summer to hiroshima and nagasaki. how did this come about? ifton: it was a long time coming. my son wesley brought home a book about a real little girl living in hiroshima who was two years old when it exploded. she survived the bombing but contracted radiation-induced leukemia nine years later. she followed that if you could fold origami cranes you are granted a wish and hers was to live. it did not work she fulton more than 1000 and died of leukemia and again 55. died of leukemia in 1955. we finally met at the world trade center in may of 2010, and at that point hiro invited me to come to nagasaki and hiroshima. expectationsve about what this trip would be about? clifton: no. really --e i was just wish't know the word, his broughtcontact was what me. his desire that i come that it would be a good idea is what won me over. it didn't take me much persuading. at that point my expectations were wide-open. caller: was this -- host: was this an official trip? clifton: no official capacity at all. host: it got extensive press coverage on both sides of the pacific. did that surprise you? clifton: it did. i have been told look at we have tried to arrange a lot of press coverage but that it got the play that it did was a surprise. sense thathave any you were being used toward an aim or a goal? clifton: -- none at all. his wish was solely to bring us together and symbolically to bring our two countries together in this. not even for a moment that i think he had any motive than that. host: who went with you? clifton: my wife and my two sons. host: how long were you there? clifton: we were there 10 days. august 1 to august 11 which covers both anniversaries. citieseled between the by bullet train. we were there for almost a full 10 days. host: was it your first trip to japan? clifton: first ever. host: what were your overall impressions? clifton: it is a beautiful country. they have to live on only 25-30% of the islands. the rest is mountainous. beautiful houses, rice fields, very colorful. wesley, and bringing home that book years ago, brought home japan into our house. that included sushi, kimonos, travel videos. we began to enjoy the country from a distance as a lot of americans to anyway with anime and japanese fashion and japanese foods. host: and cell phones. clifton: thank you to the japanese for the cell phones. he brought it into our home. there were times during the trip that every once in a while we would look around and go --we are in japan! it was nice to be in the country. host: you went to these important cities which preserve the history on the use of nuclear weapons, but it is worth knowing the japan itself is struggling with its peaceful use of nuclear because it is still in the aftermath of the meltdown of the reactor. how did that factor in? clifton: in meeting with survivors -- we met a total of 24 survivors. five from nagasaki and the rest from hiroshima. very often in the conversation about their experience 67 years ago came the current issues with the fukushima plant and the radiation. i think that really rocked them to the core. having it happen again. new victims of nuclear power. very many are against nuclear power in that country. clifton: -- host: we'll get started with what is going to be a two-hour conversation with video. most of it was shot by your son. how did that come about? goingn: i was originally on the trip by myself, but as things go people in the family began to be interested, i've began to think about them one at a time. first my wife polly, then i invited my younger boy in the minute i did that polly said, nice move now you have to invite wesley because he started all of this and you cannot leave him out of this. and she was right. wesley jumped at the chance and is a recent theater school graduate and weilds amine videocamera -- wields a mean videocamera. so you will help narrate along the way and set the stage for what we are seeing. we should explain how you ended up he or on c-span -- how you ended up here on c-span. i have beenarently, working with c-span on adult for 15years -- on and off for years. different projects. we have done historic symposia and programs at the truman library. it just seemed natural. host: we are interested to see the video and share them with our audience. we will get started with your first visit to the hiroshima -- you and i say this were differently and i talked about it before i started. iro-shee-ma. h the only person i asked about this was the former mayor of hiroshima, and he said it doesn't matter. americans pronounce it the way they will pronounce it. the japanese pronunciation is different. they don't put an accent on the syllable, it is more a strengthening -- i couldn't fathom the escalation very well, but essentially he said it doesn't matter to them. host: both are acceptable to japanese gears. i will do my best to mimic yours. set the stage for us on the peace park in that city. large, 1.4day is million people. memorial a part of the city? clifton: it is the center. the heart of the city. it is a beautiful park full of memorials of one kind or another. the peace museum itself, the it really is a, beautiful park. hiroshima calls itself the city of peace. so does nagasaki. there are very much aware of their role in the world as cities of peace. they take it very seriously. it is a beautiful place and central -- not only to the city itself but to the city's character. host: we'll see the peace memorial park as you saw it on that date. [video clip] [chatter in japanese] host: tell us what we are seeing here. clifton: we are standing at the sadako. to you see the statue holding an origami paper crane. the neath that is a bell -- beneath that isabel. bell.eath that is a drapedle memorial is with colored paper cranes. are put into chains. you do not only see it at sadako's memorial but all over nagasaki. chains and ropes with bright paper cranes. there you are on camera, the gentleman next year we will see him him a toga -- we will see him, too. it is funny. me hiso has not told full story of the experience with the bomb. i don't know if that is on purpose or that we have been occupied with other things, but i do not know exactly what happened to masahiro on that day. it is also impressive the press coverage. clifton: i don't know how american celebrities do it. host: with a asking you questions? they asking you questions? clifton: at this point they are just filming. there is a paper crane hanging beneath the bell. this was -- masahiro wanted to do this this way and the press was allowing him to do that. i think we will also see his son yugi. host: how old is he? clifton: 42 or 41. they work together. host: you get a sense of how urban this memorial is. clifton: this goes up between two rivers. at the tip of the peace park is the bridge which was the central aiming point for the bombers. host: now you are ringing the bell. what is the significance? clifton: ringing the bell to honor the children killed in the bomb. host: is it true they hold the ceremony each year on the bombing date? clifton: each year. 67 years later it is still very well attended. you get close to the date and it is impossible to get a hotel room. host: internationally or mostly japanese? clifton: mostly japanese but we saw plenty of non-japanese at the ceremony. -- i don't know if it was this day, but a couple days later we ran into a documentary film crew from iran. host: one thing that i read sent this, the americans the u.s. ambassador to the peace ceremony for the first time two years ago. clifton: he was there again. host: what is the japanese american view? why did it take 67 years for an american investor to attend -- for an american ambassador to attend? clifton: i'm not sure. i know that he just wanted to go quietly and take part. which is essentially what i wanted to do. host: didn't have much luck. [laughter] clifton: didn't have much luck at it. he went this year and a slightly more public vein and he was also at that nagasaki ceremony as well. host: we will see a more formal meeting between you and those interested prep people around if -- around you. anticipate a press conference? clifton: masahiro and company let me know this was going to happen. it would follow a pattern. we would go somewhere and they would follow us and after we had we would we would do, step off to the side and they would ask questions. then we would go to the next thing. host: how much thought i did to what you wanted to say before you were in front of cameras? clifton: not enough. m was to go and be present. to listen and be a part of it. i was probably not as prepared as i should have been. at least not as with something that would roll tripping lee off inglyongue -- roll tripp off the tongue. in the end it turned out to the appropriate. i don't think i ever could have gone there and just nailed something. host: before we hear your answers can you put into words what you were feeling? clifton: i was hopeful. in a couple interviews with japanese press here in the states. they were very well received and seemed open to the idea. they liked the idea that stories were well received in japan. i was hoping this would continue but at the same time wary. not everybody likes the idea. it was not universally accepted to be a good thing that harry truman's grandson had shown up at the ceremonies. i was hopeful but wary for what the questions would bring. i was worried, that i would be able to answer them well. listen in to the questions and how well you did at answering them. this is one of the first press conference is on-site in hiroshima with clifton truman daniel. >> [inaudible] [bell ringing] clifton: it is hard to put into words. >> [inaudible] clifton: i want to thank masahiro. i am honored to have been invited to hiroshima. translation] clifton: i also want to thank masahiro and eugene for telling and using it as a gesture of peace and reconciliation. translation] [camera shutters click] >> first of all, i would like to makingou mr. daniel, for a decision to come to hiroshima. i thank you very much for your courageous decision. i would like to express my deep felt appreciation for your decision. perhaps there are various differing views and opinions, but mr. daniel has embraced them all in his big heart and i thank him for this as well. >> [speaking japanese] future, you will be traveling to hiroshima and nagasaki as well. i hope we will see things as they really are and in the future, for the next generation's children, we will work together and come up with to establisheas peace in this world. [speaking japanese] >> shall we go forward? over there, is about where the atomic bomb was dropped and this is the epicenter. japanese]ng host: clifton truman daniel, we are watching your first visit to the epicenter where the bomb was dropped in hiroshima in august, 1945. we should say that it was a very warm day there. in the background, we are hearing lots of noise of crickets. clifton: cicadas. host: which adds to the heat you are experiencing. you are now moving onto what aspect and what is the significance? clifton: what we were just looking at there is what is commonly referred to as the atomic bomb dome. it was an industrial prefectural hall built in 1918 and had a couple different names. as the war went on they changed it to reflect the wartime footing. it was one of the few western styled stone buildings in hiroshima at the time and survived the blast. although, the explosion occurred nearly directly above it. everybody in the building was killed, but the structure survived very much intact, with the steel of the dome still standing. it has become a worldwide symbol for the destruction in hiroshima and the rebirth afterwards. host: as a symbol, how did it resonate? clifton: i got a chill. i had been looking at pictures of that dome for years. it is very common in history and literature about the atomic bombing of hiroshima. i had been seeing it for years. it is really something to stand and look at it and to be near it. host: here is an image of the two of you. the japanese survivor and yourself the grandson of harry truman walking arm in arm. do you or member that happening and where you struck by the symbolism for the press? -- when iasahiro first arrived in tokyo there were tough questions about apology. having fielded some of those and having not been ready for that, i was a little worried -- i was worried for the rest of the trip. so the rest of that day i fretted on the train going to hiroshima -- have i done the right thing? is this going to be a positive experience for people here and in the united states? is this something i should be doing? in the peacesahiro park when he first saw me, he gave me a hug and threw his arm around me and at that moment i knew that it would be all right. sahiro, that was very much what we wanted to convey. coming together. embarked didyou you seek any guidance from historians or people who worked at your grandfather's library about what to expect and how the symbolism might be read? clifton: i did not. i talked to the folks at the truman library regularly. chatw i was going and we about it from time to time but it did not directly seek advice on how to behave or interpret or take it. host: in retrospect does that seem naive? clifton: [laughter] it might have been. again, i did not want it to be rehearsed. i did not want to go having the answers, i just wanted to go. host: did you ever feel that you said things you wish you hadn't said? clifton: no. found from time to time that i wished i had said things better. but i never came away with having said anything that i should not have. host: we should understand, because we have been talking about it, what are your views about your grandfather's decision to drop the bomb? me.ton: [sighs] forgive i am staying away from that. i'm not looking at whether it was the right thing or the wrong thing to do. there are opinions on both sides as masahiro alluded to in those clips. i was simply struck bym masahiro's wish to bring people together, the survivors that we had who had the same wish to bring together this reconciliation. not to debate whether it was a good decision or moral decision. whether it ended the war early, or whether japan would have capitulated anyway will be debated for a time to come. grandson,ry truman's no matter how i feel about the decision, or whether it ended the war early or didn't, i can still feel for the people who were affected by that decision. i can still take steps to make sure to do what i can so that we do not do that to each other again. make thean did decision to end the war shortly after the two bombs were dropped in hiroshima and nagasaki. andwe will take a look back time at the origins of the war in japan. 1941, as many of you know japan launched a surprise attack in pearl harbor, hawaii. the national parks service which keeps the more real at pearl harbor -- which keeps the memorial at pearl harbor has done a series of interviews with survivors. allowed acer was quart of booze per week. summary had a black book of the girls names and we were headed over the valley to a party on the beach. never happened. and i had ad asleep bunkmate named bernie malcolm. the building started rattling. we didn't think too much about it. when we heard a big boom without we better get up and see. we got up and i guess we looked out and saw that it was more than what we thought. you could see a jet plane go up. we went back and got dressed and into the water's edge which was roughly 100 yards and watched the arizona sink and nine minutes. was just spellbound and could not think what to do. sailorse ship blew up, started coming ashore with their skin peeling off their backs and their arms. all full of oil. we helped them out of the water and i remember distinctly taking one man named flanagan and took him to the hospital. when you get to the hospital, there was a doctor. the first doctor would look the men over and if he thought he could save him, he would say go here. if he thought he could not save him right off, he went down to the second line and that was the fellows they did not think would make it. the rule was if you are physically aboard the ship, your remains can be enterred in the ship. we are working on a program so that anyone was part of the crew on december 7 can have that privilege. that is number one. in second thing is, back 1981 or before that, my son was an ensign on a ship. bad that it was too nothing had ever been done so that the fellows on the ship december 7 could not come back and have eight memorial service or something. so i worked on that. i succeeded. we had 75 or 100 people who were survivors of the crewna, or a former ship's going back to 1960 -- 1916 or their relatives. we got that started and in 1981 we had 300 people out there. , us the way it is. oh. yesterday, we went back to the ship which we always do the first a we get in. then we had a beautiful memorial service. i learned how to get the army or the government to do things for you that i did not know before. we had the marine band and the cover guard and the firing squad. because we were the uss arizona, they closed the memorial up there. all the flags were flying just like on an important day. beautiful. who: that was joe landel was a survivor of the japanese attack on pearl harbor. in an oral history reported by the u.s. parks service. we are talking with clifton truman daniel who and august made a personal trip with his family to the two cities that harry truman, his grandfather, dropped the atomic bombs on in 1945 and about his emotional experience from that journey, sharing video that his son shot. had to have met lots of american veterans. what is that like? clifton: it often happens after one of these events that the gentleman in their 70's or 80's will come up and shake my hand and look me in the eye and say if it had not been for your granddaddy, i would not be here today. they were staging to invade the japanese main islands. many had already thought their way -- fought their way through the pacific islands in the campaign. they had been through that and were facing what many considered to be an even worse fight for the japanese home islands. host: this happened some 13 years before you were even born. you are one of four grandsons of harry truman. do you feel some special responsibility for your family legacy to be looking at the complete history of his presidency? clifton: not looking at the complete history. i have always approach this as a grandson. i looked at him as my grandfather and a human being. so, i have always -- the books i have written in the programs i have done have been about the private harry truman about what he was thinking and feeling. as a grandchild of the u.s. president, you do feel responsibility for his legacy, to continue it, to add to it if i can, to keep it going. board ofhe honorary the truman library in minnesota. a lot of children or grandchildren of presidents feel the same way. that is part of who we are. so i feel a responsibility for various aspects of it. host: is this something your brothers also shared? clifton: it seems particular to me. my youngest brother thomas has been to some events. and has gone to some on his own he doesn't do it as much as i do. but he feels that same sense of pride and responsibility. host: when you get one generation removed, your sons, how interested are they? clifton: wesley took a great deal of interest in this project. he enjoyed the filming and enjoyed being in japan. my younger son enjoyed being there and enjoy the history. at the age of 15 he has already had some in school, but now he has had a serious history lesson up close this summer. someday bringing survivors to talk to his school or the other schools in chicago. host: as we saw from the pearl harbor survival, all these years later still tremendously emotional. you saw the same kind of emotion in japan. that must have been a lot to reconcile for yourself and your children. clifton: there are a lot of similarities. these are human beings on both sides who have been through something horrendous. they've fought. they have bled. they have lived through a lot of things that none of us can imagine. grandson, iman's choose to honor both. sacrifice, and the sacrifice of american serviceman fighting their way through the pacific, and a little girl like sadako who died as the result of an atomic bombing. when i first met yugi and masahiro in new york, at one point they opened a box and took out a small paper crane and dropped it into my hand and told me that was the last one sadako had folded before she died. you have her crane in one hand and the hands of 80-year-old u.s. serviceman who would not be alive if the bomb had not been dropped. you have to honor both. host: up next we will listen to harry truman himself, in his own worlds. televisionu.s. program in the mid-1960's called "decision: the conflict of harry s truman. " this is a brief clip where he talks about his thought process and making the decision. truman: our enemy had started the war. they had killed billions of chinese and thousands of other asiatics. [drums] pres. truman: previous to the explosion of the atomic bomb we had taken okinawa. a japanese island off the southern coast of japan. [explosions] pres. truman: taking that island, we had to kill 110,000 japanese and we lost 12,000 of our own. ♪ explosions] ♪ officers,an: japanese when they are defeated usually and then use 10 grenades to kill themselves with, which is a horrible way to die. it would take a long time before i would hold a grenade in my hand and let it blow me up. it gave us some idea of what we had to do to defeat japanese in the war. planned,step, already was a big invasion of japan. of united states is commander in chief of the armed forces, and i had to help plan the normal inflation. l" input that "norma quotation marks. the chief of staff had to envision the invasion without considering the atomic bomb. it was estimated that the land 250,000st 700,000 men, to be killed and 500,000 to the maimed for life. >> there is a perverse cleanliness in a normal war. the atom bomb is abnormal. pres. truman: i don't mind telling you that you don't feel normal when you have the navy ready to evacuate 30,000 wounded in the first 30 days, or to set up hospitals in the philippines and other islands to prepare for 54,000 deaths. at each beachhead, you call for an lst boat loaded with blood. you plan that the ship will have about 12 hours life expectancy kamakazis, and plan for the deaths of 600,000 american boys who are alive and joking and having fun while you are doing your planning. it will break your heart and your head trying to figure out a way to save one life. my chief purpose was to and the war in victory, with the least possible loss of american lives. i never had any columns about using -- any qualms about using the instruments that avoided having several hundred thousand killed or maimed. [gunshots] truman: the constitution of united states is dedicated to the common defense. i had sworn to uphold and protect the constitution and i had no alternative. host: that was president truman in the midnight and 60's reflecting on his own words and his decision to drop the bomb on erosion and not a sake in february, 1945 -- on hiroshima february, 1945 1945.ust, what is it like listening to your grandfather? clifton: well, historically we have always heard that us children. that is what he said and that is what he wrote in his memoirs. those reasons that he gave to end the war quickly and to save american lives he has said over and over again. host: for the young people watching, we should remind him about how soon into his presidency this happened. clifton: president roosevelt died april 12, 1945 and my grandfather became president. the first atomic bomb test was in mexico july 16 and the first bomb was dropped august 6. the history books tell us he was not aware of the program as he campaigned. clifton: looking back he relates he did know something about it as the head of the truman committee investigate in waste and fraud in the military complex, he had sent inspectors into tennessee where huge amounts of money were going to create components for the bombs. the secretary of war took him aside and said police stop that, this is a top-secret project. and my grandfather out of respect said, yes sir. we will even alone. the day after he became president, stimpson told him about the bombs and grandpa are membered about those -- remembered about those. he did not know what they were until the dayl after he became president that stimpson told him briefly. host: did you do special research on that period of history? clifton: i read everything that i could. i went back to read history books. i read my grandfather's memoirs. i read books on him and japan. a lot ofought us japanese travel videos. we tried to get a sense of the country, modern and historic. on all thethoughts mountains of research that you have been doing and the video that you shot and you're thinking -- where will it only -- where will it all lead? clifton: i am trying to put it into a book, and working with ari beezer. the grandson of lieutenant jacob ari and i are now working on funding a project to record survivor testimony and hopefully how's it at the -- house it at the truman library. host: the survivors are all getting up in years. clifton: there are only 200,000 left, but that sounds like a lot, but considering there were hundreds of thousands originally and there were a lot of people wounded in those attacks, and people who were affected downwind by black rain, raindrops carrying radiation -- there were a lot of people affected. on the edges of the cities, too. host: earlier we were talking about some japanese looking for an apology. there is the story you have about a japanese man asking your grandfather directly for one. clifton: one of the survivors we met had actually been to 1960's -- i in the believe it was a delegation from hiroshima that went to the truman library. i don't know that they went specifically asking for an apology, but that came up and he recalls those words. the head of the delegation asking, would you apologize for this? my grandfather politely, but firmly, said no. host: we should tell you this video was shot by whom? clifton: by wesley, my 23-year-old son. host: next is a 7.5 minute tour of the museum. this is run by an american? clifton: steve lieber. host: how did that come about? clifton: i'm not sure. butsh i had better answers, he is the first american director of the peace memorial museum and hiroshima. host: we will see some edited clips, but what does the museum do? clifton: it presents a very honest and thorough -- very unbiased history of the atomic bombing. they did their research very well. there are no accusations. it is very straightforward. therein lies its power. host: do you have any sense of how many -- clifton: i don't. host: let's get a brief look at this video inside the museum of hiroshima and the american director is giving you the tour. clifton: correct. [video clip] [indistinct crowd chatter] >> this is one thing i would like to show everybody. it is one of the things you don't think about. i just said the city was crushed in 10 seconds. int means all of the glass the city was shattered and turned into bullets. -- any little thing that can move starts flying through the air. like a bullet. all of the glass would suddenly emerge from their arm or be discovered somewhere. thatis the kind of thing just shows you really cannot beyond-- it is just what we can think. >> to put all this information in 1965,and 19 62 -- when did they relax the ban on information? in the early days they were not telling anybody. 1962.ended officially in after that make still haven't kept most of the films, pictures and everything else in their libraries. it wasn't available to us. film movementis where millions of japanese donated a little bit of money to buy back the film that was made here by a japanese person and taken to america and we had to buy it back. they bought it back. after that we had all the films. until then, we had never seen any of them. is that we have always said that this cloud reached 10,000 feet into the sky. now, it looks more like 20,000 feet. of course, according to someone who did an analysis of the picture, and did some sort of measuring the cloud and all this and that, i don't know how he did it but he said it was more like 20,000 feet. we have lots of pictures of the cloud, because it was such a spectacular thing. no one had ever seen a cloud like this. this is thelly, main cloud picture. this picture was taken from this island. you are on this island. if you were on the island you would have felt the blast. it would not have knocked you over but you would feel something. it was six kilometers away. this is happening 15 minutes after the bomb exploded. hiroshimae looking at and you see this over the city and you know -- you have no idea how this could possibly be. no cloud like this had been seen by humans before. with we are on tour clifton truman daniel in hiroshima and this is the museum on the bomb site that captures the experience for survivors in the country, being led by the american director. we were talking about how interesting it is that it has an american director. he is now showing you what? clifton: these are two manikins. that is the representation of skin hanging off of their arms and legs. this was a common sight in the immediate aftermath of the bombing. the fireball reached a temperature of 8000 degrees. it burned on the ground for 10 seconds. so, people were literally cooked. the skin was burned -- was seared, and as the blast wave came through behind the fireball the skin was peeled from their arms, legs and faces. it is dark. reporty of the survivors running into crowds of people, walking with their arms up and skin hanging down because to drop them to their sides and letting the blood rush into those areas was too painful. host: was it possible to survive? clifton: most of them did not. if they reached that stage they were dying. many of the survivors i spoke to reported these people having been burned so badly that they were calling for water. they were headed to the rivers. if you gave them water they died shortly after. i don't know if this is just being so parched that they could not absorb the water, but in nagasaki and hiroshima, especially not a sake, the cenotaph for the victims has a pool where you can scoop up water and trench the memorial stone as a gesture of finally giving those souls water. these depictions are trying to capture the magnitude. can you convey what you learned about that magnitude? clifton: both museums and hiroshima and nagasaki do a very good job of that, but it is unimaginable what this must have been like to be close to that hyper center where the fireball originated. you can see in the picture behind us, and americans have seen these photos for years in history books, what it did to the city. it flattened and burned. once everything had been flattened, fires started. in gas lines and wooden buildings -- wooden buildings raged throughout the city and it was an inferno. the firestorm was so intense it produced its own weather. lightning and other things. host: 70,000 died instantly and double that by the time the exposure victims died from their wounds. and an equal number of people in nagasaki? clifton: slightly less in nagasaki. the bomb was stronger, but the bombardier missed the mark and it dropped in a hilly area that protected some of the city from the devastation. host: the numbers i have seen there are 70,000 total. clifton: i thought it was 90, but in that ballpark. 70,000 in the two and other people -- clifton: more than 200,000. host: and the people living with their wounds -- clifton: still to this day. host: so, in the museum you were participating in another press conference and you were asked to sign that museum guestbook. this was full of symbolism. did you have any idea before you signed the guestbook what you were going to say? clifton: i had some time to think about it. they were asking for something simple and concise that would be remembered. i varied it a little bit and i had to write it in a couple different places, but i chose to listen or hear the living and make sure this never happens again, which is what each survivor when i finished talking, all he or she asked was, tell the story and let people know what this was like so that we do not ever do this again. is of thenext clip press conference held right after the museum tour, and is about 5.5 minutes long. [video clip] crowd chatter] >> he is signing in front of the board, which is a reproduction of the former nakashimo section. [indistinct crowd chatter] while there are various different discussions and opinions, what are your thoughts about your grandfather's decision? his decision to drop a bomb? >> [inaudible] clifton: as you say, when we were growing up, the history books talked about the bomb in japan. also, as you said there are other opinions, and other points of view. i don't think we'll ever finish talking about it. said,ahiro and yugi have the important thing is to keep talking. to talk about all of them and be here -- for me to be in hiroshima, or for yugi and masahiro who are working on donating cranes to the u.s. and pearl harbor, to keep talking and to keep those gestures. >>[speaking japanese] clifton: one that always strikes , yugi andt masahiro, two years ago, gave me a great gift. sadakot crane that folded. [inaudible] host: and there we saw your signature in the museum's visitors book. and our conversation you referenced the gift of that train, -- crane, and you talked about it in the press conference. for those who have not been with us the whole way, this crane symbolizes what? clifton: it symbolizes peace. people fold thousands and millions of paper cranes and rope them together and trade them over the memorials. sadako folded more than 1000 in a wish to cure herself of radiation induced leukemia in the 1950's when she was a little girl. that last crane that i held was the last when she folded before she died. her brother, masahiro, has held onto that. they have systematically donated most of her other paper cranes to memorial sites around the world including the uss memorial -- uss -- the u.s. eric arizona memorial in hawaii which they did just recently. her brother is 70? clifton: yes so she was three .nd sadako was two host: how are those 24 survivors assembled? asahiro had done the advance work. in preparing for this trip, they had asked survivors through survivor organizations in both cities, which of them would like to come and felt it was important and comfortable enough to come. he arranged the meetings. wos. came in ones and t there were a couple married couples. they had arranged for a room at the peace museum and hiroshima and other places that was convenient for these folks to come and sit and talk for an hour or two. host: you mentioned earlier that you hoped to do a survivor's oral history project. did you begin with these? clifton: i did not. i considered. i had a digital voice recorder and my first thought as a writer was take the pad, pencil and recorder and write down every word. i didn't because that really wasn't the reason i was there. i was there this time to listen and let them talk and the present with them. it didn't feel appropriate to me. going forward, when i go back to do further research on the book, which i hope to do, i will contact those folks again and we will have already had this established. clip we are going to see a of one conversation you have had. this is a female by the name of takami. can you tell us a little more? clifton: this was the first time -- i had met survivors here in the states, some of those i saw again and hiroshima and nagasaki. she had never given her testimony before. this was the first time she felt comfortable talking about it. a lot of survivors do not talk about it. endured -- not only was it horribly traumatic, but they endured stigma after the war. they were unclean. you could get infected with radiation if you are close to them and there was something wrong with them. a lot of them learned to be very quiet about this and keep it inside. this is the first time she shared her story and i believe it is because we were there. host: she is today 82 years old. let's listen in. [video clip] [speaking japanese] >> on my way home, i saw so many dead bodies. collapsed horses and destroyed houses and trains. i was seeing those kind of things and i tried to go back to my house. ing japanese] >> on the way to my house i was asked by so many people to give them water but it did not have any so i could not do anything for them. [speaking japanese] >> i don't know how long i had to walk at the time, but at the meat, i felt this mass of or probably human flesh, on the street at the bridge. >> [speaking japanese] >> the reason why i felt it was inan is i saw two eyeballs this mass of meat. the eyes were still shining. i felt like this person was giving me this message that i was still alive. >> [speaking japanese] >> it is really weird, but i didn't really feel any fear. i wasn't scared at all. it was just indescribable. i cannot really express myself. i could not really start walking. i still remember this clearly, what i felt, and i still feel these eyeballs looking at me. >> [speaking japanese] >> i felt that i could not really walk in the city, so i tried to use a different bridge. >> [speaking japanese] from the bridge i tried to go across, i tried to look down to the river, and i saw so many dead bodies floating on the surface of the river. >> [speaking japanese] i think that so many of those people suffered from burned skin and burned bodies and they wanted water so they jumped into the river. host: that is 80 -- 82-year-old sanaga, survivor of the bombings in her ocean a, telling -- of hiroshima, telling her story. you met with 24 survivors and you are listening to this woman tell her story for the first time. what did you see your role as? clifton: to be there. just to listen to her and let her speak to me. to let her do this for the first time. understanding that she was talking to the grandson of the men who made the decision -- meant what? itchy talk about that? -- did she talk about that? clifton: she did not. a lot of them who came to speak to us understood -- for her it was the first time. she spoke for the first time because it was my me and my family. she thought it was time. survivors -- as we said before a lot of them do not tell, but those who do, their stories as a means of education. as a means of reminding coming generations of the horrors of nuclear war so that we do not repeat it. her, itinstance, for was because this was a different opportunity. that was the catalyst for her coming to do it for the first time. i think it was for several others as well. host: you learned that there were also american victims of the bombing. can you tell us what you learned? americana dozen fighters who were shot down and captured were being kept in what was then a local police barracks in hiroshima. it was close to the hypo center and all 12 perished in the bombing. we met one japanese gentleman, shagaki mori who found out about -- i'm not sure if he knew about the soldiers beforehand. i think he did. i think they knew they were there. but after the war, and after things got back to some degree of normalcy, he realized that the families of the serviceman had no idea what happened to their loved ones. why would they? they were shot down and were prisoners of war. the american government did not know where they were housed. he spent years of his own time and his own money systematically tracking down the american families of the serviceman to tell them what had happened to their loved ones. host: we will meet mr. mori next. this is about five minutes long. >> the names of the p.o.w.'s were published december 2, 1984 in the new york times magazine. >> [inaudible] article and had their names on december 2, 1984. and then their graves are in a national park in st. louis missouri and their eight names are inscribed. there are two things i would like to convey to you mr. daniel. one, the names which have not been disclosed by the u.s. government are going to be disclosed, and the second one is regarding the news story known to some parts of the united states about p.o.w.'s being massacred at the bridge which was the 29th target, but the fact is that was a death by radiation. >> [speaking japanese] [reading the names] host: that is clifton truman daniel learning about the american flyers killed as well along with the japanese victims and the bombing of hiroshima. you are told about the story by a man who was himself the survivor of the bombings. did you have the opportunity to ask him his motivation for spending much of his life to connect american families with their loved ones so they would know their fate? clifton: we did not ask him specifically, but that is just the way mr. mori is. he felt empathy for the victims. he understood the tragedy in a larger sense. that this was a human tragedy and it transcended nationalities, that american victims had died along with japanese. i think it spoke to him and he felt compelled to let their families know what had happened. he felt badly that they didn't know. japanese had no idea what had happened to loved ones. the never found their bodies. many of the victims had disappeared. they were turned to ash and were carbonized. people did not find bodies. they had nothing to bury. nothing to grieve over. they were just gone. a lot of young children had been sent out to live communally, a lot of them with family members if they had them, expecting they would. come back after the war was over. they were sent away because they expected more mainstream air rates and they wound up -- air raids and they wound up orphans. their families just disappeared. that spoke to him. he understood that it happened on both sides. host: as you say it is reminiscent of the stories we heard in the 9/11 world trade center and later on will hear about one family's link between the two events. right now we are hearing about the americans who died in the event. in the next clip you will visit the police building. [video clip] thee are at this building, site of the former military police headquarters during the war. this is where they kept u.s. pow's.rmen interred as this site was new the epicenter. 12 american navy flyers were killed in the bombing of hiroshima. this memorial has been erected for them. >> [speaking japanese] there is a new building on this site, but how is the history recognized? clifton: you are about to see it on this clip. the only mention of those airmen is that plaque and those two small american flags. it is essentially the loading dock of an office building. up building had already gone by the time that mr. mori discovered where they had been. he then lobbied, and spent some of his own money, to have that plaque erected so they would not be forgotten. it is in keeping with some of the memorials in hiroshima. the hypo center itself is also a plaque. a small area because it is right next to . a hospital. the hospital being important, they were going to knock it down. in nagasaki, it is a part. they have a hollowed out area with an obelisk in the middle of it commemorating the hypo center where the bomb exploded. host: after days like this when you go back to your hotel having absorbed all these things that are emotional -- how to you process it? clifton: you talk about it. you sit with your family, have a little saki, and just let it come. host: it was 10 days total? clifton: 10 days total. host: at the early part you knew that there was more and more to go through. clifton: yeah and that is ok. it is nothing compared to what they went through and what u.s. servicemen went through. host: were you beginning to think how you would process this for people at home? clifton: at that point, no. i still am. it has been since august and i'm still -- it still stays with you and i am still processing it. it is not a quick thing. host: we have another survivor story. who is he? clifton: i'm not sure -- i haven't seen -- host: he is the leader of the survivors group. he was 16 years old at the time of the bombing. let's watch this together. we will then talk more with clifton truman daniel. >> [speaking japanese] byi removed the rubble digging around the area. felleded to remove a the concrete foundation in our house was covered with a big pillar and i could not go forward. mother was lying face up about one meter away and her eyes were bleeding. since i could not make it to her side i asked her, can you move? you can, know unless remove this stuff for my shoulder i cannot move. but i couldn't. boy and iterialistic knew that japan was cornered and going to lose soon. so i was always dreaming every day that i would get on a plane and throw myself directly onto the u.s. battleships. i never imagined such a horrible thing would happen to me. mother, the to my fire is spreading so fast and i cannot help you. and she said, get away from here quick. whoid, go visit my father, passed away in may. i will follow you shortly. i went away from the scene leaving my mother knowing that she would die in the fire. i spent the night outside. day i went to my house but it was too hot to enter. a few days later i dug in the area where she had been, and i saw a small child-like mannequin doll, baked in tar. it was her dead body. most in hiroshima and nagasaki died like things, not as human beings. about one month later, september 6, i was walking and i felt suddenly very heavy. i felt like being absorbed into the earth. , i went and managed to arrive at my aunt's house about 10 kilometers away, then the acute symptoms started to show. i had red spots on my skin, a sore throat, gums bleeding and a nose bleeding and some hair loss. my ungle also -- my uncle also lost his spouse on the 12th of august. mother said to me, your -- my sister, i lost her, i lost your uncle, i cannot afford to have you killed. around in the neighborhood, and i managed to find a dentist. and hadot of money him give lots of shots to cure my symptoms. why am i saying this? one toust a very lucky have been saved by this dentist who gave me this shot. i don't know what kind of medicine he gave me, but my life was saved by him. the u.s. war, occupational army, the ghq's september, that all of the war victims destined to die had died, so there would be no more damage unaccounted for. from switzerland -- from the red cross, who saw the victims in hiroshima, then he tried his best to cure them with medicine and whatever he had. and then also they asked the ghq to do something about it but he was denied. in japan, the government, did not object to that. nothing was done. because of that, by the end of hibakusha had,000 died. i was saved but 210,000 people were killed. if there had been treatment done to those people, a small percentage might have been saved. probably president truman did not know about this, but the u.s. occupational army was not really -- did not have any measures or policies in place to deal with this issue. there have been a policy of underestimating the damage done to the victims, unfortunately. host: that gentleman we just heard from telling his survivor story is the leader of a survivors group of the bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki. we are talking to clifton truman daniel about his visit to those cities in august of this year. used isord hikushama he the word for survivor? clifton: literally it means "bomb-affected people." it covers a wide range of people who work injured by the bomb and the radiation afterwards or the radioactive rain. anybody affected by the bomb. host: he was critical of the u.s. policy and the occupier's policy after the war for having no preparation to deal with the victim. what is your opinion? clifton: that is a complicated issue. the atomic bomb hospitals that the u.s. set up were set up primarily to study what had happened. to study the victims. i don't know that anybody had medication they can offer, or much they could do for the victims in those days. that is what he is talking about . that they had these atomic bomb hospitals, these treatment centers, that could not treat anybody. listening to the survivor stories, it is hard to listen to but it is worth knowing that he described himself as a militaristic little boy who dreamed of flying airplanes into american ships. we need to remember those countries were at war and had been for 4.5 years, and hundreds of thousands of people in the pacific theater died as a result of that war. that context had to be weighing on your mind. clifton: both he and others brought that up. one gentleman said at the end of his testimony that he felt so stupid for believing his japanese government, that despite what happened to him, he felt he was in this horrible thing that happened, but he still felt that he had somehow been wrong for believing his government. i told him afterward that he should not feel that way. it was his country and his government and there wasn't much he could do. we have about 25 minutes left with clifton daniel. this one is hemp resenting his drawings. -- present -- this one is him presenting his drawings. clifton: they are already about 22 years old. in crunch rest temp -- in contrast to many others who were children, they were already married, with children. they were 22-23 years old. i believe this is the first time they had spoken about it. he maderation for this, a series of eight drawings of things he had seen on the day of the bombing. of when they try to make their way to safety. include depictions of people having windows explode into their faces and peppering them with glass shards. he drew an image of the burials, retrieving the corpses littered across hiroshima. they were taken to huge pits where they were burned en masse. he has his own depiction of a well-known picture of a wounded japanese soldier, with a bandage around his head, sitting at his desk near the bridge running out scrips where people can get emergency supplies. he had a long line of people and he was telling them where to get food or medicine or whatever it was. he drew these pictures. the last he showed me was the saddest. just a picture of a little boy sitting on the ruined steps of the building. he recalls the boy could not have been more than three or four years old and he touched them on the shoulder to make sure he was all right and a little do it -- little boy fell over. he had died sitting on the steps alone with no idea where his family was. host: this story is about 3.5 minutes long. [video clip] >> as i was walking, going into the town, there is the bridge called miyuki. by this bridge there was a policeman-like men sitting. i look very closely and he had his head bandaged and was bleeding. he was wounded as well. he said, you were injured, too, huh? yes i was and he gave me a piece of paper. ofn i saw it was a proof being a victim that proves i was a victim of the atomic bomb. i received that piece of paper. then later, when i did the research at the atomic bomb archives, he turned out to be a policeman called mr. ujita. later, i was hoping to see him again, but i have no word from him. it is a pity that i was not able to see him. instead i met this person. i drew him from my memory. one, this is the yuki bridge, looking toward downtown. it was burned flat. flames and still burning. that must be the department store, probably. or that must be the newspaper company. probably that is where it was. i instantly thought about those things. i could not afford staying crossed the bridge and there were so many people i encountered. there are only a few here that i met more than these people. they were begging for water. there was no such thing as a portable water container like this, in those days. there was no habit of carrying a water bottle with you in those days. so i was not able to give them water. it was such a pity. there was no water around available. there were so many people begging for water, so i remember the scene. i drew this painting. clifton: thank you for sharing your story and your pictures. -- i willke very much take them home and frame them and put them on my wall. >> [speaking japanese] host: that is clifton truman daniel, harry truman's grandson meeting with a 90-year-old survivors. they were in their 20's when the bombs were dropped in hiroshima and not a sake. -- nagasaki. those drawings -- you did bring them home? clifton: yes. i will frame them. they are out of them now so we can take pictures but i will put them back up. host: so the survivors, the do not show outward physical evidence of the trauma they went through, do you see people that still had burns and scars. clifton: one of the gentlemen in hiroshima had lost his ear, you could see his face was burnt. a friend of mine who lives in eko, she was, shig one of the hiroshima maidens. they were young girls who were badly burned in the bombing. in the mid-1950's, norman cousins and others paid for them to have plastic surgery. she was among those. there are victims with physical evidence of the burns. to then addition emotional scars that we could see. what did you learn about those who survived the initial blast and the subsequent radiation. what were the things that happened most often? clifton: the stories that i have heard commonly is that, having survived the bombing, sometimes being burned and sometimes not, some of them of course were not touched. physically. no glass or burns. they were far enough away or behind a wall or inside a structure that protected them. what followed in the days and weeks later was the signs of radiation sickness. they would lose their hair. fatigue. one of them in nagasaki, who lives in mexico now, yasoaki went through years of fatigue, on and off fatigue. he was six years old when the bomb hit not a sake -- nokia sake. -- nagasaki. he could not work. he would get completely worn out and had to be bedridden until his blood cell count came up again. then he would get another job and where himself out and those that. he finally -- and lose that. he finally got past that. he is 73 years old now and in relatively good health, but it is deceiving. he and others, you look at them and they look fine, but they have all had health problems their whole lives related to this. host: our final survivor story, we made reference earlier, listening to these tales, you heard echoes of the stories of 9/11 where they had no bodies to bury. innocent people going about their daily lives and this enormous power unleashed on them. incredibly, you met one survivor whose family had victims in both events. lost his oldero brother in hiroshima. his older brother survived the initial blast and came home and died some days later. itos went by and then mr. lost his older son at the world trade center. he was working in the towers when they were attacked. he was -- i don't know what you would even call him, except he had to endure the tragedy twice. as you just said, it was very similar. innocent victims. fire. nobodies to bury. host: we are calling this clip, two ground zeroes. this is mr. ito telling his family story. >> i am going to talk about the two experiences of ground zero. >> [speaking japanese] >> what i mean is that i have groundnced the two zeroes. my older brother killed by the atomic bomb in 1945, then later killed onst son was september 11, 2001. >> [speaking japanese] >> it was both extremely sad experiences to endure. was in middleer school when he was killed. in grade school when the bomb was dropped. as he was recovering, he gradually came back to normal and was able to play outside. >> [speaking japanese] >> so, we were playing together becamefriend, and he appearing to be well. hat.s wearing this >> [speaking japanese] then beneath the straw hat, all we saw at the time was his hair had fallen off and was sticking to the inside of the hat. >> [speaking japanese] ,> so what mother did instead wiping around his mouth so he could get at least the moisture and set of drinking water -- instead of drinking water. >> [speaking japanese] >> one day, my older and told meed to me care of our mother and my parents. >> [speaking japanese] back now, trying to figure out what he meant, i know that was his will. >> [speaking japanese] 11:00 in theaway morning, september 1 of that year. >> [speaking japanese] >> we were watching tv at the when the train center was attacked. the north tower was attacked followed by the south tower. floor whenhe 82nd the aircraft hit the south tower. >> [speaking japanese] >> if they cannot find his son's remains, so they are going to -- eu of the rubble, he took this and put instead in an urn. >> [speaking japanese] >> those experiences, the things shouldcan say to you, we .et rid of hatred, animosity anything that i harbor. i feel i need to get rid of it. >> [speaking japanese] >> when you think about the preciousness of life, how the worst things we have on this planet are the weapons that will harm human beings. >> [speaking japanese] >> needless to say, nuclear any type ofourse, weapon, atomic bombs or terrorist attacks, are all atrocious. and we have to make all efforts to avoid those weapons and terrorist acts. >> [speaking japanese] >> matter what reasons you may have, or what arguments you may have human beings should not hate each other. host: that was mr. ito telling his family story of his brother , the survivor -- who died eventually? clifton: his brother survived the bombing and in his effort to recover died of radiation sickness. in thend his son died world trade center bombings. one family hit by two incredible tragedies. youave spent two hours with on this trip you took to hiroshima and nagasaki. you told me you are still processing it. for those who went on this journey with me today, what would you like them to take away from your motivations and what you learned? clifton: i think it is important for people to reach out. if not to put the past behind them, at least to make peace with it. it is important to understand other people. it is an old hackneyed phrase. you do not know someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes. until you have talked to them and spend time with them, and if i do have a lot in common. -- on that day, he was the essence of what this meant to me. washe end of that day, that august 6, the 67th anniversary of the bombing, and after his testimony, and after we had gone back, mr. ito invited my family river to lighthe lantern, for his brother and his son. there were hundreds of thousands of lanterns on the river. it is an annual ceremony. you like a lantern for a lost soul and send it down the river. symbolizing letting go of the earthly body, and the people who took refuge in that river. he invited me to come to light that lantern with him to his brother and son and send it off together, which we did. that summarizes what i hoped to get out of this trip. controversy within your family or other brothers about this trip? clifton: no. in fact, my youngest brother would probably like to go to japan someday. i would like to go again someday , both to do the archives and the research for the book, and just to be there to talk to some of those people without so much of the hullabaloo surrounding it. to get to know hiroshima and nagasaki. having made think the initial journey without press coverage could you go back without so much attention? clifton: if i sneak in. [laughter] host: would it require sneaking in? the initialhink thing was newsworthy. i think it will be much quieter the next time. host: what about press coverage here at home? clifton: i don't know. the u.s. media picked up the stories and ran them here in the states. the coverage was nice, was good, was fair. i have not had requests for interviews as i have been back. -- some of the stories in the comments section there has been some sniping. not a lot. nice.been host: you have children who were taught this -- and you were that ouris in school, history lessons in this country treat the subject appropriately? clifton: i think that we can always do better. i don't know that the japanese history books treated appropriately either. 67 years later there is still polarization about the decision. whether it was the right thing to do or the moral thing to do. as i said in the clips, people will talk about that and should talk about it. for the unitede, states, having done what we felt we had to do to end a bloody, ruinous war that claim to millions of lives, we can still reach out to those affected by the war, and still feel for them and still do our best to help them and help this never happen again. host: based on your experience, when you get about writing your survivor story project, will you ask different questions? clifton: yes. because this was the first visit and we were there in the name of reconciliation, we did not talk much about feelings. did they think it was right or wrong? what do they feel about it? i would also ask the same questions of americans who served in the war. former u.s. service members are part of this project. i have held their hands in mine and sadako's crane in the other. there was suffering on both sides. host: this was a -- this is a terrible hypothetical, but if you now have the opportunity to have a conversation with your grandfather based on what you idealearned, is there any of what you as a grown-up would like to be able to ask him? clifton: i would not mind going over the whole thing with him. just to sit down and to say -- tell me, from the beginning what were you thinking and when did you know? you pick this up, even as a grandchild, i pick it up from family lore. slightly different from a historian, otherwise a pick it up like any other person. i have to read. i read transcripts and look at the videos he did. i read his memoirs. i pick it up from scraps of paper at the truman library. i would love to sit in his den and say -- go. tell me what you were thinking. what did it mean and why did you do it? host: what archival records exist of his decision? clifton: we have his memoirs and the truman library has the closest thing to an order to drop the bombs. a signed note that says go ahead and release when ready. it does not even call them what they were by name. recently in letters the late 1950's, grandpa apparently told a television interviewer that he had no problem using the weapons and he would use them again. that prompted a formal protest from the hiroshima city council who sent in a letter saying, please take that back. grandpa wrote them back and said i got your nice letter, thank you very much, i understand how you feel, but let me remind you of something. out why the to set war had been started and how he felt about what he had to do. host: clifton truman daniel visited hiroshima and nagasaki 67 years after the bomb had been dropped on the city's. the decision made by his grandfather harry truman. thank you for your trip. we appreciate your video and your experience. clifton: thank you. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> each week, american history's tv rings you -- brings you "reel america." atomdam strikes -- the strikes is a wartime film that are just the bombs were necessary. filmed only weeks after the bombs were dropped, it includes a seven minute interview with a jesuit priest who witnessed the event and hiroshima -- in hiroshima. ♪

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