all semester we have been talking about richmond. the name of the class, covering richmond. history,alked about geology, geography, political events that happened in this town. we told you it is an introduction to the dramatic events that have happened over the past almost 300 years. said you would have guessed to speakers that would bring to class something that the two of us cannot bring, personal experiences. their personal experiences in richmond. i cannot imagine a better person to talk about his personal experiences in richmond, how it has changed and what the future for formerthan governor, former mayor of the city of richmond, douglas wilder. [applause] >> before we bring up the former governor, i want to say a couple of words. as we talked about many times this semester, we have a great resource here at the wilder school, we are close to the state capital and not far from washington, d.c. as a graduate student here, i took advantage of the applied nature of this. i hope that you are getting some of that and exploring richmond neighborhoods for your final project. eating into the community, interviewing people, talking about the history of neighborhoods from folks on the ground. we know that is a really important thing. further, just a reminder that the wilder school that many of you are part of has a center for public policy that offers research and technical expertise to individuals, to local governments, private institutions. they are looking at exploring their cities and local governments like we are doing in this class. this semester you have heard from the woman in charge of richmond's master plan about what we want to be when we turned 300 years old as a city. last week, you heard from the man who wrote the book on annexation in virginia. i watched your mouths drop like mine in shock at some of the things we have uncovered about what richmond is, who we have been and where we are headed. so today, we have our schools and namesake here with us. he is an attorney, a distinguished professor, a bronze star veteran and the driving force behind an ongoing effort to establish a natural -- a national slavery is imputed douglas weather has been a public service with more than 40 years dedicated to improving the quality of life in the commonwealth of virginia. he has been the mayor of our city. he won all my districts. remember how we talked about how we had to buy order of the supreme court rearrange how we did voting because of annexation? he won a majority and on my districts to be elected our first at large mayor of the city of richmond. he has been in general simply in the state senate, has been lieutenant governor and was the first elected african-american to serve as governor in the united states. he is also a lifelong resident of our great city of richmond and knows more about our city and pretty much anybody you can talk to. this semester long journey of uncovering richmond, it is my distinct pleasure to introduce governor douglas wilder. [applause] muchilder: thank you very to all of you this morning, happy halloween. that i was going take my mask off tonight while everybody else puts theirs on. i would have liked to have been here to listen to some of the speakers you have had. i saw one couple of mexico, a good man and good friend that knows a good deal about our city. and i think some of what i might say might be repetitious, but we will deal with it and will answer your questions when you ask them. startk it is important to at the outset by recognizing is an independent city. virginia is the only state that has independent cities. do you know what i mean by that? county. no city is in a there are some of you who might live here, go to chester grail or hanover -- to chester or hanover. you say that i live in richmond. don't have the airline going to hanover, it is ultra richmond. that is interesting. virginia is a little different. we had all of the banks at one time, all of them. and then the branches were not established because the law would not allow them to have branch banks. but they were little banks. usually the people who owned the banks were member of the general assembly. [laughter] mr. wilder: that was changed, we help for u.s. get allies, but because we did not have branch banks, they said we will go to charlotte. charlotte new nothing as it relates to composition of business. the banks when they are, the allies went there and we lost big-time in the city. of all of the 41 the united cities in states, all but three of them are in virginia. the other three are baltimore, st. louis and carson city, nevada. there is an additional anomaly because in that regard, they are all subject to legislative control. we are operating under the rule, we are a dylan rules state, you have heard that expression before. rule, he was chief justice of the iowa supreme writernd also a prolific about local governments and one of the greatest authorities about municipal law. in order to get a real understanding of the city of richmond, one has to be made aware of the so-called legal constraints imposed by the adoption of the dylan rule you may have been aware, but like some people today, dylan was a man who distrusted local government and local officials. he is quoted as saying "those best fitted by their intelligence, business experience, capacity and moral character usually do not hold local office." [laughter] and that the conduct of municipal affairs was generally unwise and extravagant. these strong beliefs were adopted by the virginia supreme court before the turn of the 19th century, and the dylan role is still in effect in virginia. what is it? ofis also known as the rule statutory construction and is used to interpret when there is a question of whether or not a local government has certain power. it construes the grants of power to localities very narrowly. the bottom line is, where there is a question about local governments role or authority, the local government does not of the the benefit doubt. one must assume the local government does not have the power in question. in real language, the first part of the rule reads like this, local governments have only three types of powers, one, those granted by express words in the charter, those necessary or implied to the powers expressly granted, and three, delayedsential to the or object to the corporation. not convenient, but indispensable. the second part tightly limits go -- local governments powers if there isuggests any reasonable doubt whether power exists or not, that power has not been conferred. not aer words, it is notion of power. either it is expressly given or you don't have it. , put that on the side, and then you have to take into consideration brown v. board of in 1954. when that decision came down, people in virginia were quick to recognize that it would have a substantial effect. when that decision came down, i at the time was working in the chief medical examiner's office of the state of virginia. my undergraduate degree was chemistry. i was working in toxicology. the science of poisons. i also did all of the drug tests for theng state of virginia. they only had one office at that time, in richmond. the driving limit at that time was 0.15. you could really be drunk. [laughter] mr. wilder: i never really was interested in chemistry. i only went into chemistry because i thought i should be a doctor because john was going to be a doctor, me too. it was a "me too" counseling -- ill-fitted me because i could do it, i could get by. i had just got back from korea and i could understand several things, how i was sent to defend koreans and die there if necessary for rights that i could enjoy back home. it didn't make any sense. it still doesn't. there were numbers of things that were still going through my mind. you talk about being a confused veteran coming back. i was still messed up, but i took it out in different ways. when that decision came down, it's so effective me, the chief medical examiner himself was a doctor and a lawyer. my immediate supervisor, the toxicologist received the news , of the brown decision. him.s as if it was freeing he said, doug, did you read this decision this morning? i said, yeah. he said, what do you think? i said, it's great. it's hard for me to believe that nine white men finally decided that they had been wrong. i said, it is a heck of an admission. he said, but what does that mean? you, to tell you the truth, it means that i'm in the wrong field. i can't just stay here and do this. i don't want to get a masters in chemistry or a phd. i did not have the smarts for it, quite frankly, or the ce or interest. i have to think this thing through. after about 1955, i had started thinking i wanted to go to law school. obviously, i had to go to southern virginia unless i wanted to file a lawsuit and spend a bunch of money to try to get in. so i went to howard law school. my interest was that i wanted to be a part of this social engineering to change what was. i said, i can't sit by and watch what is taking place too much longer. so, when that happened, the majority of school populations were in independent cities. that's why i referenced the dylan rule to begin with. the cities were authorized by law to annex the counties. if richmond wanted to annex half of chesterfield county, they could have. all they would have to do is have the approval of the court, and the court would have to approve the price of it. when that decision came down, the thrust was made to make certain that the majority of people would be living in the cities, that there would be some annexation, you watch. to dilute the black vote because the city was growing in population numbers, sure enough, what that city did, they saw to annex part of henrico first. that plot all out by willow lawn and beyond, the officials put a price on it. the city officials decided it was too much. they regret it now. they said, we asked too much. they looked south and saw portions of chesterfield county. they said, will take that part. when that took place, during that period of time, i was in the state senate, and had decided that, since i'm running for this position in 1969, when the annexation took place, i'm running for this position, i had better be a little careful in terms of whether i wanted the annexation or not. because if the annexation people are successful, i have to appeal to these voters. if they aren't successful, these people would say you do not want to help us with annexation. i pretty much chilled out and didn't do anything. quite frankly, that was the attitude of the majority of the african-american leadership. it did nothing, absolutely nothing. it was surprising. i would go to court sometimes in the morning and i would run into the lawyer that was representing the people in chesterfield who had been annexed. he said, doug, are you guys going to stop this or try and fight it? i would give him enough to satisfy him for the moment, but he knew it wasn't me because i don't usually stay like that. i'm usually here or there. in the process, he kept asking me what was going on. finally, one of the persons who had run for the office of the city council, curtis hope, he was a tenant's-rights advocate. he decided to bring the action himself to stop it. he was assisted by a lawyer named veneble. veneble was not supported that well by those of us who felt it should happen. , thedid take place elections were held up for some seven years. until the matter was resolved in court. when it finally got to court -- and by this time, i'm elected to the state senate at large. that was the first time anyone had been elected at large to the state senate -- or elected to the state senate of color since the reconstruction period in virginia. and so when that case finally was determined, it was determined based on whether it could be settled. there were those who said, we can do it if you have six at large -- i'm sorry, six districts, three at-large representatives. richmond had nine and still does have nine districts. there were those who would have said no, we should make sure that it's a majority minority. because it is minority population to be represented. there were those who said, let's make it 4-4 and one even. i came out on the side of 5-4. i was able to get the richmond crusades of voters which, at that time, was very influential politically for the minority vote. we were able to get that done. the other people were saying, why don't we do it with 4-4 and one even. i said, i don't think that's going to work. we ended up with a 5-4, which is todayrrent circumstance in terms of -- well, it is more than that now in terms of the composition of the districts. and yet, i think, when that took place, it gave rise to the reason why i think richmond has earned the moniker some of you have heard, the city of no left turns. up a one-waying street, you will have to go to war three -- you will have to go two or three blocks to get where you want to go. planners do those things. they make those decisions. why do you think they did it? where were the jobs? in richmond. where were the businesses being generated? in richmond. if you were running the city as you always have, then you don't live in the city and you want to be able to get in and out of the city as quickly as possible. that's why you have what you have in terms of the street makeup in the city of richmond. the i-95 expressway to petersburg disrupted large portions of the african-american communities. the po-white parkway did the same relative to other parts of the city from east to west. as late as the 1980's, when 295 was contemplated, i was at that time the chairman of the transportation committee in the state senate. i did everything i could, as as well as the chairman of the house committee, who convinced them, don't make 295 run around the city because it is going to hurt the city. you want people to come through your city, to see your city, to stop at your city. i always complained about a place like san antonio. you don't go around san antonio, you go into san antonio. they have a ditch that you can spit over that they are so proud of they call it the riverwalk. we have one of the oldest rivers in the country, one of the most historic, that we still have as yet not developed to the extent that people can enjoy. tried to stopn, i the circumventing, but i wasn't able to do it. i was introduced as a mayor. once i finished my tenure as governor, i had thought i was finished with politics forever. i did want to be finished with it. unfortunately, i started seeing things take place in the city that i described what was taking place and saw richmond was a city of corruption and inefficiency. a cesspool, i called it. boy, did they come after me for saying that, the leadership. they did. several council members had gone to jail in disgrace. in 2003, i started a petition to have the mayor elected, not selected by the majority of the council members in a ceremonial role, but to be the authoritarian leader of the city, elected by the people at large. all of the people. as has been pointed out, and thank you for the fine introduction -- and i know john spoke about it as well -- but what john may not have told you is that not a single political leader supported the movement. not one. the crusade for voters, down. the naacp, down. elected leadership, down. nobody anywhere supported it. we asked the city council, would you at least put the measure on the ballot so that the people can decide? would you allow the people to vote on it? they didn't do that. at the time, i think tim kaine was the mayor of the city. i said, tim, can you work something out to at least get something on the ballot? he said, i can only get four votes. i can't get five vote majority to do it. so, what we had to do was to go out and get the people to sign the petition. if you get the percentage of people to sign the petition, then it can go on the ballot. we were able to get about 15,000 signatures to make certain it would go on the ballot. even though the entirety of leadership was against it, when the people voted 80% to say, we want a change. that was in 2003 here. if 80% of the people felt that way then, that sent a message to me. that said that the leadership is totally out of touch with the people. it didn't have anything to do with me, it had to do with the message that had been resonating, that people didn't believe that the leadership was doing the job for us. you are right, i carried 80%. i didn't want to run for mayor. i told the business community, who was helping me with the petition, i said, we're going to get a mayor. we're going to get somebody. they said, when? i said, give me a couple of weeks. we will find some person. one person that i had in mind couldn't do it because of the residency requirement. you have to live for a year in the city. another had just committed to something that he could not get out of. i made my little report and they said, we have to have somebody. you have to do it. i said, no, give me another week or two. time was passing and passing. i said, i will do it for that period of time. i almost got the same amount of votes that the petition passed by. i think it was close to 80%. did that resolve anything? a little. i committed to staying there only that one term. but there are problems that still need to be addressed. one of those problems is that the mayor should have more involvement with education than just furnishing the budget on schools. that's why i settled upon, when i was mayor, building 15 new schools. i found a way to do it without raising taxes. how do you do that? if your business is coming into town and i need your business and you want to come to town, you want a tax abatement, some relief. ok, you don't have to pay taxes for x number of years or you don't have to pay this tax for this number of years. or you can get this coming to you. i had fixed it so i could build 15 brand-new schools without a dime's worth of tax increase. because the money one of them rolling through at a certain period of time. i had established with bank of just inwhat we call line credit. i had fixed it so our interest rates on bonds were so low because we were fiscally managed and we were doing an excellent job. we had just in time financing. they said, we can put $150 million appear for it, but whenever you need it, that is when the interest starts. i said to the schools, i want you to close the schools that are not operating. they are vacant, we are still paying cap -- paying taxes, paying upkeep, still paying for the insurance, still paying for maintenance, we still have to be sort nobody goes and. -- be certain nobody goes in. they still haven't done the job with armstrong school over in the creighton court area. that has been unoccupied for school purposes for about 30 years. there are others around like that. the mayor, in my judgment, should be in a position to say we are not just going to furnish the money. i will give you an illustration. the superintendent left the city of richmond about a year or so ago. every time he was opening his mouth it was, we are broke, we need money. come to find out there was $540,000 sitting around that no one even knew about. why? that's why i think it is so important for us to recognize that the uncovering of richmond is one thing, but to know where we are is quite another. i think it is so important that we make certain that the people are there, that the people should be represented. we are talking about, and you will be talking about, as you said, the removal of statues and monuments. my position on that -- i've only spoken twice on it. one was with c-span. the other one was a piece i wrote for the richmond times-dispatch. i said i always believed in constructing and building -- i wanted to put an arthur ashe statue on monument avenue. ultimately, we were able to get that done. it wasn't easy. we had to fight some of the same people that didn't want the petition. same people. it wasn't a black-and-white issue. that. you to understand it was, we did not think of that. it went so far as that some people even tried to divide the ashe family. i had at the time a radio show i was using and i carried the show to monument avenue and had the show being conducted from that point. that is where the statue is today. if you look at the statue, he is holding a tennis racket in one hand but he is holding books in the other. the youngsters at the bottom, he is telling them that what you need is to understand learning. i will open it up to questions in a minute but i want to tell a story about ashe. he's a good friend, good man, always been supportive of efforts of mine. i remember when he was a youngster. about like that. his father was the park superintendent over at brookfield swimming pool, a segregated pool, as well as the ground where the tennis was. that's where he learned to play tennis. he would be out there, the racket was almost as tall as he was. boy, so wesay go on, could play. i used to joke with him. i said, the way you represented us and that we were even trying to compete with you is one thing. in that process, he was here once and he had a speaking engagement. i was governor at the time. i said, what are you doing this evening? he said, i am pretty good. i said, why don't you come by the mansion and will have dinner? he said, what time? i said, you let me know, and he said i will. he said, i want to check a few things. he did it he called me and he said, would it be all right if i would bring a couple of people with me? i said, not a problem at all. come on. 6:00 or so, he came. answered the door. 13 people. [laughter] mr. wilder: all relatives, young people. we came for dinner. i said, everything is fine. the staff at the mansion was great. whether they knew you were coming or not it took so little , amount of time for them to be ready. i said, why don't you sit at the head of the table? and i will sit at this and in the family members will sit around. he pointed out, he said, i want you guys to pay attention here. look and see who is looking down on us. george washington on one side, thomas jefferson on the other. he said, you need to know as to what has happened for us to be here today and to be in a position of recognizing that we are virginians. that we are here. i was the first governor -- i think, the only governor -- ever to be elected from richmond. most of the others have come to richmond to live after their election. but i was born in richmond. 28th and p streets, the only house my family ever had was there. my father had that house built by a friend of his who was a daughter wasose ethel bailey furman, the first african-american architect ever licensed in virginia. and so, as we sat there and that moment passed, i said to arthur, i can't tell you what it means to see this taking place. when he passed, his widow called me and said that arthur had always wanted to be buried with his mother in the cemetery in richmond. i said, i would love very much to have his body to lie in state at the mansion. she said, do you think you could get that done? i said, i might know somebody. [laughter] mr. wilder: he was the first person to lay in state in the mansion since jefferson davis. i am not bragging, that i am telling you the history. the question still comes up now as to who runs the city. i would like that to be answered by the people so that the people do, and that it is an extension of the people's choices in their elected officials. with the accountability of removal and replacement where needed and where necessary. we were chatting briefly up here as it relates to this class. i was telling him how pleased i am, larry, that this class is taking place, because you are learning more about the city of richmond, in many instances, than the people who are charged with the responsibility of running it. i can say that unabashedly without self-contradiction because i know of where i speak. thank you. we will be taking some questions. [applause] >> what is with this independent city business? i thought we were going to get rid of independent cities in virginia. why not? mr. wilder: well, my answer today would be, no, they are not going to get rid of it. because the voting strength is not in the cities. it is in the counties and in suburbs. where are the votes? in richmond? no. then --nties and adopted to be cities. princess ann county. suffolk was not a city. all of these places have become cities. and so the independent city thing -- it's going to be a hard time for you to be able to get the votes because the suburbs and rural areas. the unfortunate thing politically, people sometimes overlook the strength of the rural areas as it relates to the suburbs. the suburbs of richmond, for , hanover and chesterfield, very strong. you have got judgeships to be selected. wordhen, i have a one definition i used for politics, can anyone guess what that is? one word that would define politics? money. give me something that is a proposition before any tribunal that doesn't involve money. i'm quite certain here that one of you is going to tell me the magic answer. that does not involve money? can you think of something that doesn't involve money that people are discussing politically? interesting that we have this silent agreement. you are to be congratulated. every now and then, someone thinks they've got it. it.one says, i've got abortion. are you crazy? [laughter] mr. wilder: the whole argument is about where is the money going to come from and how am i going to be able to -- if these people are so rich, they can travel to this place to do what they had to do. i got it, lgbt. i said, you got to be crazy, you are talking about inheritance rights. money. if that is the case, you need to know where the money is being spent, on whom it is being spent, who makes the decision for it to be spent, and where does it come from? much of what we have talked about here today relates to money. it's hard to get away from it. that being the case, i think it is going to be very difficult. all right. >> i'm curious what additional measures you would have liked to have enacted had the dillon rule had not prevented you from taking those actions. what measures you would have taken if the dillon rule had not restricted your power. mr. wilder: when you say restrict your power, as a city, a state, or what? >> as a mayor. mr. wilder: well, unless it is expressly put into the charter that you can meet with the superintendent of schools to determine, meet with the city council to determine who the next superintendent of the school is -- the mayor of richmond has absolutely nothing to say about who the superintendent of schools is going to be. now, does that sort of raise a question as to why not? because of the dillon rule. is it expressed in the charter that you have that? no. should it be amended? yes. some people said, you don't need it. another is that the veto right that the mayor should have relative to the actions of the city council. the dillon rule is not all bad to the extent that it doesn't allow you to just run all over the world, say i'm going to do this, that, and the other. for instance, the issue of the statues that come up, how are you going to remove a statue that doesn't belong to you? where was the property located? was it city property or state property? we have a little statue here not far from this place, the one on harrison with the artillery pieces. that was given to the city -- given to vcu by the city of richmond with the express provision that there is nothing to be done with it. if there's anything to be done, the city has to approve of it. all of that is the dillon rule. i get back to education. unless we can have the best aproaches for education, and man can come up with any number of things in mind, the city council could. but they are powerless. it raises another question. that is, the election of school board members. which i think it is good. as a matter of fact, i signed the legislation when i was governor that they could be elected. i think that was one of the last things i did. however, i did put an amendment because i knew we were constricted by the dillon rule, that no locality should have elected officials on their school board unless the locality itself votes for that. so there has to be a referendum. yes, ma'am? >> did your feelings on the dillon rule change when you became mayor versus when you had served as governor? mr. wilder: [laughter] good. yes. they did. your hands are tied. it is a natural thing that you would want to know. why can't we do things together? i was moving pretty well as it relates to getting a better relationship with the local school system, i had even moved to a point that one of my good friends, bill, happy department of education, was helping me. there was opposition from some of the vested groups because they felt that, if richmond does this, it will be spread to other places. yes, when i was governor, that was one way to look at the dillon rule. when i was mayor, that was another way. but i think, by and large, there has to be some understanding of relaxation. it shouldn't be as rigid as it relates to our cities. one of the finest speeches i heard barack obama make -- i was mayor at the time and we were in miami. he said that, unfortunately, our cities are looked upon as being roadblocks to economic development and the opportunities for enhancement. he said, they are the real engines for that to take place. what we need to do is to reinvest in our cities. he was saying what donald trump is saying today. when he said it, the room erupted in applause and agreement. this was a room full of republicans, democrats, independents. unfortunately, he had gone through the first stimulus package to get the money to the people who opted to get that money back because of the recession and such. when he went for the second part of the money, he couldn't get it. unfortunately, now, people are looking at our cities. they are seeing what is happening. for instance, an illustration. i was decrying, what is going on in st. louis? i knew that st. louis was a very prosperous city. how could ferguson exist? i found out that ferguson is only 25 or 30 miles away. st. louis is an independent city. consequently, they didn't have anything at all to do with ferguson. i said, how can i be critical of anything i've been living in , richmond and watching petersburg go down and down. we have a responsibility to see what laws need changing. what best fits. we are changing demographically. businesses pretty much have left. great effort is bringing them back. but i have had different feelings. the last thing, on the dillon thing, is that no locality can raise any tax unless the general assembly says you can. that is the rule. you can't raise a tax unless you ask the general assembly of virginia. all right. yes, ma'am? >> you mentioned economic development in cities. how can individual neighborhoods economically advance without introducing gentrification? mr. wilder: there's nothing wrong with that in terms of gentrification. i don't look upon gentrification as being racially oriented. unfortunately, some people have. in terms of the redlining that took place years ago -- not now. i lived on hawthorne avenue in richmond, beautiful area. then, and still is, a beautiful area. i have seen numbers of people leaving from that area. but their homes are so huge. the one i had on hawthorne avenue had 15 rooms for five of us. that's a whole bunch of space. i've seen some people who are moving over to parts of church hill, 34th street, the area near the cemetery. church hill has been gentrified, as people would call it. when you look at the top of the hill, up from the fulton area, you can see homes and developments. one of the things i would like to see more of in that area is, particularly, the citizens having a view of and participating in the river. i'm very glad to see some of the road improvements that are taking place. i come in quite often. i see that taking place. i would like to see more people and more younger people. here's the problem again. education. people with children are not going to bring their kids to the city of richmond to go to the public schools unless there is improvement. they will bring their kids to the city and live in the city but they will send them to the private schools. that's not right. that is not good. that is why, again, gentrification, education, they run hand in hand. do you agree? good. we made it. another thing you have, a special table at edo squid, what is your favorite thing to get? mr. wilder: when they make it, gumbo. they make the finest gumbo in town. they do a great job with squid. it is very difficult to come by any bad meal at all. that is why, when i need in richmond, i go there. he is a nice guy and a good friend. what is yours? >> i like the veal scallopini. mr. wilder: you can have it. no, i like that, it is very good. >> as governor, were you able to implement rules to preserve predominately african-american neighborhoods? mr. wilder: no. it would never come up in that context. as to those neighborhoods. again, they are local decisions. they have to be made by the cities and counties. one of the things that i was very much interested in was making certain that we had the schools in those districts preserved, because if you don't have the schools working efficiently, you are not going to have any preservation. the unfortunate thing is that -- i have spoken about this here, with my colleagues here -- very few people today are aware of the history of richmond. when i came up, i lived at 28th and p, as i said. the boundary lines were from sorry, from-- i am 34th street to 25th street. that is going east and west. north and south, it was from broad street, gray street to nine mile road. pretty much in there, that was the african-american community. when you went away from that, you went down into the bottom, where there was very little residential involvement. there were the viaducts that went across what is now marshal street, and you would catch the streetcar. underneath that, they had an elevator. you could take the elevator on the 17th street side and go up and you could take the streetcar. all that has pretty much been gone. there has been some efforts. those neighborhoods, as such -- well, the one going to petersburg. neighborhoods were wiped out. there was nothing to preserve, quite frankly. yes? >> in your time in office, did you have any first-hand experience with issues of pollution, environmental issues, with respect to the james river? could you talk a little bit about that experience if so. mr. wilder: well, yes. when i was first elected to the senate, things were so bad in the plant in hopewell that they stopped any fishing. you couldn't eat any fish that came out of the river. that's how bad it was. well, it depends on what part of the river. i was down at charleston and we ate our fish. but it was so bad. that is in the richmond area. we had other places around the state that had businesses, particularly up near -- the end of the james starts up near the roanoke area and falls all the way on down to the chesapeake. we had so many environmental concerns that, not only was the water bad, but we were losing wildlife. i was very fortunate as governor to be able to institute a policy of re-nesting for the bald eagles. my secretary of the interior at the time was a lady who was very much involved. we ended up -- the eagles were on the endangered species list. they have been taken off. we have one of the largest nesting areas of eagles in the country. now, i have a conflict of interest because in my backyard, they sit in the trees. to see.beautiful sight why did we spend all the money to get the eagles to come live in this backyard? no, it is a recurring ring. thing.rring i think the environmentalists today have a much better reputation than at that time. many times, there were all these environmentalists that were always determined to be on the far left of a different variety, not really concerned. but i think people now are beginning to see, look, something has gone wrong here. water is so essential to our being. in the absence of that, we are not going to do well. i think the effort, and i hope you were part of that effort to determine, whatever was bad in terms of the water in the james, you don't stop the effort, because it doesn't take long for things to go bad. i was talking to my nephew who was here yesterday, visiting me. he's a retired federal judge in detroit. we were talking about flint and how bad things were and are there. he said, the poor lady came into ynt thing.er the fl thing.flint the question becomes, what happened to the elected officials? could they have done something? why didn't they? flint is not just there, it is everywhere. all of our jobs are to demand what is right of government and to criticize what is wrong. and don't care who agrees with you. and you will see the result.

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