Host it will be 50 years ago this august that president Lyndon Johnson passed the civil rights voting act. We will be talking to experts as well as going behind the scenes with white house telephone recordings. Lets introduce our experts. Joining us in washington, d. C. Kent germany. He is a history professor at the university of South Carolina but also the editor of the lyndon b. Johnson project at the university of virginia. Thanks for joining us. Mr. Germany it is my pleasure. Host our next guest was the secretary of health, education and welfare, and he was the author of the triumph and tragedy of Lyndon Johnson. Thank you for joining us. Mr. Califano nice to be with you. Host before we starts, a little bit about your perspectives. Mr. Germany, the lbj project what is that . Mr. Germany it is a goldmining project. It is trying to get all of the recordings transcribed, edited annotated, anything you would need to know to understand what is going on in a conversation. The editors are there. We are trying to put everything out from the assassination. All the way through the end of 1969. So, it is Lyndon Johnsons vision of history with the bark off and youre talking about a lot of bark on with these telephone calls. Host what do the telephone calls reveal . Mr. Germany Lyndon Johnson was extremely busy. The Voting Rights act was one thing that was going on in he 1965. Was deeply dedicated to getting very significant Voting Rights legislation passed and he is not going to yield on it. You also get to see people called him a magician. They called him a lot of different things. One thing he definitely is is effective, and you get to see Lyndon Johnson pulling a lot of different strings. But often doing it quietly. Host why you think that Lyndon Johnson was so intent on getting this done . Particularly when he had the 1964 act on civil rights . Mr. Califano he dealt with discrimination and workplace and in schools, but he thought the Voting Rights act was the most important piece of legislation he would pass. And it would dramatically give power to africanamericans had been kept away from the polls deliberately in the south for but also in some other areas for many, many years, and indeed, as i think we may hear he thought it would take care of 70 of their problems. He told Martin Luther king that. He told us. This is the most important piece of legislation. He believed in the vote. That was his life. Remember, this was a guy elected to congress in 1938 and basically was in a house elections, Senate Elections for the remainder of his life and he saw how important votes were when he won big, so he could get Voting Rights and other things passed. Host mr. Califano, in your book, you say the part of the reason was he thought it was a race against time. Can you expand on that and give us his perspective . Mr. Califano yes, in triumph and tragedy, which i appreciate you mentioning, he was in a race against time. He thought that once there was light at the end of the tunnel, what the oppressed had accepted as inevitable became intolerable. He was constantly concerned that we had to move fast on Voting Rights, civil rights, other on enforcing them on other legislation, because there was inevitable impatience, once they could see there was a chance to access whether it was health programs, jobs, education programs. He always used to say, lets get the bill up there. Lets get it passed. Lets get the departments enforcing it. He was very, very conscious of that, and indeed, to say the people we are trying to help could do the most damage to our civil rights and Voting Rights efforts, as we saw in some of the disturbances the riots in watts, in newark, in detroit over that time. Host lets start by looking at the phone calls. Even though this was done in 1965, we will start at the starting point. The president is talking to his attorney general. It is the first conversation we hear. It is a month after the president s landslide victory in 1964. Lets listen to that. President johnson i want you to take the greatest midnight legislative drafting that has happened since they wrote the whole income tax. Basically, i believe if we can have a simple, effective method of getting them registered now if the state laws are too high and disqualify a bunch of them maybe we can go to the Supreme Court and get that held unconstitutional. If the registrar makes them stand in line to long, maybe we can work that way out so the postmasters can do that. Lets just find some debway mr. Katzenbach lets go through the other alternatives weve got. President johnson get the best people you have got. See what you can do and we are going to need it pretty quick. Host mr. Califano, lets start with you about that phone call. Not only is he trying to start the process, emphasizing he means it quick, fill us in on what was going on. Mr. Califano that day, he met with Martin Luther king or was meeting with him after that phone call, andrew young. It was generally the conversation what he could do for blacks in the United States, about civil rights generally also about jobs. That conversation was the first real conversation he had with dr. King about Voting Rights. He made it clear in that meeting , which within the white house too young and king that he was going to get Voting Rights to the congress and passed in the next year. It was very much on his mind. As i said, he thought it was the crown jewel of his presidency. Host what was the attorney generals reaction . What was the attorney generals concerns . Mr. Califano katzenbach immediately began working with it. You have to remember, Voting Rights was on the civil rights at the end of agenda. Nobody thought anything could happen with it. It was a much tougher bill to pass than the 1964 civil rights act. Katzenbach went back to these Justice Department. And he started drafting. Eventually i do not know if you will have the phone conversation, the next phone conversation lbj had was with dr. King on january 15. I dont want to jump the gun host we are going to exactly get to that in just a bit. Mr. Germany, give us some perspective on what you hear especially from this conversation and what he added. Mr. Germany Lyndon Johnson starts off about the new deal. This is his reference. He wanted this done faster than that midnight legislative drafting party during the new deal. So, Lyndon Johnson is deeply rooted into this long preriod of liberalism. He is getting them going. Katzenbach had been there for ole miss. He had been there all through the kennedy administration, into the johnson administration. He was the civil rights backbone for the Justice Department. He was the acting attorney general as Bobby Kennedy had run and won as the senator from new york. He was the person really getting this legislation to go through. He is a fascinating person. World war ii hero, prisoner of war in world war ii. He is an anchor and someone who is often forgotten in the mainstream understanding of the civil rights movement. Host lbj had a clear idea of how he wanted to develop the how we wanted this to progress other than leaving it to others to develop the plan. Is that a Fair Assessment . Mr. Germany absolutely. He puts together the testimony is going to put before committees. Johnson is a details guy, and katzenbach is going to make sure that the is are dotted and ts are crossed. Host would you agree the president had an idea how how he wanted this to progress from day one . Mr. Califano no question. He looked at the senate, the problem was the filibuster. In those days, he was two thirds of the senate, so 67 votes. He had to get 67 votes to break what would be a southern filibuster, and a long southern filibuster. So, he knew whos going to have to work with Everett Dirksen. But first, he wanted to have a real sense of the bill. He wanted to know what all of the traps were. He wanted to know how to get it done so it would be effective. He wanted to make sure it would be delivered to him and the that a delivered to him in the Justice Department enough power so they could really get something done when it came to enforcing what congress passed. As you will see, as we will go a long, Everett Dirksen became a very important part of this legislation, and Lyndon Johnson knew that from the moment, if not before, he talked to Nick Katzenbach on the 14th of december. Host lets move forward a little bit. Not a phone conversation. President johnson goes to howard university, delivers a speech at howard university, talking about his civil rights division, justice. His civil rights vision, justice. Lets hear a portion of that speech. President johnson what is justice . It is to fulfill the fair expectations of man. Thus american justice is a very special thing. For from the first, this has been a land of towering expectations. It was to be a nation where each man could be ruled by the Common Consent of all. Enshrined in law, given life by institutions, guided by men themselves, subject to its rule. And all, all, of every station and origin will be touched equally in obligation and liberty. Beyond the law lays the land. It was a rich land, glowing with more abundance promise then man had ever seen. Here, unlike any place yet known, all were to share the harvest. Beyond this was the dignity of man. Each could become whatever his qualities of mind and spirit would permit to strive, to seek, and if he could, to find his happiness. This is american justice. We have proceeded faithfully to the edge of our imperfections , and we have failed to find it for the American Negro. So, it is the glorious opportunity of this generation to end the one huge wrong of the american nation, and in so doing, to find america for ourselves, with the same immense thrill of discovery which gripped those who first began to realize that here at last was a home for freedom. [applause] host it is important to note that he is making the speech at a Historic Black College in the United States. He is clearly make an argument about the legislation that is coming. Mr. Germany, what sense do you get from the argument he is making from that speech . Mr. Germany he is making an argument that america is not black or white. America is black and white. And americans are all the same. That will be the core of the selma speech that he makes. You hear early in that summer, he is making this speech this is an american problem, this is not just in the words of the day a negro problem. And just after the clip we just listen to, he quotes scripture about lighting a candle inside and not letting it burn out. It is a fire that cannot burn out. Johnson is tapping into that as well. Host mr. Califano, as you listen to this speech, what is going through your mind . Give us a sense of where you were at the time. What was going through your mind . Mr. Califano the speech was a very important one across the board, as kent was indicating. This was the speech where johnson laid out, articulated his notion of affirmative action. Two runners at the starting line, one in chains for years and the other training for years and can you call it a fair race when you put them both at the starting line . Also there is also a very , important point to underscore. Lyndon johnson made it to dr. King on and one of the phone conversations and on many occasions. Lets not call this a bill for negro Voting Rights. This is a bill for Voting Rights for all. Everyone is entitled to a right to vote, whether they are white, black, mexican, whatever. And that is the way we should frame this. Everyones right to vote. I think that was also part of johnson. Lastly, this point about the dignity when he goes to congress with the Voting Rights bill, he talks about, here for the dignity of man and the destiny of democracy to him the vote was at the core of our nations ability to say we are a democratic society. Host mr. Califano, did he write the speech himself . How much input did he have in the speech itself . Mr. Califano he had a lot of input on every speech. I think it good 1 i think dick goodwin was the main speechwriter on this speech, but a lot of people took a look at it. Harry mcpherson, other staffers. And i do think it is important to remember you can go to the library, you can go to the lbj library and see what he wrote in various drafts. As you can see, as you can do when you listen to these tapes that tends kent has been putting together and been making available to people for years just by going online, down to the Miller Center in the university of virginia you can listen to the entire speech, which in this case is certainly worth listening to. Host mr. Germany, i am interested in the language. Especially the language. This is american justice. We have failed to find american justice for the American Negro. What about that . Mr. Germany there were many different lbjs. There was the public statesman lbj. He was a speech teacher. He taught high school speech. That comes out in his public speeches. Behind the scenes, on the telephone, sometimes you do hear some of that statesman johnson. A lot of times you hear the more colloquial johnson where he lays it out as you would when the door is closed. That is one of the things you do get on the private telephone recordings you do not get in these public speeches. Bill moyers has a famous phrase. Lyndon johnson was the 13 most interesting man he knew in his life. You get all 13 men and these recordings. Host this conversation is between the president and Martin Luther king junior. Before we go to the conversation describe the relationship between the two men at the time. Mr. Germany it is tricky. Lyndon johnson has succeeded in assassinated president. He has this massive electoral victory in 1964. Martin luther king junior, in many parts of the country, is the most hated american. That is one thing we lose sight of. There was a lot of opposition to Martin Luther king junior. There were billboards all over the south claiming he was a communist. Johnson is concerned. There are fbi reports coming to johnson from J Edgar Hoover who despised king and the civil rights movement. Johnson is wary, but you can see evidence that he is an ally. But allies are not necessarily people that go swimming naked in the white house pool, which a lot of people did. Allies are people that often get along the least. So the both of things that they are going for an things that they want to read to that point is the trick in politics. It is the art of the possible. You have two men who were exquisite politicians. Host we will hear that and family will get joe califanos thoughts. Dr. King, its very interesting mr. President , to note that the only state you did not carry in the south was my home state. And less than 40 of the negroes registered to vote. [indiscernible] at the university of texas a recent article brought this out very clearly, to demonstrate the importance of negroes registered to vote in the south and it will be a coalition of the negro vote and the moderate white vote that will make the new south. President johnson that is exactly right. I think it is important that we do not say we do this because it is negroes and whites. But we take the position that every person born in this country when they reach a certain age, they have a right to vote. Just like they have a right to fight. And we extend it whether it is a negro or a mexican or who it is. Number two, i think we do not want special privilege for anybody. We want equality for all. We can stand on that principle. I think you can contribute a great deal by getting your leaders, and you yourself, taking very simple examples of discrimination where a man has to memorize longfellow or has to quote the first 10 amendments or he has to tell you what amendment 15, 16, 17 is and then ask them if they know and show what happens. Some people do not have to do that, but when a negro comes in, he has got to do it. If we can repeat and repeat and repeat i do not want to follow hitler but he had not idea. If you take a simple thing and repeat it often enough, even if it was not true, people if people will accept it. If you can find the worst condition you run into, alabama, mississippi, louisiana, north South Carolina. I think one of the worst i ever heard of was the president of the school of tuskegee, part of the Government Department or something being denied the right to cast the vote. You just take that one illustration, get it on radio and television, get it on in the pulpits, in the meetings, every place you can, pretty soon the fellow that did not do anything but drive a tractor, he will say, thats not right. Thats not fair. Dr. King yeah. President johnson that will help us, what we are going to shove through in the end. Dr. King youre exactly right about that. President johnson if we do that, it will be the greatest breakthrough of anything, not even accept except this 1964 act. The greatest achievement of my presidency, i said to record yesterday, was the 1964 civil rights act. This will be bigger because it will do things even the 1964 act could not do. Host mr. Califano, your thoughts on this phone conversation . Mr. Califano it shows several things. One, they were partners in the effort to pass