>> antitrust published by our friends so senator klobuchar is a senior senator from minnesota in the first woman to be elected to the united states senate and also as she ran a formidable campaign as a candidate for president and the university of chicago law school important urgently needed book that shows how antitrust laws one save the country from the robber barons and will take and how more than 100 years later in the era of big tech the unprecedented corporate consolidation that can and must do it again. so thankfully as chair of the u.s. senate antitrust subcommittee we can do something about it. what makes antitrust is that she approaches the subject in the story of her own family experience with the antitrust policies have to do with lives when i knew that should be our guest tonight there's only one choice for the moderator of tonight's conversation. as president and ceo of the james l knight foundation, the publisher of the miami herald papers winning three pulitzer prizes for those excellence in journalism and like the senator is a concern for the consolidation of so much of culture. and as someone who is dedicated his life to civic discourse alberto's concern for how monopolies can l affect that discourse is a disconcerting and as troubling to him as it has been to the rest of us. it's an honor for me from books and books in the miami book fair to be presenting these to distinguish people for this very important discussion. throughout the broadcast you are invited to ask questions at the bottom of the screen you can order your copy or your ten copies of antitrust by pressing the green button we appreciate each and or every order from viewers everywhere and now without further do i would like to welcome our guest to the virtual stage. >> i am delighted to see you again. years ago when i testify before the senate subcommittee when john kerry was the chair of the subcommittee that you now chair, it was the rule of government to promote internet. and then to tell a story about your father being a reporter at the minneapolis star tribune which immediately made you my favorite senator. [laughter] and i was speaking about that when mitchell talked about this book which i actually have can you look at this? how does a us senator who was running for president have time to write this? your father jim klobuchar would be proud of the storyteller of that book. congratulations. it is very readable. >> thank you. thank you so much and so great to be on i'm such an admirer of yours and what you have done for news in miami with the paper and the foundation. it so important you are heading up with the work you have done with pbs and other news organizations. what drove me to write this was my own life working for monopoly basically that doing everything he could as the son of immigrants because unlike what happened to him to enter a two-year community college and then interviewing everyone from my ticket to ginger rogers and michael reagan and that happened because my grandpa had a job that also wanted a different life and wanted her family to detach from the monopoly powers. so right now what we see in america so used to be the robber barons and the sugar trust and we start to see that but then migrate concern for strong journalism in terms of paying and then the second reason i started three years ago before the presidential part my campaign did come to an abrupt and in february i was proud to endorse joe biden and i have a great husband has a monopoly of my affection and he wrote the footnotes someone said why are there so many footnotes in this book? [laughter] because i wanted to keep our marriage strong. [laughter] >> you have a wonderful way of talking about a time in us history with the use of antitrust to simply say these nine government actors and order to ensure we will have government intervene periodically. it's all about capitalism and the effective use of capitalism for the benefit of everybody but we will have a say in it. then comes along robert bork and ronald reagan and then we say nevermind. not so much community your employee. we will focus on the shareholder at maximizing wealth than this allows the incredible concentration and now we come to the critical part of your book i love that that we are so short on time can you give a nod to teddy roosevelt? >> you 20 about the inventor of the monopoly board? [laughter] >> okay. talk about monopoly that we have to make it real for those who are listening now and you do that better than anybody. >> that's why did the bug actually. what i point out if you are sick and tired of cable rates look at monopoly issues are why fair why airfare is expressive look at that situation if you are a farmer and say what is going on with fertilizer? someone looking for online travel deals it's only two companies that own over 90 percent and as i start off in the beginning of the book if you are someone a few years back with tens of thousands of parents every year now suddenly one year i get a call from the pharmacist of life-saving heart valve drug that was but one company then they bought the only other drug and the prices went from $85 to $1600 the ftc try to take it on that failed in court this means things because monopolies are messing around with people so that's why wrote the book and why it matters. i have tried my best but new ones as well just to make the point this is something that the real political issue and if you don't know a lot about it you need to learn about it because we need to get bills passed in congress and put pressure on people i cannot do it alone every time i try it is like a game of whack a mole so these tech companies and simply because they tried to pay for content and if they can walk from an entire country they can do damage in everyone's life. >> think of an ally from the other side of the aisle senator kennedy from louisiana. how did that come about? what are the dynamics of a liberal democrat and a very conservative republican those concern for the common good? >> he cares about newspapers and making sure they don't all go away to be controlled by whoever is providing our news we got together to work on this bill that the news organization should talk to each other as they negotiate for content i wish we did not have to do that but if we can't break up the tech company i want to get rid of them i just want to stop that exclusionary behavior when they are excluding others making it hard for others to do business. >> a lot of people will say 77 percent of americans the internet companies social media have too much power 77 percent but then on when the government should intervene. some say it focuses on privacy others say antitrust. some say take out that liability protection from section 230 and you are fine so why is antitrust the right way to go? >> you have to do a bunch of these things but you can make the argument for antitrust section 230 immunity and then to have limited carveouts on the immunity front and the insurrection but on the antitrust front i think it would help with everything how do we know whether or not instagram or what's at could build that those muscles but we don't because according to mark zuckerberg's own e-mails he said i would rather thrive in compete and then said they are in the brand and they could become disruptive to us that is a very disruptive definition of a monopoly and through capitalism much i truly believe in you cannot develop the bills and muscles if you have some kind of antitrust enforcement. you can do both you can allow capitalism without squelching new competitors and rules in place like privacy. >> you don't need to tell us that you can about your private conversations with mark zuckerberg but he would say look we are trying to work this through. you have no idea the volume that comes in the speed with which it comes in to invest in artificial intelligence to control this. we're doing the best anybody can and the worst that could happen is a government five years behind the times or five months behind the times try to tell us how to do our business. >> they have said trust us for a long time. i'm not telling them how to do their business i'm just putting some safeguards in place to ensure competitive behavior and look up the breakup of at&t with lower long-distance rates a former chairman actually said when it's done we are stronger company we are forced to compete and you have the incredible cell phone industry. that was the size of the gordon gecko briefcase that all happened because we unleash the forces of competition is nothing that i to get rid of them i think they are engaging in behavior that will crowd out the new developments that we need. and that what people did not understand which is very bipartisan with senator lee and myself how google and apple a number of companies like spotify apples competitor have to pay 30 percent of what comes in from the app store has to go to them. 30 percent. that's really high and they're not allowed to say you can get a better deal on the website. you can fix that not by a where getting rid of the apple app store but that some rules in place. >> that the technology in a way we have never seen in human history would suggest a greater and greater pressure with one form of social media to another and all of that favors big consolidation. if that technology is so strong and goes in that direction, what will antitrust policy do. >> it's not the will of technology but to allow new competitors to develop because we know from history that monopolies and then eventually prices go up more than that so what i believe we need to do is simply unleash to get more money to the agencies of a can enforce them. and when they update the filing fees there literally a shadow over former self you cannot expect that balance without having these agencies put together with duct tape and band-aids on the looking back at exclusionary conduct that created the empires to make sure that data collected on consolidation and industry. and it's not that radical and then the father of capitalism the founding fathers literally said okay with that army of monopolies because there is too much political clout. and then he spent a whole half hour on the show to show all the consolidation. and then to say if you want to die good luck to there's only three casket makers left in america. so while we're trying to do is not get rid of the companies sometimes we put conditions in place sometimes he will start collecting information to figure out there is competition we have been thwarted every step of the way for these justices and judges we estimate for capitalism to allow small business to flourish by enforcing antitrust laws except the last few decades. >> talk about the judiciary i didn't know adam smith was on facebook but now that i know i will have to friend him. [laughter] >> let's talk about the judiciary that we're doing nothing but interpreting the laws that have been passed by congress. are they not quick. >> they have greatly change the ways those laws have been interpreted over if you go back in time, those laws were used to stop monopolies breakup standard oil even to allow new companies to come into the market the way they have interpreted makes it really difficult. at one point in 115 year span it was zero four when he antitrust cases for the us supreme court that is a dampening effect they didn't have a lot of government intervention in the economy now it has the opposite effect republican after republican to decry those monopolies that would not have happened if these justices and others did not step in the children heartfelt drug is the best example by the senator in the entire ftc and ag's to say this is outrageous and then said we will let this go. that shouldn't happen. host: i guess have to be careful how i ask this question but as a member of a public company board to be advised by counsel and then asked whether in considering the proposal if we as a board could consider the communities where we use the product and the employees as well as the shareholder and the answer was delaware law which is the key interpreter of corporate law , that was clear you only consider the shareholder. how do you break that who is the milton friedman spent there is plenty of people. >> that justice breyer is a hero with antitrust merit garland to teach antitrust understands it he was chosen by president biden he had the audacity to bring up antitrust on the stage. the biden administration has put out of the box thinkers. all of these people have experiences that are very important i don't think we will change the core precedent soon enough to deal with a monopoly tech company. we need to build to that but also change the law which we have done many times i'm talking about changing who has the burden of the mega merger to show if something will hurt competition. i'm looking at how much are you have to do but simply our laws have to be as sophisticated as people that are messing around. i am so afraid every time we try to do this, someone under a theory comes out of the woodwork, it is when adam smith warned about that the monopolies that have so much power in congress. there is a very famous cartoon of the senate debating like the steel trust and railroad trust looking down telling them what to do. that's why wrote the book i need the public behind me to have some understanding. i know it's not an easy topic but i try to make it understandable to get people interested again. >> that is a terrific ending because we are getting to the point of including the audience with q&a. but the first part of the book is the most accessible is a history with lots of anecdotes of antitrust and then the change in the theory and then the last part of the book which i think is the hardest but what do we do now? if you have just three things i know there are twenties recommendations but let's say we don't get all 20. [laughter] give me three we have to have. >> i would put incredibly smart aggressive people at the agency and give them the funding they need to do their job but the president making that decision as well as congress getting the funding if you are serious to complain about a monopoly do that first. senator grassley does that i would change the standards that we have. >> i'm sorry. you froze for just a little bit part two. >> the agency to look at those mergers going forward with a stricter standard in place and then part three is looking back as the government did with the at&t empire with a monopoly and then over all the phone service across the country, looking back at what has happened where presidents of both parties allowed mergers to broker now we're in a situation you can't skip going forward you have to go back and put guardrails on. >> you mentioned twice the agency significantly reduced agency. is that something that came just with the trump administration or does that come from obama also? >> a series of years although president trump those that were working in those areas. commissioner simon taking on the case of facebook it was very significant i did not agree with everything like that marijuana merger. but there was a case against google. i wrote that part about the trunk one - - the trump administration with those career people trying to do their job but trump politicized so much so you lose that moment of that momentum to take on the monopolies. people who have worked with president obama said we should have done more than mergers were coming in the tech area and we should have done more spin to do years of underfunded agencies and then some good work i tried not to make this the focal point because you can have a lot of blame to go around which i clearly go through the history. and that includes fixing what we messed up in the past. >> what about the european union and the way they regulate these companies? is there a model we can copy? >> yes a woman who heads up you and competition policy i would rather call all of this competition policy and that is going on right now but what they are doing in europe it's easier for them to do things but they have taken a sign and a thoughtful way and when it comes to app stores we just had a hearing two weeks before when it happened with australia to leave the entire nation europe stood up and leaders in the us stood up so i see them coordinating to take this on. >> how much did the australian resolution have to do with microsoft. >> that was cool and they said but you have to realize google is at 90 percent that would've been very disruptive. i'm glad microsoft stood up it helped that the other thing that helped is the outcry of leaders in this area across the world. they thought they could mess around. but now in australia rupert murdoch was pushing it and then senator kennedy and i tried to get a coalition of newspapers to take this on sometimes you have strange bedfellows but i feel so strongly maybe because i'm the daughter of a journalist who has an incredible career still alive at age 93. >> i did not realize that. i'm sorry i was wrong. it's not what has been. he is proud. >> he did graduate from hospice in the last year. in any case i grew to admire not only his work but all journalist. it scared me to death we will lose investigative journalism. maybe not at "the new york times" and "washington post" but if you start losing and cities like miami or minneapolis and you don't have the coverage that they are just hanging in there and with those george floyd aid trials like derek chauvin and they have the unique ability to cover. >> . >> and the salem post. >> . >> do you know what you are showing you are true and time monopolist. >> as a fund-raising drive one of the first in the country my dad's last job when he was senior writing the weekly call on about the vikings game. >> if they don't understand it would allow organizations and companies to negotiate with the big guys as one but the aaron that is paid for even you go to the markets in florida to take on one and trillion two-dollar companies and with those monopolies and then for news content. one is china the other is trust institutions the internet companies will say if you start to break us up, how can we compete with a quarter of the world's population controlled from a central authority? >> that argument could been used all the time. right? but breaking up standard oil and at&t to make the competitor stronger. i should say we just cap one company new have one company and together we have two big monopolies. i don't buy that at all. yes you have to keep safety standards in place. yes we understand they have to charge for various things but not 30 percent to a competitor. not when you can't explain why huber - - uber driver has to play that spotify does not or match.com you can develop these products a better way don't tell me the way it is now because it is not to work with our allies to put standards in place when it comes to china whether trade negotiations are the biden administration or international antitrust enforcement. i understand that threat i don't think that answer is to become china. >> that was a very good answer. >> that it was a good answer. so in other words you try to regulate for the purpose of ensuring competition or for controlling the business. >> and a red state like florida we have to know republicans in the past from teddy roosevelt from the sherman act was a senator from ohio this is always been bipartisan that's why i'm glad those suits were started during the trump administration and the biden administration. >> let me ask the final question i went to go back to one of the surveys we did with gallup to say that so i see local news at the core of that local trust when i see those news deserts in many places throughout the country, they should be so lucky to have minneapolis and st. paul as three major outlets and so forth or miami and npr and pbs radio and all of that. there are lots of parts where it is no longer available. do you see that as a way back to trust and what do you see as the way back? i'm not arguing for the newspapers but i do feel informed citizenry is at the core of our democracy but i'm concerned specifically of the lack of trust of any institution accept the army and the library. to organizations americans seem to trust including federal government. >> truth matters and we saw that with the insurrection i was in the middle of it i know what happened that day and that reading things they ran on the internet but in the end i do get solace in the local news but local tv news whatever network it is so you want to have but if you ask if they trust the local anchor who goes on to tell them there is a fire or tornado or that the government is doing a good thing i think a lot of times they do trust local news. so building that local news to make sure it's happening to pay for content by doing anything we can that we had to get involved if we don't have a shared understanding of what's happening in this country we get what happens generate six at the capital. those that happened two weeks later we are the last three welcome down that mahogany box held by two girls to make sure we did our jobs. the fact that george bush was they are on the inaugural stage and then quail sitting next to barack obama and bill clinton and the leaders of congress are more sides. those are moments we cherish in a democracy. we should not forget that with all of the untruth out there. what bothered me as a member of the senate if you want to fix things ahead of time before they get to the insurrection we keep getting stopped at is inconsistent with what the american people want whether minority owned businesses or hispanic owned businesses, the ability to start up in hard to compete in the monopoly environment. whether people who want a better deal for online they say why is this big monopoly do something about it they have to keep pushing. change happens when people work at it and ask questions otherwise we would give up on our democracy. i'm not ready to do that. >> terrific asking questions to the electorate is the five freedoms of the first amendment. people talk about freedom of religion and freedom of the press and freedom of speech and assembly but also the right of redress that is such an amazing right. mitchell i think i am supposed to say come back. somehow magically you come back. >> you are still muted. >> the first question from the audience i can see the questions mitchell. how can we get involved? >> i have a number of ideas they are. to at least get on the website for the open market to put our information in this all the time. second, ask your elected official what are you doing with antitrust? with the grassley bill with bipartisan support? how can you are not doing something about this exclusionary time? talk is not enough you need to pass something. make sure you buy local and support your local news and local small businesses that's important and a few of the ideas. >> that's one thing i want to explore with the senator. you have the marvelous from justice thurgood marshall that says antitrust laws and the sherman act in particular with the magna carta of free enterprise they are is important to the preservation of economic freedom with the protection of fundamental personal freedoms to guarantee each and every business no matter how small to assert with vigor and imagination and ingenuity whatever muscle it could muster that resonates with me as a small business person greatly. that's a 1972. when we go off the rails? where do we no longer think about how to preserve the right of small business to compete? with these gigantic monopolies putting small business out of business? >> there were lobbying interest and then second court lost the originalist intent i'm just not talking about adam smith but in to say yes it is about religious independence and liberty and with the tea company that east india tea company owned by the british. so you go to the history standing up on the side of small business. so much and also small business small business didn't like we were controlling all their needs. so that's positive so they are not just interested. and there are republicans like senator grassley and who are willing to talk and that is a business issue. and mark warner got on my bill and i work 14 years in the private sector. i truly believe in capitalism's and that's where we are headed right now. >> when you and i first met and the question that i addressed in the hearing is congress regulating content scares me but to regulate the process for a fair playing field is what i thank you are talking about seems reasonable. there's a great question as a millennial who has grown up they have access to so much of the data if antitrust laws are implemented how fast these can come into effect and those that have been working at least 20 years that i know of trying to make it so each own and control our personal data is that a possibility in your mind with the horse out of the barn on the personal data staff or can antitrust be a way to regain control of personal data? >> yes but we need privacy and rules of the road. we are top center you send an e-mail and then you mention the ceiling fan and you do a google search i have heard hilarious stories of their moms write about something and then they get all these ads about quilts so you have to put a price on that data so you should be able to opt out or have an even stronger stance to austin and those right now that are bipartisan you have to be notified so you know what happens so right now all the companies that lobby against the federal privacy law. but then the state started to act aggressively and 71 a federal privacy law that it has to be strong enough to mean something so then we get competitors like that what that or instagram but what the government can do is put safeguards in place for consumers to make that legal. >> so someone is asking about getting to a place if we get to a time if there's only one modality when it comes to the news. if you are limited to restrictions in the tv station. >> we've seen the monopolization we have cable issues and then issues of ownership and then the trump administration i thought was wrong on that front there is a section in the book about it. and then in terms of ownership. with boards of directors and airlines and in the professor of harvard who looked at all this. with the argument but then they have that competitor. it's not just end-user organizations. >> let me follow up on that. and the definition. >> and the markets have changed and how you define them what the market is. remember you are dealing with competing with these companies and many other areas. and with the media content producers. and that cries out for that sentiment in the book tour. >> i was struck how your husband propose to you. >> and then nonfiction i'll at the bookstore. >> i knew the owner, alan. >> and then nonfiction i'll. and was a huge fan of lincoln. and then calling for venues for our wedding and it is the weekend in between so when you call they say are you valentine's day? [laughter] >> . >> my niece is getting married in vermont the home of lincoln's oldest son in vermont. and they have a place there. the income disparity and monopoly. >> i would tie that into one of the questions i see here from susan on campaign financing. there is a section in the book called we the people and to talk about small businesses and when you have a monopoly and they have the skills in that area you cannot part again for good wages when there's only one good company. and then to have conspired to those set wages but there have been some major ones so they were successful. >> so the key here is not to look at this to the lens of the economic competition but worker competition and then to come up as the counterweight. but all of that with all of that the union movement and as i said before, monopolies are great having control over judges. and those pieces are outrageous. in the same thing sadly there is a lot of powers so that's why i recommended and then to do something about campaign finance so state and will be chairing a hearing on and on may 112 markup the bill. >> i want to pick up something alberto said. in the book for me why is an amazing history. and i learned so much year. and you can tell your husband believe it or not there are 100 pages of footnotes be make you did not read all of them. >> i read a lot of them. he went to the evelyn word system of reading. [laughter] >> that the senators part is 350 pages and the rest are footnotes. but as alberto says it is so lively and so well-written. the way you bring the personal into it at the beginning talking about what happened with that unfortunate situation in minneapolis and minnesota i cannot thank you enough for writing this and being here with us and for the american people. thank you very much you are remarkable as always. >> i thank you did great. >> but i'm still hearing echoes. >>

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