Transcripts For CSPAN2 Fred 20240703

And i want to welcome all of you tonight to books and books. For those of you i dont know, im Mitchell Kaplan and im going to be just introducing the person will be introducing you to the evening. As you can see tonight, we have cspan with us as well. So were very excited that theyre here. We thank them for all the good they do, all the good work they do in bringing important books to to the attention of all of us. Im also really, really thankful that that living not living, but but based here in miami, we have one of the great publishing houses, the publisher of this book, american carnage, is mango publishers. And tonight we have its its editor publisher, whatever you whatever youre now calling yourself the janitor and go and thats chris. So we welcome chris and his whole team for making really possible thank for all the good work that you do. Of course we have fred and tom, so lets welcome them before a formal welcome. Welcome. And you know, one of the cosponsors of tonight is moms demand action. And we are very fortunate to have with us tonight a woman whos been very outspoken the way fred has been about the subject of this book, american carnage, and just the incredible harm that we are suffering on a daily basis from gun violence. And thats because she knows about it personally as well. And thats maria jose wright. Mj right . Whos whose son was involved and was was killed in the pulse nightclub shooting. And i want to just warmly welcome her and tell her how how, how happy we are to have her tonight. How unfortunate is that . We have her here tonight with us, but shes going to introduce her two guests. So please welcome mj. Thank you, everyone. Thats here for being here. I think we all are grateful that you care enough to be here. I have the honor of officially introducing fred and tom, but i want to share something with you guys first, since seven years ago today, may 17th, i had a lovely lunch with my son jerry right here at fred leanness by the miracle theater. It was the end of a wonderful days. He had come down to spend my birthday and mothers day with me. Wed seen a musical together. We had had a lot of extended family time. And that lunch i remember we talked a lot about his plans and how excited he was about his job with disney. I drove to the airport, helped him with his bag, gave him a really tight hug, and we exchanged i love years. It was the last time i saw my son. It was the last time i hugged. Less than a month later, the weekend before fathers day and his next visit home, he was shot and killed at the pulse nightclub in orlando, along with 49 other people. I wanted to share this with you because whenever discuss gun violence, it seems like theres a lot of emphasis on the statistics and the policy arguments. And with the ever increasing number of victims, we sometimes its easy to lose sight that every one of those numbers is a person, a person whose life was cut short along with all their hopes and all their dreams. A person who was loved, a person who was the world to someone and whose absence leaves in their families hearts a gaping hole filled with pain, with grief, and with trauma and all of that horror and all that sorrow multiplied by so many of us now is seeping and permeating our entire society. In our Society Today is going to have to decide what were going to do about it. Are we going to let it continue . How it keeps growing and growing and growing. This National Tragedy . Or are we going to make the decision that we love our children, that we care about our loved ones enough to make the changes that need to be made for their safety, to speak to you about both the personal tragedy and the data and the facts and the science we have two experts, fred, whose beautiful 14 year old jamie was shot and killed at Marjory Stoneman douglas in parkland and who from the very beginning has been speaking out to honor his daughter and to talk about how we have to make reforms to our gun laws and make changes thomas gabor is a professor of criminology from ottawa university. He is an International Gun policy consultant. He has written over 200 books, testified in front of parliament in canada and has served as an advisor to the United Nations. He is considered a foremost expert on the issue of gun violence. Together, theyre going to speak to you about their book, carnage american carnage shattering the myths that fueled gun violence. I have the privilege of introducing them to you. I try not to let people make me cry. You almost. Partly because you in york, you understand and. Those of you who have gotten to know me. Im a dad. Thats who i am. Im nothing more than a dad. But im a dad whos children went to school that very 14th, 2018 day of love, valentines day. I send my children to school. It is all that i did on a perfectly normal day. In fact, it was the valentines day that i was going to introduce my children to the roman house of the day for the first time. It was normal day, normal texting between my daughter, my wife and i and my son and my wife and i. Everything is fine. Its just after 2 00 and just after 2 00, my son calls and he says, hey, dad, my son is a jokester. So i didnt know where this was going at first. He said, theres a shooter at my school and i didnt immediately take him seriously because, again, hes a jokester. The chili said, and i cant find you because the thing about my son jesse, he looked after sister like a hawk. And as soon as he said that, i knew it was true. And i said to him, well, where are you . He said, what theyre telling to run as far from the campus as we. But i cant find jena. I got to go back. I said no. You got to run. And im literally arguing with my son to turn around as fast as he can and to run. And hes crying to me that he doesnt want to. When on the phone you hear boo boo boo. And im sorry. Those are the shots on the third floor. My son heard it loud. I heard it through the phone. Those are the shots are killing my daughter. My daughter died on the third floor of that school, second to last to be shot since then, i have spent my lives. Doing everything i can to stop gun violence in america. Many of you may know my story because i wrote a book called find the helpers. Ive been talking about that and mango publishing. Thank you for doing with me and mitch. Thank you. Hosting. But it tells my story. It tells my story of being a part of two american tragedies because four months before my daughter was killed, my brother died of cancer. Related his service in 911. My ran the trials for the world trade soccer and in find the helpers. It is my story of hope because of the people who into my life and how they helped me fall. And i know you understand that concept. So two years ago this guy stepped into my life. Actually, you did it before two years. But in a more formal way. And it was during cold. And tom said to me, im working on a project and. I want to do it with you in. The project he was working on was a book to take on the lies and the myths of the gun lobby. Now listen for those of you who follow me on social media or see me on media, i spend my life taking on each lie and myth as it comes up, but never has there been a book like this that puts it all in one place for everyone to read and for everyone to be, and for everyone to be able to fight back with and, you know, over the past two weeks, over the media tour of book, for those of you who have seen our interviews, youve heard me say a lot, stop listening to the liars it is the liars who put us in the place that were at today, where are we today . Well, 20 years ago, when my daughter was born. We had 200 million weapons in america. Today 20 years later, were just over 200 million plus girls. Over 400 million plus girl scouts was more than doubled. And 20 years ago, our teens were under 2 of all guns sold. Today, 20 years later, theyre 25 of all guns sold. And so the question is, how did we get here . And thats what find the helpers. Im sorry, thats what american carnage. Okay. Tells you. It on all the lies, all the myths and will tell you america is hungry for this because in the past two weeks it has been one of the top books in the country. In fact, it made it up to number 30 for about a week ago in the country. And i dont say that to brag. I say that because its not a novel. Its not a mystery, its not a romance, but a selfhelp. The books that normally sell, its a book about gun violence. But, you know what . That tells time. And i people want to know the truth and they want answers. And so with that top, im going to ask you to come up. I want to thank you for asking me to become a part of this with you. I think its the most work that i will get to do in my lifetime is getting the story out. So with that, the podium is yours. Thank you so much, my friend. So honored to to collaborate with fred guttenberg, who has gone through unimaginable grief, devastating loss. But rather than just keeping it to himself and struggling his way through life, hes harnessed that grief in order to help others so that there wont be one other case. One other issue, and i have been in all spending the last two weeks with in d. C. And new york just trying to keep up with them and his pace. Hes got remarkable energy, remarkable passion and dedication to the cause. So its an absolute honor for me. Well, to team up with fred. And we do bring Different Things the table. But i just like to spend 30 seconds thanking books and books for putting on this wonderful event. And im very grateful to mangle publishers. I written a number of books and this is by far the best experience ever had with a publisher. Your so respectful towards authors, so responsive. And its an absolute delight to work with mangle and the team. Now, as far as im concerned in my background, this friend mentioned, or as mj had mentioned, i was a professor of criminology 30 years at the university of ottawa and canada, received my before that at ohio state, both in criminology and sociology and over the last 30 years. So this is my first book on gun violence. Over the last 30 years, ive been on and off with in the gun policy area and was first invited to do a review of research in the area. And, you know, i had no ax to grind. I had no experience as a survivor, i had no very strong feelings, even as a criminologist tore or antipathy. And we always stressed, by the way, that were not guns. Its worth hoping to make an impact. Gun violence to prevent gun violence, gun violence prevention, gun safety, whatever the terms that are commonly used, were not guns. Were not trying to disarm americans. Were trying to find some Common Ground with gun owners. And many of them today are highly motivated to work with us. Many of you may have seen no less than a fox news poll recently found that over 80 of americans are supportive of many of the basic measures that activists are seeking such as universal background checks. So nobody can get a gun and the private market without some checks. Red flag laws for people who pose a risk to others and are demonstrated to do so. Raising the age for gun purchases. You know, our gun owners, for the most part, are supportive of these measures, as are in our methods. So thats one of the myths, the many myths tackle in this book that the country hopelessly divided 50, 50 gun owners and non owners or people who are trying to prevent gun violence and those who are just interested in gun rights and expanding their rights as gun owners and, that theres an irreconcilable difference between the two because thats what the gun lobby wants us to think. That is futile. Theres no way forward. Were hopelessly divided. And so we may as well pack up and forget about it. But when you look at those polls, you see quite the opposite. You see that most americans are desperate for change and increasingly were finding that in in different polls that have been taken. Just a couple of other things that ive done, i was involved with the first United Nations study on gun regulation. And why is that important . We looked at over 200 countries around the world to see what are they adopting. And thats when, you know, that started to open my eyes. It wasnt just the original reviewing the research and seeing how strong and compelling the research is. That tells us that guns on balance pose far more liability and risks to people than pose a benefit to the population and i also saw what an outlier america is with to gun policies, and that basic measures that are taken in other countries, for example, licensing of gun owners and more careful very thorough vetting of gun owners. Were not even close to achieving this in this country. With the two minute quick background check that we do that misses all kinds of relevant information. Thats sad and tragically, the parkland shooting was exhibit a, where he showed so many disturbing signs, but technically, he didnt have felony conviction on his record. So he was able to buy his ar 15 from legally from a store and this is one of the things that loopholes that we have to close and ive also been involved with the sandy hook that occurred in the uk. So back in 1996 there were 16 children in elementary school, much like sandy hook that were murdered in dunblane, scotland, as well as a teacher, and that in the uk it was very different response because whereas here in america people seem stock up or at least a certain segment of society starts to stock up when we have these horrors and we have 7. 5 million new gun owners. America since the pandemic in other countries such as uk, australia, new zealand, germany tightened up activities for tightened up their gun laws considerably. And im proud to say i was invited to serve as an Expert Witness to submit on behalf of the victims families and experts submission that Lauren Collins inquiry in the uk and ultimately it really tightened the law as far as handguns were concerned. So im hoping well follow their path. But so thats just little snippet of my involvement in this area and think we have a real symbiotic relationship here. Again, i wish as fred is the nicest guy in the world, but i wish id never met him, you know, just like we wish we never met m. J. We could just all live in peace. However, were at the point now, you know, its very overused term inflection, point, but a recent by Kaiser Health found that 52 of americans now have had a personal experience with gun violence. Either they have been intimidated by guns, they have been shot. A family has been shot, or at hands, a shooting. So, you know, the idea that this is something happens all over there and doesnt my community its infiltrated every community and the americans as a whole must deal with it. If not, its at our peril. If we fail to do so. Thank you. Thank you you. So so tom and i are going to have a little bit of a dialog, but then we want to leave time for you all to ask us questions. And so im going to kick us off. And first, just thank you for for providing doing the substance to so much of the work that i do when i harass people and. Im going to start it there. Tom last week, you and i were in d. C. Just so you all know, last week was quite a pace, but we handed out a copy of american carnage to every Single Member of congress, whether they, it or not. And im going to tell one story in a minute. We actually got bring american carnage into the white house and we met with susan rice and the gun policy. This is a book thats going change this country and the conversation on this because it is filled with data and fact. I also know last week, one morning got to address the full Democratic House caucus and which was quite an experience as well so this book has now infiltrate our politics and those who will make decisions because its time to reclaim this Congress Nation from the gun lobby, which owned the platform for far too long. I to give you all. One story and im going to ask tom to, maybe highlight a story that stuck out to him, but this one stuck out to me. And it was in congressman Thomas Massies office. Now, for those of you who dont know, that is hes from kentucky. He is the person who to christmases ago put out a Christmas Card with his entire Family Holding our fifteens and is what i would call one of the liars. And we went into his office and ended up talking. Its interesting the democrats call the people who work on guns, gun violence prevention staff and all the republicans call them Second Amendment staff. So so it was the Second Amendment staffer. And were having a very pleasant conversation. We really are but he lives in a different side of the universe than we do. And he challenged, of course, everything we were trying to talk to him about one thing, but one as far as to say that my daughter could have been killed with a rock. He did so his his theory got put to the test this week. Congressman connollys office his was attacked may have all read about it. Somebody walked in with a bat, hit both the staffers with the bat, broke a lot of stuff but you know what . Both those staffers are alive. They just the person walked in with bat and not a gun. One of the myths we take on the book is the importance of the weapon and both those congressman connolly staffers are alive today. The thing, though, there really stood out for me, which is which is i still laugh at it, but it shows you just how weak they are in their positions. So im talking to the staffer kind of like this. And over theres a big open doorway and i could see the whole time im talking to the staffer. Congressman massie sitting with the staffer, the whole time, never came out and our conversation with the staffer went on exceptionally long about 20 minutes. I at some point the congressman finally he needed to cross through the office to go to his personal office and so he finally goes through the door, head down like this walking through. And i said, congressman, i hope you were listening to that conversation. And he said, i heard every word of it. And i said, i just want to introduce myself. Im fred guttenberg. He goes, i know who you are. And he kept on walking, wouldnt stop to engage us to talk to us about truth, to talk to us about facts. So ill leave it here. Thats who they are, right . We know that. But you know what we . Get to do in 24 vote. We get to and i have news for you in the past three elections weve elected more gun safety candidates than we have in the past. This is the election to get it done. And i do believe that this issue will talked to one or two voting issue this or choice in the next election and its going to drive people to vote. However you all need to vote because the one thing name republican at this point trump to whoever should be the nominee they know their base vote thats dirty 35 of the country the majority with us but polls show 80 of america wants to stop. But we got to vote. Make sure you vote. This is the election. We can do it and those of you who arent paying attention last night right here in florida, in jacksonville, got a dig in shes the new mayor and a conservative republican area. How did she do it . It wasnt because of democratic turnout. It because republicans voted for her and Party Affiliation voted for her as americans are fed up. Its why theyre buying the book its why they voted for donna deegan. And for the next year and a half, everything do just make sure you have a plan to vote and to convince others to do so. On that note, tom, what thank you. Tom. What was your favor, your good friend . Yeah, i have a story. Just something id like to share. You know, this narrow tive that, you know, you can kill someone. You know, its not the guns, its the people who kill. And that you can kill someone with a hammer, with a knife and even a frozen ham. Ive heard now, while its true, technically theres a superficial truth to it can kill somebody with fists and so on. Im not aware of any mass killings with a frozen ham and, you know, all you have to do is talk to some surge in and theres a mountain of evidence. Its one of the areas you that ive looked at for 30 years of research with no exception that im aware of, no credible exception. Theres never been a study that ive seen that hasnt shown that when you use a firearm let alone an ar 15, but even a pistol to attack someone, the likelihood is much greater 3 to 5 times greater that there will be a death. The victim die than when you use a knife and many more times greater than when you use some other you know. And you know, i think important to point out the absurdity of this position because if you think about it it took a musician ozzy osborne, who opened my eyes completely to this. But if you think about it, if you can as easily with a hammer or a frozen ham, you can a gun. Why dont we equip the military with hammers . Wouldnt you save us billions of dollars, you know. Why do we need all those tanks . And bombs and sniper rifles and so forth and. If the gun lobby really thought that the weapon didnt matter, why have they fought tooth nail for over 40 years now to militarize america and society and ensure as many people as possible purchase guns and as many people as possible carry guns . And why is it, you know, we have this permit, this carry why carry guns at all . People could just carry a frozen ham. Its also a lot cheaper. So this whole argument is absurd. But id just like to share quickly a story from last week thats more positive. But that one, the fred story stands out in my mind as well is we visited a few offices that were primarily republic can offices because we managed to distribute books and a more efficient way to the democrats and in a couple of cases in one case when fred and others who accompanied us told their personal stories. We had a staff member in that office and gave us not being partizan. Its just the fact that for the last 50 years, the gop has consistently obstructed measures to enhance public safety. Its just a fact, and i charts, you know, to show that, demonstrate that. But there was one case of a staff member who was quite stoic at the end broke down. Yeah. And case where a staff member more discreetly of a republican wrote to fred afterwards and said how she believe. Yeah appreciate it. Maybe you can tell us. Yeah it was a South Carolina congressman. A concern that if congressman whos staff you wouldnt expect would we would resonate with but about an hour after we left the office got an email from the staff member thanking us for coming in and for telling our story, letting us know that she agrees with us. So it is and i know the two of you probably know its the reason why, no matter what, we never shut up right. Because you got to keep talking about it to help people understand were not antigun and we dont hate the Second Amendment. We dance. And the more we talk about it. The more people will get that, you know, you listening to i want to ask everyone here a question. How long do you all think america has been this way with regards to its infatuation with guns and the the inability to do anything about it and 1980. This is not our history and that and thats the point this is and its the first myth we take on in the book we as a country in our history have always been a country with gun owners but with laws to protect those of us who want to live freely from gun violence. And, you know, i, i used the bruen case as an example of this. You know, people you all know the bruen cases. It was the Second Amendment suit, Supreme Court case that came up last year where the Supreme Court overturned a new york law and expanded gun rights. The thing is, the law they overturned it wasnt some new that was creating new friction that people didnt agree with. The red state, blue state, all that the law has been on books for over 100 years. They took over turn a law that was over a hundred years old. And the point of that is we as a country always pass gun safety laws. Thats who we are. It changed in 77. A guy by the name of Harlan Carter took over the nra now what people didnt know about Harlan Carter is he was a convicted murderer and they didnt know it because he changed a vowel in his in a21002 and i cant remember. But he was a convicted murderer. And this is the guy that pushed nra over the next bunch of years in the direction that they ultimately want. Changing who we are as a country when it comes to our relationship with guns. And they did it through the eighties and the nineties. But the real impact, the real explosion in guns happened as we headed into the 2000. This has not been going on for a really long in the context of our countrys history and really the the true explosion happened over the past 20 years. And so its time for us to understand the truth and to only vote for those who are absolutely committed to reducing gun violence. Listen, everybody, im going to say it like this. Stop trying to fall in with political candidates. It gets harder and harder to do. And you dont need to be in love with your candidate. And they dont need to be a perfect candidate. But if you are convinced they will, the steps to reduce gun violence, you better vote for them. So thank you. And just further towards fred said we lay out a number of actions that the average citizen can take because people feel powerless today. They feel that the gun lobby and their enablers are, you know, basically on the omnipotent and, you know, they basically will prevail politically and nothing can be further from the truth. But we lay out a number of actions. But first and foremost, as fred said, its important for people to get out, exercise the ballot. I know here in florida, there are 2. 6 million democrats who didnt vote. For example. So thats something that have to look at. But its not sufficient to look at candidate s who either some platitudes, some vague statements, you know, that im going to focus on gun violence. We need Firm Commitments them. We need to put their feet the fire and say if we elect you, will you, for example, an assault weapons ban, will you support repealing the that shields the gun industry from lawsuits for the most part its called plaque was passed 2005 so because if we only vote for people who make Firm Commitments to take concrete actions in this area, then if they fail to do so, we can hold them accountable. So its really important to select people and were seeing more people being elected now who are guns, safety advocates. And thats really important because i think this is at the forefront. This may be abortion issue. You know, at the forefront of National Consciousness today. And its really important that we take that into account in the ballot box, because those who dont to see change, those who want to see continuation of this trend that weve seen over the last 30, 40 years of expanding gun rights, despite the fact that we almost have 50,000 gun deaths. Thats the last count in 2021 in the country. You know, they are tend to be gun extremists, tend to be single issue voters. They do call their members of congress, they do pepper them with leaders. They do make major donations. So we need to also take actions. And as i mentioned, we mentioned a number in the book because id like to just create an analogy of how ridiculous this our Current Situation is mean. You just have to open the papers to out weve seen all these cases of people rocking, knocking on the wrong door, pulling in the drive away, going to the wrong car, a parking lot, which ive done multiple times and getting shot, surely. You know, if weve reached a point, if that is just unacceptable for a Civil Society and something must be done about it. Just to give you an example of what weve done with firearms. So in it was a gun carrying in particular in the 1980s, we slowly started introducing these right to carry laws. And again, florida was a laboratory seem to be a laboratory for every bad gun law avenger grad. Yeah every toxic law there is. And so now we have concealed carry in every state, open carrying of in most states, about 45 of them. So this narrative from, the gun lobby and the slow gains and all the advertising messaging did succeed in convincing some americans a portion of the country that theyre safer carrying a gun with a gun in the home. And so forth. In fact, we now have as opposed to and jamie was born 20 years ago, we have times more people all in the country. Thats translates to about 10 million more people carrying a gun every day. It used to be that some people would carry a gun from time to time. Now its carrying every day. And now what are we doing in 27 states . The florida law is going to take effect in the summer permit list, carry long door. So first we increased by millions the number of people carrying guns. Now were saying you no longer need a permit. And i want to draw the analogy with cars. Its like saying let us five fold increase from i think theres about 100 and 7080 million, lets say 200 million cars on the road in the united states. Okay. So well increase that to a thousand a billion cars on the road, which in itself would create more accidents because its a numbers game. And at the same time, you know, longer need a permit, you no longer need a drivers education. You no longer need to know rules of the road because thats part of training people. Thats part of a permit, is explaining to them when its appropriate to use lethal force and marksman sharp and so forth. So taking away any rules and just handing over are multiplying manyfold the number of cars on the road at the same time saying here are the keys. You dont need to know the rules of the road. You dont need to learn how to drive a car and so forth. And thats what were doing with these lethal instruments called guns. I got to Say Something to what tom just said, and then were going to take questions. Over the past 20 years, just couple of the things you hear that we take kind of the bulk is we dont need new laws. Theres plenty of laws on the books right. But over the past 20 years, theres been whole lot of new laws passed. But its been things like permit list carry, stand your ground. Theres been a lot of new gun, just unfortunately not one that protect us from gun violence. Its ones that actually more gun sales. So which ties to the second myth of the idea of a slippery youve all heard that if we pass one law were on a slope. Theyre coming for the guns. And they use that notion to literally double the number of guns in america. And years. Okay. So its not incorrect to say weve actually been on a slippery slope because every single time they push back against anything, theyre passing laws to loosen restrictions, doubling the number of guns in america to the point where someone getting shot, like tom said, when they ring the wrong or when they pawn the wrong driveway, it actually isnt surprising. In fact, just during covid alone and correct me if im wrong, we added about 10 million guns, seven and a half. Seven. So, yes, new owners, new owners. Okay. Could be more than you know. So and was deemed the covid surge because the last administration when we were all in an economy that was shut down. I know you all remember that gunshots treated as essential. All right. Dont ever let that escape you. And that was a political decision. And it is why the importance of voting matter so deeply. So with tom, are you ready for some questions for everybody. Chris, you have to go first. Well, i did want point out the books were not essential during the pandemic, which we had we had some disagreement with. I wanted to get your your point of view on what seems to be, in my opinion, a driving of using instrument like gun violence and gun Constitutional Rights to really drive fear and a loss of control which is permeating, in my point of view, permeating society and leading to some of these more dramatic gun violence episodes like the first. Yeah, well, in there was a good op ed today in the New York Times by somebody who is a whos a trainer of people during this course is this course thats no longer required here in florida. And theres so much stoking of fear even in these courses. So i took the course myself so i could understand whats involved. And its about a three hour one time course, which tell us its really not sufficient to. Prepare somebody for combat situation. I mean, Law Enforcement, if you think about it, they get ongoing training in marksmanship and and the law and so forth. But theres the constant stalking fear. And you know, they prepare you for all these scenarios of somebody, you know, boogeymen coming at you and theyre in your home or in a now and certainly we see that in these active shooter drills that is place in a school thats become a massive industry in itself. And i think a lot of psychologists have second thoughts about, the trauma thats being created, you know, through these drills in the schools, kids are traumatized, afraid to go to school. I mean, its, you know, widespread. So fear is used. Its been the major weapon used by the gun lobby to convince people to arm themselves. And in fact, i just want to insert one number here, because, you know, some americans do believe it more than was the case 20 years ago before some of these campaigns really got underway that theyre safer in the home with a gun when. In fact, a gun in one of the best studies that was done by dr. Kellermann, an emergency physician, and his team, found that for every time a gun is used in the home against an intruder, an is shot. 22 members of the household are shot. In other words, 22 times more frequently is that gun turned either on a domestic against oneself or a child has some kind of deadly accident. So nothing could be further from the truth. But fear is constantly used as a way to increase sales and to convince people that arming the country basically is our best way forward. But we just compare ourselves with other countries and we see what an outlier we have we are with regard to any comparable and thus realized country. We have by far the highest levels of gun ownership in the world, private gun ownership and as well we have 25 times to gun homicide rate. For example, as when you combine either high Income Countries and were the only country that has as the number one cause of deaths among young people to 19 basically is gunfire. So, you know, we get a lot of hype about the benefits of guns but its not even close when you look at the pros and cons, you know that the industry the lobby americans that is good guys, bad guys and the good guys need to be afraid of the bad guys, which gets to the whole mystique you shared on defensive uses, because they want us all to believe we need to carry a gun because were at risk of somebody committing violence on us. The data doesnt support it, not even a little bit, but this whole good guys bad, that theme turned into the ultimate gun sales bonanza after sandy because about five days after the sandy hook shooting, the response of nra through wayne lapierre. Youve all heard that name was, this and this. The sentence had never been uttered before or that. All right. So youll know the sentence when i say it. The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. That was their response to. Sandy hook, it gets to your question. Its all about making us think our safety depends on us having. A gun they turn sandy hook through fear and threats like that into the ultimate gun sales bonanza. Listen. Everything they said they wanted it actually happened and weve doubled the arsenal in 20 years we are not safer with more guns in more hands next not good. First, fred, i want to i still remember the day still remember the day we were out celebrating valentines day when i looked at my phone and i just my goes out to you, jamie. A blessed memory in your family. I have never been to that point, but i have dealt with guns and been in situations situations. What chris brought up and what i think youre bringing up perception, reality okay, we can sit here and give every logical, rational, scientifically based argument. But the perception is there are guys out there looking to me and it is being promoted every day, be it on social media, Certain Networks are constantly promoting this. Yeah. To where and i can tell you every argument ive had with people, ive carried a gun. I lived in israel, i on a border kibbutz. I understand what a carrying a gun means. How do we impact people who are hearing this that anybody who doesnt look like you talk like you believe, like you is out to take your life. This is, i think the biggest hurdle that i cannot see how we can get over. So ill say this i think the people are convinced. 80 of america agrees with us the polls are clear thats more popular than apple pie. Okay. The way theyre buying this book convince me they really do agree with us. The issue is in convincing the people the issue is convincing to make it important enough to vote because we have a minority of people currently serving in congress who are able to use the tools of congress to prevent anything meaningful from done. It is actually a huge accomplish ment that back in july the president was able sign the first gun safety legislation in 30 years, the Safer Communities act. But it takes time to bend the curve on the gun death rate and on the instances gun violence. The good news is there is data that the atf and department of justice are starting to collect, showing how parts of that law that were passed are in fact intervening and stopping future instances of violence. So how do we do it . Listen, i think america is convinced we need to get them and we need to get them motivated to get up and vote weve got to fire those who continue to tell the same old lies about gun rights and gun versus those who want to reduce gun violence. We have to fire them. Thats what we need to show up in historic numbers in 24 and fire people. And it has to be clear this issue was reason why. Yes. And just further to what fred said, you that is a challenge and what you asking . This applies to so many other feet feels like Climate Change and so forth because you have the deniers and you have the powerful interests that keep us from tackling these problems, you know, and we encountered during the pandemic with misinformation and disinformation. And i just, i guess, refer you to we have a chapter in our book where weve tried to tackle for the first time, how do you deal with misinformation, to be sure, there will always be people who dont care about facts made up their minds. But i just point out to you all that if you look at the Political Landscape in America Today and im not a political pundit, but i do know that 42 , an increasing number, increasing number of young people are consider themselves independents. So theyre not entrenched in the two camps. You know, we often depict in i think, a very oversimplified way. You know this country is in an epic struggle. And to be sure, its a hyper partizan, period, but that theres epic struggle between, you know, half the country versus the other half and no no grays on no one in between. Whereas fact, we see Public Opinion shifting, which is one bit of that you can shift Public Opinion, but you there are many people still who do have minds in this area. And i think why fred and i in particular, ill let others judge, but i think we make a good is because we bring Different Things to the table and. I think the personal stories are as important as the facts, the statistics the charts and so forth, and they can be compelling and people have written books, survivors about experience, but also i remember reading the name escapes me now a lady who a who wrote a book that she purchased a gun for the first time and wrote about her experience and got rid of it after a few months because she found it terrifying what had happened that, you know, oh my god, i left a gun sitting on the table and my four or five year old was playing there and so forth and realized all the perils involved in gun ownership and all the responsibility. And she no longer wanted a part of it. So we need those personal stories from survivors, from people like that reporter as well as the data. Thats what were trying to achieve. Here is a little bit of everything, but again, i encourage you take a look what weve tried to do to kind of lay the groundwork for how we tackle this information in this area. We certainly need partnerships. We need partners with social media companies. You know, we need partnerships with i. T professionals because theres no way we can manually identify all the misinformation thats out there. We need people to focus on of the organizations like nra and what theyre putting out an immediate need debunk the lies and get that out on social media. So theres other things that talk about, but we lay out sort of the first steps. I havent seen do that of how to address all the misinformation thats out there. I know were getting close to the end. I saw your hand up and im sure there were a few hours im sorry. You know, i had a question myself, but mitch, ill come to you next. Yes, i just was im surprised that it doesnt seem like more organizations like speak out against like the increase open carry or they are or whatever they can carry a thing. They just try to take a little i, i love your question and listen it drives me crazy because so many of the rank and file agree with us because they they want to go home at night. They know they know reduce gun violence is also good for their public safety. So so i wish more of the organizations did there are some chiefs sheriffs that have gotten far more vocal than they used to be. We need to expand that number for sure. But youre 100 right. You know listen. When permanece kari was pastor florida their their initial press conference included a few of the really conservative sheriffs from in the northern part of the state. But you talked to the rank and file across the state they hate idea of permanent loss carry and they well they actually stopped carry the only reason why open carry didnt come is privately they said if you go there, we will not support it because again, they want to go home at night too. Yeah, this is a question as a criminologist always boggles my mind because who has more skin in the game than a Law Enforcement officer whos at the front lines and in how do Law Enforcement officers, when they do get killed, its over 90 get shot. So and increasingly with air, 50 ins and that type of weapon. So and it would have frozen have not aware of even one case or hammers is very unlikely so you know you would think that they would be motivated to make a change. And, you know, this one way that guns facilitate homicide because its really hard to kill an armed target yet like a Police Officer whos trained body armor and so forth, as well as protected targets like politicians as this person, i guess with baseball bat found out the other day its hard to do that without a firearm so firearms facilitate homicides of different kinds but you know by contrast with whats happening in this country in canada where i from and i taught for 30 years the Canadian Association of chiefs of police came around about 20, 30 years ago and said, you know, we have to do something about firearms. Theyre a direct threat to us as well as the community. And they joined with the gun violence prevention movement. And im certainly hoping to see more that here in the u. S. , one of the differences that Law Enforcement here is elected. So and theres so many more rural jurisdictions in the country, rural districts are urban ones. And its hard to get on a platform of. You know, we really have to do something about these guns and these air fifteens and so forth. So, you know, this political system that we have also is an to addressing issue. So i just want to say one more thing and then so while theyre not publicly coming out, i will tell you in the state, florida, the number one user of red flag laws, a gun safety law that was passed three weeks after parkland, the number one user, Sheriff Grady Judd in polk county, a highly conservative sheriff who goes on the nra programing, who acts all about, you know, you know, hes all for loosening of gun laws. He is the number one user of red flag laws in the state. So they talk one way, but they sure use the tools when we provide them so much. Im going to use the owners prerogative and ask the last question. Oh, and that question is one of the things that i found so effective in this. In your book was the explanation you give to all of us about how the Second Amendment, the notion of the Second Amendment has been destroyed, eroded over the years to justify the progun. Could you talk a little bit about that . Ill just say one thing, because were not scholars, but then nor most our critics. Right. And theres one person who is a constantly scholar, is a fellow by the name of michael waldman. Hes with the Brennan Center in new york. And he studied the framers of the constitution. Their conversation ends, you know, in their meeting at the constitu National Convention back in 1787. And he looked at the notes of. Madison, for example, and he found not one to refer since to the use of guns for personal selfdefense, for hunting, for shooting sports, all the conversation dealt with a militia, you know, well regulated militia. So just if you look at the themselves and what their intentions were, they would have never envisioned in a million years that americans are using weapons of war. And dont let yourself be fooled. Ive heard from different designers of the ar 15 that was designed for military purposes. It was slightly modified, became dmca weapon used in vietnam. There was no civilian market for that type of firearm back in the 1950s. Its a weapon of war. And the framers have never imagined that these weapons of war would be held by probably more than 20 million americans privately to be used against their fellow citizens, either as socalled defensive tool or in these shootings that were seeing increasingly. So since you asked last question, i guess i get the last word. You are 100 right. The word ive used to describe it over the past years is they bastardized the meaning of the Second Amendment. And ill give you an example of how, because the Second Amendment is limited in what it says and again, like not a constitution scholar, but its pretty specific, too. So in 2008, there was a supreme case that led to the heller decision. Right. You all know the heller. The heller decision in in its findings added a phrase to gun rights, common use. Thats not part of the Second Amendment, but its part the heller decision in 2008. And heres why that. In 2008, a ar 15 sells were about 4 of all guns sold and again, remember i told you now, 15 years later, 25 , i i the reason why i continue my lawsuit against smith and wesson and why ill have filed my what would be my lawsuit is a claim with the federal trade commission. Why im trying to get senator to use that claim hold hearings is i want to get my hands on the documents that followed the 2008 heller decision where the gun lobby, i believe, went on a Business Strategy to over manufacture. Remember what they said back then. These guns are for hunting and sport. Right. But they manufactured far beyond the size of those markets and. They started doing very subtle marketing and later on, not so subtle to have to sell these millions and millions and millions of guns that they were selling, they had nothing to do with and sport, and they did it in 15 years. But here we 15 years later and argument now for saying you cant anything about these weapons is theyre in common use supreme decision leads Business Strategy Business Strategy may soon be validated by another Supreme Court decision where we may end up having the Supreme Court tell us we cant do anything about it. And thats they bastardized the Second Amendment. If if youre