Transcripts For CSPAN3 First Ladies Influence And Image 20240622

Met in their 20s and their love for each other was reflected in passionate letters. An accomplished artist as well as his intellectual companion, she helped guide his career from academia to politics. In adopting causes, she set an example for future first ladies. Ellen wilson died in the white house just a year and a half into the president s term. The grieving president soon met washington businesswoman edith galt through a mutual friend. They married after a secret courtship and edith wilson served as first lady for more than five years. Her unprecedented role in managing the president s affairs after he suffered a stroke remains one of the most controversial efforts of any first lady. Good evening and welcome to cspans continuing series, first ladies influence and image. Tonight the story of the Wilson Administrations two first ladies ellen and edith and we have two terrific guests here to tell you about this two interesting women and the times in which they lived. Kristie miller is a biographer of the two first ladies. Her book is ellen and edith Woodrow Wilsons first ladies. John Milton Cooper is Woodrow Wilsons biographer. Cooper, thanks for being with mr. Cooper, thanks for being with us. Well, were going to break precedent a little bit. When in the president S Administration did he suffer the stroke . More than halfway through the second term. It was in october 1919. He had just returned from a whirlwind speaking tour. He was trying to sell the country on ratifying the peace treaty and going into the league of nations and hed really worn himself out on that. And his doctors had actually aborted the tour and got him back to the white house and he after about five days back in the white house he suffered this massive stroke. Susan swain the story of the stroke night itself is really very dramatic. Could you tell us briefly about what happened in the white house that night . There are some conflicting reports about what happened but i think that the most accurate portrayal is that he got up in the morning, edith had been going in to check on him during the night and she found him slumped to the floor and he couldnt move his left side. She went out into the corridor to use a telephone that did not go through the switchboard. She did not want to have this universally known. And she asked the chief usher to call the doctor from this other phone. And the doctor came in they helped him into bed but he was paralyzed on his left side. Susan swain well, a character thats going to be a big part of this story is cary grayson. Who was he . John Milton Cooper jr. cary grayson was a navy doctor. He had made that his career after he finished med school and hed been assigned to the white house first under the taft administration. And then shortly, well, taft introduced him introduced him to his successor wilson and then pretty soon after the inauguration was and it was wilsons Kristie Miller that was during the inauguration. John Milton Cooper jr. ok. It was wilsons sister fell down susan swain right. John Milton Cooper jr. and grayson treated her and did a good job and also he was a very charming man and a virginian, too, which helped, you know, with the wilsons. Yes. Susan swain and his role with the president s medical condition after the stroke was what . John Milton Cooper jr. he was the white house physician. I mean, he is the one who treats him. That was his id say that was just everything he did was that. They called in various consultant specialists but grayson is the one thats really treating wilson. Susan swain now, you told us that the president was paralyzed but what was the extent of the of his condition . How badly had the stroke affected him . Kristie miller he had a blockage in an artery leading to his brain. And this is usually not a fatal stroke but it did immobilize him for a while. He probably would have recovered fairly rapidly had he not about 10 days later suffered a second medical condition. Kristie miller he had prostate trouble and he had a urinary tract infection with a very high fever. Of course, they didnt have antibiotics at that time. They debated whether to operate but the specialist felt that to operate on a 62yearold man with high Blood Pressure and a stroke would have been very unwise. Kristie miller so, they just tried to let nature take its course and eventually he recovered but it really sapped his vitality. And this kind of onetwo punch really did him in for about a month. John Milton Cooper jr. it was i think kristie is free to agree or disagree but i think the worst effect of the stroke on wilson was really on his emotional balance and his judgment. His intellect wasnt impaired. His speech wasnt impaired so that yes, he could function that way but, you know, so much more goes into being a leader, being a president than just being smart and just being able to do these things. John Milton Cooper jr. and another thing is partly because of that other illness that you just talked about, kristie, they isolated him and that was what when youre supposed to keep them away from any stress or whatever and now the neurologists say that is exactly the wrong thing to do. What you want to do with a person whos had a stroke is get them back into social interaction and everything as soon as you can. So, they would with the best of intentions they were doing exactly the wrong thing. Susan swain dr. Cary graysons letters are part of the collections at the Woodrow Wilson president ial library which is in staunton, virginia about two hours away from washington. And we visited there. In the course of putting this program together were going to learn a little bit more about some of the history grayson captures in his letters. Peggy dillard we have a letter in this box from Henry Morgenthau who was later writing his wanting to write a book about his experiences. And so hes asking grayson if he can use certain information. He wants to use in the book the information you gave me about president wilson and your having come to the conclusion that he should resign and how he was influenced by mrs. Wilson to give up this plan. Peggy dillard so, mrs. Wilson was very concerned that her husband would not get better if he did not have something to engage his mind, that he would just deteriorate if he was forced out of the presidency. While president wilson was ill it has been speculated widely among historians that mrs. Wilson essentially became the president. Peggy dillard we have one document here that sheds a little bit of light on that. It is a telegram from Henry Morgenthau who is the ambassador to turkey and hes writing to dr. Cary grayson asking if the president has any objections to a citizens meeting to protest against turks being left in control of constantinople. And morgenthau has been asked to speak at this meeting and so hes asking basically permission. He doesnt want to embarrass the president so hes asking for advice. And on the at the bottom of this telegram, there is a handwriting that is ediths handwriting. Were familiar enough with ediths handwriting to recognize it as such. And at the bottom she writes thinks it well to postpone speaking on such subjects. What we dont know is did edith take this telegram into wilson, ask his opinion and then write that or did she just come to that conclusion herself. The public was very interested and curious to know the condition of wilsons health. Peggy dillard and so, you know, rumors were rampant in the papers even congressmen didnt know what was going on. They only knew what they read in the papers. After it was all over, cary grayson later wrote up a summary of what happened from the time of the stroke until wilson left the white house. And on the last page the decision was made to announce that wilson was suffering from nervous exhaustion. There were no other details given as to what was wrong with him, really nobody knew the extent of his illness, that he really was not capable of doing anything. Dr. Grayson, thought it wise to issue general statements only. Further, mrs. Wilson, the president s wife was absolutely opposed to any other course. She did not want it to be known that he was really suffering. Again, she was protecting her husband. She wanted him to be able to fulfill his duties as president. She was worried about his legacy. She ultimately, she was concerned about his health. And she felt that if he left the presidency, left the white house, he would just waste away and die. So, john cooper, the constitution we should say made no provisions for what would happen with an incapacitated president. So, what did washington do . How did they react . John Milton Cooper jr. well, a couple of different ways. Robert lansing who was the secretary of state and would have been fired if wilson hadnt had the stroke because there had been a bad break and thats another story but lansing tried to get the cabinet in on it. And i think he even made some communications with the Vice President who stayed out of it completely. He just simply said no. I mean, the constitution this is before the 25th amendment which actually is not as much of a protection as we think in the cases of inabilities, they dont talk about disability but inability of the president to perform his duties and what does that mean. Well, usually that means the president is dead so the Vice President succeeds. But if you have a disabled president and this is the one time that we really have had a disabled president and how do you deal with it. And, edith, i have a lot of sympathy for her. You know, she was scared. You know, this is a very scary thing she was in and make it up as you go along. Susan swain on the facebook Kristie Miller, david welch says what part of personality or intellect thus prepared mrs. Edith wilson in a sense to take over for the president during his recovery. What skills did she bring to this responsibility she was taking on . Kristie miller thats a very good question because shed had exactly two years of formal schooling in her whole entire life. But she comes from a numerous family and she had been chosen by her grandmother to take care of her, to be her caregiver. The grandmother was a very opinionated woman and taught edith basically that it was good to have opinions and t make decisions. Edith had been widowed relatively young and had inherited galt jewelers which was like the tiffanys of washington. Kristie miller and so, she kept the jewelry store. She had a manager who made a lot of the decisions but she was used to having everything her way. And so, she brought this very decided personality. In addition, woodrow had courted her by showing her a lot of secret papers. Henry kissinger used to say that power was the ultimate aphrodisiac and i think Woodrow Wilson would have agreed. John Milton Cooper jr. oh, yeah. Kristie miller and so, he was using this entree to these secret papers as part of his courting, courtship and she was susceptible to that. And so, he shared a great deal of what he was doing, really a great deal of what he was doing with her. So that, i think john said that she probably knew as well as anyone what he was doing and what he was thinking because he was a he was a real lone wolf when it came to being a president. He didnt have a lot of close advisers wouldnt you say. John Milton Cooper jr. thats true. Yes, thats true. Susan swain i have a quote to show you both. Its from edith wilson herself. She published her memoirs. And in this big controversy about how much power she took upon herself. Heres what she said, i myself never made a single decision regarding the disposition of public affairs. The only decision that was mine was what was important and what was not and the very important decision of when to present matters to my husband. Susan swain ok. So, today, we know the gatekeeper to the president is really the most important job. John Milton Cooper jr. he or she who controls access to the president to some extent is president. And as she said its not just who got to see him he was pretty well embargoed for well over a month. Nobody from the outside got to see him but also what the president gets to see. And, you know, she would decide what was what was best for him to see and what not. John Milton Cooper jr. one of the to me, one of the raps on edith in this was that she was putting her husbands health ahead of the good of the country and that somehow that her priorities were wrong there. Well, i dont think that was entirely why she did what she did. She knew what he wanted. And that if he couldnt express himself she knew he would not want to resign, that he would want to hang on to this. And she as kristie said, she knew his mind better than anybody else. So, if anybody is going to have to act as a substitute in this situation she was, i think, the best person to do it. Susan swain Tiffany Fannin on facebook, it says did anyone try to prevent the first lady from acting on behalf of the president you mentioned the secretary of state if so, what happened to them politically . John Milton Cooper jr. well, the secretary of state got blocked by other cabinet members very quickly. They grayson and tumulty, wilsons secretary plus the loyalists like baker and daniels and the cabinet put a kibosh on that on that very quickly. And nobody knew how much he was doing. Kristie miller well, there was the smelling committee socalled. There were two senators who were detailed to come in and assess the condition of wilson because it came out when lansing went up to capitol hill that he hadnt spoken to the president about a very volatile situation in mexico. Kristie miller so, they deputized one democrat and one republican and edith and dr. Grayson really stage managed that very, very well. Again, the accounts differs exactly what they did but whatever it was, it was enormously successful including senator fall , the republican who would have been most anxious to show that there was something wrong with wilson said to the press afterwards that the president grasped his hand with both of his. Well, that was manifestly impossible because woodrow couldnt move his left hand. But he was so taken with wilsons apparent animation, he made a lot of jokes because that part of his thinking came back very quickly. He loved to make puns and he loved to tell jokes and stories and that came back relatively quickly. But as john said the judgment was really what took a hit. Susan swain and we have a bit of a timeline of the president s incapacitation as to the stroke as john cooper us was in september of 1919. It was not until december that the president took his first steps after the stroke. It was in march of 1920 when he left the house for the first time. And by the way, we have to talk about all of the political intrigue and important decisions going on in the aftermath world war i. His beloved league of nations was rejected by the senate in that time for the first time. In april of 1920, the president had his first Cabinet Meeting eight months not meeting with the cabinet. Its almost unthinkable. How did the government continue . John Milton Cooper jr. by routine and also wilson was a great delegator except in foreign affairs. Other than that, he gave his cabinet secretaries lots of leeway so they were used to running things on their own. Or i think its just very lucky and they something of a tribute to that that government functioned as well as it did, not all that well but it kept going. Susan swain and since this is a story about edith, all during that time what really was her role . Kristie miller well, i think one aspect to her role thats been overlooked is the extent to which she tried to make woodrow give way on some of this intransigence about the league of nations. Now, in her memoir which is fanciful in places she says that she asked him please to compromise with the republicans in congress to try to get the treaty passed with the league of nations. Kristie miller and he she said that he turned to her and said, little girl, dont you desert me to i loved it said he always called her little girl, she was about five foot nine and she says in her book that she never tried to change his mind again. But we found evidence that there were at least two other occasions on which she did try to change his mind. Kristie miller she and his what would now be called chief of staff, joe tumulty had discussed some of the places where they hoped woodrow could give a little ground and then where the republicans could give a little ground. They hoped to find some compromise. And she took some notes very hurried almost shorthand notes of whats obviously a speech that she was going to give to wilson that wound up saying, and for the sake of the country and the peace of the world please consider this. And it didnt work apparently because he didnt change. But she was not a woman to take notes on something and not do something about it. And then a little bit later she had some conversations with Ray Stannard Baker who was very close to wilson later became his official biographer and he gave edith some suggestions again some talking points to try to get wilson to change his mind. But he didnt and by the time he refused by that time the republicans were also hardening their line. Some of the hardliners were reeling in the republican leadership. Susan swain so, donald blaze on facebook asked specifically id like to ask if edith spoke out publicly on the league of nations and if she did, did she support it. Kristie miller she didnt speak out on anything. This is again to correct the big misperception of edith. I do not think she was at all power hungry for herself. She wanted what her husband wanted. His agenda was her agenda. She used to say to people, i never make speeches. I think she made a few years after woodrow died but during the time he was in the white house she was asked to present, i dont know, something innocuous like a bouquet of flowers to the girl scouts and she just said id like to make a speech but i never have and i wont. She didnt even approve of voting for women, of women suffrage. Susan swain so we need to continue with our story and go back in time. But before we close up this section, the interviews will come back to this later on. But we thought youd all want to get this out because its such an interesting aspect and historically important. Whats the bottom of this period in American History . How did it affect in how we view the role of the president , the role of the first lady and the constitutional issues behind it . John Milton Cooper jr. the role of the president. I mean, Woodrow Wilson follows theodore roosevelt. And these two together acting one after the other made the president the center the center of the government, the active part. And even, you know, even president s later such as Calvin Coolidge especially who wanted to retreat to the sidelines couldnt do it. I mean, now thats what thats what really changed there. The first lady role, i think probably, probably in terms of trying to continue that. I think ellen probably had more impact than edith did. Kristie miller absolutely, i couldnt agree with you more. Susan swain well, thats a great segue because we now have to move in ellens wilsons story. Susan swain and before we do that i want to tell you that how you can involved. The beauty of the series, and by the way tonight is a special twohour Program Since we have two first ladies to talk about. But our phone lines will be open and you can reach us, 2025853880, if you live in the eastern or central time zones. Mountain and pacific, 2025853881, you can be part of a facebook conversation, go cspan on facebook. And finally you can tweet us using at first ladies or the hash tag first ladies and be part of the conversation that way. Susan swain so we welcome your involvement as our program progresses. But were going to roll back the clock and talk about the long marriage of Woodrow Wilson to his first wife ellen. And to set the stage the stage for that were going to visit the wilson house. You saw it on the open, on s street in washington d. C. It is available for you to visit if you come to the nations capital. And inside right now in the drawing room is my colleague peter slen. Peter slen thats right, susan. Susan. We are in the president Woodrow Wilson house with bob enholm, who is the executive director of this house. This is the house where president and edith wilson lived post presidency. How did they acquire this house . Robert a. Enholm well, its interesting. They moved here literally the day they left the white house in 1921. This home cost 150,000 and they managed to scrape together the money by assembling both president wilsons winnings as the Nobel Peace Prize winner and also donations from 10 of his wealthy friends and political supporters. Peter slen edith wilson lived here until her death in 1961 . Robert a. Enholm in 1961, its 40 years to the day. Peter slen she died right upstairs. Robert a. Enholm both of them expired in this home. Peter slen and 1924 for president wilson. Robert a. Enholm thats right. Peter slen now even though it was Edith Wilsons house, there is the presence of ellen wilson here, isnt there . Robert a. Enholm thats right. We try, at the Woodrow Wilson house to remember president wilsons years which include both first ladies, ellen wilson and edith wilson, and of course president wilsons history. And i think its important when considering figures in history to remember that they had childhoods and experiences that led them to the places that they were. Peter slen so what are we looking at here, bob . Robert a. Enholm this portrait here is a painting painted by ellen wilson who was a painter of considerable talent. And even as a young girl she knew that she was a good painter and enjoyed it. I think its interesting that when president wilson proposed marriage to her, she said but id like to go to the Arts Students League in new york, which is where she went to school for a year before they were wed. I think its interesting that president wilson at that point in his life accepted that and married this woman who was independent and really laid the ground work for his understanding of the growing role of women in society. Peter slen bob enholm, the story behind this painting, at president wilsons funeral . Robert a. Enholm his last wishes included the wish that this painting, painted by ellen hang over his casket before he laid to rest at the national cathedral. Peter slen we are at the wilson house here in washington d. C. About a mile from the white house. Well show some more a little bit later. Susan swain well, thanks so much. Edith ellen, excuse me, axson, was born in georgia in 1860. Tell me about her early life. Kristie miller her early life was very difficult. Her father was a presbyterian minister he had served in the civil war, but he had to leave because of some stressrelated conditions. He later developed a Mental Illness and died in a mental institution, possibly a suicide. Kristie miller and ellen was very close to her mother but her mother died in childbirth with her fourth child when she was 43. So ellen really had to take over the family. First, after her mothers death, she had to take care of her father, and then after her fathers death she had to take care of her brothers and sister. And so, she became a very competent manager. Kristie miller she was very well educated for a woman of her time and place. She would have gone to college if shed had the money. When her father died, as they mentioned, she had the money to go to the Arts Students League in new york for a year. And she was very unsure that she would ever meet a man who could be her intellectual equal which she felt was necessary for her marriage. Kristie miller in fact she had plans to open up a boarding house for women and support it with her art work. And people around town started calling her ellie, the man hater because she was so clearly not going to be satisfied with anyone in the town. But then Woodrow Wilson came to town. He was a lawyer at that time. He had a case. He went to church where her father was preaching and he met her there. Susan swain how important was it that both ellen axson and thomas Woodrow Wilson, people may not know that he was thomas Woodrow Wilson, were the children of ministers . John Milton Cooper jr. well, in some ways thats the world they grew up in, not so much the u. S. Or the south but the presbyterian church. That in many ways is a world unto itself. What it didnt make them know, either of them. And i think this is true of wilson as much as it is of ellen. It didnt make them religious zealots though. It didnt make them obsessed with religion. In some ways religion was so central to them that i think in many ways they could take it for granted. You know, its in the background. Its always there. Its very important. Of the two of them, he actually was more the good, strong believer. Shes the one who the religious doubts, especially because with the various family troubles, depression ran, really ran in the axson family. And i think probably one brother eddie, who died in a tragic accident as a young man was about the only one who wasnt touched with depression. And she ellen was, in some ways, she metaphysically and philosophy she was more curious than wilson was. Wilson was much more, in some ways, hes more interested in the affairs of the world. But religion was a background to them. Susan swain he is interested in the affairs of the world, but he is so easily smitten with women. He fell and this is an important characteristic of this personality that you write about. John Milton Cooper jr. well, yes, yes, he was. Susan swain so he knew instantly that he loved his woman. John Milton Cooper jr. yes. Susan swain and women played an important part throughout his biography. John Milton Cooper jr. oh, yes. Susan swain what do understand about women and his psychology and the role that they play with him . John Milton Cooper jr. well, i wish i could say that he was a man who of great enlightenment and forward looking views he wasnt he wasnt bad, though. I mean, by the standards of that time he really comes off pretty well as having, you know, believing strongly that women are very bright and very capable. Generally, though, i think he still likes the subordinate role. Basically he just liked women. And more so, than i think men of that time. You know, he enjoyed the company of men very much, but he just generally enjoyed the company of women and he enjoyed their intellectual companionship. Susan swain but hes so passionate. Kristie miller he is very passionate and very eloquent. And so, when you marry those traits and the letters that he wrote to ellen after they were engaged are just the most astonishing love letters you will ever see. And she was quite eloquent too. Susan swain some of the love letters of Woodrow Wilson to ellen are preserved at princeton universitys manuscript library. Were going to learn about them next. W. Barksdale maynard princeton to the presidency here on these shelves are the correspondence between woodrow and ellen, their love letters, really. And its got to be the largest collection of love letters exchanged between any future president and future first lady. W. Barksdale maynard in fact these letters and sealed in a trunk when the wilsons moved to Prospect House in 1902 and the trunk wasnt opened until the 1960s. So its a time capsule shedding extraordinary light on the wilsons life together. Woodrow is living in baltimore going to Johns Hopkins and he writes to ellen, january, 1894, my own darling, when you come into my study and kiss me as i sit at my desk, it is odd how this attachment of yours to me seems part of the force of my mind. Oh, darling, i trust it is not wrong to worship you as i do. You are the presiding genius of both my mind and heart. And in that fact consists the happiness and the strength of your own woodrow. I think in this letter we see the extent to which Woodrow Wilson not only loved ellen but acknowledged in this very, very clear way his intellectual debt to her. Now in how many cases can you say that, that the first lady and husband, that he is stepping forward and saying, i acknowledge that you are the source of so much, not only of my happiness but of my intellectual development, that you introduced me to literature, to wordsworth, to browning. They would sit together on the campus, on cannon green, in front of nassau hall and they would read wordsworth together, sitting in the grass. He acknowledges this profoundly Important Role that ellen plays in his life. She writes back to woodrow and she says to him, how can i thank you, dearest, for the sweet things you say in todays letter. How happy it makes me that you think such things of me even when i feel with a heartache how sadly unworthy i am of it all. I too trust it is not wrong to worship you as i do. I had as well question if it would be wrong to breathe. Both are inevitable if i had to live at all for i am, in every breath, altogether your own ellen. Often she doesnt respond to him quite as passionately as he writes to her because she does tend to be a bit melancholy. But in this, there is an exuberance that is really delightful. Ellen was so devoted to him, you sense in that letter how she puts herself second to his needs again and again, throughout their life together, she is serving him and helping him. That was her conception of what her role was as Woodrow Wilsons and as she is dying in the white house, that tragic summer, august, 1914 with the world about to enter into a Great International convulsion with world war i about to break out, shes dying in the white house and she grabbed the hand of dr. Grayson and she whispers to him, doctor, if i go away, promise me that you will take good care of my husband. Susan swain kristie, it might be hard to answer this question for regina schrumky on twitter, but she asked, where would we rank the love between these two amongst all president ial couples . Kristie miller i have not made a thorough study of the love of all president ial couples but it seems to me it would be it would be hard to come up to their level. And john cooper pointed out to me this very nice line in arthur links collection of Woodrow Wilsons letters. Kristie miller john . John Milton Cooper jr. arthur link was the greatest wilson scholar there was ever was or i think ever will be. And he edited the papers of Woodrow Wilson, the 69 volume edition. John Milton Cooper jr. and in the volume that the cover is august, 1914 and ellens death, the editors and here it is, this is in the introduction of this very stately monumental, scholarly thing, we, the editors, bid a fond farewell to ellen wilson, whom we have all come to love, you know, and thats over the years, that it could affect them that much. Susan swain Woodrow Wilson, president ial inaudible says on twitter, asked ellen to marry him just five months after meeting her. She must have quickly captured his heart. Susan swain so they got married when . Kristie miller well, they got married two years later. Woodrow had a great strategy. He had had a girlfriend before and she had refused his offer of marriage. And so, i think he was, you know, once burned twice shy. So he had decided that he was going to propose to ellen just before getting on the train to go to baltimore and attend Johns Hopkins in Political Science, so that if she refused him there would be no awkward lingering he later said. So they had met each other by chance in this town where neither of them lived. They were just passing through and he persuaded her to stay for a couple of extra days and to meet his family. But when he proposed to when he proposed to her, she was so startled that she blurted out, yes. She hadnt meant to but she blurted this out and they had hardly known each other, but he was going off to study for two years. So they had a twoyear engagement since they didnt know each other very well. It was these marvelous letters through which they became intimate. Susan swain mary kay is watching us in san roselle , california. First question on the phone, youre on the air. Yes, good evening. Thank you so much for this series. Im loving every minute. I was wondering what the first lady and the president thought of the pickets in front of the white house for suffrage in 1917. Kristie miller well, this would be back to edith. And they were very indignant, especially edith was very indignant. She felt they were rude. At one point woodrow offered to send to have them come in to the white house and get warm and have hot coffee and they indignantly refused. Kristie miller as i said earlier, edith did not believe in suffrage for women, and so, she thought that all of this was quite foolish. There were two separate organizations and one of them was trying to go about amending the constitution in a state by state way, in other words have suffrage passed in the various states and then get more people in congress who supported it. And so, woodrow received the members of the National Association and also the womens suffrage association, National American women suffrage association. And some people believed that it was the extremism of the National Womens party with alice paul that kind of allowed the more conservative groups to make progress because they were seeing its a lot less threatening. Susan swain were going to come back to his early years with ellen and his life before politics. Hes the only president to move from the presidency of a university to politics and into the white house. Princeton, of course, a central role in his life, how does he get to princeton and how does he get to the presidency of princeton . John Milton Cooper jr. well, first of all he was a presbyterian ministers son and princeton had sort of severed its ties, its official ties with the church. But it still is a very presbyterian school, and if you were a bright, young man of that and that princeton was a place to go. And it was kind of a stepout from the south too, you know. He did up into the world, so he went there as an undergrad and he studied law briefly, practiced law briefly and went to hopkins. And as kristie was saying taught his first teaching job was at bryn mawr, you know, a brand new college for women. He actually liked teaching there. He liked the women at bryn mawr better than ellen did. Ellen objected more to this sort of modern woman than he did. He got back to princeton in 1890. He became the most popular professor there. Basically he was one of two really, real stars of the faculty. And there was some intrigue among the trustees and everything to get into the presidency but he got chosen president in 1902. And then he tried to reform princeton and succeeded a bit and failed quite a bit, and really got stymied when the new jersey bosses came along and offered him the nomination and the governorship. He took from them and then he turned on and immediately became a reformer. That kind of a lot of things maybe in the frontrunner, quite early, so he made a remarkable transition in two years. He went from being a University President susan swain and the governor of new jersey. John Milton Cooper jr. in two years, to being president. I mean and the governorship is just a little an interlude there, although hes a very effective governor. I mean, wilson is one of these people, with the exception of the law, which his heart was never in, he succeeded in everything he did. He is one of the great Political Science he was a great scholar. He was a great University President. I mean, he was the best known and the most effective University President of his time. Hes ranked among the best governors and then hes one heck of an effective president too. Susan swain and one we love the interconnections here. Grover cleveland, after he left the white house went to princeton to practice law because it was difficult for a former president to do much else when you were and is it true that the families knew each other and the children even played together . Kristie miller i dont know about the children playing together but i do know that they knew each other. Susan swain well, were going to show you Prospect House which is the house that the wilsons lived in the princeton campus. It was at that time the president s house. Today its used for social functions. But as we look at it were going to learn about ellen and Woodrow Wilsons Political Partnership and how that developed. W. Barksdale maynard this is the study at Prospect House and it looks very much as it did when woodrow and ellen wilson lived here. So this would have been Woodrow Wilsons office. His desk would have been right here. And here he would have met with students, faculty, University President s, visiting people from across the world. And its here that he and ellen might have met to confer, frankly, about University Business because ellen wilson was highly involved with Woodrow Wilsons career. She gave him advice on what jobs he should take, what jobs he shouldnt take when he was up for a post at arkansas industrial university, she suggested perhaps that was a bad career move. She was very, very involved and a tremendous help to him, behind the scenes, throughout his academic career. I find this room this study at Prospect House so evocative because its right here that we can see Woodrow Wilson making that transition from academic figure to political figure. Ellen wilson helped with all of this. Constantly advising woodrow, helping him out and then he decides to run for governor and the reporters descend on prospect. The reporters descend on his study. They interview him right here in this room. They photograph him in the garden and ellen wilson is quite alarmed. She begins to sense that shes going to lose any privacy she might have had. Shes going to lose that carefully constructed, very close knit home life that she had valued so much with woodrow and with her three daughters, thats going to slip away when they plunge into politics. So they moved into Prospect House as a young academic couple, full of dreams, full of ambitions that when she leaves Prospect House and frankly, theyre almost driven out by the trustees in 1910, when she leaves shes bitter, shes exhausted and what awaits her is this political life thats going to take a tremendous toll on her, personally, in terms of her exhaustion, in terms of her energy and psychologically. Susan swain and as his supportive spouse, how did her responsibilities change as you move from a University President s wife, shes the first lady of new jersey and then ultimately, into the white house. Kristie miller well, she was building on each of the things that shed done before. She had been involved in a small way with some social outreach during the time that she was a private person and then when she became first lady of new jersey, she became very interested in social welfare. She actually took woodrow on a tour to new jersey to look at state welfare institutions like the home for the insane or the prisons. So she had an early record of activism among social welfare groups. She also, of course, had to do a great deal of entertaining, during the dinner that was given after Woodrow Wilsons inauguration in 1902, she invited booker t. Washington to the horror of her southern aunt, this great africanamerican educator. So she had a great deal of entertaining to do as the president s wife, more, of course, when she moves into the Governors Mansion and at one point, they were down in the in the summer home. They didnt have a Governors Mansion, but the state of new jersey supplied a summer home down in sea girt, new jersey. And a little boy got lost and wandered into sea girt and came out afterwards and he was asked, did you meet the governor . And he said, yes. And she gave me a piece of cake. Susan swain what was her role in the campaign in 1912 . John Milton Cooper jr. i dont think she did an awful lot in the campaign. Kristie miller what was interesting about the campaign was that she was, i believe, the first future first lady to go on a campaign before the convention. She and wilson went down through the south, especially in georgia where she was hailed as much as he was, unfortunately, they lost georgia. They didnt get the delegates from georgia. And she had a hand in trying to get woodrow to patch up relations with William Jennings bryan, who had three times been the democratic nominee was kind of the leader of the democratic party. And john i think he was very key in helping woodrow get the nomination. John Milton Cooper jr. well, well yes, it was susan swain bryan, you mean . Kristie miller yes. John Milton Cooper jr. she saw she saw an opportunity. Wilson had come from a different wing of the party. Hed said some things about bryan that some of his enemies had publicized to try to make trouble. And she saw a chance. Ellen saw a chance to mend the fences there. And she brought them together and they hit it off very well. Bryan and wilson had a good relationship, right down to some of the unfortunate stuff in world war i. So shes playing the same kind of role that she played in his academic career. Very a very shrewd tactician, a very good facilitator. Not out in front. Not out in public. She didnt particularly like that role either, but that she was awfully shrewd, awfully shrewd person. Susan swain and it was Theodore Roosevelts challenge to his own party by forming a Bull Moose Party in his independent bid that split the republicans and help bring Woodrow Wilson into the white house. Susan swain if you had to capsulize his political philosophy, what was it . John Milton Cooper jr. Woodrow Wilsons . Susan swain yes,. John Milton Cooper jr. he called himself a progressive democrat. And he really believed he believed in a strong government, but it was a government to make it possible for people to do things for themselves. John Milton Cooper jr. he once said that i dont want a big brother government. I dont want a government that will take care of me. I want a government that will make sure that other people take their hands off me, so that i can take care of myself. John Milton Cooper jr. you know, its very much it i think it is i think it is updated liberalist. Its the individuals happiness, the individuals selfrealization, thats the great contrast of theodore roosevelt. That campaign in 1912, i think it is the best weve ever had by far, because what you get is really a debate of political philosophies between these two men. Susan swain lee is watching us from durango, colorado. Susan swain hi, lee , thanks for waiting. Youre on. Lee lee thank you for taking my call. I have a question about the alley bill that was so important to ellen wilson and that did such a wonderful thing for the city of washington d. C. And also id like to comment on edith wilson, she was more of a hindrance than a help. Joseph tumulty, a major adviser to the president wrote in numerous letters during his illness and they werent discovered unopened until after his after her death. Susan swain thank you so much for your call. Were going to just let her comment about ediths stand , but she asked about ellens alley bill. What was that . Kristie miller yes. When they came to the white house, ellen felt that as long as she was in the white house, not a place where she particularly wanted to be, she would use her position to do as much good as she could. Kristie miller and she connected with a group called the National Civic federation that had been around for 10 years or so. And they were very interested in trying to clean up these little alleyways in between the bigger streets of washington where there was tumble down shacks, great squalor. Kristie miller they wanted to tear down these buildings and do what we would now call urban renewal. Ellen was so interested in this project that she actually took some of the congressmen in the white house car through the alleyways to show them this the conditions of these houses that were right behind the capitol. And she lobbied them to pass a bill that would enable this because at that time washington washingtons government was run by congress, they didnt have their own government. So she was i think the first first lady who lobbied for a cause that wasnt her husband outside of the white house and she was very, very effective at doing this. And i dont know if you want to talk about all of what happened here. Susan swain and well come back to that story because its connected with her passing. Kristie miller right. Susan swain she inaudible the wilsons decided not to have an inaugural ball, why is that . Kristie miller well, its partly because its ellen. Ellen felt that it would really be a commercialization, something frivolous at what should be a solemn occasion. She was a very thrifty woman. Woodrow did not make a lot of money in his early days and she had a habit of frugality. Kristie miller somebody once said, mrs. Wilson looks sweeter every year and that brown dress she wears looks sweeter every year, because she never got new clothes. She prided herself on being thrifty. And she just thought the inauguration the inaugural balls were frivolous. Susan swain william is watching us in new york city. Susan swain hi, william, youre on. William william yes. Thank you very much. In new york, theres often mention of the wilson girls in society, can you tell us a bit about their growing up and entering adulthood . Susan swain thank you so much, about three daughters to white house. Kristie miller yes. And they were all, sort of, roughly marriageable age when they get into the white house, so they go to balls and parties. Ellen is on record as saying that she doesnt approve of modern dances like the turkey trot. Kristie miller but somebody else writes and says that the i think its Ellen Morey Slayton , who was a very wonderful gossipy wife of a congressman and she kept a diary. And she said that they had been seen down at the military barracks, turkey trotting with the rest with the best of them, so she tried to keep a rein on her daughters and two of them, in fact, did get married in the white house and considering that she was only in the white house for 17 months before she died, thats quite an accomplishment. She had a very big wedding for her first daughter who was married in november. She had a very small quiet wedding for this for her third daughter who got married in may very shortly before ellen was bedridden. Susan swain chad is in baltimore. Youre up next. Chad chad hello. I wanted to know after ellen wilson passed away and before Woodrow Wilson married edith galt, is it true that his daughter margaret became de facto first lady during the time between the death of her mother and her fathers marriage . Kristie miller well, i think she was the hostess. She was the official hostess. There has to be an official hostess. One of woodrows cousins helen bones also helped her helped her out in this. Margaret didnt much want to be in the official hostess. She wanted to be a singer. And she preferred to go to new york, which is where she felt there were more opportunities to be a singer, so i think that the two of them tried to cope with the with the social duties and the social season was curtailed. And i think on the advice of ellens social secretary belle hagner, she felt that there had been a precedence during the Harrison Administration when his wife had died, theyve curtailed the social season, so there wasnt too much entertaining that margaret had to do. Susan swain thats why her short tenure in the white house, ellen wilson also brought us the as a nation the famous rose garden in the white house. Well learn more about that in our next video. W. Barksdale maynard were in prospect garden here in princeton, new jersey. This is a garden that ellen wilson originally designed when she was resident of Prospect House from 1902 to 1910. And i think that here we see the full expression of ellens esthetic vision. She is an oil painter, very competent. She knows a lot of the american impressionist painters of the day. She loves to paint landscapes and as a corollary to that, she lays out this extraordinarily beautiful garden here at Prospect House. She plants the cedar trees. She plants roses and all kinds of flowers. And in fact, she loves this garden so much that she hates to leave it when the wilsons enter politics and they leave princeton. When ellen wilson is in the white house, she brings the white house gardener back here to this garden at Prospect House. And she says to the white house gardener, lets recreate the rose section of this garden at the white house. Because ellen wilson could look out of her bedroom window in the prospect mansion, she could look right down and see the flowers all day and similarly, she wanted the president of the United States to be able to see roses when he looked out at his window in the white house. And, of course, this becomes the famous rose garden at the white house. Ellen tragically doesnt live to see the rose garden completed, however. Shes dying in the summer of 1914. Shes wheeled out into the space outside in a wheel chair and she watches as the gardener works, but she doesnt live to see the completion of this vision she had for roses blooming at the white house. And thats the vision that really begins here at prospect garden in princeton. Susan swain so ellen wilson who didnt live to see it brought us the rose garden, which has really become part of our national lexicon, so often president ial events are held in the rose garden. Here again is the photograph of what it look like during the Wilson Administration and heres what the rose garden looks like today. And we have her short tenure in the white house. We have just a list of things that she did during the 17 months. We talked about the alley clearance bill. We talked about the rose garden. And the fact that she was a professional artist, one of the first ladies who brought her own profession to the white house. How significant was that in setting a standard for future first ladies . Kristie miller i dont think it really set a standard for future first ladies. Ellen did earn money from selling her paintings that she donated to a charity that she had set up for her brother in her in the memory of her brother who had died. Kristie miller i think the only other first lady who earned money while she was in the white house was eleanor roosevelt. That did not become a first lady tradition and just as well, i think. Susan swain next is harran in greenfield, california. You are on the air. Welcome to our conversation. Harran harran hello . Susan swain hello . Harran harran yes. Yes. Thank you for taking my call. Ive enjoyed your show very much. This is my second time calling. The last time i called, it was during your first season when you were talking about the two wives of john tyler. So i very much enjoyed your show, so far. Harran so my question is about Woodrow Wilsons first wife, ellen, when she passed away, where was she buried . And when her husband passed away, he was interred in the Washington Cathedral in washington d. C. And was his first wifes body reinterred and be buried next to him and also where was his second wife buried when she passed away. Susan swain thank you. John Milton Cooper jr. well, the answer to that to the question about is ellen reinterred with woodrow . The answer is no. She was she was buried in the family plot the axson family plot in rome, georgia. When woodrow died, edith was pretty determined that he was not going to be buried with ellen. You know that you know, and so then the choice was, hed been the president of princeton and the president s at princeton are buried in a very nice cemetery down witherspoon street there, but there have been some ill feeling and still was, so that was out. In the meantime a very ambitious bishop of washington, mr. Freeman wanted to get famous people buried in the cathedral. And so, hed gotten admiral dewey. And he this is when Washington Cathedral was still a very new building and so he approached edith about this and she liked the idea