Of over two decades standing who describes herself as less lois lane, more jimmy breslin. She is covered such disasters as katrina and the new York State Legislature for outlets like ap and newsday. She currently for newsweek as an investigative reporter. And inconceivable is her first book. Shell be in conversation with Kristal Knight who you might seen as a commentator on msnbc or fox news. Or you may have listened her as the host of the Kristal Knight podcast hosted by newsweek. She is a graduate of the Howard University journalism program. Knight is also a political operative, founded the Voting Rights nonprofit, organized tennessee. So please me in welcoming to politics and Prose Union MarketValerie Bauman and Kristal Knight. Good evening. Hello. And before we get into the conversation, i know, valerie, you wanted give us a little bit of background and do a reading before we actually have our about the question and answers as well. You know, keep it short. Just i think that was a great introduction. Thank you so much. I just for little bit more background i was 38 in the middle of the pandemic. I realized i was out of time. It was now or never. Now, four years later, im actually pregnant finally and have a baby the way very soon. And its just been a really long, strange journey and. I came across this world and i just realized it was a story i had to tell. So im going to read just a little bit about some of the legal aspects this and this is from 11 of my book. Congratulations. Youre a father. Trent arsenal couldnt have expected federal agents to appear at his door demanding to search his home, but in 2010. The selfdescribed christian version became the first ever private donor to be targeted for fda and, for osment, the fdas center for biologics and research. Seeber sent arsenal a cease and desist order and threatened him with a 100,000 fine due to his prolific private donations that same year agents appeared at his door and searched his home on four separate occasions. The california man made 328 donations to 46 different recipients with the intent to get them pregnant at the time, his efforts had resulted in 40 births. The number rose to at least 25 as trent continued donating throughout the federal enforcement. Although he abstained sex. Trent had still testing every six months and had been providing fresh , primarily to lesbian couples free of charge. Since 2006. Seeber said that because trent failed to provide his donations through a bank or clinic and hadnt had the extensive and expensive weekly testing and the mandatory six month freeze in quarantine of that all donors must complete. He was in violation of federal laws and regulations governing donation of biological tissue, yet wide evidence of even more prolific in operation today, the fda has not gone after a single donor since trent was forced to shut down personal operation more than a decade ago. Now that freelance donation is exploding the agency will soon need to grapple with how and it plans to regulate growing form of reproductive activity among private americans. Sievers sole foray into fray via trents case, only served to raise an uncomfortable ethical and legal question for the agency, which may be the reason no freelance donor has been targeted in the same way under. What circumstances can the government tell you not to conceive another person . The fda is strict and costly regulations around donating a with a known donor arent required. The man is a quote sexually intimate partner of the recipient. The problem is that the government has no clear definition a sexually intimate partner, an admission that became central in the proceedings in trents case. In fact, silber asserted in that case the plain meaning of the words do require further explanation try. Trent and others contend that having someones in your body via Artificial Insemination qualifies them as a sexually intimate partner partner. And that continued exposure to that persons for the purposes of getting pregnant pose no additional risk to the recipient, nor would it violate laws governing donation. The this argument is key for trent all freelance donors, but also because recipients who want work with a known donor but go through clinic, say, instead of the back seat of a volkswagen, could also forgo the costly freezing and six month quarantine that would otherwise be required prior to either ivf. This could also help eliminate requirements at some clinics for psychological evaluations, copies of the legal contracts, among other bureaucratic indignities. Trents interpretation than is actually the law of the land in his home state of california. Meaning that state one home in 70 isnt achieved sexually intimate Partner Status for any given recipient pair. Unfortunately, fda held the trends assertions about how to define sexually intimate partner were merely an effort to skirt the issue. And in 2012, he was ultimately from donating unless and so he complied with fda requirements and obtained written permission from the agency. So well stop there. All right. Lets give her a round of applause. Ashley. First, perspiring right . Im like ten months pregnant, basically. We also that youre pregnant. So i want open up this conversation one by stating i was very excited when i got the invitation interview you because one. I think i shared this with you backstage. I froze my eggs during the pandemic and so is something that is so important to me and that i really care about. And i never about the opportunity or even the possibility of, you know, having a and not going through a bank or fertility. So this was a very, very interesting read. So thank you so much even writing this book. But the first question that i love to just explore in the book, you talk about a number of different women, men whove gone through the process. Why dedicate space in the book to talk about yourself . You could have just written this book talking about everyone elses different stories, but you your own story throughout the book. And that is so interesting as the backdrop of this entire story. Thats a good question. As a journalist, 20 years, im not really comfortable being part of the story. Its definitely unfamiliar. Me. I think the number one reason is i felt like i to be honest with the readers that to tell this without making it clear that i was passing judgments, making decisions and actively participating in the world felt dishonest and i also just felt from a writing perspective that my own story made sense as a narrative spine, as i was exploring different aspects the world i came across different elements thematically, whether it was legal issues, you know, encountering you know, prejudice among donors disclosed, you know, offensive things. Me that neatly fit into different chapters as i just went through my own chronology. So it really worked out very well for the writing process. Thats great. Thats great. In throughout the book, you share with this really in the beginning of the book, share with us how you began this discovery of finding men who wanted to donate their. And one of the ways and i went to the site you talk about facebook and how facebook has been a catalyst for so things because its surely of the first if not the first social media platform to spin the longest. Its the largest, but you you walk us through in the book how going to these Facebook Groups you find people in different parts of the country who say im willing to travel or i live in this region. And i just did a quick facebook search and i found Facebook Groups here in the dmv area, but that never occurred as possibility to me outside mediums like. How else have traditionally have women or folks who are trying to get pregnant found if not through a bank. Well, theres a lot of ways i mean, i think that that you found a lot of times in the seventies and eighties there a lot of lesbians who looked to their gay male friends to help them get pregnant. The dawn from my research, the world of freelance was in like the early mid 2000 on craigslist. Right. And then also some of the yahoo Message Boards or aol kind of message, Bulletin Boards and chat rooms, people either offer up their or say desperately seeking. And you would have these anonymous transactions and lot of the men, the donors were drawn to this. There just a recurring theme of men having formative early sexual encounters with. You know, an older woman, woman who wanted them to get them pregnant and then that suddenly was an issue that had to be scratched. And they sought out these online spaces where they could continue to pursue pursue that and and people, but also kind of fulfill some inner craving. Right. And when youre talking about people are donating their , you talk about Artificial Insemination actual insemination and the difference between the. What are some of the things you were warned a woman . Thats looking obviously even if shes going through a either a bank a nine traditional form, which is what the book is discussing worrying about the selection process. You did a lot of writing characteristics. You talked lot about, you know, questions you would ask on the first date or on the first face time. What are things that people should be aware of that folks just, you know, could be out here just really trying have sex and not being sincere about the donation process . Well, you know, im still actively involved in the groups and today i probably posted three or four times comments on somebody who is, you know, looking for a donor, i need them next week. Number one, take your time. I mean, whether youre going through a bank or not. Isnt isnt. This is going to create a human being. The that youre getting comes from a real human being who has their moral compass, who has their own personality, that are going to be part of whatever human you raise. And so i know the urgency i have lived urgency. And the at times desperation of just wanting to be pregnant, wanting to be a mom. But you cant rush that, especially not in the online world of freelance donation, because there are creeps out there. There are problematic men, there are men with breeder breeding fetishes. Lets just say it. And so so i think fact, the number one question is always, is your motivation, why are donating . Why do you want to do this . And i think that theyre the one that im most comfortable with that i dont always get is there are men who have a biological imperative to create more children than they can reasonably financially care for. And they see this as a way of helping women and being able to do that. And would prefer the men who have a limit, who just trying to produce dozens and dozens of. But they think, you know, is some way that i can get you an occasional photo update and have a kid out there and just, you know, not just humans living creature, you know, for the most part has some biological imperative to reproduce, to give life. I dont know why were on earth, but for me, thats the only answer i can think of for me. And so i do. These men who want to pursue it. But you have to really be careful. Take your time, come up with your own list of questions. What matters to you. And if you say blue eyes and blond hair, im worried, i think. Yeah, we want certain physiological traits in our kids, but who this human being going to be are . They going to be a good person. Are they going to be happy . You know, are they are they going to be curious inherently . And i was drawn to the world of freelance because i can find that out by interrogating a pejorative donor, a way you cant learn from a bank. Right. Thats thats so important. When you talk about freelance. In the book, you tell story about a lesbian couple and this particular story stuck out to me because they they found a donor. They got pregnant. They had the baby. And two years later, they broke up or they they separated. And it felt a little bit about like it was about deception in that one of the women ended up moving in with the man who donated the and she was able to somehow in a legal way get the her her former her former woman partners name off of the birth certificate. What are the dangers in processes like that particularly for same sex couples that that could happen that you know maybe they fall in love their donor and the person that theyre married to or the person that theyre with and that they birth this child with. If theyre not the conceive or that that could be a reality. Them that just felt it felt icky that that happened and i felt for the woman who was on the non winning side of that equation. Yeah, this was a heartbreaking case of oklahoma. Its in the state court. I think it would be handled differently, federal courts. But either way, want to protect yourself. The short is if you are a lesbian couple, even a heterosexual couple, couple using donor that is not from a bank do a second parent adoption. Thats the only way you protect yourself. Ultimately, the judge felt that in this case that, just having your name on the birth certificate wasnt. So i lost my train of thought. There a little bit, but there arent a lot of protections, and thats why i kind read the proportion that i read talking about the sexually intimate partner. If more clinics would get with the program and, acknowledge this adult, these two adults have agreed that person is going to be a donor to the recipient and were going to allow them to proceed as if theyre sexually intimate partners, but not a father role. Then you have, first of all, the safety and the security of the clinic is going to run their own dna testing, their own genetic testing, their own every possible analysis. So you have that protection. Youre not just relying documents that some some guy, you know, messaged you on facebook, but you also in writing this clinic viewed this person as a donor. They have a legal agreement that this this man is a donor and that would provide more protection. At this point in time, california is only state that has made laws that actually protect people who do home insemination. And i interviewed debra wald in book the author of those laws. So think theres a lot more work to be done in this area. Yeah. And speaking of the laws, particularly around debra you talk about or she rather advises it per book that you have some legal contract that is not just an agreement like i know you, you know me, were agreeing youre going to give me. But theres actually a legal and you explained in the book all of the questions that that she asked you. You werent prepared answer at first because we dont think about that when were naturally just thinking about conceiving. But talk to us a little bit about just the legal aspect and why important to have the legal you know the legal documents in place because people evolve peoples feelings change and that piece of paper document is really for you your protection and also for your unborn child. You have a notion of contracts that are actually extremely controversial in the world of freelance. A lot of the donors the men dont want to sign these contracts because in a lot of cases, the women have later use those contract to prove that their paternity in order to get Child Support later and attacked. Anecdotally it seems more likely that men will end up paying Child Support than women will end up having to share custody, mostly because these men are producing so many kids they couldnt possibly go after custody for all of them. Right. But at the at the end of the day, the laws are different in every state theyre weak in most states as i said, other than california. But you want to talk to a lawyer and you people will print off contracts off the internet and think that does the job but this is a case where pay lawyer its worth money. I paid 1,000 ive heard 1300 1500 in surrounding states. Get a lawyer to do your contra and know what your options are. The other thing is, as deborah walls, the author of the california law, said, if you have sex to get pregnant, congratulations. Youre a father. That is it bottom line. If you have sex with a donor, theres no way around. He is that he is the father and donors and the Facebook Groups dont like to hear this. They dont like it. You know i have comments deleted get really angry comments from the men and the moderators and they dont want it known because a lot of these guys are just trying to have sex so protect yourself legally physically and protect your family. Wow. Thats really good advice, particularly for folks who are considering going freelance donor route talk us a little bit as well. Just about this movement for women or parents who are deciding that they want to be single. Theyre Single Parents by choice. I think thats the way that you coined it per the book. What is that process it really i guess investigator doing this as a journalist and writing this book, how have you uncovered how people are feeling about to go this route, particularly in the alone space . Well, my mind is kind of going in two directions. On the one hand, i think, you know, the elephant in the room, health care in america is outrageously expensive. Absolutely. Theres not enough coverage for fertility. There. Just so few options. Not everybody can afford. I mean, if i had it me four years to get to the point where i am now expecting a baby next four years. If i had paid every you donation i mean i would have spent an extra 30,000 than i already did going ivf and other, you know, medicaid cycles and things. So the cost is a huge thing. Driving to this world. The other elements i want to talk about is while i am, i do consider myself, im going to be a solo mom by choice. This wasnt planned a this was not my decision. I didnt choose to be 42 and not have a partner. I thought i was going to get the fairy tale like everybody else. It didnt work out. But does mean i cant be a mom. Does that mean i cant build family . I cant accept and maybe some elements of that are selfish. But going this path pursue single motherhood in way where i could meet the donor my is has agreed to letters with my child and then meet at age 18. They my kid will have more access and more information his ancestry than a lot people from going through banks. And that was why i tried to do it. I knew im to be a selfish. I want to become a mom and im not going to give my kid a dad. But heres the way i can do the best i can to make this an informed decision and then try and put him first. I love that and i dont think its selfish. I think is your choice. Its your its my own hang up. I dont project that on anybody else. Me right. I mean because youre one of the things that you said to me backstage when i said i made the decision to freeze my eggs is that i control away from the man or my partner or whomever it was. And i put it back. I pu