Transcripts For CSPAN2 Experts Testify On Impact Of Electric

the meeting will come to order. ladies and gentlemen, we are at a very historic moment for our nation. who would have thought of it even as soon as just a few years ago that we would have this golden opportunity to provide electricity that would motor our vehicles but was bringing on some serious questions and serious issues so that we know what it will take to make sure people in this country are well aware and will be able to take advantage and enjoy this movement, this great movement we are making to transition from petroleum to electricity. i want to welcome everyone to this hearing especially our witnesses because we are looking to you to tell us what this means. what does it mean for jobs? what is the impact that this will have in rural america if we do not move and make sure those in rural america can enjoy and be productive from the move we are making. i'm sure that none of us want to deal with this as we have with getting broadband internet in the communities. if we go back to electricity. it took almost forever to get to rural america which harvests our food and necessities of our lives, our clothing from textile and cotton, forestry, lumber and shelter. when we deal with agriculture, when we deal with rural america, we are dealing with the heart and soul of our great nation. i'm so delighted to have all of you here, and for us to move in this direction. also before i get to that getting to basic housekeeping, let me just assure that everyone understands how we will be proceeding after brief opening remarks, members will receive testimony from our witnesses today and the hearing will be open for questions. members will be recognized in order of seniority alternating between majority and minority members and an order of arrival for those members who have joined us after the hearing was called order and when you are recognized, you will be asked to unmute your microphone and each of you will have 5 minutes to ask your questions and make your comments and also if you were not speaking, i ask that you just remain muted in order to minimize background noise and in order to get to as many questions as possible the timer will stay consistently visible on your screen. and now before we begin i want to welcome one of our newest members who has come to be with us, just a few weeks ago and so we want to welcome chantel brown from ohio, our newest member, welcome. it is great having you. >> thank you. >> i want to turn to my own opening statement. this is historic. i am so, first of all, grateful, to our staff, for pulling together this hearing and working it, the direction of mrs. simmons. ladies and gentlemen. i call her my ethan into. for those of you who may not know who ethan hunt is, a character played by tom cruise in mission impossible but the thing here is this agriculture committee staff. mission possible. with major adoption of electric vehicles across the country and the world driven in large part in an effort to mitigate the impact of climate change with so many other of our technological advancements like i mentioned earlier, electrification, telephone service, and plumbing. i want to see that we make sure that our rural america is not left behind, as they were left behind in movement to electricity and all the other areas. this is our duty. i want to make sure we can ensure the needs of farming and agriculture. these are our vital producers of food, fiber, so many other areas we are working on. we need to know what impact this will have on movement to biofuels and other areas that our agriculture committee is working on. as i mentioned about rural america, and and georgia has 1500 charging stations, 750 states and district of columbia. metro atlanta has 1110 of the med us metro areas according to real estate data provider yardy matrix, that this is a major point outside of atlanta. the article says good luck. in rural america good luck. on i 16 between macon and savannah, a 70 mile stretch of urban america. drivers pass only four charging stations according to the website. this is why we are here we know we we are getting into. has anyone who lives in a rural community knows, our gas stations, convenience stores, often times the pillars of these communities. many of them don't have the kinds of businesses and providers we have in the urban areas. we need to know what is the impact of these businesses, what would the impact to be? i am also hoping to hear about the positive developments that could come from a more widespread adoption of electric vehicles all across rural america and with so many input costs fluctuating our farmers could electric vehicles also provide one additional stable cross on their balance sheet and beyond that and how would this electrification of vehicles translate to tractors, 2 other farm elements, to the huge trucking operations that are vital in our food supply. we hope to finance this today. so many would impact agriculture and rural communities. we want to make sure this committee has a seat at the table and the voice of america's farmers, america's ranchers, america's forrester's and above all else, rural presidents who go to school, who make life livable in rural areas are considered. with that, we would like to welcome our distinguished ranking member, the gentleman from pennsylvania, mister johnson, for any opening remarks he would like to make. quote >> that -- i just did it now. being here in the middle of the week during eight days when we celebrate the largest indoor a culture exposition on the roof of the pennsylvania farm show, it is going to go through this coming saturday. appreciate this hearing. electric vehicles are impressive feats of technology and engineering. substantial industry investment is a testament to the hope they could meet the needs of drivers across america in rural communities. and the limitation of liquid fuels has been advertised as a critical component of the global fight to reduce carbon dioxide emissions. i'm not sure that is completely proven yet but maybe this hearing will help us with that. last congress democratic members of the select committee on the climate crisis calls for eliminating internal combustion engines by 2035 despite the fact we've been using lee's, co2 emissions have been steadily reducing as a result of a lot of what we do in agriculture and this past august president biden pledged half of all new cars will be electric by 2030. don't think he should make those decisions for consumers frankly. i am skeptical such planning will meet the needs of the rural residents. congress shouldn't be picking winners and losers, drivers in the marketplace must decide what technology needs for transportation. especially rural residents for him vehicles and private transportation are an essential service and was asian is different from what we see in densely populated urban areas. the ability to choose insurers vehicles remain a productive toll at not a technological burden to work around. i am encouraged by substantial investments made by private industry but i have a few honest concerns associated with this government first drive to electrify the transportation system in chief among those are number one who will finance the huge investments in electric generation and transmission capacity so we don't wind up with brown outs and blackouts without significant increase in demand when charging new retail distribution points and all the associated financing. electric vehicles able to meet the needs of all drivers as efficiently as conventional vehicles without demanding trade-offs in cost or time of service particularly for rural residents. i would throw in the cold temperatures we are experiencing right now would be a factor. was with the impact of the transition beyond liquid fuel or liquid transportation fuel industry particularly for agricultural producers and oil producers, two industries which often form the foundation of regional, rural economies and number 4 expanding electric vehicle manufacturing increase dependence on under regulated foreign nations for the raw materials necessary to build ev batteries. those are fair questions and maybe we could find solutions and answers to them. the cost of these questions must be balanced against the purpose of the policy which is reducing global co2 emissions. that should be the driving force. at the end of the day, the total emissions associated with transitions fails to make a significant dent in global carbon dioxide emissions and congress must ask whether a national policy of promoting or imposing evs is worth it. what policies meet our goals in continuing to lower, america has done better, deny 9 countries that follow us in terms of reducing co2 emissions. what can we do to further success at a lower cost and lower flexible would be for consumers. this question is especially pressing for rural communities in pennsylvania 15, the cost of building new infrastructure and eliminating record transportation tools. i am not sure president biden's administration recognizes that liquid fuel money, talk with any township, are critical to maintaining doing the road maintenance in rural roads. global emission reductions for potential disruptions to rural communities, implications for costs for infrastructure. as we consider the impact of electric vehicles in rural america, policies in place to suit the needs of drivers and integrate them into the transportation system as seamlessly as possible without exacerbating public policy problems. i am appreciative of all the witnesses that agreed to testify before us. i want to thank each and every one of them for their time and expertise. i look forward as each of you testify. i thank you for holding this hearing. appreciate your convening a panel of experts to help us sort through many questions and with that i yield back the balance of my time. >> thank you, ranking member and the chair would request other members submit your opening statements for the record. so witnesses may begin their testimony and to ensure there is ample time for questions and i want to introduce our distinguished witnesses and our first witness is the honorable david strickland. mister strickland is the vice president of global regulatory affairs for general motors. our next witness is mister lincoln wood, electrification policy manager of our southern company headquartered in atlanta, georgia. our third witness today is mister matthew laughridge, owner and managing director of the terry reed enterprises. on behalf of the national automobile dealers association of cartersville, georgia. our fourth witness today mister trevor walter, the vice president of petroleum supply management. and also on behalf of the national association of convenience stores of altoona, pennsylvania. our fifth witness is mister jeff cooper, the president and chief executive officer of the renewable fields association from alicedale, and our fifth witness is mister josh nasser, legislative director of the international union of the united automobile, aerospace, and agriculture implementation workers of america. the uaw. here in washington dc. our seventh and final witness today is mister mark mills who is senior fellow at the manhattan institute from chevy chase, maryland. thank you all for coming and you represent the important industries you all are the ones that will make this happen and we thank you for it. i am so pleased to have such a distinguished panel before us today. each of you will have five minutes. it should be visible to you in your countdown to 0 at which point your time has expired. mister strickland, please begin when you are ready. >> here we go. >> to the mute button once again. good morning. my name is david strickland, general motors vice president of global regulatory affairs. i think ranking member thompson and other members of the committee for inviting me to tell you more about general motors commitment to an all electric 0 emissions future in the opportunity of electric vehicle investments for rural america. a general motors, our vision is a world of 0 emissions in 0 congestion building an inclusive all electric future is the right thing to do for the world, us competitiveness and 85,000 us employees across the country. we are committed to bringing everybody in on this future. and to make sure we leave no community behind which we can't achieve this alone, gm is committed to doing our part. we invest in autonomous vehicles by 2025 and planning to launch over the same timeframe. including option that every price point and every lifestyle, we are increasing range and decreasing cost of ev to make them more affordable and accessible. in addition to the manufacturing incentive we are investing $25 million in the climate equity fund which is dedicated to closing equity gaps in transition to electric vehicles and other sustainable technologies. we just relayed a silver ev in my background. the capability for otto customers have come to expect in terms of strength, durability and performance. it will offer a gm s 400 miles and full charge which is from atlanta to albany, and 264 horsepower. customers in rural america to satisfy other needs on and off the car. with gm's ev portfolio today and those on the horizon which include a range of vehicles from pickups, suvs and commercial vehicles we believe no other automaker matches the depth and range of our portfolio. we are converting large portions of manufacturing ev production, gm is committed to bringing our workforce and dealers on his journey as well as continue to create good paying us jobs. by 25, north american ev is simply capacity will reach 20%, we have announced 9000 jobs, more than 9 billion in new electric vehicle or battery manufacturing facilities in michigan, ohio and tennessee and more to come. furthermore we are looking to secure the raw material supply chains needed to grow at the scale required. another aspect of preparing communities is ensuring access charges. today, charges exist in other areas. gm will invest $750 million in workplace and public charges, we are developing a community charging program with 4000 us to expand access with 40,000 level destination chargers throughout their communities including rural. this is significant because 90% of the us population is within 10 miles of gm dealership. these charging stations will be interoperable available to customers not just those who purchase the gm ev. gm is leading innovation with major charging networks does cannon house office building charging experience. real-time information with 100,000 charging spots throughout the us and canada. to get to an all electric future, to make sure they get confined to the city from coast-to-coast. to be gained by leaving ev and battery technology, and with private-sector efforts leading, including investing in infrastructure that includes highway corridor doors and investment for an important first step and to leverage existing usd programs to further that. investing tax credit went into 5 companies that establish battery manufacturing capacity in the us and to build the us supply chain. and consumer incentive which included modification for the tax credit for new and used vehicles which is proven to be an effective accelerator for adoption. as we in the strategy we have the opportunity to create a better future for generations to come and the opportunity to testify and look forward to answering your questions. representative rush is on the call, and called me to his office to strengthen the federal executive -- the comments he showed me i will never forget. mister rush, thank you for everything for me and for the country. >> thank you so much. i agree with you. bobby rush is legendary in terms of his leadership and representing to client folks. please begin when you are ready. >> thank you for having me here today to testify, the elective occasion policy, as you know, an energy company, we serve 9 million customers across the country. this is an important hearing on an important topic that has been discussed today, lots of opportunity, electric vehicles are cheaper to operate to maintain, to decolonize the transportation sector, thanks for passing the infrastructure jobs act. the infrastructure funding that is allotted is a welcome developing for ev drivers nationwide, compared to regulating programs and private market investments that will dramatically stand the availability of ev charging. to tell you about our efforts we have a long history in supporting the industry and our involvement continues. for 50 years our research and development organization has been at the forefront of researching electric transportation technologies on on the road and off-road. we are a founding member of energy impact partners which is a venture capital fund which is among the products portfolio. activities can be broken down into six buckets, the first being rolling out public ev charging infrastructure and with that, rates of including mitigating where it is needed. the third piece of it, large customers that have, to be converted to that, and a founding member for industry organizations, workforce development and preparing workforce is a key area of focus for that. and mississippi state for curriculum development. with that goes economic development for cities and communities for the states which we serve and ev manufacturer and announcements out of georgia all in the past year are three examples of the growth of industry. a special note for this committee, southern company is helping the administration with their goals, piloting the first turnkey surface in albany and we hope the process would be a template for us that we can share next in line. as i came here today i wanted to offer a few thoughts around where congress would be helpful going forward. the first being agriculture, the need to understand the implications of agriculture electrification. there could be a research program created and it needs to be a multi-stakeholder process for manufacturing of the equipment and to understand the implications of charging, and farmers involvement in that so they don't bear the full costs of the equipment by themselves. with that, we have a joint electrification so that would qualify as moving people and goods with electricity. whatever learnings we have, we need to make sure they are allocating, and i have contact for the curriculum. there college of agriculture, i can't see the school but should it please the committee, there are avenues we can explore on how to get there. in the last piece in terms of battery recycling, still an issue for the industry we are working toward but research budgets that come up, that is where we need to focus, but a first the privilege. i am atlanta-based. and electric vehicle through rural north carolina and virginia, 660 miles of gasoline driving. happy to answer your questions, thank you for having me. >> matthew laughridge, please start. you may need to unmute. >> ranking member thompson, my name is matthew laughridge. i'm a hyundai genesis dealer. i'm honored to represent the national automobile dealers association, national trade association, new car and truck dealers. most members are small businesses in franchised dealers employ more than 1 million americans with mister chairman, the transition from internal combustion engines to electric is well underway. dealers are making substantial investment to sell and service to dozens of new electric vehicles or the thes which automakers will soon be manufacturing and estimates dealers nationally will spend between 2 and $3 billion installing electric chargers, purchasing special equipment, investing in sales and service personnel. franchise dealers are not only all in, they are essential to the speedy adoption with evs comprising 2% of sales. dealers will be critical and transitioning from internal combustion vehicles to evs. .. and dealer network is perfectly positioned to assist consumers with the transition to electric vehicles. as franchise dealers already perform all these necessary services. the franchised dealer model benefits rural america. some communities the franchised dealership is one of the largest private employers. many . many franchised dealerships are family owned and operated and assert their local community for decades, just like mine. state vehicle franchise law also be a key entering price competition and market success for evs. as members may be aware, , stats traditionally license and regulate the distribution of sale and service of vehicles within their state, including evs. these laws are based on the states interest to protect consumers, reserve price competition, support local jobs, and provide local tax revenue. they also regulate the economic relationship between dealers, automakers, which ensures small dealers and rural areas are treated fairly. we urge congress to preserve the states traditional role to regulate vehicle commerce by rejecting any attempt to preempt state dealer franchise law. mr. chairman, america's franchised dealer will help usher in next chapter of america automotive history by doing what dealers do best, providing our customers with reliable and affordable high for transportation. you for the opportunity to testify. >> thank you very much. now mr. walter, you may begin. >> chairman scott, ranking member thompson, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. my name is trevor walter and and the vice president of petroleum supply management at sheetz. on testifying today on behalf of of the national association of convenience stores. the companies that currently provide transportation energy to motors and are well-positioned to play an important role in the carbonized in the transportation sector through the sale of cleaner liquid fuels and alternative technologies such as electricity. we want to partner with congress to help achieve environmental goals in in a market oriented consumer friendly manner. we know that one of the challenges to the development of electric vehicle market is consumer perceptions on the availability of chargers, often referred to as range anxiety. these perceptions often do not match reality. by far, the best way to address this problem is for more chargers to be deployed. our industries locations are purposely visible. people already have established patterns using them, and we typically show the prices of fuel on large signs that motorists can see as they are driving. when drivers are able to readily see that they can get electricity the same way and in the same places they refuel now, range anxiety will no longer be an impediment to the purchase of the vehicles. the imports of our industry to tackling this problem is particularly relevant to rural america. 86% of americans of americans living in rural america live within ten minutes of a convenience store. this shows a remarkable reach of our industry. this reaches even more true in urban areas as 93% of americans overall live within ten minutes of a c store. for our industry to play an important role and for charging to be good for consumers, the sale of electricity must be reform such that a functioning retail market for sale of electricity to vehicle drivers merges. we have several impediments to that today. first, utilities hit commercial users of electricity such as convenience and fuel retailers with punitive demand charges. given the large electricity demands associated with fast chargers, these demand chargers overwhelm the cost of electricity and make it impossible for retailers to sell electricity and make a a prof. second, many utilities have had the rates they charge adjusted so that residential and business customers pay higher rates in order to underwrite the construction and operation of ev chargers. this great and unlevel playing field and prevents a competitive market from emergent because other businesses that the ploy chargers must try to recover construction and operating costs from vehicle drivers themselves. third, a handful of states still prohibit businesses from selling electricity to vehicle drivers. they only allow regulated utilities to do that. this makes businesses with chargers engage in awkward practices such as renting the chargers based on time spent on a charger rather than selling electricity. this makes for confusing experiences and stuns the growth of the market. these barriers must be addressed. addressed. we should also take advantage of healthy competition among technology to reduce carbon one of those technologies is the renewable fuels that are part of our system of powering vehicles today. those renewables are responsible for some of the largest gains we've made in the carbon eyes in the transportation sector. unfortunately some policymakers want to pick technology winners and losers rather than allowing competing options to deliver the best environmental result they can. the risk is that we may pick wrong and missed some benefits. there's also a risk that too much of one technology will be more than the system can bear. specifically, those who would ban internal combustion engines are making a grave mistake. such a ban would end investment in those technologies and the technologies that fuel them. a ban would set renewable fuels on a path to elimination and would cause economic hardship for the farmers who produce and sell the feedstocks for those fuels. those farmers have relied on the long-term policy decisions that congress has made to gear their operations towards production of these feedstocks and renewables. to pull the rug out from under them now with betrayed their trust. the problem for us to focus on is on carbon emissions. not the internal combustion engine. that is why technology neutral performance goals that honestly take into account the lifecycle of carbon emissions in the supply chain including the carbon emissions from electricity generation must be part of the foundation for sound policy. and that is why this committee has such an important role to play in this debate, this committee has recognition of the role laid by agriculture and transportation killing, and decarbonization that must be part of policy in this area. we look forward to working with the committee to deal with these questions and come up with policies that most effectively support reduced carbon emissions and delivering a market that brings reliable, sustainable, and cost-effective energy to american consumers. >> thank you very, very much. mr. cooper, please begin when you're ready. >> thank you and good morning chairman scott, ranking member thompson, and members of the committee. my name is geoff cooper and i am president and of the renewable fuels association. we're the leading trade association for america's ethanol industry. thank you for convening this timely and important hearing today and i appreciate the opportunity to share our industries and unique perspective. the of electric vehicles and the push to decarbonized transportation could have important implications for farm country and we commend the committee for thinking carefully about those issues. as you know the massive increase in public and private investment in electric vehicles is being driven by the need to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and achieve economy wide carbon neutrality by 2050. transportation is the leading source of greenhouse gas emissions in the u.s. accounting for nearly one-third of our nation's total emissions. thus, any started to achieve net-zero emissions by midcentury must include measures of rapidly decarbonized the transportation sector. we agreed that electric vehicles will be an important part of that strategy but given the time needed to transition light-duty vehicle fleet continued reliance on fossil fuels for electricity generation, the difficulty of electrifying medium and heavy-duty vehicles, and other barriers, electric fields alone will not get our transportation sector to net zero emission by 2050. today there there are more than 267 million light-duty vehicles in the u.s. just 2.3 million of those vehicles, that's less than 1%, our battery electric or plug-in hybrid evs. the other 99% run on liquid fuels. information -- four out of five new vehicles sold in 2050 l still be internal combustion engines requiring liquid fuels. so even with increased, electric vehicle sales and years ahead it would take decades to turn over the fleet. and that means hundreds of billions of gallons of liquid fuels will continue to be burned for years, for decades to come. so given these realities, other complementary solutions clearly will be needed to decarbonized transportation by midcentury. and that's her agriculture comes in. through increased production and use of renewable fuels like ethanol, the agriculture sector offers an effective and immediate solution for decarbonizing all segments of the transportation sector. today's desperate already cut its greenhouse gas emissions by approximately 50% compared to gasoline according to the department of energy, harvard university and others. with increased adoption of low carbon farming practices, carbon capture, sequestration and storage, and of the technologies, we are well on our way to producing zero carbon corn ethanol. in fact, the members of my organization are so confident about this that they adopted a resolution last july pledging to achieve a net-zero carbon footprint for corn ethanol by 2050, or sooner. but for this vision to become a reality we need fairness and consistency in how the carbon footprint of different fuels in vehicles is measured. for ethanol is footprint, regulators count the emissions associated with every step in the supply chain, from planting the seed all the way to delivering to the consumer at retail. for the carbon footprint of electric vehicles, however, the upstream emissions associate with electricity generation in battery manufacturing are often overlooked, giving the false impression that electric vehicles are zero emission vehicles. these overlooked emissions can be quite significant. in fact, analysis we conducted shows a ford f1 50 flex fuel vehicle which happens to you what i drive running on an 85% ethanol blend will generate far fewer greenhouse gas emissions over its lifetime that a new ford f150 lightning electric vehicle running on fossil generate electricity. we believe any future decarbonization policy should take a technology neutral performance-based approach that focuses strictly on greenhouse gas emissions reduction and increasing fuel efficiency. without dictating the use of specific fuels and vehicles to reduce those reduction. that's why i support the concept of a national low carbon fuels standard. we also support the next-generation fuels act was introduced by congresswoman bustos which establishes carbon performance and minimum octane stands for liquid fuels again without dictating what fuels would be used. in closing we believe electric vehicles will play a key role in reducing emissions over the long-term. but if, if we are serious about achieving a carbon neutral transportation sector by 2050 we must take a comprehensive approach that also capitalizes on the building of agriculture to deliver low and zero carbon renewable fuels. thank you and i look forward to your questions. thank you very much, and now mr. >> thank you, chairman scott, and i want you thank you and ranking member thompson, members of the committee for the chance to testify today on behalf of the uaw 1 million members and retirees and our executive order president ray curry. just the first want to say that you know, our membership and retirees, their livelihoods depend on having a healthy auto industry. and the reality is that there is a global transformation going to electric vehicles and with countries like china and european union that already made massive public investments to establish their industries, and, frankly, they are beating us. so we do really -- but as has been said by other witnesses, it is going to take time so i think it really is important that we do look to biofuels and other things to also reduce carbon emissions, and we also support next-generation fuels act very strongly. but there's other things i encourage a going to keep in mind, too. one is that the agricultural implement industry is also moving forward with electrification and autonomous vehicles. john deere just made a recent study about an autonomous tractor that's going to be online pretty soon. so electrification is going to impact manufacturing kind of across-the-board, and i think that's something that we need to take into account. in fact, we have over 15,000 members who work in the agriculture development industry. now, back to electric vehicles, you know, in order to have -- so the bottom line for us is that companies our members work for make huge investments, and those investments if they fail will be bad for our economy, will be bad for our members, and for working families across the board. so we need this transition to work. part of that, we need a strong domestic market. we are not going to export our way into having a strong ev market. we need -- that will only happen, you know, if we have a strong infrastructure, you know, the infrastructure laws is a start in that direction. we also need strong policies to help the transition when it comes to retooling and things like that. i should add some of that is in the infrastructure laws, some of that is in the build back better. better. we also need strong consumer incentives, and we commend the house of representatives for including provisions which would add extra incentives for vehicles built by union workers and we think that's really important because the reality is that auto jobs, auto manufacturing jobs really help establish manufacturing jobs as middle-class jobs some time ago. but that's really changing. it's really going in the wrong direction. wages are roughly 20% 20% ce dropped roughly 20% over the past 15 years for autoworkers in auto parts, so we are not, a lot of jobs are not what they used to be. a big way to change it is to have, allow workers free choice to join unions. it's true that unionized workers in comparative fields have usually 10% higher wages for serious economic impact of the workers for joining a union. one thing that we've seen is that a lot of foreign-based automakers were unionized pretty much a tour around the world. when they come to the u.s. the end of the being quite opposed to unionization. we need to do a few things in our view. one is we need to pass the next generation fuels act. i think that's going to be helpful. we also need to move forward on this three prongs in order for the ev transition to work. i mean, argue is the transition, i mean, that's what all analysts say, too, is it's coming whether we like it or not. so it's better to be in the race and to have a strong auto industry making evs, than not. the only way that's going to happen is if with public policy as well is private investments. so very much looking forward to answering questions, and really appreciate the opportunity. thanks again. >> thank you very much. and now mr. mills, you are recognized. you may need -- go right ahead. >> thank you, mr. chairman, a good afternoon and thank you for the opportunity. to testify. as you probably know my work focuses on technology forecasting so i would be remiss if not starting up by noting i just published a new book on america's broad-based and exciting technology and economic future with the subtitle the roaring 2020s so you might imagine i'm pretty optimistic about america's future. but onto the subject today. as the kemeny know so far despite rapid growth in ev sales, batteries power only about 0.6% of vehicles on america's roads and it's at least ten times lower than that in rural areas. so the issue is whether the world urban is amenable to policy that would have great views and, of course, at what cost? also relevant is whether or not later ev use in rural america with significantly impact global emissions. let me focus on summarizing three-tiered realities. first, the greatest -- they took it meet the overall tactical performance requirements. especially in rural areas. the conventional wisdom is that consumers reluctance to embrace evs in general especially for rural use arises primarily from the so-called range anxiety and, of course, costs. the former it's argued can be solved with more charging stations. the latter were told to me fix with subsidies. that would soon become unnecessary because of expectations. other than that inevitable decline in cost for batteries. but the facts suggest otherwise. most evs didn't offer a range coupled to a conventional car including the new newly announced gm offering and ford's lightning. both have 400-mile range batteries. the practical problem is the time it takes to refuel a battery. instead of five minutes to fill of a pickup trucks tank, standard level to charge is tenors. the so-called supercharger can cut that the 40 minutes but that is still nearly ten times longer than normal. so providing the same consumer experience means installing at least ten fold more superchargers than exist at gas pumps. and the former superchargers cost twice as much as the gasoline pump. so that 20 fold higher infrastructure cost per consumer, it's only part of the story. superchargers operate at about ten fold higher power levels than standard charges. the rural distribution infrastructure will have to be upgraded radically and an infrastructure that is far more expensive for household and urban areas. then there are hidden cost. of course world grid outages about 50% more frequent than in urban areas. today in a row resident can't ensure travel travel is possible during an outage, whatever the cause of the outage come by spending a few hundred dollars on gasoline storage capacity to fill the pickup talks trucks tank. but when a grid happen when it for lightning as i have charged the homeowner would have spent over $30,000 on a home-based expert system that could hold enough backup power to philip just half of the pickup truck's battery. so that brings me to the assumption that ev subsidies will become unnecessary because of the expectation that batteries will soon become far cheaper. the fact is the math adoption of evs will dramatically stretch local supply chain and probably too high or not lower prices for batteries in the coming years. the global plans to expand battery production along with solar and wind construction are paralleled. studies that show including from the iea expect demand to increase from 400% to over 4000% for the the first critical s that are needed to build all the plant hardware. on average, it's important to note compared to a gasoline vehicle, and 80 intel's least 1000% increase in the overall tonnage and materials that are extracted from the earth to deliver the same lifetime miles. so the growth in demand armatures will be far greater right now than the rate at which the world's minors are planning or likely able to expand supply. keep in mind the global average to open up a new mine is 16 years and is far longer in the united states. some basic commodity economics is demand for ev battery minerals outstrips supply, it will fuel a price increase not a decrease that is assumed by me if his use. commodities alone comprise 60-70% of the costs to fabricate a battery. even with energy minerals come supply chain that's not get fully stretched because of memory evs still account for a 5% of new vehicle purchase it, even than the overall price for this sort of sweep of ev audrey meadows the price for those carotids is a 200% over the past two years. what's that that has caused last years battery cost declined by 36%. dramatic slowdown. the current forecast is to see lithium battery cost rise next year as commodity inflation continues. the future price for batteries is now determined mainly by the mining and the commodities markets. it bears noting most of the minerals in the chemical processing takes place overseas if the issue of foreign dependencies energy materials used to be something that congress worried about. today chinese firms dominate the critical mineral mining and process supply chains and the majority of growth in the mining processing is expected offshore. just for the record the u.s. depends on imports for 100% of some 17 17 critical mineralsd for over half of the supply of another 20 minerals. it goes without saying that -- >> mr. mills, your time has expired. >> let me just say as a final point that the data show that a will only have a trivial impact of global oil use, maybe 3% reduction of world oil use, and, in fact, potentially lead to increased carbon dioxide emissions when the fabrication of batteries is counted. thank you. >> thank you very much. at this time members will ask questions in order of seniority, alternating between majority and minority members. you will be recognized for five minutes each in order to allow us to get in as many questions as possible. and please keep your microphones muted until you are recognized in order to minimize background noise. i now recognize myself for five minutes. mr. david strickland with the general motors, mr. strickland, you mentioned in your testimony general motors -- [inaudible] -- covers for the bill -- >> let me remind members, please, need yourselves. thank you very much. and now, mr. strickland, you mentioned in your testimony plans for general motors to bring 20 different models to the united states auto market by 2025, including your announcement last week for new electric pickup truck. let me ask you, how would the needs of rural america taken into consideration when you and general motors were designing these vehicles? >> mr. chairman, we have a responsibility to continue to build our customers in the market that we serve, and as america's largest automaker we really do embrace the fact servicing a full line of products and capabilities. as an example the silverado ev has a range of 400 miles and it has 664 hp, which is horsepower, which is comparable performance wise to what you see in the dealership today for silverado. with every expectation to be able to meet the wants and the needs for rural america and farmers to have that ability in addition to that, we are seeing some advantages with an electric vehicle because also out in the field if it comes an individual power plant for other farm elements and tools that may need to be charged. in addition to having the typical capability, there's some advantages we have as well. >> thank you very much. readily appreciate that. now, , to you, mr. lincoln wood with southern company. how prepared is the electric grid to handle an influx -- [inaudible] >> and again, members, mute your phones. thank you. >> how prepared is the electric grid to handle this influx of ev users? what steps are our electric utility companies taking to prepare for additional demand on the grid, particularly in regards to outdated infrastructure in rural areas? >> thank you, chairman scott for the question. first, utilities have a track record of integrating technology over the past 50, 60 years. a condition comes mind of integrating that technology into our electric grid successfully. in particular at georgia power with a 1.3 million trade investment plan, and that is looking at the grid holistically to figure out how we can increase its reliability because electric vehicles are not the only reason to make investments into the grid, whether it's severe weather, whether it be cyber concerns, renewables or energy efficiency utilities across a look at the electric grid to upgrade or make more resilient for all these reasons but a couple specific activities that we are working on might be automated line devices we can isolate the source of outage and make it a small impact to the grid itself. it could be maintenance at a substation or rebuilding the entire substation is due to increase reliability. it could be even for a transmission system rebuilding even the structures if those are needed. it could be adding alternate circuits -- go ahead. i see have a question. >> yes, i have a minute left and have another important question. however, we will make sure we get in touch with you to get your full answer, all right? >> of course. >> it's very important for us to have the uaw here. they are distinguished members, very distinguished union. they provide the workers. they are the ones that put it together. so, mr. nassar, what will be the impact in terms of jobs for your union members? >> well, you know, that really depends on how successful the ev transition is and how many people are buying them and how, you know, how that's going to work out as far as the marketplace. it's also depend on what we're going to do with the battery manufacturer. are we going to do the manufacturing here in the u.s.? so it's quite a few open questions about what kind of jobs will be produced by this change over to evs. a lot of it has to do also with economic policy. i want want to point out that we fed big problems throughout manufacturing, many industries, because semiconductor shortage which was in our opinion a a really self-inflicted wound because we didn't have policies to make sure that production was here. we encourage the house to pass fortunes of -- the chips act for the semiconductors but overall job impact, it is dependent on if workers have a voice and what kind of policies we have to support the transition. >> thank you very much. the gentleman from georgia, mr. scott, is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. my first question is for you, mr. strickland. the vehicle behind you will be available in late 23, is that correct? >> yes, sir. >> for most of us in rural america community, we don't just use our vehicles to move from place to place. they are tools. i mean, for us, and if we wait them down towing trailers and other things, certainly that impacts the fuel economy that we get in a normal pickup truck. what does that do to the range of the vehicle? i would assume it would reduce it. so if i'm holding a trailer do i go from 400 to 300 miles? what is the impact on the range? >> well, sir, it certainly can't defy the laws of physics. just like in packet fuel economy of the internal combustion engine vehicle. where were given hard a new battery technologies. our old platform is one of the foundational things we are doing to not only are we very excited about the performance long-term but it's going to get better. and i think we think about the technology we're going to have to recognize the fact that these are working vehicles. we supply america's work trucks, and so yes, absolutely refuse sort of think through those things. that's very much on engine in planning and we are very bullish on the opportunity to be divided vehicle that is a true working vehicle for farmers and everybody else. >> if i use a supercharger to charge the vehicle, what does it cost me to charge it? >> i think -- i don't know the exact answer to how much but i will sorely get back to you on the record. >> thank you for that. that's when the question i have is what does it cost to recharge, , especially for usina supercharger? i can see were electric vehicles would be very valuable for people who just need a daily vehicle to commute. they start and stop at the same place every time. for some of us on the road significant more i think we will probably stick with the internal combustible engines for the foreseeable future. i am concerned as mr. wood talked about, about becoming more and more dependent on china with regard to natural resources. mr. wood, i'm sorry, it was not mr. wood who said that. it was mr. mills who is talking about that. so mr. mills, the rare earth elements, a lot of them are mined from the middle east and from africa if i'm not mistaken but the mites are controlled by china. would you expand on where the raw materials are mined and how china has embedded themselves in the supply chain? >> certainly, thanks for the question. first, rare earth minerals specifically china has about 90% global market dominance on the critical minerals that are not called rare earth. this is nickel, cobalt come so forth. china has market dominance in refining those materials like carbon and graphite and cobalt, but russia is a big player in nickel. south american firms are, african firms. china is one of the largest investors particularly in africa might and in the processing industries associated with taking the raw or entering into useful minerals. so it's a completely focus that they are an opec of battery minerals instead of a big portfolio of countries you would have just three countries. fortunately a couple includes our friends in canada, being a canadian i'm happy to say that , and, of course, australia but their market share is very small compared to the rest of the world. >> so mr. laughridge, you drove from atlanta to d.c. in an electric vehicle and is that correct? i'm sorry. >> that was me, lincoln wood. >> how many times did you have to recharge on the weight? >> four. >> four, okay. and how long did it take you each time to recharge? >> half an hour. >> half an hour. what did it cost to recharge? >> in this particular model it was free here. >> it was free to recharge. you expect that would be the trend going forward? >> i cannot say, , but it was offered in this particular model for free. >> to recharge. where did you recharge? >> two two of them were actuat sheetz stations, just in the community based on can one was in glen allen virginia at a target for mr. scott, your s expired. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> yes. and now i recognize the gentlewoman from north carolina, miss add-ins, who is also the vice chair of our committee, five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman, ranking member, thank you as well. thank you for holding today's hearing and my thanks as well to the witnesses for their testimony. the climate crisis faces significant challenge of one, not just a select few. so as we continue to transition towards clean energy and transportation, we must focus on equitable distribution of the charging infrastructure and not forget our rural and traditionally underserved communities. which is why i applaud my colleagues in the biden administration for enacting the bipartisan infrastructer investment and jobs act. this bill will fight climate crisis and it bands a quality will also creating high quality to u.s. manufacturing jobs. my question first of all to mr. strickland. rural drivers often of different driving needs than their urban counterparts. they need heavy-duty vehicles, beautifully bands or trucks with hauling capacity and they drive longer distances. mr. strickland, how is gm taking that into account as it transitions to electric vehicles? >> miss add-ins, again, we have focused on being a full-line manufacturer across a range of vehicles that we currently provide, including medium duty and heavy-duty vehicles and we also have a partnership which provides commercial vehicles as well. the goal once what's agains you alluded to for the iija is being able to have the money for the infrastructure bill that would be very, very important, to being able to have the resources to be up to provide consumer incentives. and being able to think about how we implement charging strategies for role can reduce and those are all incredibly important and we're looking forward to working with you and the rest of the committee members on hopefully getting that money distributed and then once again being able to court rural communities and appoint the vehicles they did but also the ability to charge them. >> okay, well and keep your i will follow up. what can we do as congress to ensure -- farmers and ranchers have access to electrical vehicles and charging stations? did you want to expound on that anymore pgh yes, ma'am, absolutely. one of the things we're working on and with climate equity fund which is providing $25 million to actually support the ability to do with stuff to disadvantaged communities and committees at a frankly elected by desert isn't just simply working with our partners and providing charging stations but it is making that investment in communities to make sure that 25 million the more as the years go on for us to address the social gaps and those disparate impacts of folks who don't have -- where very committed as was said to make sure that everybody comes along for this journey and we had to be attention to especially. >> okay. mr. laughridge, my state north carolina currently falls behind other parts of the country when comes to the adoption of electric vehicles. drivers are concerned with barriers and limited range of the vehicles, so have you seen a shift in the knowledge of or attitude towards electric vehicles in interacting with electric dealerships? what are the most common misperceptions and what you see as the biggest barrier for consumers to switch to electric vehicles? >> thank you for the question. to go to the last part of your question, the barriers, the biggest barriers we see is education. part of what i believe is the essential part of dealerships being involved in distributing the bbs is educating the customer about their needs and assessment of what type of vehicle that they want to buy, whether ev is a proper vehicle or internal combustion engines is the proper vehicle. but we're all in in making sure the customer gets the availability, from a pricing and makes sure we are able to give them the correct information that fits them and their family needs. >> let me quickly, mr. mills, what do you suggest we do to lower carbon dioxide emissions? >> thank you. i think if we're serious about lowering the emissions come the cheapest fastest way if you want to spend congressional money on subsidies is to incentivize the purchase of far more efficient into a the combustion engines. much cheaper, much faster and easy to document. and we know that all the automakers make pickup trucks, full-size trucks that are more fuel-efficient than their low average. so a very fast way to do, much, much cheaper and easy to document, frankly. >> the gentlelady's time has -- >> i am going to yield back, yes, sir. >> i know recognize the gentleman from arkansas, mr. crawford, five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i appreciate it. mr. strickland come as you wanted democrats continue to try to pick winners and losers by subsidizing ev purchases using taxpayer dollars. the current proposal would give up to $12,500 for individuals making less than $800,000. now to me someone making that kind of money doesn't really need any free money to purchase a new vehicle. what's more these credits that the economic livelihood of small businesses in arkansas elsewhere of the country who rely on distributive and selling traditional motor fuels. i'd also wonder why we subsidize evs when they don't contribute to the highway trust fund. all vehicle owners and operators know matter what fuel type they choose including electric vehicles should pay their fair share for road maintenance and repair. how will subsidizing a vehicles impose economic hardships on small business fuel providers across the country? >> i think the perspective of i think a number of folks indeed it was climate own transition sees there is frank mora opportunity and more opportunities for jobs and job creation with a green agenda, including the evolution and transition going to electric vehicles. the issue in terms of providing support from the consumer demand to be able to get dav consumer demand up actually will drive down the cost of batteries. will actually provide -- to be able to support these pickles long-term, and we think that the overall economic prospects of making the transition is positive. with that being said we do understand that road maintenance and issues are sorely very important and we willing to work with congress to figure out ways to be able to make sure we figure out of those equities in making sure the road maintenance continues to be maintained since this will be impacted by moving -- across the support system. >> well, yeah, i want to make sure that we ensure that evs are paying their fair share for the wear and tear that they in part on our highways. i don't know if you're open to suggestions or not, but i'm wondering why the industry hasn't developed some sort of a more efficient sort of a battery exchange type model where you could, like, for example, when you exchange your propane tanks at a local retailer for your gas grill i would. it just seems to expedite the process, those retailers are already prepared to collect the associated taxes. how hard would that be dash and i know we're making progress in the electronic vehicle space, but there just doesn't seem to be much consideration about how we address this collection of taxes with regard to the highway trust fund. i'm just wondering if maybe a battery exchange type approach might be more effective. what are your thoughts? is that a viable consideration for evs? >> there's a number of prospective ways to think about collecting the user fees in order to support the highway system. we would be happy to engage with you and your office on that particular idea. clearly think about bad exchanges or changing batteries definitely has some pluses and minuses terms of vehicles rigidity and things of that nature but we're all in for config at the most equitable way to make sure we continue to support our roads. >> thank you to also think it probably expedite the process as opposed to pulling in to a charging station and being forced to wait 30, 40 minutes for your batteries to charge where you could do a quick change and be on your way. that may be help expedite the process in addition to creating a better collection model. so appreciate your comments and try to appreciate the hearing and to all the witnesses, thank you, and i will yield back. >> thank you. the gentlewoman from virginia, ms. spanberger, who was also the chair of the subcommittee on conservation and for history is recognized for five minutes -- for a straight. >> thank you, mr. chairman and to our guests who are here today thank thank you so much, and mr. wood, i would just note that when you stop to charge a vehicle in glen allen, virginia, you are doing so in the wonderful sabbath district of virginia as i hope you enjoyed the stop. mr. strickland come i am very pleased are about the many steps that general motors is taking to help deploy a fee charging infrastructure to rural communities. but i also strongly agreed that the u.s. must really step up to the plate through targeted public investment. in your testimony you welcome the opportunity to as you put it leverage existing usda programs to further support ev charging stations and charging infrastructure. could you elaborate a little on why that might be especially helpful in rural areas, and how legislation like the electric vehicle charging infrastructure for farmers act could really help build momentum and build on the momentum that general motors has generated in addressing real ev charging desert. >> , bottom line being is usda recognizes the needs of rural americans. that's the agency that serves the entire population of those communities so being able to leverage existing resources and, frankly, have the expertise of usda in terms of think about ways to support and wasted the point i think would be essential in trying to make sure of a successful rural development program in terms of the expansion of charging stations. so we're happy to work with you and your office and the other members on this important legislation and we think it is thoughtful to have really address the specific needs for rural communities. >> thank you. i really do appreciate, when we're thinking about how we can compete with other nations in the ev market and we think about the role of manufacturing, can you explain a bit more how investment in the deployment of domestic charging infrastructures are, in fact, really essential towards competing internationally in the ev space? again, , from your perspective. >> its foundational. when we think about our international competition dealing with our competitors, whether it's china, whether it's in europe, to be able to build up and have a successful charging infrastructure which supports the ability for people to buy and use these pickles that is how we maintain our competitiveness long-term and that is frankly the world's best automotive manufacturer. -- these vehicles. we need to have all those elements to compete and having that opportunity to be able to build that out is, its foundational. >> thank you. i'm really proud of the fact i will be introducing legislation bipartisan legislation today to expand the rural energy for america program to include electric vehicle supply equipment. as an eligible expense for farmers and agribusinesses that apply for that support. so certainly congresswoman adams i will be in touch with your office because it might get some of the questions that were asked in your five minutes. i do firmly believe this change will help ensure our farmers and agribusinesses and by extension our rural communities have greater access to a fee charging infrastructure. mr. strickland you were kind to comment on the bill that my legislation electric charging infrastructure act, it is really started to gain support across a range of stakeholders because its supporters include other car manufacturers such as ford motor company, a national resources defense council, environmental working group and zero emission, i would really like to thank my colleagues republican guardsman tom price of south carolina for recognizing the value of this legislation to our communities, to industries in our districts and certainly to our farmers and producers across the country. i'm coming up on time but mr. strickland if i could just ask one more general question. from the perspective of car manufacturers, certainly many of the things you've all mentioned, the investments that general motors is making in electric vehicles, also in equity priorities that the company maintains, looking down the line many other decisions presumably that you as the company are making are based on where the market is going been responded to what consumers want. could you comment a little bit on really what made it so that beautiful car, vehicle, the silverado behind you, is one of the top priorities, is a vehicle that you all are going to be producing and why for those of us in congress were trying to be responsive might hear from you as to how you reached that place? >> the future of -- the future is electrification, period. the world has recognized it. it is just up us. it's europe, it's china, its asia. the bottom line is people are exposed to electric vehicles -- >> the gentlelady's time has expired. yet many that want to ask que, so speeded thank you, mr. chairman. and thank you to our witnesses. i yield back. >> the gentleman from california, mr. lamalfa, is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. appreciate it. i just wanted to -- lets go with mr. wood here, , please. i wanted to ask the question on looking at the grid realities i have been northern california and all of our state of california really, we have some pretty big challenges. just for example, this winter, this is after a summer of fire and 1,000,000 acres in just one fire and some hundred thousand in others affect the grid and generation, et , et cetera. now we've had recent come some kind of unprecedented level of snow at lower elevations. it's not about a lot of our power grid to constituents like nevada county and sierra county and others, in the sierras in general. so many people have been left without power for weeks, and so what's overlooking that combined with the summer months, for example, the public safety power shutoffs come people honestly don't know what that means is they intend to shut the power off in the summertime when was going to be highways because of the fear that tree branches and trees might blow into power lines and two blackouts and cause fires, which keeps happening, right? the dixie fire, almost 1,000,000 acres. in this case it was a tree fell into a power line that had a bad root system that was undetected. but other times it's the same thing. what you're looking at is a grid that is already in question, and even without the shutoffs from public safety aspects, when it gets really hot in california they ask people to shut off manufacturer plant in others that already pre-positioned to shut off and herbs make the grid to carry through the hottest days as well as -- right after these electric cars are getting so popular supposedly they had come there asking people not to elect -- not to charge their electricals from three to 9 p.m. is a market driving this thing with electric cars or is it government and a lot of hype by media works because i don't know people that are just that hot to get electric cars in their areas, especially with those on limited incomes. mr. wood, they are looking at charging cash it as a mention charging evs drink a non--- non-peak periods to avoid rolling power outages. with the condition of the grid as i mentioned in california, they want to pull hydroelectric plants ofcom teardown at least five dams to make hydropower. we have lost nuclear power plants in san diego area which is about 9% of the grid. they will take down the san luis obispo canyon within a couple years, that's another 9% of the grid. where the hell is up are supposed to come come from to run all this? >> thank you so much for the question. i'll acknowledge that california is that an area where southern company search electricity some happy to make -- for further follow-up. i'll also add in general that electric vehicles won't all charge at the same time. it generally incremental off-peak or different types of the date. same thing happens for hurricanes in the southeast for example, people getting gas to evacuate from cows come with issues with station but at a guess. these have happen for sure and happy to connect with my colleagues in california that can give you more information. >> okay. let me shift over to mr. mills here. you had a recent piece that was published on carbon accounting. what are the assumptions that for idling combustion vehicles and switching to an electrical grid? what is the whole accounting of this supposedly saving co2 and other forms of pollution in converting over to a grid like that, especially when the alternatives to power being generated are being limited? >> thank you, congressman. let me summarize quickly that in the technical literature not so much and populates literature does a lot of work going on look at the so-called fuel cycle, where the minerals or my, how they are processed and transported. and that what we know is to build a battery counting everything upstream that we don't know precisely how much carbon dioxide emissions occur in the assets of mining and moving and processing what we know the range. the people who will say they know that what exact emissions reductions are, the truth is it's a guess. the number somewhere between eight and 20 tons of co2 for a battery for one car, for pickup truck it is double that. that's the lifetime emissions of carbon dioxide for driving a regular automall speeded -- automobile -- >> the time of the gentleman has expired. the witness may provide an edge in writing, thank you. the gentlewoman from connecticut is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and thank you for having this very important hearing today. outside of this committee i worked tireless to expand access to electric vehicles. in my first year in congress i call led the clean schoolbus act with now vice president kamala harris which would allocate $1 billion over five years to replace diesel school buses with electric ones. since then i've worked to ensure investment in electric vehicles have been included in any infrastructure legislation that has come to the house floor. others i call led the clean emit for kids act which lays the blueprint first clean schoolbus provision for the investment and job sector ultimately were able to secure about $5 $5 billior the placement of diesel school buses with electric ones across this country. a key component for any plan for electric vehicle expansion is the grid. expanding our national grid will not only benefit individual consumers but communities at large. as you can tell this issue is very important to me, having had a career for 15 years as a public school teacher and stood in many bus lines and taught many kids who were affected by the harmful impact of breathing in diesel fuel. so my questions today, my first question is for mr. wood. one problem i've heard in conversations about electric vehicles is their applicability in rural areas. enormous mountain is raw areas with msp special consideration for larger placement come for larger charger placement. what can the federal government do to incentivize utilities to build charging infrastructure in rural communities? and is or any technical expee you think would be helpful for federal agencies to provide in that process? >> thank you so much for the question. i will first say utilities have an obligation to serve all customers in urban and rural areas. that's part of her public service mission. so to your point, elector schoolbus is already an important aspect of our electrification plan and something were already looking at. some of my context of the industry i talked to and when to switch electric buses have told me about their testing procedures which might be loading the bus down, running it in very cold temperatures, very hot temperatures with a lot of weight in it. some of those methods already in flight. i think additional assistance from d.o.e. to modeling what the matters would look like him any of that could be helpful. i would say as i said earlier in my opening comments, the infrastructure ev infrastructure that's already been passed is a great help. if you want to carve out for elector schoolbus is especially the first cause problem that is more of an issue for the schoolbus problem of if the school district needs five school buses but they can only for three because electric may cost more, that to me is were i see more of the challenge then the infrastructure itself. .. >> typically that piece of equipment is very, very precise, if you barely press the accelerator you barely move forward and don't have the idle that pulls you forward. if you plan a certain number of crops in an area for a particular harvest, precise, autonomous and control it, that's how we can gain and understand what those implications are. >> thank you so much and i don't really have time for my last question, but i'm sure i'll hear the answer at some point, i'm just interested to know what investments in resources can congress provide to address the increased demand for ev's and how can we help to build out the pipeline for the manufacturers who build these electric vehicles. there's not time to answer, but hopefully throughout the rest of the hearing that will be incorporated in answers as we go along. mr. chair, i yield back, thank you. >> thank you, miss hayes and now the gentleman from illinois, mr. davis, recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, chairman scott and ranking member tore holding this hearing on electric vehicles. i'm a member of the transportation infrastructure committee and highways and transit sub committees, the largest subcommittee in congress. i'm glad that other companies are discussing the biden's build back broke scheme to bankrupt american families and president biden's policies, the average family in my district would struggle to afford a new car, let alone a more costly electric vehicle. not to mention the c.d.c.'s fluctuating whims to restrict the average working class family's ability to go to work and make a living. kind of makes you wonder why the biden administration has a push for ev's when they'd rather have every american locked inside their house. for host who can afford a new car, begs the question whether anyone who wanted to buy a car could find one on the lot. we have the tools and technology to reduce emissions right now. exactly, clear, a company in illinois is producing the technology to retrofit vehicles to work on cleaner fuels like ethanol and they're ramping up with john deere to bring it to the marketplace. and we don't have to wait until 2050 and break the law by undercutting renewable fuels. so when you look at a rough estimate, a rough estimate suggests that it costs the average american to buy an electric vehicle versus the most affordable conventional vehicle on the market, cost difference is around $38,000. so i want to get to my questions and i want to start, mr. cooper, did you see the report that reuters issued this morning stating that the biden administration is considering lowering the 2022 ethanol blending mandate below the proposed 15 billion set to be increased over the top levels from 2020 to 2021? >> well, thank you for the question congressman, davison and i did happen to see that article, actually as i was sitting here, i saw that come across the wire. certainly, great concern if those rumors are true. we do have plenty of experience with rumors being reported in the news sometimes not quit accurately, but we would be greatly concerned if epa is backtracking on its very recent proposal to make sure that we return to the 15 billion statutory requirement for statutory fuels, renewable in 2022. we will get to the bottom of the rumors and insisting that epa and this administration follow through on their commitment to restore the 15 billion gallon commitment for 2022 and beyond. >> well, mr. chairman, i actually have unanimous consent to issue this report into the record? >> without objection. >> thank you, mr. cooper, biden administration's use on emissions and biofuels and what do you think they broke the law and cut the rfs and for rural americans. >> we hope that doesn't happen. the renewable fuel is best chance for carbon emissions in the sector. it's laws on the books, 15 years now. we've seen reductions and one estimate about billions of tons because of the standards and biofuels under that program. we fwree that a strong rfs that is consistent with the strat statuary, but as epa begins the process to determine those volumes as well. >> great, one quick question for mr. strickland. how many vehicles that will be internal combustion vehicles does gm expect to produce between now and 2035? >> we expect to produce 30 to 40 million. >> well, if you're putting 30 to 40 internal combustion vehicles on the roadways, i mean, that's where the disconnect-- >> the gentleman's time has expired. >> got the technology, i yield back. >> the witness, please, you have the opportunity to provide him with an answer in writing. thank you. >> yes, mr. chairman. >> and now, we recognize the gentle woman from ohio, miss brown for five minutes. >> thank you, chairman scott and ranking member thompson for holding this hearing and thank you to all the witnesses for joining us today. we are currently at a great inflection point how we approach the next 10, 20 years will determine how we will be in the next 50. the existential threat of climate change to humankind is clearer than ever. people around the country and in ohio are having devastating fires, and harmful algae blooms in lake erie and rising in florida, too. greenhouse gas emissions threat led many to electric vehicles, likely to have lower emissions than internal combustion emissions. while the u.s. auto sales, the shares of ev increased 2%. my home state of ohio has seen a steady stream of the ev in recent years. the ev market is going to continue to grow as consumer demand for technology increases. it's prudent to begin examining this technology so we adequately address the needs of all stake holders in america, urban, suburban and rural. as we work to transition to a claim energy economy we owe it to our auto workers and farmers that they're not left behind many has spent the time and their work as any ev manufacturer. i'm confident that ev's is is step in the right direction. and leading the electric future that will allow us to remain competitive and strong in the days to come. i'd like to acknowledge that chairman scott and congresswoman adams asked and answered one of the questions that i'd like to acknowledge mr. josh nassar from the uaw. in your testimony you spoke to the environmental benefits the of the ev transition and assuring that this benefits american workers. what policies should be in place to ensure those benefits? >> well, first, thank you for the question, congresswoman. first of all, we should make sure that taxpayer dollars are use today support good jobs and responsible employers and that should be done across the board with public dollars. second thing is that we need to focus-- we're talking about the battery supply chain. it's very true to china dominates, but they've dominated from getting a lot of rare earth minerals from other countries. and what we need to do, we need to get way more involved annen -- and engaged here, and not just the packing of the batteries process, the real jobs have to do with the processing. so, we're just -- we're seriously behind. you know, the truth is that china and the european unions were focused on this well before, but it's not too late and we can't give up on fighting to be part of this transition because if we do, what's going to ultimately happen, ev's become a larger share of the market and fewer and fewer will be made. fewer cars and manufacturing jobs will be in the u.s. so, i think really engaging fully in the entire supply chain is incredibly important and making sure that there are conditioned on taxpayer dollars. >> thank you very much. mr. lincoln wood, what type to make sure communities are not left behind in the electrification and the other as a follow-up, how can communities work best with their utility partners to educate customers about charging during drop off-- during off peak hours and charging opportunities. >> thank you, you may have seen that edison electric institute with the highway coalition that's a group of across and think of it as the ev brain trust, trying to figure out how we roll out chargeable infrastructure across the u.s. i think that's a good first step. best practice is always to involve utility early and often and utilities, since we have good relationships with their communities, across the service territory and so we have relationships with dealers and with local governments and others to help communicate the benefits of electric vehicles as well as other electric technologies and those are ongoing and open to more engagement. i think a meeting just like this one of all stakeholders is a great first step. >> thank you so much and my time is expiring, so i yield back. thank you. >> thank you. the yeah from pennsylvania, our distinguished ranking member thompson is recognized for five minutes. >> chairman, thank you very much. thanks again to all the witnesses for your testimony. very informative. my first question is for mr. mills. mr. mills, as you mentioned in your testimony. it seems like our analysis of ev supply chains and environmental footprint is often incomplete. why is it so hard to account for the activities when measuring the greenness of activity and why does an accurate accounting matter? >> well, thank you, ranking member. the greenness is determined entirely-- by that carbon emissions. where and how they're processed and as a consequence, we are talking about a vast global industry, thousands of businesses around the world and not in the united states and it's to track down one for private industry and frankly, a lot of secret. we'll call them, not secret illegal, just secret transactions that go on. it matters because the data shows and the research shows that the total emissions from access to minerals and producing materials can easily equal all of the savings from not using the gasoline, from not burning the gasoline. the idea that we're dealing with zero emissions is flat wrong. the only question, how much are they reduced and even volvo and volkswagen issued showing that the emissions reductions based on assumptions about the supply chain are rather modest, very small and they're worrying people to be careful about these assumptions. >> i want to follow up with a study i know you're familiar with, the rule of critical merits-- examines the mining patterns of minerals to electrification. how were predictions made by iea for equality and resource command and carbon accounting and with the new calculus changed the case for ev's, whether in rural america or elsewhere. >> that's a very good question, mr. congressman. the fact is, the ida pointed out and some other analysts, as you increase the demand for minerals, cooper, nickel, you have to change, as a technical way of talking about less copper as percentage and did he go up more rock. as they pointed out the expectations is that the carbon emissions, accessing lithium will increase several hundred percent. as we chase more and more lithium to put into lithium batteries, the emissions from producing the lithium are rising in the future as we choice more minerals, not going down. and this is an indisputable sort of gio physical fact that no one, bizarry will look at carbon emissions from making batteries. >> very good. my next question for mr. walter and having a fellow alumni testifying today and congratulations on your career. i want to thank you for your testimony and you closed your written testimony, any alternative including electricity should be offered in an open competitive market that gives american consumers the fullest economic benefits or rebust competition. this has worked well for consumers for nearly 100 years with liquid fuels because the markets had a business case to invest to meet consumer needs end quote. why is it so important that any new motor vehicle fuel and indeed, any engine technology was subject to pressures of an open and competitive market. >> thank you, ranking member thompson. an open market provides the lowest cost to consumers. if you find markets operate with opaqueness, it's typically for higher costs for consumers across the board and the traditional fuel market today is an open, highly competitive marketplace with three competing factors, not only from the sale at retail for physical fuels, but also at some various geographic pockets, there's high competition among wholesalers of traditional fuels. in today's world, there's a tremendous amount of opaqueness to surrounds around ev charging costs and some will highlight like mr. wood highlighted that he paid zero for charging, and first, i just want to say thank you to lincoln for stopping in on his path, but i mean, that cost in the future will be higher for ev vehicles and i think a lot of people today are not-- >> gentleman's time has expired. the witness may provide an answer in writing. thank you. and now, the gentleman from illinois, mr. rush, is recognized for five minutes. >> i certainly want to thank you, mr. chairman, for holding this important hearing, and i really want to know that i sincerely appreciate your kind remarks you had for me in the beginning of the hearing. as the chairman of the energy and commerce committee, subcommittee for energy, i have been proud to champion electric vehicles infrastructure, specifically infrastructure for urban and rural underserved areas. i was proud, mr. chairman, to negotiate provisions to advance electric vehicle infrastructure and adoption, which was ultimately in the past of the build back better act and i'm very, very hopeful and optimistic that these provisions will be signed into law soon. mr. strickland, so good to see you again, and once again, i just want to thank you so much for your sincere and your heartfelt remarks. i'm so proud of you, for all of your accomplishments over your relatively young years. and you make my heart glad and warm just to see you and knowing that you are such an amazing individual and amazing success. i have few questions for you. much of my professional career fighting for the health and the wealth of black and brown americans. and you know, this report, you live in areas with higher levels of emissions and i'm absolutely worried that once again the needs of these same communities will be overlooked in favor of catering toward a more affluent white consumer base. what policy can the federal government implement toen sure that minority consumers are incentivized to purchase electric vehicles? >> and what plans are on the horizon to ensure the-- will also meet in disadvantaged communities? >> mr. rush, i know your passion for the subject and in our conversations so long ago, you know my passion for the same subjects caused a number of things to impact our community. i think foundationally we need money for the iha to support all infrastructure and investment, charging investment and providing consumer demand. general motors is committed to having affordable vehicles in our chain in addition to the chevy volt our first and most successful fully affordable long range vehicle and we announced the chevrolet equinox which will be a $30,000 vehicle intercruised into the market in a couple of years. and i want to talk about gm has made, $25 million for equity issues and distribution of charging stations for poor communities to make sure that we leave no one behind in addition to the $10 million that we've invested in racial justice equity fund to help close gaps addressing communities that are adversely impacted by climate change. in addition to supporting the about 57 u.s.-based nonprofits toward that goal. we made to make that investment because it helps communities and our communities and general motors has an immense focus on making sure that diversity and equity issues are full and foremost made available to every community, rural, urban, you know, black and brown. we want to make sure that everybody's along for this ride and nobody gets left behind. >> i believe in you. i believe in you, man. mr. nasser, what percent of electric vehicles are currently being manufactured by youn workers? >> i don't know the exact percentage, but i can tell you in addition to, you know, the many models we were talking about, you know, by mr. strickland, ford and-- ments unfortunately, the gentleman's too time has expired and we have many who want to question the witness is. you may provide the answer in writing. and now the gentleman from georgia, mr. allen, you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman and thank you, i think this has been very informative. but i am a little troubled by the fact that we're sitting here talking about things in the future and what it looks like. let me tell you what's going on on main street right now. how many of my colleagues have been into a grocery store in the last two or three days here in washington d.c.? i mean, the shelves are empty. i mean, this is a -- i mean, this is a real problem. you know, when you talk about energy policy we-- you know, over the holidays, we get together with family, of considers, a lot of questions, where is this thing going. and frankly, i said, you know, based on the fact that when you pull into a service station today you don't know if that service station-- it's the energy policy of this administration is so incompetent you don't know if this service station has any gasoline to put in your automobile. i mean, we've all seen it. we've seen the plastic covers over the dispensers, so i said, you know, we probably all need to have at least one of our automobiles electric do ensure that we can get from point a to point b. i mean, this is main street, folks. the other thing i mentioned to my friend from general motors, mr. strickland, we've got a three-generation cadillac dealer in my hometown of augusta georgia. cadillac just came to them and said, you're going all electric. and this is what you're going to have to invest or we're going to buy you out. they ran the numbers and there was no way economically they could do that. i understand there's over 400 cadillac dealers across this nation that have closed because of this policy general motors corporation. you know, just in my community, that's 32 very high paying jobs gone. this is what's going on in main street and here we are talking about the future. so mr. mills, my first question is this, you know, this new religion of climate change, if we do everything that the biden administration says we need to do to fix this, how much are we going to lower the temperature of this planet? does anybody have any idea? >> well, congressman i would just say that based on the published data, what we do know is that the united states dramatically continues to reduce the emissions and world emissions, they're going to continue to rise because of what's going on in china, india and the rest of the asian countries and africa and that's just the iea and ipc forecast so we know that's actually happening on main streets all over the world. emissions are going up, not down. and that will happen without regard to what the united states does frankly. even if we improverished ourselves by not existing there would be rising carbon emissions. essentially no measurable impact on the forecast temperature. planet. >> so, what you're saying is we're putting our entire economy in jeopardy over this new religion and we have absolutely no idea of the consequences. >> well, we have -- we're obviously guessing about consequences about what the future will be with respect to the climate. the climate, the climate is obviously changing and it's indisputable that the climate is warmer and that the humans have something to do with it. two things, how much warmer or how much effect it has. and areas independent of climate, what can one do about energy, what is possible with batteries, for example, is anchored. the physical chemistry, the physics of batteries, it's not amenable to government policies. we know the limits, we know what batteries can and can't do. they can do a lot, but they aren't going to replace all combustion engines anytime in the foreseeable future. that is not a knock against gm, gm is making a great truck. i've owned lots of suburbans and i'm ready to buy an electric truck to commute in on the farm, but electric truck has a one ton battery. by definition that reduces by one ton what you could have done with an identical volk of-- >> well, i'm out of town -- i'm out of time and have to yield back, but the audacity to believe that we actually have control of this, you know, is mind-boggling to me and i thank you for-- the time of the gentleman expired. the gentle woman of illinois, the subcommittee of commodities and risk management is recognized now for five minutes. thank you, mr. scott and i want to thank our ranking member thompson for putting this together today. obviously the future of electric transportation is bright and certainly we appreciate all of the witnesses for their input today and especially how we can make sure that rural america is not left behind as we continue this conversation. you know, so let me look at it this way and i know we've talked about it a little bit, but obviously we have electric vehicles, major, as i see it, as many of us see it, a major positive step toward decarbonization in the transportation sector and really we have, as has been acknowledged, a little bit of time before would he get to the full, easy and ev and every vehicle off the lot is an electric vehicle. the climate is calling for us to bring down carbon emissions now. that's not something that we can just continue to put off and i appreciate our witnesses, a couple of whom mentioned a bill that we've written out of my office the next generation fuels act, really happy that we have bipartisan support for that, so, thank you for our republicans and democrats who have signed onto this. and briefly, this is a bill that has support of many of our witnesses today, that it would require automakers to optimize their vehicle's engines to run on high octane and low carbon fuel. like e-20 and e-30. there's been a recent analysis out of the university of illinois in my home state, university of illinois, chicago. says the next generation fuel that could reduce greenhouse gas by two billion metric tons by 2040 and that would save nearly 100 billion dollars in climate related property damages and public health related issues. this can be answered by mr. strickland. mr. cooper, mr. walter and if one has something to add after the next, please do. can you talk how a new era of low carbon, high octane liquid next generation fuels act would impact your businesses and your members, as we continue to transition to electric vehicles? and why don't we start with mr. strickland and then go to nasser, cooper, and walter, whatever you have to add on that, please? >> well, clearly before we get to our future in 2035, we're going to be installing internal combustion engines, we will be installing 30 to 40 million of those vehicles and the opportunity and ability to use lower carbon fuels such as higher octane is incredibly important. there's advantages there to get 3 to 9% better fuel efficiency with higher compression and higher octane fuels and biofuels and we believe in the pass zero is going to be inclusive of that particular pathway, we're looking forward working with you and the members on your important legislation. thank you very much. >> i thank you for the question. well, first of all, it's going to be very helpful for the agricultural implement sector. it's going to help increase demand for farming equipment so it will certainly be helpful and it will also be helpful in meeting the cafe standards, which, you know, we're supportive of the moderate standards that are forward and finalized by the administration with support from automakers. but, this will help comply with those standards. so, this is kind of an overlooked area with the fuel when it comes to, you know, how that could improve reduced carbon emissions and manufacturing employment, that's important. thank you. >> yes, please. >> yeah, thanks, congresswoman for the question. this is certainly a piece of legislation that we strongly support in the ethanol industry. we do think it marks a huge step towards decarbonizing our liquid fuel and are' right, it will take a long time to turn the fleet over. and we ought to do something in the interim and your bill would move us a long way down the road toward decarbonizing those fuels. not only is it requiring higher octane in our motor fuels, but it's requiring lower carbon as well and marrying those two aspects together and it so happens that ethanol is the highest octane and lowest carbon today. and we see it as a significant opportunity for our industry and frankly, a significant opportunity for consumers because it would make a meaningful dent in emissions from the transportation sector. >> all right, mr. walter, i would love to have your time, but i think we're out of it and we'll hear from you at another time. thank you very much, mr. chairman. >> thank you. and now we'd recognize the gentleman from south dakota, mr. johnson, for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and it's pretty clear to me that ev's will play a role, obviously, in the transportation sector of the future, but there are other technologies that have been proven ways to offset carbon or to minimize the carbon footprint and biofuels are a big one. and i'm not sure why we haven't had a hearing on biofuels and thank the chairman for mr. cooper because i think his testimony helps to round out the record a little bit and when i talk about proven technology, that's no joke, between 2008-2020, biofuels offset a billion tons of carbon. i would mention that attend, a billion metric tons of carbon that's worth noting. a question for mr. cooper, you talked about e-15 in your testimony. i'd like you to put more meat on that bone, if you will. what does the path look like for e-15 as well as for e-20 and higher blends for nonflex fuel vehicles? >> new for the question, congressman and i'm happy to answer it. we absolutely believe that e-15 is one of the best near term opportunities that we have for jump starting decarbonization. analysis shows that simply moving from the current gasoline would reduce by 20 million metric tons per year, a simple switch. and virtually every car on the road today already is legally approved to use e-15. we have a number of retailers offering the fuel look my friend scheetz who is also a witness today, is among the leaders in offering e-15 to consumers. so we see that as the next logical step in this transition, however, we have some key barriers in place that need to be resolved. the most prominent of those is this ridiculous volatility regulation that prevents retailers from offering e-15 during the summer months in about two-thirds of the country. we felt like we had that problem resolved when epa adopted regulations to fix it a few years ago. the refiners didn't like it, they sued epa, that regulation was recently overturned. the supreme court declined to review it where we have the summertime ban on e-15. that's got to be fixed and we know there's legislation in both chambers to rectify that situation and we strongly support that and there are other things administratively to to. >> and the vapor from e-15 is lower than e-10 so there's no technical reason that e-15 wouldn't be made available year round. quickly, because i have another line of questioning, it's not just about e-15, right? i mean, i do think we also want to think about, is the sweet spot for nonflex vehicles e-20 or some other blend, right? >> it absolutely is and that really gets to the next generation fuels act and the need for mid level blends. that's the sweet spot, the e-25, e-30 range is where et ethanol's low carbon attribute. if we have high-- >> mr. cooper, i've got to reclaim and i want a sense from mr. strickland. i'm from south dakota and i appreciate the incredible technological advance batteries have made, but of course all batteries substantial aunderperform in cold weather and i don't want anybody to think that south dakota is always a tundra. three of the seasons are wonderful, but winter is terrible, it might be 50 degrees there today, but last week there were a few days where it was 40 degrees below freezing. so mr. strickland, that is a real technical limitation to widespread ev use during the winter months. tell me how general motors views that? >> we don't actually long-term we do not see that as a long-term tactical barrier. we're working through and doing our testing in extreme climates. our battery chemistry address as numb number of things long-term and what we've seen in past years in terms of reduced performance, we recognize that as a company and our engineers are working to make sure we address that and i had a conversation with the congressman and you're right, south dakota isn't always-- >> and let's-- i am running out of time and mr. strickland, i want to learn more. >> the gentleman from arizona is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, chairman scott and ranking member thompson, appreciate the opportunity, very good meeting today. as excited as we should be by the increase in ev's, it's important to emphasize the importance of ev's in rural communities, as we've talked about today. like much of arizona district often times, discussions by the electric vehicles center around businesses in suburban and ex-urban settings and the move to clean energy vehicles can provide profound economic opportunity for rural communities and we're seeing the benefits in arizona. my district is the proud home to the manufacturing centers of two major clean energy startups. lucid motors, which began delivering electric vehicles to consumers in october, 2021, was built as a massive factory in southern arizona and plans on continuing investing in the community. the another clean energy evacuee start-up nicola, heavy duty trucks in coolidge, arizona and using hydrogen fuel sells and reducing emissions from the road and these two companies will bring much needed american made manufacturing to arizona and provide good paying jobs and sustainable economic growth for the region as well as the development of the electric grid and the other clean energy sources that will be filled throughout america and rural america. most recently congress passed the infrastructure investment and jobs act legislation that included 7.5 billion for electric vehicle charging. the text includes some of the language to help determine where the electric vehicle charging stations should be located and specifically ensuring that the needs of communities like native american communities and rural communities are incorporated. while the infrastructure investment act includes funds to modernize and upgrade transmission and other electrical grids, more needs to be done to ensure that these changing stations, particularly those in rural and tribal communities, have the power to meet their specific electric vehicle needs and the needs of our economy. mr. strickland. thank you so much for being here. what sorts of infrastructure is needed to ensure that rural and underserved communities like native american communities can purchase and effectively utilize ev's, not just in their day-to-day lives, but in their industries, in the ability to be able to have the economies that they need so dearly? >> well, representative the iig implementation is incredibly important to get those resources out to support charging stations, but also the build back better act which also includes the ev tax credit and the consumer side pull to make those vehicles affordable for frankly everybody in rural communities and other communities of color and including in native american communities is especially important. gm has made a commitment for the production and the sale of affordable electric vehicles, whether we talk about the bolt or the equinox, but foundationally speaking we need a commitment for federal, state and local to partner with all of us in terms of implementing infrastructure everywhere it's needed and getting that support. we're willing to make those investments in partnership with our 4,000 dealers and frankly, it's going to be making sure we get not only the iga and also build back better done which has the other consumer pulse and supports that we need make sure that electric vehicles are available to all. >> thank you, when i'm pulling my horse trailer or somebody is doing their rv for tourism across my districts and trucks are long hauling across the country, it's going to be critical that we understand what this grid is going to have to look like and what the charging stations are going to have to be and how this all works together. as of right now i don't know that. i think we are moving in a direction that is going to bring about tremendous amount of technological change to get us where we need to be, but we do have to be careful as we move forward and with that, mr. chairman, i yield back. >> thank you, mr. o'halloran, well stated. now the gentleman from indiana, mr. barrett, is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and i appreciate all the witnesses being here today to talk about this important issue. and as you well know, it's important to agriculture and in districts like i represent from indiana. and you know, we hear a lot about the vast decrease in the carbon output because of electric vehicles. but rarely about the total life cycle and the carbon footprint of these vehicles when we compare to combustion engines. so, our nations and our latest attempt to rise to the vehicle electrification often seems force given the viable and practical step of biofuel adoption. so, mr. cooper, how do the biofuels play into this transition man the broader decarbonization of america's transportation? and how does this carbon footprint compare and how does crop yield improvements and the conversion of conservation practices of farmers impact the carbon intensity of biofuels? mr. cooper? >> well, thank you for the question, congressman and we agree completely that the carbon footprint and the way it's measured matters very much to the decision making around where we go with the future of our transportation sector. the iea study mentioned earlier by the ranking member actually shows that, yeah, on average, when you consider the source of minerals and the source of electricity generation, electric vehicles are about 50% cleaner than a petroleum fueled internal combustion engine. that can range a lot from a 7% reduction to a 77% reduction. with biofuels, and corn ethanol, specifically, we're adding 50% reduction compared to gasoline and we have some member companies that are producing ethanol that's 70%. 75% better than gasoline. so, again, if the goal here is to reduce emissions from transportation sector, there's more than one way to do it. ethanol is here, it's available today. it's available now to immediately jump start decarbonization efforts and the first step is getting more ethanol into the blend. e-15, e-20, e-30. so, again, i just can't, you know, say enough about the importance about using as the same measuring stick when we look at the carbon footprint of the various fuels and vehicles. >> especially when you consider the tremendous impact that a sudden change could have on our agricultural industry. so, mr. mills, do you have any comments in this same regard? >> well, i think i'll just reinforce the fact that the ie a the estimated 50% reduction, counting the emissions from fabricating the battery chemicals and mining, but they point out that the trajectory for the future is for reductions in emissions to go down. that is the emissions from producing materials are rising, not declining, that sort of locked into the geophysics of materials. international clean car transportation council has looked at this fuel cycle issue, and looked at it from country to country and they find to the point that mr. cooper made that emissions reductions can range from as little as 7% to as much as 70%, but this is all based on today's practices. we're talking increasing demand for minerals and batteries by over a thousand percent. that will put so much pressure on the rural mining i'd be happy to predict-- not happy, but willing to predict that we're going to see a kind of roadblock to expanded battery production globally long before any of the aspirations of the level of ev penetration happens. that will lead to higher prices not just for batteries, but higher prices for all the commodities made from copper, nickel and cobalt, all the same minerals and serious inflationary pressure on the economy which is being underestimated and completely ignored. >> new very much. mr. walter, would you call to elaborate in terms of the company you work for, as well as the association you work for and how the biofuels impact your industry? >> yes, so the industry operates 120,000 locations offering motor fuels, but specifically, you know, the environmental savings have been highlighted by mr. cooper, but in terms of scheetz, since, you know, 2019, e-15 sales have grown 92% and since 2017, 300% and that's off the back that ethanol is procured cheaper than gasoline. >> the time gentleman has expired, but you may provide an answer in writing. >> mr. chair, i'll yield back. >> yes, sir. the gentleman from florida, mr. lawson, five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and to you and the ranking member, this is a great meeting that we're having today and also i would like to just give a shout out to congressman austin for winning the national championship. didn't want to talk about it last time. but this time around as proud alumnus of university of georgia, able to beat alabama. there's billions of dollars of invested by-- have been made in ev and the required infrastructure, the u.s. must invest in work force to meet the demand of he can -- electrifying the future. and what kinds of academic programs and training are necessary to prepare for future work force and how can the industry prepare with hbcu's to meet this demand? >> i would-- >> josh, go ahead, go ahead, josh. >> so well, first of all, we need to in general have more of a focus on, you know, trade schools and kind of, you know, jobs regarding manufacturing and really, you know, supporting those as a career, as a career option. as far as auto workers being able to work, existing auto workers on electric vehicles, that's something of major concern. where workers are used to transitioning to vehicle to vehicle to platform to platform. really, we need a lot more when it comes to encouraging people to work in manufacturing and making them good jobs really helps. thanks. >> anyone else on the panel? >> yes, sir, we at gm are definitely making that same investment in terms of training and protecting our work force. we have about 1.3 million, 1.4 million years of collective experience not only dealing with the entire vehicle that we have an essential work force and looking at our initiatives long-term for training, we are definitely having that same focus as josh mentioned in his response, and it's a partnership that's for us to be able to bring our work force along and make the opportunities available and just another note of personal privilege, go dawgs. i'm from atlanta. >> and when i ask the next question --. >> i have one more thing to add, if i may. >> go ahead. >> so some of the work that southern company has done, particularly with the university of georgia is developing a mobility certificate that will be housed in the college of engineering, but it's cross-functional with aspects of public policy from the business school, from public health, with the idea that electric transportation itself is a budding industry and it's growing and you may need to know aspects of it in other jobs that you get. so, you know, that's-- but also within conversations with the university of georgia and system, i tend to break this out in three buckets, the infrastructure itself and understanding how it needs to be installed, the vehicles and autonomy and what that means for the second piece and the third piece on the corporate side. for example, if you work in the complete electrification gasty for large package delivery company and still need to understand how electric vehicles work and particularly fleet vehicles. that's a big focus for us. >> and i know that this next question i'll try to get it in is that as we look across america and we see all of the hurricanes, the tornados and stuff that caused so much damage, and it's always sometime weeks and-- for electric utilities to get back up. what type of relationship would this have on vehicles, especially in rural areas, when the electrification is down and at the same time people won't have transportation if we have more electric vehicles and not using any fossil fuels for them to get around? has that been taken into consideration when you all are looking at getting more charging stations and so forth? look alt the recent tornado that we had and devastation it caused in kentucky and other place. >> yes, a great question and one being if the power is out, yes, electric vehicles at a bit of an advantage and gasoline will, too, pumps won't operate without electricity, but one frt main investments jobs act formula funding coming putting together a state-led plan and some states like florida have published a plan with hurricane evacuations and whatnot in that plan for electric vehicles more and more and electric vehicles and they're also doing that. >> thank you, the time of the gentleman expired. the gentleman from iowa. >> is recognized now for five minutes. >> thank you, chairman scott and ranking member thompson. you know, supporting innovation that would create jobs at home and lower our emissions and transportation sector is obviously all of our goal and in an effort to reach this vision many times we need to take however, i want everyone to remember and it's so critical that the consumer dictates the demand for vehicle purchases, not government. and i think so often we put that cart before the horse. electronic vehicles obviously represent potential opportunity, but we should not let biofuels, carbon capture and other technologies be swept under during that discussion. i believe that accurate information is always necessary, factual information to provide industry with the tools needed to innovate in this space it's one frt reason i introduced the cost act which would examine the cost of the white cycle of emissions of fully electrifying the federal fleet versus transitioning it to a flex fuel vehicle fleet. mr. mills, i appreciate your insight purchase challenges related to electric vehicles, carbon accounting. in your testimony that you noted there are no reporting mechanisms and to the transparency for which petroleum is refined and used. how may we establish reporting mechanisms or standards, leading to more accurate information and carbon emissions? >> thank you, that's the challenge. i think the model we have might be in the mineral space, you recall some years ago, concern about so-called conflict diamonds, knowing where diamonds came from and not from abusive labor practices. it's a very difficult issue because the industries, businesses and the people who are engaged in mining the minerals, virtually all the minerals, are not under jurisdiction of american firms, regulators. we should ask manufacturers to be more transparent of the supply chain. many are trying. let me give credit to companies like gm, mercedes benz and others, making the attempt to document the supply chain and work practices that are difficult. we have to demand more. the same thing applied to where it's produced. the labor to the point we've heard earlier, the labor and the mining and processing is all overseas. assembling electric cars are, nothing different than the combustion fuel, and making all others with overseas and exactly where we are for electric vehicles. >> thank you so much for that answer and i agree with you. my next question, many of the convenience stores in my districts serve populations of only a few hundred people. most communities, it's the main area, the one store they have and it's so important to me that these convenience stores continue their operations for years to come. mr. walter, do you have concerns for the viability of these local stores? smou can we ensure that these businesses continue to operate without undue burden? >> yeah, thank you for the question, congressman. i think the store industry as a whole wants a level playing field that's open and competitive. and as you know, we serve our-- many customers every single day, millions across the countries and what we really want is an open, level playing field with price discovery that is apparent across the board. as i mentioned earlier, the fuel market is highly competitive and today, the easy -- ev market or for charging is opaque. at the end. day we're here for our rural communities and we want to serve them and serve them with the lowest costs possible. >> thank you. and you're exactly right. i mean, every one of my communities is, the communities store is a vital economic engine for our main street. thank you for those things. as we continue to discuss investments in cleaner transportation we must avoid putting all of our eggs in one basket. as i said before this current administration put out a report projecting four out of every five vehicles for 2050 will still run on liquid fuels and taxes of liquid fuels are paramount. that's another discussion. ... ms. axne is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, chairman scott. thank you to all of our witness her for being here today in lending your expertise to another biofuels discussion. just wanted to correct the record. we did have a subcommittee hearing last november so we have been addressing biofuels and for me it's a key priority so glad we are here again. a little less than a year ago this committee held its first hearing of the new congress on the topic of climate change and the potentially devastating impact on agriculture and rural communities. from unpredictability of weather patterns to more powerful storms like we've seen an eye with the duration and floods et cetera of course many of our farmers are on the front lines did with the issues related to climate change. within the transportation sector which contributes the largest share of our nation's greenhouse gas emissions we have got a couple of the key to reduce those emissions. electric vehicles and biofuels. gosh darn it if i didn't just find out today the first electric vehicle was made by a des moines guy in iowa a long, long time ago, i did a little bit of history there, so we got some history and that that it wasn't aware of. but as new and promising technologies we know electric vehicles have received a heck of a lot of attention lately including significant funding in the bipartisan infrastructure law. so i'm looking forward to seeing how those investments build up necessary infrastructure for greater electric vehicle use benefiting both urban and rural communities. however, the dire need for carbon reduction can't wait and be achieved when we had electric vehicles alone as the only option and we can't wait for this to get to scale. we have got to capitalize on the carbon benefits possible today through use of biofuels. as was pointed out, americans will continue to consume hundreds of billions of gallons of liquid fuel for years to come here so if were taking the climate crisis seriously, we have to replace as much of those galante as possible of higher blends of biofuel. thankfully our farmers in biofuel producers are doing their jobs and providing millions of gallons of cleanburning biofuels. in fact, her members have committed to being net-zero carbon footprint by 2050 so this is exciting. so my first question goes to you, mr. cooper. as you noted in your testimony it's going to take some time, decades, for the vehicle fleet to convert to electric technology and some heavy-duty uses may never find an electric solution. so that's another reason look at biofuels. could you expand on how biofuels will be able to make significant contributions to sooner rather than later? >> am happy to have thanks for the question, congresswoman, and we agree completely. if the goal is decarbonization we have got to get started now. we cannot afford to wait decades for more electric vehicles to penetrate the light-duty vehicle fleet. we need to do things in order to transition a kickstart with biofuels and one of those is more infrastructure. we can't allow consumers to capture the full benefits of low carbon biofuels and less retailers offering those fuels and so we need to see more infrastructure place that would allow for dispensers and storage tanks and other equipments compatible with these fuels and that's why we strongly support your work to include some funding in the house passed build back better bill from biofuels infrastructure, nearly $1 billion. that's quite significant and would really help in this transition. but you're absolutely right, corn ethanol today offers a 50% greenhouse gas reduction. we have a lot of ethanol in the marketplace are, in fact, california resources board certified some ethanol is 70% better than gasoline and we're well on her way to net-zero emissions for corn ethanol. so that transition is well underway and we just need continued support to make sure that happens. >> thank you for that. speaking of continued support i want to move to another policy am working on. earlier this week the supreme court denied to review a district court decision last year that jeopardizes the ability for fuel retailers to provide year-round e15 for consumers. if we don't pass the bill along with angie cray, they year-round fuel choice act allowed the sale of year-round sale of the 15 what are the consequences both in terms of rural communities and carbon output? >> it would have significant impact. we've already noted that transitioning to e15 would reduce emissions by about 29 metric tons nationwide and we were to retailers as if they can't the fuel year-round the unlikely to offer it. it is a huge barrier that needs to be resolved. >> thank you. >> the time of the gentlelady has expired. of course, feel free to respond in writing. the gentleman from new york, mr. jacobs, is now recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. my question was for mr. strickland and mr. nassar on, there is issue that is been raised here in my community i represent the outskirts of buffalo, new york. we have in my district a ford stamping plant and just outside my district gm powertrain plant. between the two of them they employ what over 2000 people, very good-paying jobs, have been a staple of our industrial base for many times plus many, many suppliers. the old harrison radiator plant which is, also has about 1000 10 employees that supplies a lot of gm products. but in our area due to the fact i look across the river to canada, we have had a really robust and successful by national automotive manufacturing sector for years. nafta played a role in that. it was a very good part of the nafta even though it was in perfect trade deal. and both those plants rely very much on the proximity to canada. they stand and ship that up to oakfield up in ontario where the add to that and it comes back down and actually multiple trips back and forth in the production process. what i'm raising is a concern that is been highlighted in the build back better plan, build back better act, that would provide the 12,500 electric incentive credit in that it is only for american-made cars. there's a concern that this would be harmful to these manufacturers up here which rely so strong on a binational model. and there's also been concerns raised that this may be a violation of the new usmca, which i am very concerned by, because of the fact you are trying to remedy some of the problems we've had with canada not adhering to reducing the dairy terrorist better in the usmca. anyway, we also support green energy. we also support the movement to have added mix of electric cars but it's very important to do that in a way that is not harmful to our employers, employees and the significant employers have been really part of it. the automotive manufacturing fabric in this community for so long. if there's any comment on how we can do this to make sure that policies are not harmful to the employers, employees and employers which is a in a binational region. >> i'm happy for that question. a few things. first of all the provision you're talking about, it would be in five years, not allowing it for evs to get tax credits. we very much both agree that the supply chain work between canada and the u.s. in your region and other areas is really important to maintain. agree with you on that. i think the whole thing though is, first of all as we talked about evs, they are 4% of sales, 2% or less of the cars on the road. so i think we need to take, put it in perspective a little bit. second of all it's in five years. there is time, if there were to become law, to try to work on some of these trade issues. but i think the other thing that we need to look at is do we want to subsidize evs coming from china, from mexico, from all over the place with u.s. taxpayer dollars? our position at uaw is we don't think that's prudent. we think that we should focus on u.s. taxpayer dollars on promoting u.s. manufacturing. one last thing. the ev tax credit, there's an extra bonus for batteries made in the u.s. but besides that it's not a content related provision. so the supply chain should, we need to keep that in mind. we are analyzing it. thank you. >> okay. >> does the gentleman yield back? >> just to conclude, i just wanted to say i understand and agree completely about flooding from china of product. i would say i would differentiate a bit between canada and mexico part of usmca, and part of that agreement was to make sure the wages are -- >> the time of the gentleman has expired. the witness may respond in writing. thank you very much. and now i recognize the gentlewoman from washington, msr five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you to all of our witnesses. i listen carefully to all of your comments and it's a very interesting discussion. i'm really happy we are discussing electric vehicles. this topic has come up several times in recent weeks since i've been out and about in my district. the first discussion was a bit of an eye roll by farmer explaining that the economics of running a farm are so tight right now between labor and feeling squeezed by buyers, that the notion of investing in electric tractor or electric semi was not a realistic one. the second was a discussion with wheat farmers who told me economics, they generally by use trucks. they have their own semi and would be in no position to buy an electric semi. the third was interesting. it was actually a fruit farm in my district who has made the investment and ordered a tesla semi. he sees the country had in this direction. he made some calculations and determined he will save enough in diesel costs to make up some of the expense, and he also expects he will be able to do some -- back the truck right into the warehouse loading which will streamline the process and save a step, save time and money and you can't do that with a diesel truck. the last conversation was with puget sound energy. we were talking about what it takes to cite electric vehicles charging stations. everything from paying the rent, parking spaces to transmission lines and installing transformers and payment systems, and it's really complex and as one of our witnesses pointed out it's really expensive. mr. mills, you noted that. i would also like to acknowledge mr. mills comments about personal electric vehicles in rural american potential challenges during power outages. i would like to focus more on the electrification of semites in medium and heavy-duty trucks which make up just 5% of vehicles in the country but contribute 25% of vehicle greenhouse gas emissions and at least 70% of particular pollution. so this in rural americans were we get the most bang for the buck. mr. strickland and mr. wood i want to get to you about charging infrastructure. in the city of wenatchee in my district, apple capital of the world, they invested in an electric bus system with charging system which is amazing. as buses come by, drove over, charges for five minutes and giggling again and i would imagine that is something we will need for electric semites. mr. wood, given that i do have an opinion about -- electric semi -- smartest way to developing charging system for buses and semites and had the and medium duty trucks? >> thanks for the question. what we done at southern company especially to your question around electrification of medium and heavy-duty vehicles, the first thing we did was look at a footprint across georgia alabama and mississippi and backed out, for example, in the case of fleet electrification where our warehouses are and often in rural areas with access to interstates. but if you think of a warehouse in a condition and lighting for a small office space for example, but not for the amount of energy that 50 trucks show outside and charge, for example. our first actually was looking at her electric grid and sing we have capacity where we had maybe some constraints, menu to do some additional upgrading to figure out how we get to customers come step one. beyond that there are challenges at each area depending on, each depot depending on the amount of vehicle, with the end goals of the customer are. to my earlier comment of involving the chilly early that site think is the smartest way to start is make sure you engage the conversation upfront so utilities can respond and understand what the applications are in that particular area for the grid. the aunt that there are interesting technologies. we have the rate down in southwest georgia, executive director is investing in that exact thing. deathly a technology up-and-coming one more work is needed it's an interesting concept and i be happy to connect you with her if you would like. >> on the topic with a limited time, mr. strickland, i'm wondering since you're dealing with fleet electric vehicles with fedex for example, is her way to the same kind of charging infrastructure that would apply to suite delivery vehicles and trucks and semi some buses. [inaudible] >> our work on her commercial vehicle side think about how -- >> the time of the gentlelady has expired but please do respond in writing. and now the gentlelady from minnesota, ms. fischbach, is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chair. and mr. chairman, i do appreciate a lot of the discussion or the comments that a been made regarding the biofuels that i'm still not sure quite what to make about the hearing. the hearing comes after the majorities push through the partisan $2.000000000000 package that picks the winners in it is at the expense of my district farmers -- $2 $2 trillion. now we hear today and exploring whether this investment would work for rural america and despite my colleagues already have picked a side. judge i would like to insert for the record the article from wanda patchy, a farmer in southern minnesota about what an easy mandate would mean for their livelihood and of my state. >> without objection. >> thank you, mr. chair. i agree with mr. cooper that liquid fuels are still here to stay but because of that, biofuels will play an important role in reducing carbon emissions. unfortunately president biden's build back better act doesn't agree. providing more than 15 times the amount of ev incentives than for biofuels. even further, i also saw the report this point that president biden may be considering going back on their promise to producers in my district for annual biofuels volumes in fiscal year 2022. i can help but see a trend of what the future holds for the biofuels industry that is so important in my state of minnesota. and there have been some comments about the credits include in the build back better but i would like to ask mr. strickland and mr. laughridge about the recently passed build back better, which all of my colleagues on the other side voted for. it did provide several credit for the purchase of electric vehicles and plug-in or hybrid vehicles. are you aware of any similar credits for flex fuel vehicles that were included in the bbb that we passed recently? >> i am aware of the electric vehicle credit but i'm not closely tied to bbb. i get back to you on that but i'm not aware of it. >> thank you, congresswoman. i'm not strictly aware of exact credit, but i do know we considered everything should be a level playing field. to achieve that widespread ev adoption, we really need to be looking at how that affects everyone equally. so to me it goes to tax credits but there should be a local playing field. >> fifteen doesn't seem like a level playing field. mr. cooper can you respond to that same question? >> i'd be happy to, congresswoman, and again i'm going to sound like a broken record but if the goal is to reduce carbon emissions from transportation we ought not be picking technology winners and losers. we really should be incentivizing behavior to reduce emissions without regard to what fuels and vehicles are doing that. and then step back out of the way and let the market determine what the lowest cost most economically of reducing emissions is. we believe it is through flex fuel vehicles in the near term. when you put corn ethanol, , 85% ethanol blend into an ffd you're getting significant reduction greenhouse emissions. there was no incentive included in the build back better plan for flex fuel vehicles. we were optimistic when a bill was introduced in the senate last year by senators klobuchar and ernst that would've created a flex fuel vehicle credit. unfortunate that was not included in either the infrastructure plan or build back better. we are hoping that can be picked back up this year. >> mr. cooper, finally, i does have a few more seconds but are you aware of any statements or inclinations from the biden administration that they would support the same incentives that use higher blends of biofuel? >> i'm not aware of really the administration's position on ffv at this point. we they're also thinks epa can do through its fuel economy or access to my commission to help incentivize ffv production. that's led to e20 2 million we have on the road today was the epa and nhtsa standards. those credits are no longer available to automakers and so yes epa plays a role in this as well and would love to see those cafe credits restored for flex fuel vehicles. >> thank you mr. cooper. with that i yield back, mr. chair. >> the gentleman from georgia, mr. bishop, is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you very much, mr. cha. i want to certainly thank you for holding this hearing and for your leadership on these pivotal issues that are so timely. and i want to just thank you also for the breadth and the broad scope of the witnesses that are here to talk about it. there are definitely pros and cons on this issue and i think it's important for the committee to hear all sides of this because it is so, so very important. let me go to an area many of the questions that i had have been asked over the past couple of hours, but it want to deal with the utility company rate structure issue. because energy demand, let me direct this to mr. wood from the southern company. since energy demand is much lower at night, some of utility companies reduce their electricity rate at that time. but transmission to electric vehicles will lead to significant long-term increase in the demand for electricity. how do you anticipate that this load growth will impact the electricity rates? should rural customers, especially those who don't own electric vehicles, should they be concerned that negatively rates will go up higher, even though they are not utilizing the electric vehicle to the same extent? and does the southern company or do you think others similarly situated to the southern company, will support the creation of a a new rate strue such as real-time pricing or time of use rate to impact customers behavior? >> thank you, congressman, with a question. so georgia power actually already offers a time of use ev charging rate from 11 p.m. to 7 a.m. that's a whole house rate so it's not metered so you can theoretically wash your clothes and run your dishwasher at the same time. that's time of use rate so the rest of the time is offbeat except for two p.m. until 7 p.m. in the afternoon. similarly alabama power also offers a charging rate for residential and also for public fast charging, business electric vehicle rate that eliminates demand charges that will be helpful for the industry as we've had continued dialogue with them. those are happening already today's i guess in answer to your question, i don't look as a future issue. i think it is a today issued an achilles are already navigating through the especially this will mean adoption of electric vehicles. replay of time to have dialogue and to see what the impact will be but to date we haven't seen that. >> thank you very much for that. let me go to mr. walter regarding some of the fuel retailer incentives. i think you indicate in your testimony that one of the major factors deterring consumers some transition to electric vehicles is the concern about whether they will or will not be able to refuel. it seems people will continue to get their cars energy whether it's diesel, biofuel or electricity from refilling stations, and especially if they don't have access to a charging station at the residence. with fuel retailers being such an essential piece of the puzzle to increase the adoption of electric vehicles ask you if you can give us a sense of the size of the industry come how many charging stations your industry might have capacity to provide if the right incentives were there. could you just touch a little bit more on how we can incentivize the fuel retailer and the convenience stores to invest in new technology and how we ensure that those incentives are flowing to our rural communities? >> thank you, congressman, to as an agent for we have 150,000 constituents, , and 120,000 of them selling motor fuels today. i don't have the exact count of how many offer ev charges today but i can tell you at sheet specifically with 78 locations that offer ev charging which represents about 12% of her overall store portfolio -- sheetz. what we really need is a clear economics around what it takes to provide energy to consumers through their ability to charge and then to have a guaranteed rate of what they will charge a convenience store like ours. if you look across the platform for our industry there's widespread prices on the pylon that clearly tell you and state what the price of fuel is on any given day. that does not exist today for ev charging. and while we note that the growth -- >> the time of the gentleman has expired, unfortunately, but please respond in writing to mr. thank you. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> the gentlewoman from maine is recognized now for five minutes. >> thank you very much, mr. chair. thank you so much to all of our witnesses. you have been here with us for a long time and and i apprecie time you've taken with us and your ability to describe this from your perspective. i just want to say couple of things before ask my questions. i come from maine. i can fund of the most world districts even though we tend to think about world districts being somewhere else in the country. i represent about the farmers and fishermen there and i had many conversations with people who drive ford, juicy, chevrolet trucks who can wait till the opportunity to electric truck -- they can't wait to have these changes and opportunities and see some of the new trucks coming off the line of having all the power they need whether it's pulling a trigger of putting a big load on using it at a jobsite for a generator. we keep talking about these in a negative way, these people running in the opposite direction. i know there are affordably issues dynamo dino god we electricity comes from renewable fuel but is he going to be a great opportunity in rural america. i also know that to the extent people have the opportunity to put solar panels on their houses because of the reduce cost of solar power and the credit available, people are anxious to stop having to pay their utility bill and be able to park their truck in, use their solar power and power their trucks that way and the independent in that way. we keep talking about this in a negative light but i think it's important to think about the great opportunities this offers us come the opportunities for agricultural equipment as was discussed a little bit, precision agriculture. some of those opportunities and also even on the convenience store side. i was glad to hear mr. bishops questions and appreciate your response on those but, frankly, when you have to plug in your electric car at a convenience store around the road you do just that much more time to stop and come get some food, little shopping. i think it's a great market opportunity for them as well. i understand some of the challenges about understand what the pricing will be in getting some uniformity in what is a very new technology really of these plug-in stations. and i know they need to be, the need to be different standards but that's what we are making this now so there can be uniformity and availability and, frankly, i'm just very excited about what we have in front of us and really thank you all for lending your thoughts to that. mr. nassar, , yet spoken about this a little bit in your testimony you talked about the three-pronged approach to ensure competitiveness in electric vehicles and the infrastructure. you talked about the importance of the fact we've already passed a bipartisan if a structure built but also have in the build back better bill and why that will make a big difference. to my talking a little bit more about that? >> sure. the new law does have funds for infrastructure, some funding for ev infrastructure and also includes some plugs for helping through d.o.e. funds helping plants upgrade and change to be able to have more efficient products acyclic. but it didn't address anything about consumer incentives and consumer price, and that's going to be a big part of it. and also more needs to be done on what i would say is the supply-side pics of basically those things to really make sure that the battery production is here. we don't have all three prongs in play, to put it bluntly. >> great, thank you. and i appreciate that because we do want all of that, those jobs to be an american manufacturing capacity to be here. mr. strickland, thank you so much and we love seeing the beautiful pickup truck behind you. i hope that's on the road soon. you talked a little bit about our i i guess it was in your testimony, about gm being interested in leveraging some of the usda programs to support ev charging structure. i know there have been a question or two about that but giving specific programs in mind and can you talk about how that might help to fill the gaps that is some of the work of our committee? >> i can definitely reach out to my people but i know -- [inaudible] it helps leveraging the more important i think having the advice and expertise of usda and dealing with rural communities and be able to help identify parts and places where we can think about industry is very important but will sorely get back to invite in terms of where we see this opportunities with the usda. >> perfect timing. i yield back the rest of my time as i'm out of time. thank you, mr. chair. >> the gentleman from california, mr. carbajal, is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i appreciate the opportunity and thank you to all the witnesses here today. climate change certainly poses an immense threat and we must invest in renewable infrastructure to obvious a protector plan for electric vehicles are an important part in modernizing our transportation sector. evs not only does this transformation benefit the environment but also significant benefits the economy. mr. wood, the bipartisan infrastructure law will find 500,000 ev charging stations across the country. can you discuss how ev, infrastructural translate into jobs and workforce development at different parts of the country? >> thank you for the question. so as we think about supply chain around ev infrastructure and even the vehicles themselves of the compose it takes to make each of the pieces of infrastructure or the vehicle, if you think about manufacturing plants there's a supply chain the rolls into each of those and there is distributed supply chain beyond the product that you see. so as we gained momentum, as roll out more infrastructure, as we have a demand for increased charging for increased materials like wire conduit, that will supply the electricity, for example, for vehicles that need use that charging, it will be of rising tide lifts all boats but it's also about workforce know, training people understand this technology, how it works. for example, battery chemistry with the next iteration of batteries look like. all of that will come as the charging gets rolled out and demand increases. >> thank you. in addition to the possibilities that ev presents renewable natural gas, is a natural occurring bio methane that can be captured in production at dairy, poultry operations and hog farms. when cleanup, it can be put into existing natural gas if her second use as as a carbon nel or carbon negative transportation fuel. in 2020 california's -- reduced rmg. where carbon negative capturing rmg can and address a couplf different issues. it captures harmful emissions from funds for providing a clean transportation fuel available to rural america today. what role do you see for rmg and providing clean fuels to rural america? >> so as part of my work with the georgia clean cities we talk a lot about carbon intensity and the alternatives. such a thing about it like a vacation and just i know that's our focus is today, sometimes there's not an electric alternate for a duty cycle or piece of equipment. in that case sometimes it may make more sense to convert from gasoline or diesel to natural gas for example. there's equipment available. that's a switch that can make today versus waiting for a new piece of equipment for five years that i think there's a role for rng to play. several i can be played today as we move forward with public policy goal in mind of reducing carbon emissions. >> thank you very much. madam chair, i yield back. mr. chair, i yield back. >> thank you. the gentlelady from illinois, ms. miller, is recognized for five minutes. ms. miller, you may need to unmute. >> thank you. thank you, mr. chairman, and witnesses. i cannot -- that forces american taxes to pay for electric vehicle infrastructure at a time when our farm sounds fame struggling to keep their homes. high electricity demands bring high stress on a power grid as californians and texans have found that with rolling blackouts and cause to reduce energy consumption. i cannot embrace this agenda which is a taxpayer-funded handouts to china. a typical electric vehicle need six times the mineral inputs as manufacturing and conventional car according to the international energy agency. the vast majority of these minerals are mined in china with very low standards in labor and environmental protections. the biden administration environmental agenda also ignores the global context of climate change. china emits twice as much as america. it is unfair to force american taxpayers to subsidize electric vehicle infrastructure, for what seems to be president biden's top two priorities, punishing rural america and helping china. we have to hold china accountable which is why i'm introducing my bill today to ban chinese purchases of our agricultural land. with that either do question for mr. mills. mr. mills, rare earth elements are considered critical to modern batteries and electronics. yet united states is almost wholly depend on china to supply our factories with these critical minerals. just a few years ago there was a real palatable concern that china would use its control of rare earth element production to further its geopolitical and by restricting the export to the united states. if that happens how would we build battery solar cells with turbines and all the other tools of modern life? so is rare earth mining more environmentally damaging than mining for other materials? >> does the gentlelady yield back? >> did he hear my question? maybe i ran into it too fast. >> mr. mills, you may want to unmute. >> is there anybody on the panel that might want to address it? well, thank you, gentlelady come here two minutes remaining. do you you back? >> does mr. mills not want to answer that question? >> we have not been able to locate him on the panel. >> oh, okay. then i yield back, thank you. >> thank you. and now we recognize the gentleman from california, mr. costa come is also the chairman of the subcommittee on livestock and for agriculture, for five minutes. >> thank you very much, mr. chag that we're having today and the adversative witnesses. i must once again congratulate you on national championship. it certainly has been a good year for georgia, not only with -- also with the bulldogs pics brexiteer bulldogs at in california at fresno state unhappy to cheer you folks on. i want to try to focus on the big picture here. mr. strickland, i was in a meeting with one of your primary competitors, another major automotive company there in detroit. set its goals for 2030 of over the majority of their automotive production would be electrical vehicles. what similar goals do you have beyond the bold and some of the other vehicles you're producing now? as general motors looks at the next ten, 15 years of automobile production. >> yes, sir. we have 20 electric vehicles across our entire sales line and will be introducing -- fully electrified by 2035 it were planning on selling 1 million electric vehicles by 2025. so we are very much fully invested. we are very much all in and we align with the -- >> i think it support to put that in perspective because general motors, ford motor company, major automotive manufacturers not only here but in europe all have similar targeted goals it appears to me as we trying to look at how we go through this transition. mr. cooper, because we are talking here about electric vehicles, but you talk in a comment early or about neutral as it relates to reducing carbon footprints in terms of choice of fuels. would you care to comment in terms of what role hydrogen and there was some mention earlier from my colleague from california about what we're doing in derry. we have turnkey operation on methane production today that are very successful economically, but what role of the fuels may have as we make this transition. >> absolutely, and thank you for the question, congressman, and we think right there in california you have an excellent example of what can happen when you put a policy, policy signal out to reduce carbon emissions and with a low carbon fuel standard in california the response you've seen from the marketplace is a combination of low carbon fuels that have increased their presence in the market to achieve the reduction goals of the program. the same thing could happen at the national level with a similar type program. and you're right renewable natural gas is make a significant contribution to meeting the objectives in california, not only as a transportation fuel itself as was mentioned earlier but also as a process fuel to make ethanol and other biofuels. there are some ethanol plants in california that have invested in taking, capturing methane from dairies, digesting and using it to replace natural gas as -- >> what do you think about hydrogen? >> we think hydrogen is another phenomenal opportunity for ethanol. ethanol is a hydrogen rich molecule. it's an excellent carrier of hydrogen and rethink tol could be a major source for fuel-cell electric vehicles further down the road. >> my time is running out here but it want to get a perspective here with the $7.5 billion for the bipartisan infrastructure package on ev charging stations. and we look at rural america that i have grown up on and i think back to our families forming operation. when we talk about ev connections, members of my family and friends already have ev vehicles. they charge them at home. our farming operation, we had two gas pumps, regular and premium, and we had a separate diesel tank. for a lot of our ag produces in my area they will set up their own separate refueling efforts for tractors and for other equipments that they're going to need to use. my time is running out but i would like to see how we break this down in terms of american agriculture doing its part. >> gentleman's time has expired. and now i recognize the gentlelady from louisiana, ms. letlow, for five minutes. >> thank you, chairman scott, thank you to all the witnesses for your participation today and discussing the implications of electric vehicle investment on agriculture and rural america. the fifth district of louisiana is the definition of rural america. agriculture and small businesses play an essential role in the local economies this or the residence of our rural communities. in addition the oil and natural gas industries is one of the leading industries in the state of louisiana in terms of economic impact, taxes paid and people employed. according to a 2020 report the industry provided 73 billion to the state gdp and supported 249,800 jobs in 2019. however, the louisiana department of natural resources recently estimated that the state lost 12,256 oil and gas industry jobs between march 1, 2020, and november 15, 2021. november 15, 2021. in my opinion that is a substantial reduction to a sector that is so vital to our state economy. mr. mills, as member of the house agriculture community would often the public that the united states is the global leader in producing affordable and abundant food, fiber and energy in a sustainable way. how could this administrations top-down approach on policies up in our manufacturing energy and agriculture industries? specifically, do you see premature investment in electric vehicles increasing costs and impacting jobs for our rural residents and lower income households? >> thank you, congresswoman. i think the problem is we have what amounts to almost unserious examination of the whole fuel cycle. i sound like a broken record on this but america's mining industry is rural. america's oil and gas industry is world. its food industry is real. these are world industries. we have provided for several decades massive disincentives in the mining industry. so all the mining jobs, all the chemical processing jobs will be needed to make battery cells to assemble vehicles here are going to be overseas. they are already overseas. we'll increase the overseas. we are a net exporter of food as you know in america. also a net exporter of hydrocarbon fuels. so that goes away if we provide disincentives at this rate. it would be almost like this incentivizing the entire agricultural industry and providing incentives to bankers importing all our wheat and banding wheat production. this is the path we are on for evs. i think evs are great but does a phenomenal technology. gmo products are wonderful, ford's products available. they still have the function of a gasoline powered vehicle for most of the uses that are put to in rural america. it's a very odd asymmetry and lack of recognition of the profound advantage in, advantage and of other countries, industries over ours with these mandates that are being created here. >> thank you so much come mr. mills. mr. walter, one of the principals in your chest is to ensure fair treatment so all households are not forced to subsidize alternative energy users. can you expand on dispensable? who pays her charging stations in rural communities and why does it matter? >> in today's world, i mean, charging stations can be subsidize their utilities and the like. i mean, we in the convenience store industry we are really focus on pricing and products at a fair market price. we sell commodities across the board, and that's really come if i just may speak to e15 briefly. we have undercut our price the e15 versus 87 regular grade gasoline by 20-25 cents across the industry and we do so at a time while that brings on cost savings to the consumer. but in today's world ev charging per se is being subsidized at aa state level and a national level. we have not found ev charging implementation as an organization to be profitable at this time. and so really there is a lot work that needs to be done until you can find an adequate return on invested capital in the space. >> thank you so much to the witnesses. mr. . mr. chairman, i yield back. >> thank you. the gentlewoman from new hampshire, ms. kuster, is to recognize for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and thank you again for hosting this important hearing. the transportation sector is the number one source of carbon emissions in the united states,, and as we decarbonizing our electric grid transitioning to electric vehicles will help our country reduce carbon emissions and harmful pollutants and thereby save our planet. to support electric vehicles we need to build out a robust network of charging stations around the country, including in rural areas. these charge stations -- [inaudible] -- urban areas -- [inaudible] so people live there can experience the benefits of electric vehicles -- [inaudible] -- important for -- [inaudible] and visitors can feel confident spending the dog role to minister in short we must ensure rural americans have just as much incentives to buy evs as americans who live in cities and suburbs that one of the main challenges to building out public electric vehicle charging infrastructure our demand charging. demand charges are monthly fees. you pay in order to maintain the infrastructure needed for the power to reach your house or building, and these demand charges are one way for utilities to recoup the costs they incur to maintain an electric system necessary to meet peak demand. however, many utilities have yet to adjust electric rates to ensure that the man charges levied against electric vehicle charging infrastructure accurately reflects the costs chargers impose on the electric system. and this means electric vehicle charging service providers pay more for electricity than they should as a result, high costs must be the be passed along to consumers or eaten by -- [inaudible] operators -- [inaudible] -- perspective -- include electric vehicle charging infrastructure. can you explain to the committee how high demand charging -- [inaudible] especially in rural communities? >> ms. kuster, you may want to repeat the person who you are referring to. >> i'm sorry -- [inaudible] >> speaking -- my apologies but i'm having trouble with my connection. can you hear me, mr. chairman? >> yes. who did you direct your question to? >> mr. walter. >> mr. walter. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you, congresswoman. i mean, first and foremost americans are not going to put up with surprise fluctuations in the cost of energy at a a retl location like ourselves unless there's clear price discovery that exists. you know, essentially price gouging or peak demand charges could negatively affect the consumer in many ways and also potentially attract the authorities for passing on elevated cost. so we are really not in a position to be able to pass on direct costs to consumers in today's environment. and i would like harkening back to events what we have hurricanes whereby were not able to raise the price of retail fuel even though the physical product might be increasing at price in the physical markets. you know, there's many laws on state of emergency center put forth that prohibit us from doing so. and then one last thing, in terms of, you know, some of these environmental concerns around, you know, national disaster to our interests but of the first to come back online. we have backup generators in place with fuel to bring our the industry back if and when possible. >> thank you. ms. kuster? we hear ms. kuster is having difficulty, and so now we will hear from the gentleman from texas, mr. cloud, for five minutes. >> thank you, chairman. i appreciate it, and just one quick question. mr. nassar, you mentioned people should be free to choose to join a union, and i appreciate that. would you agree membership to union should not be mandated? >> no. no, i think if you're benefiting from the collective-bargaining contract you should be part of the organization, just like most other organizations. >> so when you said people should be free to choose, you didn't really mean people should be free to just? >> no, i did mean that but what i meant was in the beginning whether to decide whether joining a union or not your in 90% of -- captive audience meeting for employers meet daily, election workers about the fact that all the dangers -- >> it's a yes or no question that i've got a lot of ground to cover. due to how much the price of automobiles has gone up in the last year? >> i don't know precisely. >> is about 11% for new cars, 38 for used cars. food has gone up about 6% as the official data. when i talk to people they are say it is 30 or 40% what they're experiencing at the grocery store. energy costs have gone up 30%, and, frankly, i'm a techie kind of guy. i appreciate the discussion on electric cars but the discussion seems a little bit like we're putting the cart before the horse, to use and agricultural reference for the moment that we are in. just to kind of bring this discussion into little bit of context i want to redo this from the 2005 director of national of national intelligence published a report, at a said this. in terms of size, speed and direction of flow, the transfer of global wealth and economic power now underway roughly from west to east is without precedent in modern history. this shift to rise from two source of the first of all increases from oil and 20 crisis generated windfall profits for the gulf states in russia. second, lower costs cost h government policies have shifted to manufacturing and some services to asia. and so right now we're in an unprecedented shift where everything that the american worker is working for has been shifting overseas in terms of economic influence and in terms of wealth and prosperity, and were having this discussion. it's notable that when we have produced energy exports are in the united united statese is other nations going green. what we see them doing is buying oil and gas for people who produce at much less responsibility, responsibly. and so one thing you mitchard was china as head of us in electric vehicle technology and that we're not can be able to export our weight, sort of not going to be able to import our way out of it as well when it comes to us being reliant on their rare earth minerals. they're also ahead ahead of us in hypersonic missiles at the moment. they are also ahead of us when it comes to reducing coal, so a lot of what we are talking a has to with us being reliant on china more meanwhile, they are producing more oil coal plants each and every year to make us have to meet the stated goals of the policy we're talking about today. and i also find it interesting right now of california is asking people not to charge your electric cars just to keep up with the electric shortage. meanwhile we are taught about putting much more attacks on that. couple more points. i would point out that we used to produce ag products emission free. if the tech told we brought to scale with each successive generation that is allowed us to come to this point in history where for the first time actually producing more food than the world needs. now we have some infrastructure issues in getting that through to where it needs to go. obviously, geopolitical barriers and such, but it's the technology is been brought to bear that is helping us meet the needs and to bring food to an affordable level. right now we see such a demand on the american household right now, and then what's proposed right now is 1200 -- 12,005 and does credit for electric cars so we're saying we will take the american people so that we can give it back to them after a modest federal bureaucracy handling fee to purchase electric vehicles. .. trying to get us to buy into it. mister mills >> the gentlemen's time has expired . however please, you can respond . and now we recognize the gentle lady from florida. recognized for five minutes. >> thank you chairman scott, ranking member thompson and first i'd like to associate myself with the comments and remarks from my, colleague representative cloud as well as representative alan. we're dealing with every serious supply chain crises all across the country and representative alan hit the nail on the head earlier talking about how here in washington dc we have empty grocery store shelves and while this is an important topic i feel there are far more pressing items in the face of what we are experiencing with historic record-breaking inflation. but also brought into it i know several of these topics have already been covered. i'm going to directed to mister mills to bring it back to the former farm for a minute. our farm equipment needs to function in all weather conditions which can be a challenge in florida climate . ev batteries experience difficulties in extreme cold and heat, drastically reducing range and hazards in floodwaters. florida on average is 66 inches of rain a year and that's without a hurricane which we know we are prone to . we're seeing ev vehicles such as transit buses rely on auxiliary power systems. so mister mills, rather than holding a battery works in warm or cold temperatures or relying on auxiliary systems doesn't it make sense or more sense to explore other forms of energy like the capture of farm emissions and use them in renewable gas powered vehicles? >> congressman, thank you and i think the short answer is yes . let me elaborate by saying that their waxing optimistic about the progress we made as these problems with batteries. i was the interim ceo of a large battery factory where the technology isgrowing. our of the point i made in my original text, it's a real challenge for big vehicles . the time it takes to charge it is just a supercharger, that's about $50,000 each, more than double the cost of gasoline. those are good enough for charging quickly or did your size combine. it would be a $100,000 cost for a charger to charge these multi-megawatt level systems. so it's fundamentally i hate to use the word. convenience is more than convenience when it comes to rural america. it's anoperational lifestyle. these are nontrivial barriers and it would take a long time and cost a lot of money . >> i appreciate you mentioned in your experience in dealing with lithium batteries we take a little bit more of a broader geostrategic look at things . this all relies heavily on foreign suppliers to make its initiative work. so we know in the united states especially under this administration mining has become extraordinarily overregulated industry and its created some very tough situations for full as we tried to reassert our independence on multiple fronts. especially in places with lax regulation like china for example. that can cause severe environmental degradation and i would argue that no one does this better or more efficiently than the united states yet it seems we are exporting our dirty work to places like china in the name of green energy. would you agree? >> that's exactly what we're doing. where exporting carbon dioxide emissions and exporting the revenue and where subject to the whims of the commoditymarket prices from other players . 60 to 70 percent of the costs to make a battery for a car or truck is the cost of commodities. we don't control that because of foreign revenues and foreign politics frankly. >> thank you mister mills mister strickland i'm going to redirect to you very quickly . as a growing purchasers of many of these foreign commodities what steps can you take to ensure american buyers make it better here. environmental catastropheover there, what steps are you all taking ? >> we're working on a battery chemistry so we have 70 percent reduction incobalt . we are members of another element to make sure our supply chain safely aligns to access integrity. we are also working right now on a consultancy to be able to access lithium. we recognize the fact that we have to have great jobs here and make sure we are not dependent on theseforeign sources and we're working hard to achieve that goal . >> my time has expired. iyield back . >> thank you very much. now ladies and gentlemen, we are approaching the end of this fantastic hearing. let me just say how much we all appreciate that each of you have opened our eyes and our minds too much of what we were only dimly aware when it comes to this issue of making sure that we have electric vehicles for everyone. especially in our rural communities which have for so many situations then unfortunately left behind. we will not, we must not and we cannot do with them the way we've been doing in bringing rural broadband. but thank god we've got about $60 billion on the way to finally get rural broadband. but before i give my closing statements i'd like to recognize our ranking member for any comments he would like to make. >> thank you mister chairman, thank you to you for this hearing. i look forward to lots more hearings. on our side of the aislewe will clear our schedule for hearings . there's a little bit of frustration seeping through because of the supply chain issues, agriculture issues, oversight on the farm bill so i appreciate today we've really got to put our shoulder to the plow, we will describe it that way and get to work on centric issues. i appreciate the issue of this looking at the impact on rural america and the impact on agriculture. i think our witnesses. i thought we had great witnesses. very balanced and great experience that they've brought to the task. thanks to our members because participation is excellent and that's alwaysimportant . we need our farmteam to show up and they did today . this really was in the end a climate driven discussion because it's a climate driven issue and we all know that our goal should be in everything we do we work to decrease co2 emissions . there is no industry that does that better anywhere in the world, certainly anywhere in this nation and agriculture, the us farmer is a climate champion.a climate hero. our farmers and ranchers and coursers. but we know that we can't have a healthier climate or healthier environment without a healthier economy. it's counterintuitive. it doesn't work. if you compromise one for the other it's going to fail and i think this electric vehicle , unilateral electric vehicle push, by doing that at the cost of everything else it compromises thatprinciple. today we heard a balanced discussion on the topic of electric vehicles . lots of questions have been raised and i think these questions and the information that was shared should instruct the federal government proceeding with any additional investments with electric vehicles. i think the american people deserve to have the answers to the questions that were raised here by some of our witnesses and certainly some of our members and i'm pleased with the information that was shed on the role of agriculture and specifically renewable fuels in making america a world leader in reducing reading house gases . i thought that was highly showcased and highlighted today and that's a story we need to brag about . top down washington dictates on consumers is a flawed strategy. science, technology and innovation is critical to addressing the challenges. i think all the challenges our nation is facing. today where in the context of transportation but we know science technology and innovation is critical for agriculture and that america is leading the world in reduction of greenhouse gases. so i do think in the end when this issue of electric vehicles, government can do what government can do and consumers will be the deciding factor and everyone will make their decisions in the end. thanks again for your decision and i yield back. >> i want to thank you ranking member for our bipartisanship work that we have done together. we have moved to make sure that we've got rural broadband now hoping to finally get into rural america. now we are dedicating our self to this. but first of all in my closing comments i want to just thank each of you. you have brought great wisdom to us and you can see from the interchange and the discussions and the caliber of questions that our committee members ask that we are determined to provide the necessary leadership in making sure that our rural communities, our agriculture industries have a seat at the table when it comes to this. billions and billions of dollars are being allocated for this effort. and you all with your excellent testimony have helped us to make sure that we will not and we cannot leave rural america behind here. we are committed to that. so to you mister david strickland, with the general motors company, thank you. to you mister lincoln would for electrocution policy, managing your georgia power company, thank you. and for you mister matthew lockridge, president and managing partner of the terry reed automotive group in cartersville georgia, on behalf of all of our national automobile dealers and to you mister trevor walther, vice president of petroleum supply management, the shakes company. on behalf of our national associations of convenience stores as you so eloquently mentioned, our convenience stores play a critical role in making sure we have the charging stations adequately and effectively placed in rural america as well as urban america. and to you mister jeff cooper, thank you. you offered some tremendous points that needed to be discussed. and we are going to take those into consideration. thank you so much. and to you. john nasher, legislator, director of our very great international union, the uaw. i say that with heartfelt feelings because i've worked closely with the uaw for 20 years in the georgia legislature as well as here in congress. and to you, mister mark mills . senior fellow of themanhattan institute . thank you and thank each of you for this extraordinary and very helpful hearing. thank you. and now i think i have a bit of housekeeping to take. under the rules of the committee, the record of today's hearing will remain open for 10 calendar days to receive additional information, supplementary written responses from our witnesses to any questions posed by a member. and of course i want to thank our staff. didn't they do a wonderful job in bringing together this excellent hearing? thank you staff and thank you who is the director of our staff . and now this hearing of this committee of agriculture is adjourned. >>. [inaudible] >> thank you scott. good to see you. >> i want to thank these klaus: we all know you are one of the most prominent and respected economists of your generation, but i learned and i should remind the audience, you are the first person actually to have led the council of economic advisors, the federal

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