>> going to get going herein just a minute . ... >> committee will come to order. welcome to the committee on climate crisis this morning. tribal voices, tribal wisdom, strategies for the climate crisis. without objection the chair is authorized for a recess at this time and as a reminder members remotely should be visible on camera throughout the hearing. as with in person hearings members are responsible for controlling their own microphones. members can be muted by staff only to avoid inadvertent background noise and i'd like to remind members via guidance of the attending physician all members physically present in the house of representatives space including this hearing room are required to wear masks unless under recognition by the chair. statements, documents or motions must be submitted to the electronic repository at ccc.repository @mail.house.gov. witnesses experiencing any technicalproblems should inform committee staff immediately .thank you all for joining this hybrid hearing. i willnow recognize myself for an opening statement . if i can locate it. , okay. good morning again. the original storage of the land, indigenous peoples and communities have a great deal to teach us about tackling climate change. while over the centuries tribal nations have carried the painful stars of stolen land, forced removal and genocide, they've alsoendured , survived and d proudly held on to sacred traditions. unique, traditional ecological knowledge and wisdom they inherited from their ancestors. today during native american heritage month we will have an opportunity to listen to distinguished tribal leaders and experts from across indian country on how they are addressing the climate crisis and we will ssdiscuss how congress can partner with tribal nations to create an equitable clean energy future for all communities. tribal nations are on the front lines of the climate crisis. extreme weather events are impacting sacred land, burial sites and cultural tradition. and the long-term risks of climate change including sea level rise, extreme heat and decreased precipitation are threatening the health and livelihood of millions of native americans. as we work to solve the climate crisis, congress has a responsibility to respect tribal sovereignty and to help tribal nations build resilience to climate impact. and to support their leadership in transitioning to a clean energy economy we must partner on innovative solutions drawing on the extensive ancestral knowledge and capabilities across indian country and we must ensure tribal voices have a seat at the table and that the federal government ensures free prior and informed consent as part of tribal consultation informing federal decisions. today we have reason for optimism. this week during a tribal nations summit at the white house resident biden announced a historic initiative to integrate tribal knowledge into federal decision-making and earlier this year president biden cast our former house colleague deb haaland to lead the interior department and she became the first native american cabinet member in history. he's appointed leaders throughout the administration and last month officially declared indigenous people day as a federal holiday. the biden harris administration has taken tangible steps to protect lands sacred to tribes. in a short year the administration has restored protections for bears ear and grand staircase i. protected arctic waters in the bering sea and defended oil leases in the arctic national wildlife refuge. the president also made a point of collaborating with tribal nations of america the beautiful initiative, a nationwide effort to conserve 30 percent of our land and waterways bys,2030 . here in congress we're also making very y important progress. on monday america cheered as president biden signed a bipartisan infrastructure investment and jobs act which will invest $13 billion in tribal communities and indigenous people. this historic infrastructure law invests more than $3 billion for tribal transportation initiatives and over $2 billion for tribal broadband and digital equity. and nearly $1 billion for tribal drinking water and clean water investment. the bipartisan infrastructure law will invest $150 million in plugging, remediating and restoring tribal orphan well sites at and $130 million for tribal community relocation projects but that's not all. this week the excitement is building as we are poised to build on those investments with the bill back better act which includes a major investment to address health r disparities in tribal communities as well as in tribal resilience and adaptation. as you'll hear from today's witnesses these investments are critical right now. and i want to thank them all for being with us today and i look forward to today's discussion and at this time i'm happy to yield five minutes to the ranking member from louisiana. >> good morning madame chair. thank you for joining us today. the united states is leading the world in reducing emissions in an affordable way. benefiting our tribal community, benefiting americans across the entire nation across all our states and our territories. as we move forward, we've got to deploy solutions that are globally deployable. that means that they are both reliable and that they are affordable.and we're going to hear today from the important role that tribes are playing in ensuring that we can aachieve just that. but something that's also really important is how we make decisions in the united states by using our abundance , all of our energy and climate policies must be based on hard assets and resources right here in the united states. the same is true for the tribes. the tribes are kind of like a microcosm of what's possible, looking at the assets, the resources they have whether it's when , solar. whether it's geothermal. maybe wave energy. that could include even things like fossil fuels. it's important that as we move forward we learn from both successes and failures anof others. and we're not your but we're not pursuing at least right now their strategies although i'm hearing more and more about how we need to move in that direction. it is crystal clear to me that that direction is not one that one complies with or recognizes -they have the resources in the united states. number two, it fails to meet the reliability test. number three, it fails to meet the affordability test and as i've mentioned in committee before look no further than the state of california as to how to not pursue climate for clean energy strategies . higher emissions, higher prices, most dependent state on foreign energy. one of the tribes we're going to hear from today is l the southern ute tribe who are on the forefront of the clean energyrevolution . the next wave of energy that they're pursuing will deliver on this promise that american-based resource but also one that is carbon free. and in fact at utility scale. among all of the advancements that they're developing is the utility scale project to utilize their own natural gas resource combined with cutting-edge innovations to generate affordable electricity with zero emissions on demand. this is the technology just announced yesterday that they delivered to the grid for the first time anywhere zero emissions, baseload electricity utilizing natural gas. this is something that is a global game changer. everyone here should be thrilled about and i was shocked i haven't heard any of my colleagues make mention of this. let me say it again. american resources, natural gas. zero emissions, affordable electricity's put onto the grid. if you are to believe the science and just let every critical analysis and this announcement yesterday is a seismic shift and it's achieving meaningful global action to reduce emissions. madame chair i heard you talk a lot about your in your opening about listening to tribes and making sure there's tribal concession and i agree with you that it's really important when we move forward that we do look at the tribes like a microcosm of opportunity. ensure that tribes like the southern ute, that where listening to them and how we can not as many people have failed, not look at the source of energy as the enemy recognize it's actually the emissions and the southern ute tribes project is a perfect example of how we can deliver reliable emissions free energy that can ultimately be exported around the world rather than the strategy that we've seen recently where our administration is asking russia, saudi arabia, iran, venezuela and other countries to basically produce energy. lastly madame chair, i think it's important to note just yesterday the sales that the courts forced the biden administration to pursue and it up providing nearly $200 million of treasury just from the resale, not from the production and that's important because in the hearing this week they told us on shore renewable energy production is going to produce $40 million for the united states whereas offshore in recent years has produced 10 billion. if are going to fund important environmental protection and healthcare, education infrastructure and others we've got to have the resources to do it so i look forward to hearing from our witnesses and i yelled back i want to welcome our witnesses. we will hear from experts on tribal perspective on climate change, transition to clean energy economy andadaptation to climate impact . first the honorable sean sharp is president of the congress of american indians and vice president of the indian nation, a committee of 2500 and 10 ohio washington. she is 23rd president of the nca i, oldest and largest american indian tribal governments organization in the country. the honorable melvin j baker is the chairman of the southern ute indian tribe. he previously served on the ute tribal council, colorado commission of indian affairs and southern indian authority . doctor casey thornbrugh is climate change program manager in the office of environmental resource management for the south and eastern tribes and served as a tribal climate science liaison for the department of interior northeast and southeast climate adaptation science centers. doctor thornbrugh is a citizen of the tribe and pilar thomas is a partner in the energy environment and natural resources practice group of the brady llp. she previously served as deputy director of the office of indian energy policy programs at the usdepartment of energy and as the deputy solicitor of indian affairs at the us department of interior . mrs. thomas served as interim attorney general and chief of staff to chairwoman for many of the pasqua yaqui tribe where she is a member. without objection the witnesses written statements will be made part of the record and with that president sharp, welcome. you are now recognized for five minutesto give a presentation of your testimony . >> good morning chair tester, ranking member graves and members of the house select committee. on behalf of the national congress of american indians i'd like to thank you for holding this hearing. i served as vice president of the and cai. as you point out chairwoman, tribal nations are on the front lines of climate change . every region is deeply impacted by climate change. however, even as tribal nations are faced with a severe climate change impacts our traditional ecological practices have allowed our communities to develop and implement our own innovative approaches in addressing the climate crisis. with this week's white house tribal nations summit and presidential envoy john kerry inviting us to sit on the delegation , this is a critical time for meetings like this to happen so our indigenous voices and solutions are heard. to facilitate the committee's work today, my strategy will highlight how the committees decan support climate change initiatives. additionally i'll highlight some of the discussions that happened at cost 26 with our international indigenous communities and allies. tribal nations have taken care of their land and natural resources since time immemorial. that's with traditional ecological knowledge and practices tribal nations across indian country have been able to respond to climate change by drafting their own selfgoverned approaches to climate resiliency and mitigation efforts . in my written testimony i highlighted three tribal nations working to address climate change impacts . the gila river indian community, blue lake renteria and correct tribe, each of these nations have their own innovative approaches to tackling climate change impacts on their cultural and natural resources . from meeting drop contingency effort to being leaders on a clean energy transition and using traditional ecological practices to combat the damages of wildfires. these tribal nations exemplify our need to have partners in climate mitigation and resiliency efforts. congress plays a critical role not only as a convener but also to support and incentivize intergovernmental initiatives between tribal governments and federal state and local governments as well as other interested stakeholders. this committee and others must address the funding barriers associated with accessing federal climate resiliency funding as well as advocate for expanding financing for climate change funding that directly supports tribal climate resilience and mitigation projects across indian country. i want to first address our community relocation emergency and their associated project cost. these projects aredevastating tribal nations across indian country as they work to combat the climate crisis . my nation knows this all too well. we are located on the southwest corner of the olympic and insula of the state of washington along the pacific ocean. since time immemorial my nation has relied on the waters of the creek river hadan pacific ocean for sustenance and survival . it is the primary population social economic government center of our nation. in 2012 my nation began developing a master plan for relocation of our residents businesses and institutions to a new village at higher land. this master plan involves multiple federal agencies including the online, odd and interiorand has been an estimated price of $150-$200 million . it is only one example of federal tribal nations working to relocate their communities across indian country. we applaud the passage of the infrastructure investment and injobs act which passed a $130 million set aside for tribal communities relocation projects. this is the first federally established community relocation that is specific to indian country is crucial members of this committee consider establishing a federal relocation work for tribal relocation efforts and promote the need for meaningful tribal consultation on the implementation of the infrastructure packages 130 million tribal relocationfund . in order to adequately address the climate crisis we must collectively look to engagewith our international parties . many tribal nations and nci are long-standing international climate change partners. just this past month we attended 26 at the article of the paris agreement article 6 which addresses and nonmarket approaches or change. on november 13 article 6 was adopted with many of our positions included in the final text. i'm happy to discuss this further and i appreciate the time and opportunities this morning and thank you are convening this very important and critically timely section . i'm happy to answer any questions . >> thank you president sharp and it was very apparent at the top 26 in scotland . the growing impact and influence of indigenous peoples from the united states but all across the globe so we are going to talk more about that. next, chairmanbaker you are recognized for five minutes . >> thank you, good morning everyone. good morning ranking member graves and other members of thesubcommittee . i am the elected chairman of the tribal council a body of 70 indian tribes. thank you for the opportunity to protect the environment by utilizing these resources in support of a broader mission and carbon neutrality. all are valuable and affordable energy by portraying it as an environmental impact. to solve problems for our future generations, environmental impacts are the subject of today's hearing on the effect of climate change. the challenges around co2 emissions are real and we must work together globally to implement change that puts aside the impact of f carbon neutrality so co2 levels in the atmosphere don't continue to increase as a result of these impacts. we must be mindful while we solve these challenges it is not to the extent of other aspects of the environment for our tribal members. we support a holistic approach to climate change by leveraging a natural resource where energy is developed to use carbon emissions ontribal lands . within the united states and around the world with many ideas and proposals every day we cannot allow policy changes to conclude such advantages. because they are run not renewable. carbon emissions from one area to the country or even a different part of the world . onour earth has one atmosphere and a holistic approach to carbon emissions programs and project lifecycles, and transformation of development will address climate change and other environmental or cultural impacts. america remains the land of innovation and technology including methods to take climate change in ways that do not result indeterioration of our material standard of living . one example of our tribe's energy resources on the reservation is our methane project. [inaudible] from 2008 to 2018 tribe successfully implemented a project to capture these gases and allow us to save over 150 metric tons of carbon. this was possible because personnel from our tribal industry and academia supported the project. we are now working on the deployment of newer technologies to increase the amount of methane captured . another example of others to provide solutions in our involvement are the coyote-based power project, our project to construct a net powerplant r that utilizes technology to produce 284 megawatts of electricity from natural gas while capturing historic fuel emissions. that power continues to advance the technology a towards commercial funding and in fact this person of the testimony has been recently updated to a physical milestone for the test facility in texas has successfully delivered electricity across the grade. it will be the first of its kind and can provide carbon technology support as a valuable grid and more renewables are added but congress has not supported the tax credit and makes up 10 to 15 percent of us supply for the electrical grid. we encourage congress to consider increasing the value with legislation to implement carbon capture and new technologies that can be part of the future solution for a carbon neutralenvironment . [inaudible] >> this includes development of one of the first security skills and recovery of methane and other alternative projects such asbiofuel . a project that continues our long legacy of leadership and stewardship and we share the same vision to develop solutions for the energy transition. thank you for the time today to clarify and for your interest. at this point we would be happy to answer any questions you may have. so thank you. >> thank you chairman baker and next we go to doctor thornbrugh, you are .ecognized for five minutes >> good morning chair caster and committee members. thank you for the opportunity to testify today. my name is casey thornbrugh. i live on cape town in massachusetts on the original homeland for those who call themselves wampanoag. it's important to note that we refer to ourselves as people of the dawn. we are a nonprofit tribal organization serving 23 tribal nations from the northeastern woodlands to the everglades and across the gulf of mexico. climate change will have lasting impact on tribal land , waters and communities. as a first nations of this content continent tribal nations have adopted changes in the climate that have occurred over millennia hebut tribal nations face a rapidly changing climate while working to protect the health and well-being of our committee only a fraction of our original homeland. since the start of the 20th century the average annual temperature in the us as increased between 1.3 and 1.8 degrees fahrenheit northeastern areas obhave observed the increase of three degrees. while these may be subtle they are reflected in changes in the ecosystem and weather patterns . over the past hundred years mobile sea levels have risen 73 inches and this is also seen on the atlantic coast in la our region with sinking land and coastal areas, some areas in the gulf have seen a rise of 1 to 3 feet. future projections indicate e that sea levels will rise another one to four feet with an 8 to 11 foot rise possible 2100. my background shows a saltmarsh which is one of the few places our tribal nation can access shellfish and practice our culture once the sealevel rise and can survive . specific changes in our region include the coast of maine. as one of the fastest-growing bodies ofwater in the world . one marine species is staying in the summer and it's uncertain if the gulf of maine will remain a suitable habitat for future generations and fortribal nations it not just about species . they are traditional food and also the namesake of some of our tribal nations and our networks. in the southeast hurricanes impacted infrastructure of the tribal nations. responses to public safety or having to prepare for such events . tribal nations have experienced more extreme weather events in areas of the seasons for which they have been less frequent. tribal nations are working to become more resilient to the impacts of climate change. currently there are over 60 climate change adaptation plans with more to come. however there are barriers to those plans such as competitive funding for climate resilience projects and also the 2009 supreme court decision challenges our ability to have plans placed into trust even when those are on homeland territories. those nations may face difficulties and adaptation and reacquiring land. with regard to relocation, it's sensitive for tribal nations in our experiences with forced relocation and removal from our homelands. it's essential that it will require the removal of communities and infrastructures to some places but tribal nations must be afforded the dignity to move to preserve the well-being of our nation and as well as our right to our ancestral places which mustbe maintained even if these places become submerged . you support the initiations new initiative elevating federal policy decisions. tribal nations have been sustainably in our ancestral homeland forcountless generations relied on our traditional ecological knowledge . this would lead to practical solutions improving forest management, wildlife corridors and dealing with sealevel rise.te earlier tdk must be respected and protected as tribal proprietary knowledge. it is important because tribal nations and cultures carry the responsibility of its application. in conclusion it is important for the united states to meet its obligations to tribal nations to ensure successful long-term funding for climate change adaptation and also critical is removing ugthe barriers that tribal nations face while holding our right to free and informed consent. ithank you all for your time and for your opportunity to testify today . >> ntnext up, miss thomas you arerecognized for five minutes .welcome. >> good morning madame chair and ranking member graves and honorable membersof the committee . thank you for the opportunity to provide my views on indian country substantial opportunities to contribute to this nations efforts to reduce carbon, to better prepare and adapt to the now two real impact of climate change on tribal communities. certainly coming on the heels of the now enacted infrastructure investment and jobs act, this hearing is timely and important to identify the critical role the federal government can play and should play in supporting indian tribes, alaskan native villages and other indigenous communities and the strategies and actions necessary to protect these vulnerable communities from the worst of these impacts . let me start with the good news. according to a recent analysis by the national renewable energy laboratory in 2018, indian country has over six percent of the total technical and economically feasible renewable energy resources in the united states. and that's compared to having about two percent ofthe land mass . so clearly an outsized amount of resources that tribes have with respect to solar, wind, biomass, geothermal and hydroelectric. despite having almost 21,000 terawatt hours of potential generation capacity which is more than enough power to power the whole united states multiple times over, there are only two commercially, commercial scale renewal projects operating on indian land. so indian countries clean energy resources can and should fact must be brought to bear on us efforts to reduce its carbon emissions if the nation is going to succeed atmeeting its commitments to future generations and the world in mitigating climate change . furthermore, these resources can be brought to bear on tribes and alaska native villages efforts to protect themselves from climate change through the use of these same resources and distributed energy projects. whether that rooftop solar, community solar, micro grid and as a way to enforce and reinforce energy sufficiency, energy sovereignty but almost more importantly from the climate change perspective, energyresiliency and reliability . these goals can only be accomplished through mass deployment of these types of technology. with the plummeting costs especially around solar and storage, federal support such as additional technical and financial assistance can be more impactful and more meaningful. but while this federal support is necessary, it's not sufficient. soleveraging these kind of resources can still be very expensive. distributed energy projects of course while again we are reducing cost, the cost of storage is still relatively high. the cost of micro grid is still relatively high . even blue lake renteria which president sharp referenced in your testimony, the only tribe with two actual working micro grid facilities and use for energy resiliency were still multimillion dollar projects. so the challenge for tribes and the federal government is how can we take advantage of other financingopportunities , llpublic-private partnerships to see more mass deployment of these efforts, of these types of tstechnologies from an energy reliability standpoint ? how do we focus on what would be critical infrastructure especially schools, hospitals. we saw how important it was to have robust public health systems in the last year and a half with covid. how important it was to have robust wastewater and other types of public health infrastructure which of course cannot operate without energy. how do we protect government tribal enterprises and fisheries and farms, everything that does in fact still require power and is most vulnerable with respect to climate. a couple of key challenges that we still have and still remain from a humidity scale perspective, a distributed energy perspective is the exercise of tribal sovereignty over that development . so congress and the federal government can really assist tribes with promoting more interaction at the state level, promoting more tribal sovereign authorities over the exercise of energy development and providing more technical and financial resources. so with that again i thank you for your time and look forward to answering any questions you may have . >> thank you very much and thanks to all the witnesses for their very insightful testimony and thank you for getting up early for our witnesses on the west coast especially. i'll recognize myself for five minutes to kick off the questioning. all the witnesses have highlighted the indoor miss opportunities that a clean renewable energy enbrings to tribal land and tribes and to all of us across this country. what i've heard from you is that clean and renewable energy will create jobs. it will lower cost. it will reduce pollution and provide health benefitsin areas of the country that really needed . but president sharp, you're a leader in this. what do we need to do in tribal consultation to really bring the opportunities to indigenous people across this country? >> i really appreciate it not only the question but your remarks in your opening statement but the issue of free prior and informed consent, is the ability for nations to have a decisive stay . that's something that i advocate in advance as a policy in which nobody has to give that to us . we're not seeking effort from state agencies and local agencies. the idea that a tribal nation should have a decisive say over our land, territory and resources is an international standard that transcends national borders and for tribal nations to be able to seize the opportunities that pilar thomas mentioned. when you look at the opportunity we have to unlock with an indian country, there's no question tribal nations in assisting and partnering with the united states to unleash the energy potential, we should have a decisive say so it is critically important as we build out our climate strategies that tribal nations are able ntto exercise the full spectrumof government governmental powers and decision-making . >> miss thomas, you make a very compelling point about clean energy elements being a key part of adaptation and resilience and economic opportunity for tribal nations. and i see investments in committee solar and micro grids building climate resilience across the country but also providing those in norma's as you called outsized economic opportunities. could you give us a few examples or two of clean energy projects in tribal communities and the broader impact they are having? >> ctso again, the blue lake renteria which i think is representative hoffman's district. there are thankfully over the last few years or so, there's been a real shift in federal financing for these mueller community scale distributed energy projects because they provide lots of different benefits to tribes. one, first and foremost jobs. these are the kind you can't outsource and you can't automate so they provide comps or tribal members. they provide added economic benefit of reducingenergy costs . i offset that power cost, i don't pay the utility. i keep those funds in the community and reinvest them in the tribal community . if it's operated by a tribal utility i'm creating more jobs for that tribal utility and you see this around the hole. there's been a broad geographic effort from washington state with the spokane tribe down to the seminole tribe in florida and everywhere in between, a very robust diversification of renewable energy projects at the smaller scale level and that's because everybodycan do smaller scale renewable energy projects . so that's been critical. we see lots of new tribes come out with energy economy opportunities for job training. and putting tribal members to work in installing solar panels and doing energy efficiency. you got icto operate and maintain those systems. these are sustainable jobs. these are just excited people ibuilding a big solar project and then as i say three guys and a bottle of windex taking care of it later. >> chairman baker highlighted the southern ute has developed a solar based that's decreased their dependence onfossil fuel so why did you make the decision to diversify your energy resources ? and chairman, i have run out of time. , we will be sure to come back to you. we will give you time to think about your answer y. and i'll have to go to ranking member graves forfive minutes . >> thank you. and chairman baker i think you are on you as well. thanks again to all of you for participating today. i really appreciate your testimony. chairman baker, you all have pursued as the chair just noted both solar as well as conventional fuel projects that all result in net zero emissions. can you talk a little bit about the importance of just innovation and innovative technologies in helping the tribe achieve your kind of financial help and sustainability for your tribe? >> the claim power project has the potential ... [inaudible] by providing clean affordable power to the grid in a part of the country where plants are continuing to be the heart of the coming years. the project will be located on the southern ute reservation so the project will be getting contracting efforts for indian owned businesses and hiring native americans to supportthis project . during the peak of construction it is anticipated the project will create 1000 jobs. both construction and during the operational period it is anticipated the period project with create jobs for the community along with future indirect job creation so we're looking forward to how we can implement job opportunities for emergency. >> so it's job opportunity and it's financial assistance to the tribe as well. there was an article from the associated press in june that noted that there was a boom in native american oil activity and how that potentially complicates what the biden administration is doing. if the administration comes in and tries to stop tribes from producing conventional fuels and as we talked about with net zero emissions what does that do to the southern ute? >> you are on mute. >> if the project produces fossil fuels, [inaudible] we believe all this development has a type of environmental impact and when we invalidate the project we look at the social impacts to the life cycle of the project to induce emissions, climate change and waste generation etc. the clean power project utilizes natural gas which we see as playing a big role in energy transition that is fairly available in the united states at a lower carbon footprint than other fossil fuels and when coupled with innovative technologies the power cycle can eliminate those needs associated with thcombustion and after 90 percent of the fuel generated by the project. the project is truly anticipated to supply affordable power to the grid while providing solutions to climate change ... [inaudible] more than 80 percent of the energy from the world is carbon capture ... >> it sounds like you have your own process that you review from beginning to end and look to determine holistically if this is the right method for the tribe and that's a great process and i think something that doesn't discriminate against energy technologies . president trump, i'm curious of a couple of things. one, there were quotes from you earlier where you basically said you were going to g take big oil down. hearing from chairman baker about their ability to use conventional fuels in a way that's zero emissions i'm io curious as to how those two things align. >> i really appreciate that question because in the context i'm very passionate about taking big oil down because when you look at the scale of the global crisis that we're all facing, the public treasury is having to pay for it and every single day big oil is denigrating our environment with no consequences. there's no carbon fee that's my intent that big oil should be held accountable for devastating our natural world and putting a price on the public treasury. with regards to any tribal ar nation's ability and desire to build their own fuel sources and energy, we fully support that. and we need to reconcile those two things we are in a period transition. we need to transition away from fossil fuels to renewable energy and there is a space in our window of opportunity where we support any tribal nation that desires to unlock the energy potential. >> .. the reality is the united states has reduced the global command is increased by ten ten times, and so is not the united states. thyield back. >> thank you to the chair and ranking member and to our witnesses. i wantse to note that the titlef the series includes tribal voices, tribal wisdom. i know as policymakers would benefit greatly when we listen to tribal poses and we heed the tribal wisdom which are witnesses brought to the searing today. many of the witnesses spoken either in their oral or written testimony about the expertise of tribal nations and natural resource management and the value of indigenous traditional ecological knowledge. on november 15 the office of science and technology policy and the white house council on environmental quality relates a memo detailing the administration's commitment to elevating indigenous traditional ecological knowledge in federal policy processes. that includes a working group. this workgroup will promote mutually beneficial partnership between the federal government and tribal communities on indigenous traditional ecological knowledge i want to ask dr. thornbrugh, what would you like to see this working group consider as it prepares the guidance document for release next year? what recommendations to expect the guides will ultimately offer? >> thank you, representative bonhomie cheap. the main thing is to have clear communication with tribal nations to respect the proprietary information. we are really excited that it brought it to the forefront but as processes go ongoing communications is so important and what also highlight president sharp in terms of the continued deployment of ethics, that this is knowledge that comes from our histories, from very muchr part of who we are.s so it's important to have the utmost respect but also our consent and how it is applied. i would just say in conclusion, just continuing that respect and regular communication. that way if issues or concerns come up, they come up sooner rather than later. >> thank you. that's very helpful. president sharp, welcome. it's nice as you again. i will will always remember the beautiful traditional invocation your son provided when you hear at the capital previously. i want to thank you for the important contributions of the national congress of american indians and what those contributions meant to this committees climate action plan. tribal feedback on the climate action plan as well as comments in your testimony reflect the challenges that tribal nations and intergovernmental tribal groups face in accessing federal programs and funding. you mentioned that in your testimony again today. tribal entities like the columbia river intertribal fish commission had told me about some of those challenges they've had in accessing federal grants and programs. president sharp, how we make sure tribal nations and entities have equitable access to federal energy and climate programs, and how does maintaining the status quo or how would maintaining the status quo undermined our collective response to the climate crisis? . uh, before i bn to answer the two questions i i do wanna touch back on the previous question, which i answered when you like the scale of the climate crisis facing this country in this world, relying almost entirely on the public treasury appropriations through state capitals, state legislatures and congress is simply not enough. we do have to hold big oil accountable and those who are directly responsible but of a limited public treasury. it's important that tribal nations have a steady and a secure source of multi year funding. it's very difficult to plan climate resiliency projects are multi year, if not multigenerational. so it's critically important that we do have a reliable and steady source of revenues. and as congress works to hold those who are accountable responsible. and i would also suggest, uh, in a lot of conversations. there's a discussion of public private partnerships to fund climate related impacts. so anything congress can do to incentivize public private partnerships to hold big oil accountable to pay their fair share and price for centuries of devastation and creating a framework for us to be able to access those directly from congressional appropriations would be incredibly helpful. >> thank you. and what would be? how would it undermine the collective response if if there if you did not have access to that that funding >> it would undermine the response in that tribal nations are already left vulnerable with little to no resources, as is evidenced in the u. n. uh, commission on human rights that was civil commission on human rights was delivered to congress. we are chronically underfunded, and so without the added support of of addressing climate change, you take that away. and the impacts of covid 19 has revealed just how critically vulnerable tribal nations are. so we would see our lands, our resources, our territories, even our traditional foods and plants disappear. and they're already disappearing. so it would prove to be devastating for indian country. >> thank you. and i'm over time, but i just want to notice i yield back. i hope you stayed safe during the atmospheric river events in the pacific northwest. we had some serious flooding recently. take care. >> thank you. >> next up, rhett palmer. you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you. the chairman, um and i think the witnesses for being here chairman baker, i'm hopeful, uh, that one thing we can learn from the tribes is that climate has a history. um, i keep bringing this up. i keep hearing misappropriation of historical data and and in some cases, scientific data and colleagues on the committee complaint. -- complain that since i've been on it that fossil fuels are causing all the droughts and that the world faces. and my question is, if the use of fossil fuels is causing current routes, what caused the droughts that took place in the southwestern united states in the late in the mid 13th century that resulted in the disappearance of tribes like the anastasis? do you have any idea? believe you're muted? show less text -- >> yes. um, apparently, i don't have any ideas, but we see that all around us in our south coast region where, you know, again, we're close to, like mesa verde ruins, and the history tells us you know, how they live, how they survive. and, you know, we see certain we hear stories of the water levels that were higher back in the day, there was plenty of water, and today, this whole region is drying up in our area. we're in a drought high drought, uh, for the year our lakes in the area are really, really drying up. so with, like, anything else, i guess just like the past, our past ancestors, you have to adapt and figure out a way to survive. whatever it is that all means at all costs. and, you know, right now that is a big issue for us again. the water to drought. we're we're going to look like in five years. so we're always our teams are always looking for answers. >> well, actually, um, professor scott stein, who spent decades studying tree stumps in parts of the sierra nevada, found that past century has been among the wettest in the last 7000 years. he also notes that the tree ring data shows that california had a 240 year drought that started in 850 ad. over 1000 years before fossil fuels power like coal plants and oil were used. and my point is, that includes mississippi culture. uh, where i grew up. i live near the mountains near, uh, hamilton's alabama. there's mounds south tuscaloosa, near florence, alabama. there was a thriving culture mississippian culture that disappeared because of a major drought that occurred around 1350. the point that i am trying to make is we spend all this time attacking big oil, and i think it's because people have self interest involved and the science doesn't support lot of what is being said. but the historical record, the geologic record shows that the climate changes all the time for a number of reasons in the indigenous peoples of america. and i have native american background, um, as well that i'm very proud of didn't have the technological ability to develop the natural resources to mitigate and adapt to the climate change. they had to migrate. and that's what happened with the anastasia is i think they assimilated eventually into the navajo tribe. uh, good. we keep focusing on on on these things that even some of the top scientists that this committee is brought in have admitted that if we completely eliminated all co2 emissions, it would not stop climate change. we've imposed restrictions on native americans, particularly on the reservations, as a few years ago that the energy information administration put out data that showed that 14% of the native americans on reservations had no access to elect electricity. the chairman baker, do you think it's right for the federal government to deprive the tribes the right to utilize the natural resources exist on their on on their tribal lands to develop power plant if they want to a hydro electric plant, natural gas or even oil. uh, because they're they're literally reservations where people are suffering from energy, poverty and living in poverty. because you haven't been able to do that. >> no, i don't think it's right at all. you know, it's very, um, you know, it's just not fair for all native countries all around all indian country. but again, you know, for us, we're looking at self determination. as far as what can we do? how do we move forward? you know, we never stop. we have great teams in place. we collaborate with others. we do a lot of research as we move forward, no matter what the issue is. and not only when we talk about you know, the energy and all that our child, we also diversifying many other aspects of real estate. just many things out there in this world that we're always thinking. we're always moving. we can't focus on just one. but when we are focused on one like this clean energy, you know, we know co two is a greenhouse gas. you know, these types of things we're never going to start moving forward and sharing that experience with other tribes. when we talk about meeting and come together when you have a try because i want to meet with us and come and ask us, how did you do it? and we're willing more than willing to share that story with anyone who wants to come and meet with our team. >> i congratulate you on your commitment to your people. >> next up, representative escobar, you're recognized for five minutes. >> >> thank you madam chair, i am so proud that we have the oldest tribal community the state of texas in el paso, and the tribal council is the oldest government in the state as well. >> -- i got to meet with the governor of the tribe and he shared a concern about the flexibility tied with the tribe. so we can better understand what we can do to provide the flexibility necessary for the resources, especially as they relate to addressing the climate crisis and being able to fully d utilize them to avert disaster. i would like to explore what some of those impediments and roadblocks have been for some of our panelist. president sharp, in your testimony you had mentioned the need for the federal government to provide funds directly to tribes and through multi-your grant. could you share with the committee how these changes would accelerate projects on the ground, and if possible, is there an example you can think of that you can share with us? >e question because the issues you raised expect -- affect every tribal nation on the front lines of dealing with i'm a change. in the 50's and 60's, we had millions of salmon return to the rivers out my window here. millions. and that was from when time again. the year i got elected in 2006, we only had a few thousand return and our scientists have been doing a tremendous amount of work mitigating those impacts , but we are at a place where we don't have the resources to really understand the scope of the problem. and with all tribal nations, having a direct source of funding would provide us with the capacity to begin to do some of the identifying of the problem. then, based on identifying the science and having the capacity to do that, they would build out adaptation and mitigation strategy. we don't even have the ability to wrap our minds around all of the things happening. we would be able to identify the challenges our community is facing, identify the goals and objectives related to climate resilience and make a point to our partners, whether state or the private sector, and tell me -- until we have the resources to understand the scope of our challenges, we are putting out fires. >> thank you. what are some of the other roadblocks that make it difficult for tribes to access federal funds for clean energy and resilience in particular, and how would you recommend we fix them? >> being a former fed and having worked on programs at the department of energy, the primary challenge around accessing federal support is the multiple silos that exist. there is a great money, by our last count there are about 75 federal programs across nine agencies that could be leveraged for energy development, energy efficiency, weatherization, or the assistance program or the economic administration of commerce program. aligning federal programs, aligning them in such a way that gives tribes the flexibility and the -- not just the resources but the flexibility and leveraging those resources. that is a funding -- a function of mostly statute but also regulation and other guidance the federal agencies have implanted. a good starting point would be, much as the president just announced a task force around consultation, additional taskforces of how to the program more accessible to tribes and tribal communities as they are trying to piece together federal funds that help do. as i mentioned the project can be a $20 million project. so i could get that money from six or seven different agencies, but it is a challenging and daunting process to do that. >> thank you, i yield back. >> thank you, you are recognized for five minutes. >> good morning madam chair and thank you. welcome to our witnesses. your member he peaked his -- peaked my interest with his discussion of a wright brothers breakthrough on carbon cap -- carbon capture storage, putting electricity on the grid in a net zero way. as i was trying to follow the testimony, i was also digging into whatever information i could find about this and my mind remains open to any technology that can help us achieve zero emissions and meet our goals. but i'm not sure this is the wright brothers moment from what i can gather about this pilot project in texas. i want to ask you more about your larger project, chairman, using the same technology. curious about it. from what i can gather, this at best is a more efficient way of creating a cycle that burns natural gas and captures the co2, but we have not yet geared out what to do with that co2 and -- figured out what to do with that co2 and is going to the same thing, enhanced oil recovery. you are taking liberties with the term zero when you're talking about burning natural gas and using the co2. -- i remain skeptical. let us continue the conversation. a problem i have with presenting this as a breakthrough is that right now, adding -- representing this as a breakthrough is that right now adding new renewables to generate electricity is cheaper. -- >> thank you for the question. on the co2 grounds, we don't develop oil on the reservation. we do a lot of outside the reservation. the energy department, we are all over the place, not just on the reservation and the oil, we don't do that on the reservation. >> have you identified a place and demonstrated that you can safely store it over the long term without linkage and other problems? -- leakage and other problems? or are you just going to have someone else take care of that? >> ok. right now, that is confidential information. we are still working on it. once we have developed that and come up with a plan, because again on day one we are always looking to protect our homeland, within our area and all of that, but we don't have information that her team is working on. it is confidential. we are not yet at the finish line. we are still trying to develop it and doing things in the right ways, not just for the reservation but for the whole earth. >> but you're not going to just pipe it off somewhere to be used for recovery? >> no. again, we don't have that, we are looking at opportunities of what is the right way, what is the best way. because it is possible to do that if we find the right mechanism. but we are still working on all of these issues. because we don't want to present something without looking into the facts. >> i appreciate your leadership in these issues and what you're trying to do for your tribe. as with so many other instances, there are great promises of carbon capture storage, we ask the hard questions, if it is not quite ready for prime time. meanwhile, renewables are cheaper than natural gas. with that i yield back. >> next. >> thank you madame chairwoman. your answer can be we can do whatever we want because of tribal sovereignty. let's debunk a couple of things. renewables are not cheaper than natural gas. that is nonsense. there are only cheaper because they get massive subsidies to make them cheaper. there is not a manufacturer of solar panels, wind turbines or generators that i've talked to that say they can do this in an open and free market. but oil and gas get subsidies to, that's what they say -- lies. there is no direct tax credit or subsidy to oil and gas. there is another lie that needs to be debunked. carbon capture technology is not ready for market, lies. illinois is starting a project, chairman baker sucking up this project here in colorado. we just hooked it up to the energy grid. profitable. the only thing they use is a tax credit. these are profitable, they work and in some cases there carbon negative because the technology exists. -- >> a point of order. he is welcome to agree with me -- disagree with me, but i would ask that his words be taken down for accusing me of lying. >> your hurt feelings are noted. if i may continue. >> would you like to yield to mr. huffman? >> no i will not. chairman baker, do you think that a person who can be in the business of natural gas --? >> yes. no matter where we are, we will have our land come first and how it affects our neighbors. >> and tribal lands are not exempt from the natural gas tax in the reconciliation bill. any member of your facility that produces, transmits, processes or touches natural gas is subject to a tax by the epa. how will this harm members of the tribe? >> i'm not sure exactly, because we have so many other things that we work on, not just oil and gas. and what of it -- it is a great question. i'm not an expert on these technologies, but -- the government should not pass our resources. >> i agree. back to the general discussion of natural gas, the facts are that the fracking industry and the technology associated with that, it is almost 100% responsible for our reduction in emissions in this country back to 1982 levels. there is no disputing that. if you were to replace coal pyre -- power plants across the world with natural gas, he would have more reduction in emissions than any other solution we're talking about. i will just apologize for that. but what you are saying is deeply untrue and misleading. frankly, probably damaging to our mutual goals of reducing emissions in this country and around the world. that is the truth. the facts back this up. the facts back up that these technologies, carbon capture technologies, are ready for market. it is happening before our eyes. we can refuse to acknowledge it, we can cover our ears and cover our eyes and pretend we don't see it and pretend that renewables are cheaper and more effective and reliable, we can pretend all that. we can write a fiction novel about it, but none of it will be true. it will never be true. to over subsidize those technologies, renewable technologies to -- it is insanity. especially at a moment around the world where people are having trouble keeping the lights on. that is a bad place to be in. i yield back. >> thank you. the national carbon capture center is in my district and i would be happy to host the committee if they want to visit that. we are sequestering carbon and concrete blocks and other materials, there is no leaking or leeching. it might be good for the committee to have an expanded view of what is actually happening in regard to the technology. i yield back. >> thank you. we all know there is a role for carbon capture and storage. when it comes to industrial processes like steel. but as mr. huffman makes a strong point, it is still unproven what it comes to oil and gas. next we will go up to the next rep. bo, he is going to go first. we recognize him for five minutes. >> you for this hearing and to our witnesses for joining. this includes native american tribes and indigenous people in my district. like other historically underrepresented people, indigenous people have been this proportional he impacted by climate change. according to experts, this is attributable to the disposition and forced migration to less economically productive lands of natives. as i have said, access to clean air, clean water and a healthy environment should not be a luxury. and as we have seen, we need to make sure that as we go forward, we address the climate quite -- climate crisis to move toward a clean energy future. the committee has made recommendations as to how to assure this is the case. president biden is committed to doing so as well as through the justice initiative, the goal of delivering 40% of overall benefits of federal investments to disadvantage communities, including tribal communities. i look forward to working with my colleagues and with the administration to ensure that we follow through on this promise and that our tribal nations have the resources and capacity to address -- address climate and take a vantage of opportunities. pardon me. this question is for all three witnesses. i would ask that you take it into order, that you answer in the order you gave your testimony. in drafting the environment of justice act, it was critical to get feedback from a variety of stakeholders including tribal and indigenous leaders. as policies are created and grants are distributed in the infrastructure package, can you clarify how you feel the federal government can ensure meaningful stakeholder engagement, including the types of engagement that will be most helpful? >> i will go first. i appreciate not only the question but the background. it is important for everybody to understand and recognize the place of not only indigenous peoples communities of color that are disproportionately impacted. i would suggest something that could be helpful, to formalize the engagement of tribal nations on climate policy. as others mentioned, we have two deal with various silos within the federal government, but to consolidate, they could provide a national climate strategy that is informed by tribal nations on every level, it would be helpful. as representing 574 tribal nations, we are prepared and ready, we just need to have points of opportunity to bring our traditional knowledge and our innovation in the things that we are doing into this country. we welcome any opportunity and i thank you for that question. >> less than two minutes, please continue. mr. thomas? would you answer? >> i think so. there are lots of ways, lots of methods for engagement. the national tribal organizations such as ncai, regional organizations where casey works and those all over the country, the biggest challenge as well though is with direct tribal communities. as much as there is a governor -- as much as there is a government to government processed the federal government has tripled, sometimes the voices of individual tribal members in tribal communities have to be brought to the table as well. there is a multilevel challenge that the federal government has, but as with anything, the big thing is how do you eat an elephant? one bite at a time. you've got to get started. we've got to do some things differently and hopefully some of the models that the administered and is putting together will be a good way to do that. we've got to find natural allies and partners in the same boat and try and create partnerships across communities of color, organizations and levels of government. and encouraging tribes, for example, to engage with cities and counties. as well as with state government. that is another way to come out this -- come at this. >> think you for those answers. dr. and german, i'm not going to try and get you to answer in less than 20 seconds, but i would ask that you send an answer to that question if you would, it's a sincere question and we have a lot of work to do to make sure we have the right communication between tribal and indigenous peoples but all those who are disadvantaged by the climate crisis. i yield back. >> thank you, we will go back --, you are recognized for five minutes. >> thanks so much. i want to start by apologizing. it breaks my heart that my colleagues on the other side of the aisle have gone back to 1990, but the climate is always changing, fossil fuel is not subsidized, people who suggest that have special interest. we had $100 billion damage this year, people who lost their homes from fires and floods and we are going to talk about tree ring data? international monetary funds say the world subsidizes the fossil fuel industry by $6 trillion a year, six and the $50 billion in the u.s. and we are going to call those lies? show some respect for the science and the planet we all call home. my goodness. i want to try to end on an optimistic note, but i want to start with a question for you. it is a hard question to grapple with and i'm hoping you've got more wisdom than me. for not all of the tribes but a lot of them, the lands they live on our lands they were forcibly relocated to. we moved them off productive land to more marginal land and a lot of that land is now mostly at risk of climate change. areas that are harder to obtain water, more risk of doubt -- drought, i see you nodding. my question is, the number one are the programs that we have available in this country for adaptation sufficient for those communities and can they get access to them, and number two, to the extent that they -- those folks are living in areas where the best thing to do is to help folks relocate to a more productive area, how can we be most culturally sensitive for communities that have been told but the federal government to move before and may be skeptical, and we would welcome your thoughts on both of those questions. with hope that i can have time for dr. thomas. >> thank you. to your first question, adaptation funding, we need additional resources. not only adapt with new and emerging signs and things that are available, but centuries of knowledge that we have with respect to adaptation and cultivating and developing that with our elders is quickly important. to your second question, yes, adjustments in a culturally sensitive way, one way to do that is to acknowledge that tribal nations should have a decisive say through prior and can -- informed consent on all federal actions with the united states or any other government can take action without our consent, it puts us in a imperiled position. those of the suggestions i would offer. >> thank you. moving to dr. thomas, i want to end on a more uplifting note, we talk about the pain of climate change and sometimes too little about the economic gain, notwithstanding what is -- what my colleagues suggest. if you invest in things that have no marginal operating costs, you make a lot of money, it is also. there are reasons the private sector likes this. in your capacity as a deputy director of the doe office of indian energy policy, i wonder if you could comment on how these programs to make sure we are investing dollars in the areas where we have the maximum opportunity for renewable resources, where wind and solar are, you talked about that in your opening testimony. the program ways we get money into indian country, are they sufficient to make sure those moneys afloat to the optimal places, notwithstanding where the land is and who lives there, or other things we can do to better accelerate this to a cheaper and cleaner future? >> the biggest challenge is the silos within the agencies themselves and across agencies and being able to leverage as much support as possible, whether it is technical assistance or financial assistance. between rural development, the department of energy's program, the department of interior's program, pacing these together can be a huge challenge. everybody has a different calendar, a different set of criteria for what kind of project works. commercial scale projects, the two martial scale projects did not use any federal money from a grant standpoint. used tax credits, but those projects are so big that the small amount of federal money does not help with the commercial scale. financial assistance, yes, and of these a smaller scale projects where tribes can use wind and solar for themselves, that is where the federal support becomes more impactful. and you see less of the private sector, at least right now, the interested in supporting a 20 kilowatt solar project. so the federal support becomes more important there. the big opportunity for the administration i think as with any administration is how to we better coordinate amongst ourselves? and part of that should start with asking the tribes who are trying to develop projects. what do you need from us, and what can we do from a government perspective to support that effort? >> i'm out of time, i appreciate you. >> thank you. as we close at the hearing, i would like to take -- provide witnesses with one minute each to give us some closing advice and wisdom, let us go in reverse order and start with ms. thomas. one minute for closing words. >> i want to try and end, usually when i talk about this, with two key concepts. one, tribal sovereign authority. tribes are not going to be able to accomplish most of what they need to do from a clean energy and climate resiliency standpoint if they do not have the federal government support for them, their own sovereign authorities for what makes sense for the tribal community. secondly, i do think the federal government could be more ambitious around supporting mastiff limit of whatever technology works for the tribe around climate resiliency. that's going to require putting our shoulder to the grindstone to really figure out what is it we can do. we can plan, obsessed and president sharp is right, we need more money. but in the end we've got to do something to protect and that will require more -- federal cooperation in that regard. >> first and foremost, it is important for tribal nations to be leaders and to guide traditional ecological knowledge initiatives. i also wanted to highlight direct funding for tribal nations for climate change adaptation and resilience. competitive funding with the burden on the -- puts the burden on tribal nations and does not record days the obligation. a support for overly -- early consultation with tribal nations, we need to look at initiatives and understand how they impact our nations and communities in that way. so early consultation. i want to mention a couple of brief things on the climate change side. we recognize that the climate has changed throughout geologic time, in the northeast it took 10,000 years for the glacier ice to reseed, we have seen those changes within left times. thank you. >> mr. baker. >> thank you and i want to thank everyone for participating in this discussion. i believe everyone on this call contributed to this. we are not here to debate climate change, we are here to work together with different views, open minds and what solutions we like as we move forward and we advocate for sovereignty and nation to nation around the world to solve the problems we have mentioned. people address them in their homelands and natives who live in their reservations, we know we have to do we can. would like to invite anyone who would like to tour what we are working on in our reservation. thank you for allowing me to speak today. >> thank you and president sharp. >> my one minute, i would like to just encourage every member of the committee to continue to advance the leaders of this country with bold, courageous and decisive climate action. we are running out of time and i would like to leave you with this thought, there's no way we will be able to negotiate, legislate or buy out of the climate crisis. we have to return to our traditional lifeways that the indigenous peoples of this continent have exercised for millennia. that is my take away from cop 26. when i worked with indigenous people from all of the world, it is clear we do manage 80% of the worlds biodiversity and its only with us at the table to bring that knowledge to restore balance to the planet. we can't take selective science to advance political objectives that benefit will to national corporations who seem to suggest that the help in future of our planet and humanity is reduced to nothing more than the cost of doing business. we have to be bold, courageous, and speak honest truth as we navigate through this. thank you. >> thank you to our witnesses for your tribal wisdom and advice. we certainly need it. i will go to represent it of graves for unanimous consent request. >> thank you madam chair. the statement from the navajo nation regarding the bided magicians actions on chaco canyon should be included in the record. second, an article regarding the net power facility with natural gas generated literacy to the grid, and lastly the associated group that is now working for john kerry and administration with the analysis of carbon capture -- and most of these successful projects over decades. >> thank you. as i close out the hearing, i want to say i know that members are strong advocates for their committees back home and their policy positions. but numbers like represent of crenshaw, his or marks today, really crossed the line when he spoke in terms of lies. that violates our rules of decorum in the house and it was appropriate for him to apologize to representative huffman and i'm glad he did that, especially when it comes to and i will offer this as a unanimous consent request, his assertion that there are no oil and gas -- the oil and gas does not receive subsidies from the u.s. government. without injection -- objection i will enter a report from the international monetary fund entitled still not getting energy prices rate, a global and -- finding that fossil fuel subsidies were up in 2020. in 2021, resolutions from the national congress of american indians titled amending and updating and cai -- and cai -- ncai resolution supporting tribal disaster resilience and climate change principles, at an october 2021 resolution from the national congress of american indians titled additional tribal disaster resilience and climate change common principles. without objection all members will have ten business days within which to submit additional written questions for thee witnesses. i asked our witnesses to respond promptly and you are able. thank you all, and the committee is adjourned. 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