Cadet, has vietnam war service, his years teaching at military colleges, and the time when Newt Gingrich audited his class. The interview is produced by the west point center for oral history. Its an hour and 40 minutes. Good afternoon. Today is 13, november, 2015 and i am in the center for oral history with mr. Kenneth g. Carlson. How are you, sir . I am fine, thank you. Sir, could you please spell your last name for us carlson. Youre not the only carlson in your class, are you . I am not the only carlson in my class. Theres another guy with the same name, kenneth carlson, hes kenneth r. Carlson. He was a wrestler. Im kenneth g. Carlson. I was sort of a basketball player. Did that cause any problems for you . Absolutely. The day i reported into the gymnasium, i walked into the door with my little bag and the people who had the roster there said youve already signed in. I said, no, i havent, i just walked in the door the first time. They said kenneth carlson, you just youve already signed in. I said i really have not. And they said oh, my gosh, theres two of them, kenneth g. And keith r. So when we were in east barracks, i was getting his laundry, which was much too small for me, and he was getting my laundry. So now my classmates know me as ken carlson large, and he is he used to be ken carlson small, but he didnt like that. So he is now ken carlson handsome, and im ken carlson large. And it works out fine. He became an fbi agent. Yes, sir, as long as youre good with it im fine. Im happy with that. Yes, sir. Tell me a little bit about your background, where youre from and where you grew up. Im an army brat. I was born in detroit. My father deployed to world war ii just after my birth. He went to the pacific as an army officer. He was going to be part of the invasion of japan from the philippines. He was an ordnance officer which is why we were in detroit. He came back im sorry, he did not come back. My mother and my brother and i went to japan after the war was over and we were part of mcarthurs pioneers. Wow. We lived in yokohama and my brother played with arthur mcarthur, they were both about the same age and he went to school through some sort of a mail order program. And i was 2 years old at the time. I learned to speak japanese before i learned to speak english because i had an ama who taught me japanese. Yes, sir. A little blonde headed boy walk around saying speaking japane japanese ]. And so anyway when we came back, i was 3 years old and, lets see, where did we go . We went to the naval war college. My dad was way war they didnt send him to the Army War College because they wanted him to transfer into the air force, the brandnew air force. Okay. My father wanted nothing to do with the air force. And so they said, well, youre a rising guy, you know, he was an 06 by that time, so weve got to get you some purple experience. So they sent him to the naval war college. Which was pretty cool, you know, we enjoyed that time, although i was too young to really remember it. And then we moved around for 16 or 17 more times until he finally ended up in the well, ended up in vietnam as a family. Wow. And ive got a little article here that im going to give you a copy of. This is from vietnam magazine. Yes, sir. And i published an article in this this is in 2009 called my whole family served in vietnam. Its a twopage article. But the interesting part about it is a lot of people have said my dad served, my brother served, not very many people can say my mom served in vietnam too. Yes, sir. But my dad was the deputy chief of the mag under hanging sam williams from world war ii. He got the name hanging sam because he was in charge of the executions at nuremberg. Wow. He was a lieutenant general, and he was the head of 50 or 60 americans in the country. My dad was a brigadier and there was one other brigadier. We lived in a very nice mansion with servants and drivers and all that stuff. But they had to go on the social circuit every night for three or four things a night, and it was really bothering my mother for two reasons. She started to become an alcoholic, but secondly she was standing on high heels on marble stuff for hours on end every day and it was beginning to hurt her back. So, in the middle of my second year there what year was this, sir . This was 19 lets think here. 195758. Okay. Okay. I got there in 57 and we came home at the end of the 58. So i was there for two years. And one conference that my dad was coming out of he lingered for a few seconds after the conference. All these generals are very well timed as to where theyre supposed to be and when. He lingered to talk to somebody at the conference and a huge planter outside the Office Building where this thing was blew up. It was targeted for him. Wow. He was supposed to be killed by this planter exploding. My mother was a little upset about that. And then three weeks later the the veto min, they werent vietcong at that time, drove by on a motorcycle and threw a hand grenade under my school bus. Of course the school bus was moving, and i was sitting up front, but it blew up the back of the school bus and a lot of kids were cut up pretty badly. So within a period of a month they tried to kill my dad and they tried to kill me. And my mother then was becoming frantic. So just at that point in time cinkpac sent orders to vietnam that said we want general carlson to go to laos, take his family to laos to start the mag in laos which there wasnt anybody there except laotians and North Vietnamese. L he said no, im not going to do that. He wrote a letter back saying as to why they couldnt do that, my brother was still here at west point, he hadnt been here but two years. Theyre trying to kill us. A lot of different things. Anyway, they rescinded those orders and he was sent back to the pentagon where he got promoted for his second star and retired in 1962. Yes, sir. How was it living in vietnam for you except for the hand grenade under the bus . Except for the bad parts . Yeah. I had a lot of fun in vietnam. I was a 13, 14yearold kid, i had a diplomatic immunity card. So that got me and my friends out of a lot of trouble because id just flash this at the white mice, i got let these teenagers go. We only went to school in the morning because it was too hot in the afternoon. To be able to stay in these quonset hut classrooms. And so in the afternoon we all went to the circle sportif in saigon. Thats the french sports club. It was about a block and a half from my house, near the president ial palace. It was still populated by french girls because their parents were still working in vietnam even after the french left. So i would go over there and i was learning french in school, but i really learned french by talking to the girls in the bikinis. At 14 years old, i had to be able to communicate with these women. Yes, sir. So i had a pretty good time. We went to hong kong. We went to india and took some side trips, and then we finally came home in late 1958, and we went instead of back across the pacific, we went around the world, came back through paris, and i flew across the atlantic on the second 707 to ever cross the atlantic. Wow. The first one that went from new york to paris, we got the return flight and went from paris back to new york. Thats exciting. Thats the first jet of course id ever been on. Yes, sir. Now a second ago you said white mice. Yeah. Some of our listeners might not know what youre talking about. Thats the vietnamese police. They all wear full white uniforms and theyve got a cross belt and all that and a revolver. But when you see them that was the white mice. Yes, sir. So i imagine you learned to speak french pretty well then. I was a pretty good french speaker. I took it throughout high school, i took it here and i got into advanced french and ive used it during times in europe. But if you dont use it, you lose it. Yes, sir. So. Did you learn any vietnamese . No. Well, i learned vietnamese swear words. We all knew those. Of course. So what year did you arrive at west point . Was that 62 . 1962. Okay. And what was your expectation when you showed up . Well, first let me say my dad did not want me to come to west point. Hes a 31 graduate. Okay. My brothers a 61 graduate. And he said, look, ken, youre air National Merit scholar, you have other opportunities. You have Ivy League Schools who are trying to recruit you to come. Why dont you do that . And i said i think i will. I think ill go to princeton. And then president kennedy gave his famous speech about let every nation know whether they wish will well or wear, we will go anywhere, pay any price to protect liberty. And i said dad, i changed my mind. I want to go to west point. And i had an appointment already. So i had a choice. He said are you sure . Because its not going to be pleasant. I said, ive heard stories from you and ive heard other stories from gunner, my brother, and so i will be prepared. Well, when i walked in the door, i was too well prepared because we you know, you pick up and drop your bag the first day when the man in the red sash tells to you drop your bag you drop your bag. Well i set mine down and pick it back up smack head i told you to drop your bag. And i dropped by michigan bag and it bounced. Because i had filled wit foam rubber to protect all my shaving gear and stuff that was in there. So the guy looked at it and said your bag just bounced. Open that up. And they saw all the foam rubber inside and said oh, its one of these guys that knows all the inside stuff. Then they learned my father was a general and at that point in time my pleeb year was toast. There werent enough first classman in the world who could get my neck to go back. Yes, sir. So it was a challenge. It was a challenge but i was a good student. I was on the honor roll most of the time. I graduated 57th in my class, out of 579. So i sneaked into the top 10 . But i was not a star man. But i didnt have any academic problems. One of the things they did with me was my tactical officer called me in one day its never a good idea to have to be called in by the tac, but he called me in and said i need your help. I said, you need my help . Had this is when i was a cow. He said, yeah, i need to give you a new roommate. I said whos that, sir . He said kevin kelly. I said id be happy to room with kevin. Whats the problem . Hes in the ejection seat, which means he currently stands last in the class. And if he goes deficient in anything, hes gone. And hes a great hockey player. And he said im moving him in with you because youre the closest thing weve got in this company to star man, and i want you to help him with academics. I said id be happy to do that. Well, kevin would come home from hockey practice. And hed say i need to rest my eyes for a little bit. So he would lie down on his bed. I would say hey, were having a written review tomorrow in electrical engineering. Are you prepared for that . No, not very well, but come over to me and let me know what i need to know. So i read to him while he was sleeping. Actually i brought him up 11 files. When he graduated he was 11th from the bottom. When i moved in with him he was at the bottom. Yes, sir. So i succeeded. He ended up becoming a doctor, actually he was an ob gyn. Thankfully i never had to see him. But i said if i ever woke up on an operating table and i saw kevin kelly with a knife standing over me i would die right there on the spot because wasnt the sharpest tack in the drawer but he was a really good guy and im glad he graduated. Yes, sir. Thats a wonderful story. And you said you played basketball a little. I did. I played for bobby knight. Okay. When he was the plee coach. Right. And mike suliman, all american was one of my roommates in the east barracks. So bobby was a spec 4 when he was working for kates lock. Who was the coach at the time. They asked him tates wanted to move to north carolina. And they had bobby knight if he would be the head coach. And he said yeah, but im only a spec 4 in the army. And they said, well, no, you wont be in the army. Well get you out of the army and well make you the head coach. He said will i make as much as a spec 4 . And somebody somebody wrote a number on a piece of paper and said, this is what were going to pay you. And he said, okay, ill do it. But bobby knight was its a handson coach. He would grab you and he used we had buckets, not bottles of water, we had buckets of water, he used to kick the bucket of water, he threw chairs across the court. In the mid of basketball games he got thrown out of the basketball game. But he was a super basketball coach. And now until Mike Krzyzewski took over, he was the guy who had won the most basketball games in collegiate history. Wow. I only played for him for a year and a half, though, and then i realized that i was not going to be a starter and that he and i didnt really get along very well, probably my fault. So i left the Basketball Team and i went to other activities yes, sir. And so as you progressed through and you get ready to branch, what was in your mind . What were you thinking about for branches . We all had to go, in the class of 66, we all had to go to Ranger School because they did not send us to the basic course. And then figured maybe if you went to Ranger School you might learn enough about combat you could actually succeed in vietnam where we all knew we were going. Right. So i said, look, it was buckner i made that decision that i wanted to go armor, because i was learning all these infantry skills. But they put us in a big concrete trench one day and they showed us a tank attack coming at us. A platoon of tanks. One would appear and another would appear. Pretty soon all five of them. They would drive right over the ditch. They tell everybody get your head down, right over the ditch. I said, you know, when im commissioned, i want to be the guy in the tank, not the guy in the ditch. 578d thats why i wanted to go armor. And you were high enough that you got it . Yes. Were there any other classmates higher . Yes. Wesley clark was the number one man in our class. And usually the top guys go engineers, with some exceptions. Sometimes theres a guy thats number one in the class thats so gungho he wants to go infantry. But wes stood up and said armor. I went oh, my gosh, there goes my chance to go to berlin where i desperately wanted to go on an experience that i had had there earlier. And so tend of all of this i said where are you thinking about going, wes . And he said, well, im choosing between munich and berlin. I said think quick, ken. This is the smartest guy in the class. Wes, do you not want to go to munich is in bavaria. It is nothing but blonds and beer, and youll not ever learn to be a platoon lead fer you go down there. So of course wes chose munich, and i was the next guy up and i went to berlin. How was berlin . Berlin was 90 miles behind the iron curtain. Am i doing all right . Youre doing great. Berlin was 90 miles behind the iron curtain. The brigade located there had three Infantry Battalions, one tank company, one artillery battery, and one helicopter detachments. And then of course the brits also had a brigade there and the french had a brigade. We were occupying west berlin and the russians were occupying east berlin. So i went in as a palo alto toon leader of company 40th f armor. And the Company Commander was 34 years old, a guy who had a lot of experience. He said so when did you graduate from the basic course . I said, sir, i havent been to the basic course. He said what . I said, none of us went to the basic course, they sent us airborne and Ranger Schools and then out to you. He said what do you know about tanks . I said not very much, sir, but im willing to learn. And he said, well, unfortunately you cant just learn by experience. So heres what im going to do, it was january of 1967. He said im going to send you to nco tank commander course at vilsec in west germany. And youre going to be there with a bunch of sergeants, but youre going to learn everything about a tank. That was the smartest thing he ever did. He was a grade commander but he sent me down there and i learned thousand take apart and put them back together again in the motor pool, in the mud, and when i came back, you know, the troops were no longer able to make fun of me. Before i left, you know, im sitting out there trying to figure out how to make the tank tourette slew and all that, and one of the sergeants comes up and said, sir, how many times have you done that turning it this way . I said, i dont know. He said you got keep track of that because if you turn it 52 times it falls off, it unscrews and falls off. So i started putting stuff in the logbook that says, you know, heres the number of times that turn the and the troops just thought this was hilarious. But im out again in the motor pool, thats where i lived. I went out and one of these guys took the external earphone off an m60 a1 tank and said sir, youve got a Long Distance call from america. I said i do . So i picked it up and the guy on the inside of the tank said, hi, kenny, its mommy. And by this time im going, what . Of course everybodys going oh my god we got the lieutenant again. Hes got a lot to learn. Yes, sir. But it ended up being a very good experience. One of the more interesting things that happened to me was we had this Immediate Reaction platoon that had to go out in ten minutes notice because we had to be at checkpoint charlie if the russians started making noise and screwing things up again. So one night my platoon was and we all had to live in the barracks when that happened. One night my platoon was called out at 4 00 in the morning to report to a certain block in the woods that surrounds berlin. And he said report to the commander in chief of the United States army europe, four stars at block 68. Will well, i hadnt been a platoon leader very long so im smart enough to know i had to turn to my platoon sergeant you lead the column and ill be the second in line. He said i know block 68 blindfolded. We got out there and there was general ill think of his name in a minute. I reported to him. He was standing there in hunting clothes next to his mercedes. And he Said Lieutenant, andrew p. Omeara. We called him apo. And he Said Lieutenant carlson, i want you to take your platoon and go down to that wood line on the other end of this open area, and i want you to come through the wood line. And then when you come out of the wood line, i want you to put your unit in line and come with me with five tanks in line, driving right towards this mercedes. And i said, yes, sir. He said and i want you to be sure to be buttoned up. Do not, do not let me see any heads out of any tanks, because i want to see if you can do this without hand signals. Okay . I had no clue