a great place to start. He is always our starting point for learning about history. Do you find it ironic that it is a historian that is a specialist in George Washington. It is a bit ironic and i feel like we do need to make a joke about it otherwise people will snicker on the side. I always tell people it is interesting that here we are. You put a huge stamp on the building. What did he do . First and foremost he selected the site where it would be. He selected where the city would be and where the house would be within the city. He had a Surveyors Training and surveyors background and enjoyed partaking in that as a hobby. He came to washington, d. C. And surveyed the potomac and selected the spot. Once the spot was selected in the process was in place he picked which design was going to be implemented and he worked with all the various architects to make it happen. He also met with architects before selecting his design and, i suspect although there is no record of these conversations, i suspect he said these are the things im looking for for his president s house in philadelphia. He had a bow window added to the reception rooms which i think he had brought into the white house in the oval drying rooms we see. There are certain architectural elements he absolutely brought to the white house. What you want people to know about washingtons association with the white house . When it comes to washington i see the white house essentially as a primary source. If you study the evolution and changes in the architecture, the materials used, the laborers, the designers, commissioners, it all traces back to one source. That is president washington. Even though he did not live in the house. He built the house like he was going to live in it. That is not to suggest that washington wanted to be president forever. It is just suggesting that he thought the president s house needed to represent the head of the state for a strong new republic. That was the vision he had, for that house. Even though he had no intention of really living there. It was interesting seeing the dynamical back and forth between him and jefferson. Jefferson had a different idea on what that house should look like. Lindsay, she alluded to this earlier, there wasnt much in washington, d. C. At that time. It was mostly farmland, swamps, marshes and to put this incredibly striking Stone Building in the middle of the National Capital to send a message to the rest of the world that the United States president should be respected and it should be a symbol that is treasured by the people. While we are on the subject of George Washington, you mentioned your dissertation and research which is on the two men the creation and memory of George Washington. Youve been out talking to people about that, how do you link that book which is specific to a president that didnt live there and a tomb that is out at mount vernon to the association. Icy washington is the linchpin between those two things. There is also a connection with the u. S. Capital, as well. At one point there was a plan to in tomb washington in the United States capital in the crypt. They wanted to have an open air hole in the rotunda and a statue of washington and washington entombed below. Even though washington did not live in that building there were different plans and designs and moments to entombed him in the nations capital. Then, i also look past the white house over to the Washington Monument which became a substitute in the 19th century for memorializing washington. If they were not going to move his body they wanted to build some ink magnificent and the Washington Monument was 555 feet tall. It was pretty incredible for its time. I think it ends up taking 40 years to complete. What was the focus on your research . My book is called the president s cabinet George Washington and creation of them American Institution looking at how the cabinet came about. It is an institution we are very familiar with and it is very public. It is not created by any legislation. The answer is washington created about 2 1 2 years into his presidency to provide advice and support when constitutional questions came up or diplomatic crises. It really wasnt intended to be a advisory body for the president to use when he saw fit. He could be in his private study in the president s house. Jefferson was the first president to convene the cabinet in the white house. They continue to meet in the white house in a public and private sort of way that is the story of my book and how it connects to this broader story. Where does the cabinet meet in the white house . A number of different places. In jeffersons presidency at met in his private study which is now part of the state dining room. It moved upstairs and most of the 19th century president s met in the cabinet upstairs. Correct me if i am wrong now i believe it is in the rec room by the oval office. It is adjacent to the rose garden. Across the history of president s using the white house for a residence that is an office, what period of time would it have been a functioning office in the residence part of itself. As lindsay said, most of the presidency the president s would have used that second floor space in the private quarters. The president s generally lived on the west side of the hall and on the east side of the hall that is where president ial staff was located. Overtime, as presidencies and administration grew and more staff were required, by the time you get to 1900, that is when there is just not space. The president s staff needs more room. When Theodore Roosevelt becomes president in 1901, one of the things he will do is build the west wing. He will demolish the conservatory and the greenhouse is off to the west and they will build the first iteration of the west wing. He will not have an oval office until taft introduces that later. That is where the president s office will be. The cabinets room is moved over there and the white house is more of a home as opposed to shared space from much of the 19th century. That is the subject of your next book . The renovation of the white house . What aspects will you be looking at . I want to tell the story of the renovation through the roosevelt family. I think there is a misconception that Theodore Roosevelt did everything himself. Actually, Edith Roosevelt contributed to a lot of his different ideas and policies. When they moved into the white house, she drew the diagram of where the children were sleeping on the second floor. She put her office, which was the second floor oval room, right next door to the president s office. They shared a door. In fact, when he goes down to see the digging of the panama canal, who does he bring with him . Edith roosevelt. In terms of first lady responsibilities you see something shifting at the turn ofthecentury. Roosevelt had a very different relationship and it was something where they treated each other more like partners and equals when it came to things like politics but also family. Women could still not vote at that point . Exactly. Lets start with you lindsay, when you look across the history of the white house was which president s were most influential . The roosevelt, both of them are huge. Fdr was in the white house so he had a huge impact. After him truman saw huge renovations. I also think jackson was a huge player under jacksons presidency is when the east room is finished properly. That is a huge moment. Of course, moving backwards, i would say the combination of madison and monroe, the white house burned in 1814 during the war of 1812. The rebuild and making sure it stayed in washington, d. C. Which was a question. It was possible they were going to move the capital elsewhere. insured stayed here and refinishing it to be a proper house of state. That was a huge decision and had a huge impact. How much of the white house to people get to visit today that is original . Are we talking about sandstone walls . Going off of what lindsay said, when tremendous the renovation between 194852, he essentially, the building is gutted. They try to save different materials to reuse them and some can be salvaged but others cant. This is when they start the Souvenir Program and they are giving people bits and pieces of the white house to purchase. The exterior walls remain standing and it was very important to truman that the white house was assembled, the white exterior needed to stay. He was also a freemason so he appreciated the crap and ship in the