lives and you can watch all student cam documentaries anytime online at student cam stockport. >> tonight i'm excited to welcome melissa williamson celebrating the release of "sandy hook: an american tragedy and the battle for truth". this is the work ofhumane investigation into the tragedy that follows tragedy . as people who dubbed themselves truthers but do not acknowledge the truth try to change the narrative of events that actually occurred and deal further pain on to those who have experienced it . it also examines how misinformation and conspiracy theories and people who promote such things have emboldened groups to reject the facts of white supremacy, masking and vaccination and the validity of our elections . elizabeth williamson is a featured writer and former editorial board member of the new york times and she has previously written for the washington post and wall street journal. williamson will be joined in conversation tonight by kara swisher. please join me inwelcoming elizabeth williamson and kara swisher .[applause] >> i like that you have to do the work afterwards and cleanup. that's my favorite part of this introduction. elizabeth and i have been talking about this topic. it's a topic that's been i wouldn't say near and dear to my heart but i'm especially troubled by what's been happening with online social media particularly and how it's sort of congested weapon eyes and amplified hate. and obviously one of the first instances of this and something i know very well was sandy hook. there's a couple instances of this obviously enough and the reason i'm late is i was interviewing kathy griffin who got investigated, was put on the no-fly list and became the subject of death threats. she's funny but her story is not as funny as she is so you see it iterating in little places many years ago and sandy hook was probably the most reprehensible version although january 6 is in competition in terms of how much our society and the way we talk to each other has changed dramatically including with conspiracy theories running wild and big tech becoming part of the body politic including everywhere, just everywhere. election lies, anti-vax, you're seeing it a lot in ukraine with the russians at a bio weapon. it's one line after another. anyway, this book is amazing. it's depressing but it's also clear what we have to do about it so i'm excited to talk about this. i'm going to read quickly i think the key line that i think is important and i want to start from there. driven by ideology or profit or for no sound reason at all conspiracy theories would use technology to unite the world to hunt and attack vulnerable people. it happened many times since but sandy hook was the first mass tragedy to spawn an online circle of people impermeable and hostile to reality or that the mainstream media, law enforcement or families of the dead for who deniers added immeasurably to the pain. there decades distant standing hawks sands stands as a warning of the power of the unquenchable viral live to lead the firewalls of tradition to established science and to laugh at the foundation of our democratic institutions. this book tells the truth of how it happened. let's start with that. we talked about this but talk about how, i want to get in to what happened and focus on alex jones and others but talk about the bigger picture for people in terms of why this was as you said a canary in the coal mine. talk a little bitabout that . >> many pozner was a sandy hook dad whose son was the youngest victim and he had a tech background. he was interested in computer when the industry was in its infancy and he knew how the algorithms propelled lies onto social media platforms and feed them to millions of people. so he was the one who told me this isn't a one off that was maybe spurred by sandy hook being a watershed moment in the gun-control battle for example. what this really was was a foundational story of how misinformation moves and how people were willing as they say like, a group of people were willing to just deny and accept the truth andfact and science . so it moved from pizzagate to q-anon to january 6 and there we were at the steps of the capital. in 2021 i was trying to finish the last couple of chapters and i was thinking i'm procrastinating here but i want to see what's going on at the capital so i turn on cnn and people were scaling the walls of the capital and i was thinking i guess this would be the last chapter in the book because it was exactly the same. delivery methods, often the same characters and people spreading these lies. >> talk about how it started, how it began because len pozner was an interesting interview but one of the things is he himself was interested in conspiracy theory weather, what was the one, the moon landing ? conspiracy theories, not the da vinci code. they've beenaround since the beginning of time essentially . >> one of the interesting things i learned was america has always been of conspiracists nation and one of the historians that i spoke with catherine olmsted from uc davis was saying where a nation of immigrants and we sort of define ourselves and create our own identity by defining the other. and then that taken a step further means demonizing the other. that was something that sort of drove people but this was a little different. it wasn't just keeping a check on government or saying well, government does lie. we have these instances of it happening. this was never trusting the government and always distrusting the official narrative and always seeing that narrative assomething to be denied . there have been plenty of things the government hasdone over the course of the years, lying about various things . dozens and dozens of examples but what happened here was began well before this. was it in the reagan administration when they said don't trust government, where did they haven't beginning this conceptual idea that birthed alex jones that grabbed onto with whatever conspiracy theory, among them january 6 for sure but he initially gotstarted on sandy hook . >> it had its alex jones had his roots in the early 90s. he was always distrustful of government. he identified with this white christian national movement out west. after the branch davidian compound sees near waco he rebuilt the davidian's church , raised $93,000 for the effort and a group of volunteers so he had strong ties to that world which almost by definition was distrustful of government and you know, keep out of our business and he appealed to them. he was a celebrity among the crowd and they were kind of his core audience. >> why did he get that way from your perspective? >> it's hard to know. i struggled with trying to define who is alex jones. but everybody knows whoalex jones is, correct ? which wasn't the case actually. seven years ago. people didn't, this entire room would be like i don't know, i'm coming up empty . it's hard to know exactly. he is conspiratorial bynature . one of the his employees told me it doesn't really matter if alex jones believes what he says. it matters that his listeners do. and there were millions of them and they were willing to defend those false beliefs. he was operating on the fringes of media at the time. i remember interviewing, i was completely struck by it but oddly enough i had ralph reed at one of my early conferences. i was noticing the right wing was doing rather well online and it was because they had been zeroed out of othermedia . there they found a for diagram to get their influence. talk radio was another area which was jones bus alternative media was what they were looking for, some fashion to get theword out and undercover because nobody paid attention . he called it, i like to listen to alex jones when i'm driving between clients because he represented the other side of information. but that was before alex jones got his start. >> what did you like about it? >> to him it was an intellectual exercise.what if we look at what the government said about the moon landing and we look at what the conspiracy theorists say and we can figure out how is the sausage made, how do they figure out, what's the basis for their doubt? these photographs, these footsteps. he thought it was fun to look at those things. he didn't think it was toxic in any way. >> know, because at that time alex jones for all his association definitely was a different person. he was a lot less toxic and dark and he was around 2020. it shifted from those kinds of things to more of a propaganda angle. what things i hate is theidea of calling it fake news . is it propaganda or is it not. that's another way to put it. but something purposely done for propaganda purposes. and sometimes propaganda, it can drive an agenda and it can be negative, not necessarily. i mean a lot of what zelensky is doing right now is to sell, it's a fact that they're the underdog but there's a lot of bells and whistles that go along with that . the idea was this guy was doing this stuff and sort of living along the edges and needed something to take himself upward. so explain how that happened. this tragedy happens, unimaginable for everybody. talk about how it unfolded? >> so these are the alex? >> the whole incident and why this one, there's shooting, why did this one get that kind of attention? >> obviously as everyone in this room knows and can probably remember where you were when this happens . it wasn't just an unimaginable crime, the slaughter of 21st graders trying to hide in their classrooms. and the six women who tried to protect them. and initially, even the parents themselves couldn't countenance this. the people around them, they told me about how they wake up even today and say some mornings, that was a nightmare. and then realize no, actually it's my life. so i think there were a number of people who congregated online, especially moms who had children around the age and they just couldn't believe it. they would show up at the sandy hook facebook group was one of the biggest and i are groups at the time.there were hundreds. they would gather at night. they would talk all night long. they would show upusually after work . come in and out and just exchange their theories and we talked about this. the earliest facebook groups were quilting andknitting groups . >> i told the story about when i met cj for the first time he made me go meet a quilting group that had made a quilt for aol online and they were lovely people who had an interest, they brought them all and kept, they gave him cookies and it was lovely . but then it turns very ugly quickly. but that was the idea. that communities of people would come together online. it was very active among gay people who couldn't get together , etc.. so it was really a great way to solve the problem of like-minded people who had like-minded interests. >> building each other up. >> but this is what happened. >> that's the eerie thing because it was the same kind of impulse. let's gather online. let's each add our piece to the quilt. where were the police helicopters, why were the victims transferred by ambulance instead of helicopter ? why did porta potty's show up at the scene? did someone plan in advance? what were the police doing, who was in the woods? everybody contributed some piece of this crazy quilt that these facebook people were building. this like, conspiracy blob. every new fact that emerged. >> it was like a party. this has a history in crime because the golden state killer, there's all kinds of stuff around. police work that actually ends up. >> there were a lot of true crime groups at the time. some of those moreinto the sandy hook hoax group but it was building this whole body of conspiracy . some of these young moms showed up and they just thought i'm here for anybody who can tell me that somehow this didn't happen. >> they're worried about their own children. >> lenny described it as a form of ptsd. that these particular individuals and i think we all felt alittle of that . that was one part of the group. they fell away pretty quickly. they were pretty easily convinced when lenny himself actually joined this group one night to try and set the record, his birth certificate, postmortem exam, school records to say look, here i am. i'm using my power as a grieving father i'm going to answer your questions and give you this material . you can examineit . i'm happy to answer any question you have and all of these younger moms were convinced that they started to the end and kind of join him in a separate group. but then that left the rump group of really hard-core conspiracists and they were gone by alexjones so he took hold of it and what happens ? >> those individuals became alex jones content providers. they were the people showing up at newtown two dozen times or they were people who were following the families around or sending endless public records requests trying to get grisly details of the crime and photos and whatnot and publish them. and they were people who just were harassing the families to know and both online and increasingly in person which they would show up because this couldn't be true. we're going to prove it and it's like a detective novel. >> the other thing is when you have people like the aol thing, when you have people in this type cohesive group building each other up, supporting each other, exchanging information and these are people who would normally be isolated. there was a person who would hand you a xerox sheet of theories on the subway or your crazy uncle who when cornered at the family reunion with his jfk theories but now they found each other through the magic of social media. they all found each other, they exchanged their theories and created this tightknit social bond among themselves so anybody who was there can say no, this is the truth, this is what happened.here are my documents. whether they were a first responder or another participant or they were a parent , they were felons and they were threats. and they would break what they were doing. >> what they had to be doing was righteous. >> and it was a form of psychic income that they never got. >> and also income income. talk about the money alex jones made. i'll get to the platforms in the second but he started talking about it incessantly and again when people say just asking questions you really have to wonder what's going on. that's an excuse for a lot of stuff. it's very famously talk or carlson does it. but lots of people, joe rogan does it sometimes. >> and a lot of people are saying just asking questions which i never say by the way. of course i'm asking questions. >> but they're based in fact as opposed to talk or carlson. and i'll throw seanhannity into . when he was doing this he was making money. he started doing it and it looks good for ratings. i often decried people who are like, we're not really doing but in this case he saw the numbers. >> when alex jones started getting called on the carpet for this around 2014, he had two things. one was that he didn't come with the series, he was only repeating the sayings of others which is false if you listen to his broadcast from that day which of course i have within hours of the shooting he had started to say this is a plot to get americans guns. so that was false. the other thing was i never made any money from this. as a matter of fact these kinds of controversial theories, i lose listeners when i put this. that's absolutely wrong. between 2013 and 2016 his audience double to 50 million viewers a month. >> and money? >> and money, the first thing i had to go on were records from his divorce. in 2013 2014 and there he had his personal income was $5 million a year now some records have started to emerge just in the last several days that suggest that during the trump presidency which was when alex jones was really riding high, he had revenues of more than $50 million a year so $50million . much of it sandy hook genius business model . all he was doing was he sells products that are absolutely geared to that paranoia and fears of his audience. it's dry food for your doomsday proper shelter. it's untraceable gun components so you've got a weapon. you don't need to register whenthe end of times comes . it's vitamin supplements and diet supplements for people who don't trust traditional medicine. it's fluoride free toothpaste because of fluoride the government puts in your water is meant to rot your brain. he sells this stuff from a warehouse outback of his headquarters . $50 million ayear . >> so he taking advantage of his customers and also his products at the same time using crap to sell that . >> is a perfect crap circle. >> you know, it works unfortunately . he then of course used social media platforms to do this but he wasn't just. he also appeared a lot of comedy started appearing in mainstream media whether it's the megan kelly show, joe rogan, he was on a lot of different places. was one part of online was important for and use the same tactic for january 6. it turns out he's one of the organizerssome talk about that . and then what the platforms did or did not do. >> 'searly business model again, the model that after carrie allen who in 1971 wrote this sort of seminal conspiracists told called none dare call it conspiracy blaming a global cabal of bankers saying they're the ones behind american policy not elected officials. he used to sell his theories and he was a real darling of the john birch society, the far right berkshires and he used to sell his theories on that time video cassettes. cassette tapes and he did it through mail order and that was how alex jones started. he and kelly jones, his ex-wife would create these teacher length films from bohemian grove and railing about the globalist or whatever and they would not only send them out to you if you contacted them like by their phone or later on their website, they encouraged that people who bought them pass them around, let all your friends to see them, spread this. that was exactly the verbiage he was using during 2020 and the run-up to the insurrection. >> but instead they were using these platforms which are more effective than cassette tapes . >>exponentially obviously . and one of the arguments, i'm going to read yousomething i wrote . in a minute, in a second but they went there because these were platforms that allow them to do this at a much faster rate. without any tracing and any kind of editorial function. and anonymity. so they started to do that. >> then complained to these platforms. now, i'm not surprised but explain what happened . >> nothing. that's exactly right. absolutely nothing. >> that's how many laws there are governing any tech companies so you know, zero. actually one is very good for them but go ahead. >> so lenny tried to get this material taken down. just a backup for a second, alex jones material, he starts putting every broadcast on youtube and his youtube page, his videos were racking upherculean views for example .he had a twitter account. he had all the things everybody has wants to spread this stuff now . we just exponentially increased his reach. and that kind of prepared him for where he was in the trump presidency. so he had doublehis audience . he had put this stuff all out online. >> who is more powerful, twitter or facebook? >> at that time, youtube was one of the most powerful. so he was putting his videos on there. >> and explain nothing. >> then lenny when you started to see this couldn't believe it. >> lenny having realized trying to debunk these hard-core conspiracists, having realized that wasn't going to work, the first tools in his toolkit for copyright laws so he had a memorial page that had photos of noah, it was his family videos. he owns that stuff but the conspiracists were going on and taking that material and putting it into their videos are on to their websites or whatever . the use of copyright laws to get that stuff taken down. that was the first real effective thing but when he went to appeal to them directly, he got an automated message. he described it as standing in front of iron doors and your knocking and no one, you can't even make your not heard much less anyone opening to you. it was just completely futile . >> so they couldn't get that except when the he went to copyright. they couldn't appeal tothis is a bunch of lies, they're making things up . this got no reaction from any of them. >> none. >> so we went to copyright which they are familiar with. that's the only law that they're bound by, correct . what did you think of this and what did he think of it? you call me like carol, why are they doing this? because they can. because they're unaccountable and non-ungovernable. they're not to be governed by anybody. >> exactly and as you said, these are, your analogy about facebook sticks with me. mark zuckerberg has built a city without police, without fire departments, without trash pickup. and we all have to live it. >> and he gets all the rent from our movements around the city. >> it's called the purge, it's a good movie. >> so what happened to shift that because he did getthem to start to pay attention . as you said public shaming and in the book there is a really great incident where kera interviewed alex jones or interviewed mark soccer bar about alex jones. asked him before he sat down, before they were recording said you're going to take down this material. you're going to take down alex jones, you're going to applyfor the platform him . and he was like, number he said that's ridiculous and i said you are. he essentially said who's going to make me and i send me. i brought it up right away. thinking he would avoid that question or the thorny question of alex jones, nice segue right over to the holocaust. holocaust denial being basically oh, those people are just mistaken. no, he said they don't mean to live and i it was the definition of a holocaust denier that amy to live and malevolently . in that case and i want you to react to this is i wasn't surprised bywhat they did . when he moved from that, we were talking about alex jones and he felt uncomfortable because at the time it was getting a lot of attention and he said let's move on to the holocaust and i was like number okay, don't do it mark. i felt that is apparent. >> that was in an earlier version of the book. of the things i did was not interrupt. i wanted to say when he started to say holocaust deniers don't meanto live and therefore should be able to say what they think , instead of saying you fatuous popping j, of course they mean to live. interesting, please go on. were you surprised by that because you were right in the midst of this . he actually said the quiet part out loud which is a way of putting it . >> it's just like what facebook used to say back in those times or a little earlier . who who never played by china's rules. this was something that lenny picked up on. and he did an op-ed in which he called zuckerberg out on the holocaust line and on your not even protecting people who are targeted by holocaust deniers and we are even lower down the food chain. that got a real reaction. and within a month, alex jones was off of facebook only because apple did it first. they were like dominoes. it was because tim cook did it and twitter did it and all the others but they were going to do it withoutdoing it 100 percent . so talk about, getting questions from the audience. where are we now with this? i think you move from surprised that they're doing it to how it ended up because sandy hook hoax page is gone. what about all this material? >> what's interesting is the sandy hook hoax facebook was gone but when we did our first conversation, the sandy hook hoax twitter account suddenly disappeared. that was two weeks ago. so it's pretty amazing how little they do to try and police these platforms. >> and do you give them any excuses? this happened in covid, it's starting q-anon of course, pizzagate, other mass shootings. what do you imagine have to happen? do you think things are improving because they're starting to do this black cats white for the ukraine thing. but they didn't even wake, it's like please do this. i used it be like the call center for these places. the one i had was sheryl sandberg and i said lori clinton is not a lizard. i've met her, she's not a lizard. >> .. >> what happens next from your perspective? >> well, on alex jones, so at the end of last year, right, there were four separate defamation lawsuits filed by the families of ten victims. alex jones has lost those suits because he refused to cooperate and to give his business records or to provide adequate depositions. so basically just defaulted himself, and so they won. so it's a sweeping victory for the families, but it means that now in the spring just in ina couple weeks from now the trials will begin. so juries offset damages. >> it's just damages? >> all but he's lost and all the juries have to do decide how much she should pay them in damages. >> and he will of course declare bankruptcy or -- >> he's already scurrying and running and setting up and juggling above of llc siesta try to hide his income. >> so the paint that these families continue, continues. >> it still around. but now it's brutal policy level because sadly they're joined by many more people who have been wronged by the same thing. you know, there are some interesting moves on section 230 which is the legal shield that is platforms have that keep them from being sued for defamation themselves. >> this is a very early law, part of the communications decency act that gives broad immunity not just a tech companies but it was meant to allow the nascent internet to take off. >> it sure did. >> and the question is, if you pull it off what will happen? there's also some very good arguments for not doing so. >> absolutely. >> what do you imagine will happen? will be continue in this sort of information desert that's full of information or data -- >> rattlesnakes. >> what do you imagine happening? that i'm going to ask some questions. >> okay. i think it's anyone's guess. i think the reason that i wrote this book and that i was so compelled to get this into the world is that these families shared with me the worst day of their lies because they really feel like if people read this book and get mad they will begin to push for some kind of policy change. and i think that's what i hope for. >> and what would that be because it does run-up -- >> the department of information security, you know, what would the department of information security be able to police these platforms or at least try and come up with some kind of broad fixes? i i mean, we could be pessimistc about this but at least people are talking about it and there seems to be some bigger brains in the room now, and it does seem that the platforms are not able to just shut those iron doors on anybody with a complaint anymore. i mean, linney is wrote in that he got the number. he really felt like i'm going -- i'm going to make this my life's work but is it really fair that the grieving parent should make it his wife's work after losing his son to get these platforms to behave themselves? >> exactly. how old would noah be? >> well, no one would be 15 this year. november 20 he would be 15. >> this is how long -- 16, the age of one of my children. i'm going to reduce him to because i want, i want you to answer the final question i have here in this thing. it says it was about trump and twitter about whether they should take him off. he had violated all the rules almost continually. he's the most high-profile example of someone being deep platforms but he just broke the rules, , that's all he did. they can use anywhere they want everyday but that's what he did he broke the rules. there are rules they don't enforce. it'll happens in recent weeks including at a fancy pants washington dinner party i had ie been testing campaigns with hypothetical scenario i made up. my premise was had been to ask what twitter management should do if mr. trump loses the 2020 election and the tweets and accurately the next day and for the rest of the month that there'd been widespread fraud and moreover, that people should rise up in armed insurrection to keep in an office. most people i pose this question do have the same response come throw mr. trump on twitter for inciting violence. if you said he should probably be only temper suspended. very few said he should be allowed to continue to use the service without repercussions since it's no longer the president. one high-level official asked me what i would do. my answer, i would never have let it get this bad to begin with. i wrote this in 2019. this was wholly a year and a half before this happened. i got called by all the executives at these companies and said how do i create such a terrible scenario? which of course is exactly what happened. >> right. >> so how does it not get, how did you get this bad to begin with and to me this was the moment that if we tolerate not just guns but this information, and how do you think we fix it? blow it up and start over. so i don't know. >> do you think blowing it up and starting over would be a better solution? >> one of the smartest thinkers on a set it's the biggest experiment in human communication and its failed. there are some people, i have star set, a star wars there he was think it's our office star trek where the one gets along, this multiracial group of people get along and even the villains get turned good and then there's star wars where everybody dies really. nobody comes out well. the empire is always striking back. i think we live in star wars and the not sure what to do about that. so let me ask some questions. this is -- jennifer griffin is here. the woman who is doing god's work. we love you. jennifer works for -- [inaudible] >> i've been tweaking love letters to her on the internet, on twitter. >> using your powers for good. >> but fantastic national security reporter, she's wonderful. was there ever any russian link to alex jones? what percentage of the shares were bought and what degree is russia behind this explosion of conspiracy theories in america? >> great question. so alex jones, we love this part out of our narrative, was a regular on rt. so you would get up -- >> russia today. >> kremlin funded state tv. he would get up in the middle of the night, his ex-wife told me, clamber out of bed ready to go on rt at all hours. he was eager to expand his platform by whatever means necessary. he's been a potent fan and apologist from the start. he admires that -- and actually think, you know, paul and i have talked about this. when i was reported in eastern europe it was, , even then not terribly long ago, it would've taken a pretty sophisticated foreign adversary like russia to sew the kind of transport that we're doing ourselves. and if we are worried about russia interfering in our next election, don't worry about it because we have already done it and will do it again. >> but was he funded -- talk about bots. >> i asked him about, when interviewed alex jones i asked about russia and rt, , and he wt absolutely bananas. it was the only time during our interview that he truly lost it. maybe wonder, what is your relationship there? it was either that he thought just that association with sort of ruin him with his audience, or there is something there but i don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist myself. i don't really know. but the box for something interesting. >> what degree was russia behind this explosion of conspiracy? >> look at what really struck me the other day. what did russia say about that maternity hospital that was bombed in ukraine? they said the pregnant women being evacuated were crisis actors. i mean, that is absolutely speak and the foreign minister said russia had been canceled. >> right, exactly. >> damn right they have. ridiculous to use a term like that. >> they gloried and -- russia has loved -- does when the reasons alex jones was on their early was to talk about american mayhem. there's nothing better than to broadcast news outside, in russia, about american gun related mayhem. >> went to the use to call a fellow traveler? anyway, one of the things about bots, i did a story, a bunch of good company but remember roseanne rosanne barr said that terrible thing and then samantha bee the week later said something not very nice about ivanka. the same bots ginning it up. they were like, getting on both sides of the roseanne thing saying, she's right. and then no, she's terrible. and they were all from the same company that was doing get. then humans get involved and the like look, a fight come kind of thing. so the bots started the fight. the same companies did the same thing with samantha bee. so they had -- they just wanted to create mayhem which to me felt like was the internet, was the thing in russia, the group that does this? russia uses contractors. meaning they hire these people for ransomware ranso. it's not just that. it's iterated other places. what what groups are disproportionately affected by these conspiracists laws, minorities, , women, low income, lgbtq, et cetera? >> all of the above. an essential element of conspiracy theory is demonizing and division. so you pick a group and you hold them out, and in the case of sandy hook it was the families, the first responders, have you and you sort the kind of the facts and the truth, and in all of these other theories, you know. i mean alex jones is a master at this. every time he's been sued is because he's demonized a certain group. chobani yogurt he said is important emigrant rapist into the united states. so it's always about demonizing one of these groups. >> but they don't care, right? present will be. whatever sales. >> yeah. engagement is an arrangement. >> a lot of discussion at ofe restoration trust american-based underreporting what you believe we need to do to improve trust and american institutions like the media government and each other? >> that's a big question. you would have a whole nother program on that. >> actually the conflict in ukraine is very interesting bringing together nato again,, s people agree, which is a sad pathetic way. >> that kind of unity has a salutary effect of course. one of the wording things is the erosion of trust in the mainstream media because as one of the sandy hook lawyers put it, if you are no arbiters of truth, and anybody can be an arbiter of truth, and that's what this is. >> meaning and what has own set of facts. people tonight in agree on a basic set of facts. >> i mean -- >> do you have an answer? >> i really wish i knew. >> it's an interesting issue when edwin is getting, there in silence. something we used to talk about, all you are doing is creating silo after silo and not just come it happen on cable news, everywhere. media literacy, what age to start teaching young people it and how and our adults a lost cause? [laughing] >> my mother is. i pointed her to you, jennifer. [laughing] >> how do we restore the trust in the media? or media literacy. as early as possible. and i do see, even among my own boys who are both here, -- >> how old are they? >> david is 18 and charlotte is 25. >> twenty-five, you were there. >> they both just had their birthday song some still dt years math. >> but your point -- >> their highly skeptical both of their own use in their own use and also of what they read online. i think that's a really -- >> i think gen z, two of my kids are speeded how old are you? >> i for my kids, 16 and 19, the older ones picky others can't we just avoid a big argument with rick grunow last night. you think a baby knows more. the baby can't read, rick. it was a weird twitter fight with that idiot. she thinks her baby can read. i'm like, okay. but they have same thing, this give in people are more critical of believing anything online. >> and the truly, in the book there some really interesting research on something called pre-bunking which is about teaching people how the sausage is made so that they can recognize the elements of the conspiracy theory and they're less likely to share it and more likely to report it. >> harder to shared. there's a lot of things do you really want to do that you want to share? >> i love that. that's a study done out and a lot of work being done at a cambridge and he think that because it uses -- one of the things that drive some of these conspiracists is this possession of superior knowledge. if they feel like when they get online, i've done this little study and played this game, because the of delta online games, i know what that is. they use their own character traits in order to turn the against conspiracy -- >> do you think some of these warnings like twitter has on if you're angry, are you sure you want to share? are you sure you want to do this? maybe have read this. that's like putting a twinkie on a plate and saying are you sure you want to eat this? you're right, twitter, let me hang on. >> it's like total instant gratification. >> it's the least possible thing they could do. >> it's virtue signaling. >> exactly. useless is what it is. can you talk about how you discovered the story and decided to pursue it? that's an excellent question. >> yes. so in may 2018 when the first -- well, the families of two sandy hook victims, to make children who were killed, it was leaning posture and veronica, and the parents of jesse lewis also died at sandy hook, when they sued alex jones for defamation in texas in may 2018 i thought this is a very interesting test of the first amendment all around. that's what first got involved in it but that was when i went to talk to the lawyers and then i spoke with lenny, that was when i realize this is a much bigger story, even then these family saga. their awful saga is what is symbolic of what we are all going to live through in our communities if something isn't done. >> okay. what do you sense of the moral equivalency capability social media companies who simply claimed be providing a platform for multitude of voices come anywhere just a benign platform? how is mark zuckerberg no worse than alex jones? is the worst given his clinical to profit from facilitating propaganda, lies and hate? >> that's a good question. >> i'm going to ask that one of him come but go ahead. >> you could argue, i could see why people argue that. i mean, it's one thing to -- >> okay. time for one more. >> go ahead. >> i mean, i think that's a legit argument, that he knows what's going on. it's been too long. he knows what he is created. he can't control it. >> and is one of the richest people in the world. i'm going to ask one more question. let me see which one. let's see, they're also good. >> i know. sorry we didn't get to more. >> that's okay. >> email me. >> these are the same one. i'm going to read them both and it's kind of a tough question. did plunge into a very dark aspect of human delusion and cruelty change of you about our society, leave you more or less hopeless? and how did you keep despair at bay while riding -- >> more or less. >> how did you keep despair at bay while writing this book? >> i always feel a little uncomfortable, a lot of people have asked did that and, in fact, i was just telling lisa story today, a woman i know said hey, that women over there in the salon she wrote this book about sandy hook and the woman was like, god, she must be a downer. [laughing] >> she's not a downer. >> ime midwesterner pollyanna. >> eaten apart inside. seriously. what dinosaurs. no, actually no. and i will say that was the grace of these families. they, i mean, i always say when people say oh, my god that most of them so hard, i just imagine living it, you know? they shared this, as i'll say it again, they shared these mom's because they want all of you to do something here and to me that is like the most inspiring thing. they have hope that things like what care does or this book -- kara -- inspires me to take action so their faith actually. despite all of these efforts to undermine our democracy, july about the deaths of their children, they believe, they still believe. how can we give up? how could i? >> last thing. what can these people do? >> write your congressman. first thing, read the book, as robbie said the other night, we did a book event, robbie parker, sandy hook dad, said i would encourage people, this is hard material but it's not too hard that you can't stand it. and take it on, read it, and then get mad and contact people who can make change, whether it's the social media platforms or its members of congress who are starting to grapple with. >> they are. >> and a bipartisan way. it's one of the few bipartisan efforts that is actually taking root in congress. >> yes, it was before this conflict. so you're saying get angry. >> yeah, yeah. i hope people, people say i don't mind radio host said to me the other day, this but maybe a little mad. i said that is absolutely the goal. >> think about what you're carrying around. i only say you are cheap dates for the internet. they get all the money, all the data and you get a dating service, a map or whatever. understand what they're doing, what they're doing. it's not unlike opiate companies, the sacklers who also joined pieces of shit but it's not unlike that. because it's addictive and the pandemic has shown us it's addictive, it's necessary for your job and your life and a social life, and it's run by the richest people in the history of the world, running the companies that are the most valuable companies, the top ten companies except for saudi aramco which might be putting forward after this crisis, , the top ten companies and world our tech companies come valuable. the top richest people in the world except for the sound is, richest people in the world. just keep that in mind. that's your money. they are eating -- unit, think about it. >> demand effects of. >> this this is a book you ry should read. do not look away. what's happened to be spared any kind, right, the grace that they have had truly inspiring and don't let them down. elizabeth, thank you. >> thank you, guys. [applause] >> thanks for coming. >> so, thank you very much for -- >> thank you. thanks having asked. >> for the book, the conversation, the questions. the housekeeping reminder, i know it is annoying, of putting your chairs against the wall when you're done. a reminder the store does close at eight, such as i don't actually know what time it is -- oh, it is eight. two in on a hopeful note in, i don't know if everybody -- so i'm originally from the south, and talking about the outpouring of support come to mention a a number of times in the book to go against the seedy underbelly of society. in the weeks afterwards, there was -- [inaudible] the town hall had to run shifts of 40-50 volunteers opening mail from all over the world. i don't even know how many thousands of people, pieces of mail were sent where everybody was saying we are with you, we support you, , we're going to do kindness. we're going to do acts of love in her own community. if you don't want to get involved in writing your congressman or you don't know anything about tax law or anything like that, you can be that person of kindness in your community. you can interrupt and sort of conspiracy theorists from impacting your own friends and family. and you can just go out and say i'm going to be nice to somebody today. i don't know who. i don't know where it's going to happen but i'm going to go out and be nice to somebody today and that can be what changes that person's life for the rest of their life. so go ahead and take that, take the book. you will cry just so you know. i wept tears in the first chapter. so just take it, take what it means to you and then go out and be a positive change, so thank you. >> thank you. 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