Its important for members of the Subcommittee And Congress to understand the status of efforts and the input from stakeholders. Its also important because knowing what faa is now will then forward at and should go in the future in terms of nextgen. So id like for us to discuss debate in part is where the fas in relation to the recommendations from the department of Transportation Inspector general report issued in march. The report found shortcomings in management, of nextgen programs and that the faas current estimate of Endstate Nextgen benefits will be about 100 billion which is 113 113 billion less than the 2007 estimate. So while estimate shows less benefit is important, and that the estimated 100 billion in benefit is to far exceed the total projected cost of nextgen through 2030 which is 36 billion. When comes to benefit to the Ig Report also found faa has not transparently stated Nextgen Benefits to date. As a result stakeholders to not have a clear view of how investments and modernization will translate to quantifiable benefits for operations. Lastly the as they continue to encounter delays implementing things like the performancebased navigation procedures, or pbms as we call them. The final Report Issued Recommendations at the is concurred with and is already begin implementing. The faa should publish metrics, measure performance, as they should develop a process whereby in a just a benefit projections and interim implementation and those who are incorporated prioritizing nextgen programs, and third faa should regularly update stakeholders and Provider Risk adjusted Nextgen Benefit projection. Sort of looking forward to hearing from the faa and other groups present Today To answer two basic questions. What about these Modernization Attempt is making use of airspace safer . And second what you faa, congress and stakeholders need to get full benefits of nextgen . Finally i want to ensure this continued collaboration between faa, stakeholders and workforce to implement these modernization efforts. I look forward to hearing from todays participants and with that i want to turn it over to ranking Member Garret graves for any opening remarks. Garrett . Thank you, mr. Chairman. Appreciate you having this relative today. I want to thank Chairman Defazio as well. Mr. Chairman, Nextgen Moz folks often say it dates back to seven but the reality is he goes all the way back to 2003. We spent some around 9 billion over that 18 year period, and as you note in your Opening Statement where we are today is certainly not anywhere close to where it was anticipated when this program began. While i dont often quote our distinguished full Committee Chairman i think he is referred this as never jet a few times, and, unfortunately, i think that hes right. Weve got to get this program back on track. The return on our investment has been incredibly unclear as numerous reports have indicated, im going to go through a few of those in just a minute. The faa has set expectations, theyve made promises and, unfortunately, those promises have not been delivered. It would be easy to sit here and exclusively blame the faa but the reality is that congress has some culpability as well in regard to their regular Funding Streams, in regard to Government Shutdowns and other challenges. Bottom line is i think Chairman Larsen and i share this, that weve got to get nextgen back on track. We got to have a clear understanding of the objectives and weve got to have, we got to ensure that we are implementing the best technology. Because it certainly has evolved an awful lot over the last 18 years in both the i. T. Space as well as in the aviation space. Both gao and the department of Transportation Inspector general have done numerous reports. Back in 2012 well before i came to congress that gao says that the three airtraffic control programs with the largest Cost Increases totaling more than 4 billion are key to Atc Modernization. The Inspector General in 2014 said underlying programmatic challenges such as the lack of an executable plan for coordinating multiple programs, and resolve complex technical and operational issues and ineffective collaboration with industry effectively plagued the program in 2016. The Inspector General said eight faas 15 ongoing major System Acquisition Experience to go to Cost Increase of 3. 8 billion beyond the the original estimate with delays ranging from seven to 174 months, and average delay of 51 months. Mr. Chairman, as you well know, no one would stand for this in the private sector, and weirdest Router Taxpayer dollars and we shouldnt stand for it as well. As the chairman noted in his Opening Statement, in march of this year, just a few months ago, the office of Inspector General said that faas most recent Business Case Model projects total Nextgen Benefits to effectively have a reduction of 100 billion over the original estimate. And yes, mr. Chairman, was correct in stating that it still does demonstrate a positive ct to benefit ratio at how in the world can we have a project to a program that has 100 billion reduction in benefits over the 18 year. Mac . Weve got come say to get weve got to get this back on track. Modernization are airtraffic Transportation System is vitally important but its also critical we get it right, we learn from the past missteps and mistakes so we dont repeat that moving forward. This was one of the reason for the main data reports so the Reauthorization Bill in 2018 and we are certainly waiting for that second report. The first in the submitted the annual report on the return on investment that id like the faa to update the subcommittee on the status of the second report that was actually due in april of 2019. The report is vitally important to inform the decisions by the faa and the congress in the coming years. To all participants i appreciate your joining the Discussion Today and look for to hearing how and best deliver this much needed and long promised benefits of the nextgen program. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Yield back. Thanks. I want to provide an opportunity for the chair of the full committee mr. Defazio. Pete . Thanks, mr. Chairman. Ill be very brief. One of my first hearings when they came to congress with Norm Panetta Panetta with the chair of the Aviation Subcommittee was about modernization of the Air Traffic Control system. I dont think we called it nextgen back then. We went out on a little trip later that year to see the airtraffic Controllers Workstation of the future being produced by lockheed martin. Of course that never happened, and here we are 30 years 35 years later, ive been a long time, in the the end is not yet in sight. We need to hone in on this. I have some very specific cost beneficial objectives and get them done. Thats it. Im looking forward to hearing from the panel. Thanks. Thank you could you clarify the end of your ginger, not anywhere in sight or the end of nextgen . Just curious. [laughing] what you would like your on the side of your idol, i wont say. Thats a different roundtable. Garrett, is sam on, do you know . I dont believe he is. Okay, thats great, thanks. Then well move on to the panel. Just a reminder for members, if you could use the Raise Hand Function to what we call on you, this is a roundtable so were just going to go alternating democratic member republican member, and itll just be in the order of as i see your hands, so not like to hearing. But we do have a great panel and im going to introduce them in order of how they will present. We will first year from the honorable eric saw skin is Inspector General from the dot. I see he is here. Then we will hear from Teri Bristol whose achieve Poverty Officer of the Air Traffic organization, or will be referred to as the atl. From the faa. And Pamela Whitley whos the assisted administrator for nextgen, they will divide their time. Then Russell Childs whos the chair of whats called Nextgen Advisory committee. Can follow up with Sharon Pinkerton new senior Vice President of lips that regular Sort Policy from airlines for america. Been Paul Rinaldi whos the president of the national Air Traffic Controllers association, or natca. And then follow that up with Captain Bob Fox him first Vice President of the Air Line Pilots Association, or alpa. The reason i am saying the full Names End in the acronyms is i will be referred to them by acronyms later on and i dont have to sort of quarter in the jar for acronyms anymore, sites on doing that. And then will open up for questions. So with that lets firsttier from mr. Soskin, the ig from the dot. You have about five minutes. Lets first here Chairman Larsen, ranking member graves, Chairman Defazio, colleagues on this panel and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to join you virtually today in this Roundtable Format to talk about airtraffic control modernization. Including Faas Progress in implementing upgrades under the nextgen umbrella. As you know Nextgen Portfolio programs is intended to enhance Aircraft Operation and Foster Industry Growth by implementing new airtraffic control technologies and capabilities. However, obtaining the expected benefits depends on faas successful delivery of initiative and capabilities beyond those already completed. The Dot Office of Inspector General has a longstanding body of work evaluating Faas Progress and challenges with modernizing our airtraffic system. Since 2006 Dot Oig has published more than 30 related audit reports and letters testify before the subcommittee numerous times and made hundreds of recommendations on how to improve Faas Management and oversight. Most of which faa agreed to implement. Over the last decade at the a eight candidates have invested significantly in nextgen programs and equipment. At that has deployed much of the needed infrastructure as well as some new capabilities. However, faa has faced and continues to face challenges that are postponed or limited some of the expected benefits of these investments. For example, Faas Echoplex Program aims to implement performancebased navigation, or pbn come for arrivals and departures in busy metropolitan areas. Pbn was expected to yield significant benefits such as fuel savings and reduce congestion. However, as a result of program delays and an resolve obstacles faas estimated annual benefits for metroplex are now only about half the minimum amount initially expected. In another example Faas Voice Switch program to promote digital voice switches will likely be delayed well beyond the original 2025 completion date. Faa terminated the Voice Switch Contract in december 2018 and is only in the early stages of developing a replacement. Despite these and other Challenges Nextgen is still expected to provide a positive return on investment. But as my office reported in march, Faas Projection for total Nextgen Benefit by 2030 has declined substantially over time. Faas projected benefits are now tens of billions of dollars less than the Peak Projection and faa has also extended the timeframe for achieving benefits. Nextgen benefits will be less than expected in part because the original projections are based on optimistic assumptions and were not adjusted for risk. For example, when airtraffic did not grow as anticipated neither did the expected benefits. Especially those related to the projected time savings for passengers. Next jens benefits have been delayed for other reasons. Most recently by covid19 and its unprecedented impacts on airtraffic, Passenger Level and program implementation. For example, reduce airtraffic limits the benefits realized for pbm. Continuing work to open Nextgen Initiative has also been affected including a delay of more than a year on Faas Datacom Program which enabled digital Text Medication between comptrollers and flight crew. Nonetheless, the Nextgen Portfolio holds continuing promise so long as faa takes advantage of opportunities to apply the lessons learned from the last 15 years of Atc Modernization activities. Realizing Nextgen Benefits requires continuing buyin from aviation stakeholders like those represented here today. As such, developing and publishing metrics that measure nextgen performance can help faa set expectation, improve transparency, and help secure industries longterm investment. Further advancing nextgen will demonstrate will depend on benefits to stakeholders, integrating nextgens interdependent capabilities, and harnessing Controller Automation tools and training to achieve more benefits. Much has been done and much remains to be done to realize the vision of a modernized airtraffic Control System with its expected benefits for safety and efficiency. Thank you again for inviting me to participate in todays roundtable. Im looking forward to the discussion. Thank you, mr. Soskin. To both Teri Bristol, ceo of E Ato and Pamela Whitley. And i see we will split your time so i will turn to ms. Bristol first. Thank you, Chairman Larsen. Good morning, everyone. For those whom i havent had an opportunity to meet, im Teri Bristol, the chief Operating Officer of the faas Air Traffic organization. As coo my most important job is to ensure that the national Airspace System, or the nas as we prefer to it provides the Gold Standard in Air Navigation and Aviation Safety services for the u. S. Every day. I also need to say right up front that the faa, the aviation stakeholders and the nation have had to endure, adapt and overcome the effects of the covid19 pandemic. Through it all we provided a nation essential nearly uninterrupted airtraffic control services through the darkest days of the pandemic. We are proud of our accomplishments but also realize that ensuring essential Air Traffic service requires us to follow the Health Advice of our Faa Flight Surgeon and interpreting national, state and local guidance which forced us to limit access to our Faa Field facilities beyond essential employees. Covid has also been a barrier to nextgen implementation by preventing Facetoface Engagement at our field facilities. We are all anxious to continue the moment in implementing our Nextgen Portfolio programs. Over this last year our workforce is look for creative ways to move the Nas Modernization for work. Weve employed virtual remote capabilities for everything from System Testing to conducting safety panels and site surveys. Weve made great Progress Staging Work to prepare for onsite activities at our airtraffic operational facilities. With respect to the Controller Workforce Training Certification And User acceptance are the linchpins for implementation period we are starting to schedule some tests and training activities at our as a technical center for terminal flight Data Manager and datacom and more programs are soon to follow. As national vaccine rates steadily climb and infection rates steadily fall, we already positioned ourselves to rapidly reinstate activities necessary to redeploy these systems, and its a commitment that we will continue to lean in as far as we possibly can mindful for the safety of our workforce. Theyre still much to do to achieve all of the modernization benefits of nextgen and we are eager to fully operationalize nextgen and we totally encourage stakeholders to equip to the mcl of up to achieve all the benefits that are possible. We will never take our eye off the ball to ensure that this complex national Airspace System remains the Gold Standard as the safest, able to accommodate a host of new users, and the most capable Airspace System in the world. So thank you. Thank you. And before ms. Whitley speaks we have a special announcement from garret graves. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, i just want to quickly make mention that ms. Whitley and i share a hometown. And she is a product of southern university, a great institution in baton rouge. I just want to welcome her here today and urge anyone to pay special attention because clearly with the kind of background shes got some great wisdom. Ms. Willey. Thank you, ranking member graves. Good morning. My name is Pamela Whitley and i am the Faa Assistant Administrator for nextgen. It is good to be with you Today To provide an update on the progress we have made with the implementation of the next generation air Transportation System, or as we all know it, nextgen. Nextgen is delivering a modernized airtraffic Management System for the national Airspace System, which we refer to as the nas. This modernization is making our system safer and even more capable of accommodating Air Travel now and in the future. Government and Stakeholder Collaboration has allowed us to put in place the majority of the nextgen foundational infrastructure, on our way to a more dynamic system. This infrastructure includes 21st Century Technology that enables digital communications between comptrollers and pilots, precise navigation of aircraft, near realtime surveillance showing aircraft position, along with advanced automation. All of this is operational today. Our focus now is getting these proven capabilities in the right places. To highlight two of our major accomplishments we have fully deployed adsb out capabilities and Data Communication Tower services are available at 62 major airports. Continued Progress And Delivery of Nextgen Benefits will only be possible with consistent engagement with our stakeholders. We have been successful using the 30 Member Nextgen advisory committee as our full collaboration for these individuals are asked to help us get a Consensus View of industries priorities and to help gain the support of their organization to commit to necessary action. An example of successful collaboration is the publication of the nextgen minimum Capabilities List, referred to as the mcl. Which resulted in a common understanding of the relationship between nextgen capabilities, eric carry Investment And Aircraft equipment and benefits. Because this recommendation is directly related to industry invested, i believe it will be recorded as one of the most important recommendations we have received from the nas. Nextgen has delivered 7 7 n in benefits to date and we forecast benefits to grow to approximately 100 billion in the 23 timeframe. Benefits of growth will continue with expansion of nextgen capabilities, with Eric Carrier investments to increase Nextgen Equipment in the fleet and with greater usage of nextgen capabilities. In summary, today our nextgen organization efforts have delivered 21st Century Technology that makes our system safer and more efficient. Collaboration and support of this committee has been essential to our nextgen accomplishments. The faa remains committed to leveraging new and innovative concepts and technologies to continuously modernize the u. S. Air Transportation System. Thank you for your time today and for the opportunity to provide this update. Thank you, ms. Whitley. And now turn now to chair Russell Childs, or chip childs, Nextgen Advisory. Thank you and goodbye everyone. Chip childs can present Ceo Skywest and chair of the knack. Ive been on the nac the past six years and nearly two years as chairman i have the privilege of taking the Childrens Position is prior to the pandemic pics of much of our work has been virtual. Still during this time weve wee significant strides to advance Nextgen Priority set by the faa. Recently the nac tackle some the most difficult barriers to full Nextgen Instrumentation including developing a nextgen and beyond minimum stability was contingent to resolve longstanding avionics issues run David Keene medications, providing back consensus on priorities for new performancebased navigation procedures. I believe with a wide range of equipment across the industry, gaining a consensus on the minimum Capabilities List has been one of the most important contributions. This includes Base Light Equipment on, datacom come surveillance with adsb which is complete and resiliency equipage. The minimum Capabilities List is foundational to the joint Faa And Nac understanding of aircraft Avionics Equipment and the operationalizing Nextgen Flight standards and efforts to modernize the airspace. Only as will reach the minimum capabilities of this based on what we truly realize the benefit of nextgen across aviation. We know varying Avionics Equipment or mixed equipment remains one of our largest challenges to realizing a nextgen Airspace And Wish to let many barriers to overcome. There is no Silver Bullet but significant financial barriers must be addressed for industry manufacturers and avionics provided to collectively achieved equipment to the baseline minimum Capabilities List. Regional fleets are known as a significant challenge what its worth noting major carriers own almost half the Regional Fleets in the industry. With help with Infrastructure Spending would provide critical support to move this initiative forward. Say to remains foundational to our network. The nac is advising the faa are many issues that will increase safety including but not limited to performancebased navigation which increases safety by employing precise Satellite Space Aircraft Navigation Route and procedures, and data key medication which increases safety by point digital loaded into the regiment can do to reduce the risk of misinterpreting voice their clearances. Environment and sustainability are also vertical areas of focus at the nac. The neck is advising on flight profiles, procedures and avionics that allow aircraft to use less Power And Precision routing which will shorten flights and avoid noise sensitive areas on the ground resulting in reduced Greenhouse Gas emissions. 2020 would be a is one of the most difficult years for aviation our Nation And Worker despite this chaotic environment and the pandemic our lives continue to work in the liberation to the Nextgen Work forward. They never wavered in their conviction that the Aviation Industry will emerge from this crisis and will meet all of the nextgen programs in the mid to ensure the national airspace will be even more safe and efficient. I will also commended the faa for the ongoing engagement in the Nac Threat the pandemic as theyve worked with us to press forward with the nacs Nextgen Priority to correct it when back in the field offices and facilities and ended at the end to stand how important that is. Weve also been supportive of ensuring that the priority is Health And Safety of all of our professionals and our customers as well as the economic recovery of the Airline Industry. In summary, the nac has advised several Keith Haskins in recent years even to the course of the global pandemic. As we emerge from the pandemic we are anxious to advance Nextgen Priority. The minimum Capabilities List is a big Milestone Equipment to the baseline minimum Capability List which truly is essential to a successful nextgen implementation needs help through Infrastructure Spending. This would remove potentially otherwise insurmountable barriers we face today is was speedy effort for limited baseline missed equipment. Thank you. Thank you very much. And we will now turn to Sharon Pinkerton from a4a peer to our regular. Morning and thank you for having this roundtable especially on the heels of the roundtable on sustainable aviation tools. We need to make progress for both nextgen and as early levels we can pull to make sure our Air Traffic Control system is helping not hindering the climate challenge we are alg to solve. I want to recognize that sometimes we have these nextgen discussions we can sound more critical toward faa, and that is not our intent. We respect and appreciate the work of both the leadership of faa and Air Traffic Controllers under the frontline workers who have gotten is through these very difficult covid times. In speaking to frontline workers, a strong thank you to all of you are fighting that cares Payroll Support Program. We simply wouldnt be here where we are today without that payroll assistance. My Message Today is this. Have to accelerate modernizing our Air Traffic Control system. The upside of making progress in choosing the 21st Century Technology is critical. Under the Obama Administration the future of Aviation Commission estimated that a modernize Atc System could reduce fuel burn and, therefore, reduce emissions by up to 12 . That is significant. As you all know u. S. Carriers recently up their climate ambition and we have set new goals. Netzero emissions by 2050 and second, 2 billion gallons of staff by 2030. Frankly without congress and the administration partnering with us on both Staff And Greening vat system, we wont make it. My simplified view of our connection with willing to go, the faa is mostly laid the foundation for the key Communications Navigation Surveillance capabilities. The challenge now is to operationalize and uses capabilities so were actually flying more precise, inefficient dash and efficient routes and emitting fewer Greenhouse Gases into the environment. I think the Inspector General support is instructive, noting the faa has really struggled with the shift from planning nextgen to actually using the new capabilities. We also believe that as congress and the administration consider a once in a Generation Infrastructure Proposal we do have the unique opportunity to accelerate the use of key technologies and actually realize the climate benefits more direct and efficient routings. And new infrastructure. Im pleased to say and hope you have received this morning that a broad group of Labor Industry and consumer groups have coalesced around a green Aviation Infrastructure needs list. These Priority Programs will yield benefits for all parts of the Aviation Community as well as the traveling and shifting public. Critically will help green our nation Air Traffic Control system. One of the issues policymakers address chip just talked about is what, referred to as mixed Equipment Consulting identified by the ig as a key impediment to Nextgen Benefits. This simple refers to the fact that not all aircraft have the same avionics capabilities. We are encouraging policymakers to make a onetime investment of approximately 1. 5 billion to establish and Equipment Grant Program to provide the incentive necessary to equip all aircraft with avionics to me that minimum Capabilities Threshold that was discussed. This investment would level the avionics playing field and get that last mile of equip age on board to civil i controls decisions like them to optimize Air Traffic tools and making the airspace more efficient and climate friendly. The other key programs we encourage of the committee to consider focusing on our the need to accelerate performancebased navigation implementation. Second, implementing we commend the faa for the Work Theyve done on tower data. We need to accelerate implementation of spacebased oceanic surveillance are more efficient routings over the ocean. Taken together weekly disinvestment would refocus nextgen and truly deliver safer and more efficient operations create a better expense for Passenger And Shipping public, while helping us lead our shared climate goals. The climate is truly high priority. We need to find a decisive and impactful way on both sustainable aviation fuels and nextgen. Thank you very much. Thank you, ms. Pinkerton. Appreciate that much and i will now turn to Paul Rinaldi whos the president of natca. Mr. Rinaldi. Good morning. Thank you, chairman deposit, Chairman Larsen, ranking member graves and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity for me to protest but in this roundtable on behalf of nearly 20,000 Aviation Safety professionals and that natca represents. Over the years we have highlighted that a stop and go Funding Stream will negatively affect the aspects of our national Airspace System. It undermines airtraffic control surfaces, staffing, hiring, training, timely implementation of longterm modernization projects. It affects preventive maintenance to faa physical infrastructure. And as we are recovering from that long Government Shutdown in 2019, that we didnt face the unthinkable, the situation of covid19 in the pandemic. That pandemic has devastated the Aviation System worldwide including all the things that are just mentioned that are impacted by the stop and go funding. Over the last 15 months the Faa And Natca through collaboration has accomplished some remarkable things to keep the Frontline Workforce safe and the Aviation System up and running. Now with a vaccinated Workforce And Traffic levels returning to roughly 80 of the prepandemic levels, out of the chaos of covid19 we have and the Stork Opportunity to invest in our nations Aviation System in both technology and physical infrastructure to ensure the u. S. Remains the Gold Standard in aviation worldwide. The faas physical infrastructure needs attention. Our End Route centers are almost 60 years old. Many towers and tracons are in need of repair and replacement. Many of these facilities have exceeded their life expectancy. Some of these replacement, some of these facilities need critical replacement of systems such as roofs and windows and hvac systems and elevators and plumbing. As far as nextgen, that has been collaborating with the faa for the last 12 years for modernization of nextgen. We have had many successes and we anticipate many more. Moving forward our top priorities are to maintain and upgrade our automation platforms including the Ram And Camera and a top which are oceanic procedures. Some of our other priorities are to replace our replacement from micro, and has been a longrange radar surveillance. Voice communication systems, support tools and automation and decisionmaking. Natca strongly supports Chairman Defazio surface habitation bill, the moving forward act. I thank you for the opportunity to participate in the end of the forward to the discussion. Thank you, mr. Rinaldi. Now were going to turn to Captain Bob Fox, the first Vice President of the Air Line Pilots Association and just a heads up, the first set of questions will be from Chair Defazio and ranking member graves. Im going, im going to defer until later. So just get ready for that. Captain fox. Thank you, Chairman Larsen and Chairman Defazio and ranking member graves and everyone. Once you start by the same thing that sharon said. Thank you summit for the Payroll Support Program that was passed, saving thousands of jobs and literally kept those crew members on the payroll, recurrent training so that now as the flights are starting to come back they are all in position to bring the Transportation System back to where it was and the economy back. So they take you there. Im going to be brief. Identity as an operator as i see this. I heard the discussion how long this has been going on. I upgraded to captain at united airlines in 2005. I was a user of the system for many, many years until i was elected to the job a couple years ago which im now a member of the Nextgen Advisory subcommittee, and as you know, joe, a member of the actual committee itself. We are proud, Air Line Pilots Association are proud to be stapled stickles in this discussion and we thank you for having us here. We also keep an eye on the ball as things move along to what threats are out there. Threads concerning do the aircraft have the proper equipment to fly in performancebased navigation procedures. You know, where are the cybersecurity threats out there . And how is the Gps System being affected by maybe the 5g Network and other things . With that im going to get back over to you, Chairman Larsen, and like i said im here as an Operator Today that a slowing in the system, especially in the northeast and on the east coast for many, many years as this has unfolded. Great, thank you. Just a reminder folks this is a Round Table so we really dont have a fiveminute clock. You are kind but youre not on your own. Ill be politely interrupting you not appling you down. As well because the roundtable were not doing in sion yorty order. Its been done except the first couple it is being done by when you regime. I have pete and garrett, Julia Brownlee and Jeff Van drew will be the first four so with that i will turn it over to Chairman Defazio. Of course who has no clock. Yeah, thanks, mr. Chairman. I appreciate that. One of the key things is dealing with the minimum separation that weve implemented right now, boston and seattle, i guess youre working all of them. This is to ms. Bristol and ms. Whitley. When can we expect, im first off, when his oakland going to be completed . Secondly, when and a quickly can we expand this . This is obviously you know when key part of potential Fuel And Cost savings. Ms. Whitley . Ms. Bristol . Certainly, thank you. Chair defazio. So for the endstate of nextgen and dynamic capabilities will we use advanced Aircraft And Ground automation to enable our flight specific timebase solutions. We began utilizing adsb to enable three nautical Mile Separation standards in the in Route Airspace at of the low Flight Level two through zero where it was inevitably four. In 2019 the faa approved reduced separation standards from the five nautical miles to three nautical miles at or below Flight Level 2304 those with equipped aircraft. In 2020 to three nautical Mile Separation was successfully deployed at two key sites as you indicated seattle and boston. So moving forward in response to section 547 from the 2018 reauthorization we will be initiating three Nextgen Equipage equip page trials to utilize the three nautical Mile Separation for select within oakland, Air Traffic Control center to provide operational Access Flight deficiencies and airspace for the bay area, and that will run for a time of two years. We will be affecting that and looking for other opportunities to do the same thing in other facilities across the country. Well, i guess the question would be, why does it take i mean, why do you have to test it for two years . Youve already implemented it in two places. And then secondly, how are we going to do with the next Equipage Issue . Thats a good point because next equipage does certainly cause they can cause challenges of there. The opportunity with doing this as section 547 will be able to zero in directly on those equipped aircraft and offer them at threeMile Separation. The agency will be able to monitor the benefits that are coming along with that so that we can assess what the opportunities are. We will, whatever, how we assess these, you know, what the numbers prove out for us both for pro and con because if its in the next equip each environment that may become a challenge as well but we will be able to better see as we step forward where those other opportunities are in airspace where we can capitalize on the more quickly. If we had a line six aircraft coming in and one of them isnt equipped, couldnt they just make that one circle and go to the end of the line and absorb the longer separation . I mean, how are you going to deal with that . And it would want to ask ball what you think about that . What may happen is they will have a different trajectory and they wont be in the line that has the reduced separation. They will be doing traditional separation. Okay. Paul, do you think how much is it going to call get the work of your folks . It will complicated as a look at different levels of separation. We can do it over have to change the philosophy. Weve been a philosophical firstcome firstserved Air Traffic Control system to best equip answer. We have to really work on that retrain that. And as Teri Bristol said it would be a different path that the nonequipped airplane would take. Would be as a direct. So maybe not circling but maybe a circuitous route to the approach. Okay. So that wouldnt take any admission will anything . That would just be a Training Issue . We would need a real Philosophy Change of best equipped best served here we dont have that yet. Okay. Ms. Bristol, what about that . When i was going that . That is one of benefits of doing these trials through section 547. So that Reauthorization Provision really does Support And Help promote the benefit of equipped aircraft and taking advantage of these advanced capabilities and procedures. So we are very supportive of that. Okay. Just one last question, mr. Chairman, if you would. Ms. Pinkerton, unfortunately i wasnt briefed by staff before this i dont know whether we had a response to the questions that we sent to a foray on your request for the one and a half billion dollars for equipage a4a. A number of questions and concerns about how you reach that number, what planes would be equipped, when those planes are expected to be retired, et cetera, et cetera. I just dont know if you responded yet or not. Yes. Yes, we have an happy to provide that to you directly as well. All right. Ill get the staff to provide it then. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, garret graves. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Ms. Bristol, my opening comments i made mentioned to make studies at the faa Reauthorization Bill in 2010 recorded one of them was section 502 studies that relates to and modernization and specifically looking at past, present, and future of next generation, the nextgen system, excuse me, and how we are basically to modernize the national airspace here could you give an update on the status of that report that is now two years late . Ranking member graves, i will provide an answer that question. We continue to work on that report. We understand that it is a priority and we are refining that now and hope well be up with to get to you pretty soon. Can you give me any brackets on timeframe . Producing means the week to a month. It means six months to a year. We would think that we would get it to you within the next six months. The faa this month has indicated that i believe they are 98. 8 through some of the commitments they made to the advisory committee, the Nextgen Advisory committee. Can you talk a little bit about, one of you talk a little bit about when were these commitments assumed by the faa . What the 1. 2 of remaining items looks like, and are there any i guess new commitments beyond the ones that were referenced in the 98. 8 commitment that you all are working on . Yes. To the Nextgen Advisory committee, we work each year on a set of commitments based on the four priority areas that we established within back in 2016 i think it was. So we work in the area of data communications, our surface, and data sharing activities, pbn, multiple runway operations in the northeast corridor. And our experts along with the agency experts say that each year and we come up with a set of milestones. They are instead of government milestones and a set of industry milestones. So that set of commitments is actually updated each year, so the statistics that you have are from last year and we are currently working on an update now to establish the commitments for the coming year. Okay. Thank you for that clarification. Mr. Chairman, last question for ms. Pinkerton. This pinkerton, as we watched the Nextgen Rollout Youve often heard accomplishment touted whenever milestones were hit or different technology put in place, but in looking at i guess the real outcome of some of those announcements its been difficult to really quantify any real benefits, and im just wondering if you and your members share those concerns that while milestones or different technologies are being implemented there really hasnt been a quantifiable sort of benefit to the flying public. Is that a concern that you shared . Yes, i would say that that is the concern. I want to make clear, we have seen benefits in certain areas. For example, data, thats the out in the entire environment we seen benefits with that program. Pbn come some of our ceos i heard say theyre only using those procedures in 5 of their approaches, and so i think, you know, and listen, four years ago we wrote a three Page Manifesto on why we didnt think the benefits were being delivered but, frankly, we are at the place where we just want to see progress frankly, and some of these critical programs. So were less about arguing about is a 200,000,000,100,000,000,000 and getting into the Passenger Value of time and more about trying to focus on our Priority Program and how we can make progress in having those programs actually be used, and that actually heard Administrator Dixon say that he understands that as well, that while the foundation of capabilities have been laid, the challenges to operationalize these capabilities to deliver benefits. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Im watching my clock closely there, so im going to go ahead and shut down but it do just want to say that i think this does cause some concern about the confidence that we have in the industry has and the ability to intimate this program and realize the benefits. Yield back. Your selfdiscipline is in vs. Now turn in vs. Now turn to ms. Brownley and followed by mr. Van drew. Thanks, mr. Chair. Ms. Pinkerton i dont have a question for you but i want to thank you for the plug on scf and agree with you wholeheartedly that saf and this nextgen implementation is critical to reaching the goals we all want to obtain. Thank you for your leadership. Thanks. So to the faa, i know that this is extraordinarily complex, and i cant say that i fully understand all, actually all of the details in order to get to where we want to get, and certainly we want to maintain being the Gold Standard for the world. So i just want to keep it really, really simple so that im clear. Theres been a lot of shifts in timelines, et cetera, but can you, and im a firm believer you cant get to a place less you have clear goals and objectives. I just want to know when can we expect nextgen to be fully operational . Its a simple, a simple edge in terms of what you are striving for. I want to share with you, the foundational infrastructure which includes the programs that we committed to the modernize communication, Navigation And Surveillance are basically completed. In terms of knowing what those systems are. We continue to manage those programs to deploy them to get them to the right places. So in large part the concepts are complete. The remaining work is operationalizing and getting those things and committed in the right locations in the national aerospace system. When do you think that will happen . What are you striving for . When the hope that will all be complete, the operational side . The operational side what i will say and i will ask kerry to chime in, if they location specific. All of our programs have implementation schedules that tell us what sites theyre going to and when the escape of those will be the point at that site. In a big picture timeframe we think in the 2030 timeframe most of the capabilities will be out there and the living benefits. And one of the things that were focused, Weve Mention operationalizing nextgen a couple of times now but the reason its important is its not about just publishing a procedure or a capability like a terminal Spacing And Sequencing or some of these other tools we have. We have to get into our facilities, work with controllers, and helped to stick. We track, i have the utilization numbers for pbn procedures today. Weve got 9600 pbn procedures that are in the Naz Today out of 21,000 procedures that pilots can use in a system. We track those utilization numbers. At our core three airports from april 2020 to 2021, the Arrival Pbn procedures are being utilized about 87 of the time. On the Departure Site for pbn procedures its about 67 . So what were trying to get in is make sure is that as we deploy these additional tools, controls to how to use them, where you are in the nas matters. If you have come if youre sitting in cleveland want to work with washington center. You want to work with kansas city center. So were trying to ensure that the whole system is working. We are not excelling in just one part of the system. So its a pretty complicated endeavor, but these other things were focused on now. And, unfortunately, we are when covid hit it through a big ranch in because we are poised to get out with data, and rude, where well underway, with three centers under our belt. T Fdem Wouldve been operational last year in our first location which is phoenix and now that would be next year in the spring but its really, its a system of systems, and helping people understand how they all work together to get the most out of it. Yeah, and i get all of that, i really do and i know its extraordinarily complex, and im not trying to oversimplify the complexities here. Im just really trying to get at what faa really does believe that they will be fully operational. But i but i hear you adagesk what other quick question, mr. Chairman, and i will yield back, and this is to the Inspector General. Since the implementation of the southern California Metroplex redesign, i heard from many of my constituents about Aircraft Noise in their neighborhoods. Im sure its going to be an ongoing issue. But my question is, desi Oigs Analysis of economic impacts on nextgen include any assessment on noise impact . Thank you for the question, and for raising the impact on your district. I think my mother actually used to live in your district in thousand oaks a number of years ago, so im familiar with some of those noise concerns. Now, in our work we have recognized the impact of Noise And Noise concerns in our metroplex implementation audit, and recognize thats been one of the sources of delay for procedures and metroplex benefits. We havent done any work specifically on the issue of noise at this point so i dont have any details about the value or impacts of noise to share with you. Okay. And just, if you done any i yield back, mr. Chair. Thank you. Thanks. A many other programs. More than six decades, f. A. A. s independent Lab Dri and the national scientific testing for research, development, tests and evacuations. Its a historical role in the Air Transportation is well established and its very unique. The Tech Center Director is the f. A. A. Executive responsible for cultivating and sustaining the center and its laboratories. Its technical work and scientific Staff And Collaborating with academia and my question would be to both how do you inspect to leverage the technical Centers Leadership and worldclass capabilities to achieve the f. A. A. Vision of next gen and future enhancements that could take place . Thank you for that question. As you stated, were very proud of the work that happens at the Tech Center. Its a worldclass center and basically, one of a kind in the world. This were able to do research on new technology, new concepts, we research engines, and the Work Weve done there has really led to the safety standards that we have to tate that make up this in the world. And well continue to do that. And we do work there to evaluate new concepts. Just recently doing the covid challenges, we were able to stand up Software Testing capabilities that allowed us to do Software Testing virtually with some of the building systems. So, we expect that the Tech Center will remain the core of how we actually evaluate technology before theyre complete in the national aerospace. An and i would only add to that, its a Premier Facility and we travel in the Air Traffic situation and we bring controllers in for testing on all sorts of programs that we have. We do, we shake those systems down and it really is a facility where weve been able to do that and i know that with the leadership, theyll continue to evolve the capabilities at that technical center. Thank you for your commitment to it. Were proud of it and proud of the work that you all do there and hope to continue into the future and do and accomplish just some amazing technology and some amazing exchanges. So, thank you so much. Thank you. Thats it. Thank you. Okay. I will note we didnt go this year because of the pandemic, but i would like to get back up to the Tech Center. We kind of we have members and they put on a great show for members, and so the research how to clear out Air Space for rocket launches, how to fire suppression systems and new materials to make planes safer. Its a great show and tell kind of day and helps you understand more Work And Research that has to go into making the airplanes fly and fly safely. Wed love to have you. Wed love to have you. Well wait for the signal that its okay to travel and well do it. Sounds good. Looking forward to it. Good. I want to turn to representative lynch from massachusetts and after that, representative nils. Steve lynch. Good afternoon, mr. Chairman and ranking member. Thank you so much for visiting the f. A. A. Tech center along with Chairman Lawson and chairman defaso. Some wonderful and challenging people there and also referred to as the scene of the crime. We have we have next gen in boston and here is my problem. Right now the next Gen Process brings all of these planes over thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of flights over the same houses every single day. So, the people that are trying to get next gen in their airports, think long and hard about that and maybe my situation will shed a little light on it. My situation is i have a very old airport layout. Boston municipal airport now called logan airport was originally established in 1923. Wilber was still alive. Wilber wright was aloved and orville passed away, he passed away young, but the thrust on the aircraft required us to layout the runways so it used the maximum Wind Velocity to get those planes up, talking about the faulker t2, it had 800 Horsepower Or Something like that. Today we have a much different situation. 2000 pounds of thrust in a 747, but we still have the same layout and the layouts are over the neighborhoods and over the towns and over the people. Meanwhile, we have an ocean, the Atlantic Ocean and the Planes Dent Use that. So, thats my problem. So im asking the f. A. A. To support my effort. Ive got a study proposed to look at reconfiguring our runways so they go over the water. Its simple. We redo these runways on occasion, we just did one about a year ago, year and a half ago. So we could optimize, optimize the use of next gen and also, give some relief to those long suffering constituents of mine. I mean, i live next to the airport and i dont think i can escape it. I can tell when the passenger has their tray in the upright position as they go over my house. Theres no hope for me, but for a lot of the other towns on the runway on the way in to logan airport, we can help them. You know what . Its going to help with apartment miesing the number of flights at that we get into logan airport, and there are dozens of major cities located on the west and east coast, that are confronted with this problem. So, you know, ive got a Study Request in to look at optimizing over the Water Approach and departure from logan international airport and i would like the help of the f. A. A. To consider that. Weve got to think outside the box otherwise theres going to be violent, violent opposition to bringing in some of these new aircraft and increasing the volume of Air Traffic which we have to do. Theyre going to shut that off. That airport off and try to build an airport somewhere else which is usely ineffective and theres a much cheaper and i think satisfying solution by looking at what were doing right now. So, thats all ive got and look, you know, i know we have some wonderful people at the f. A. A. And youre trying to do the right thing and make sure and our Air Traffic Controllers, god bless you, trying to make things as safe as you can for the flying public, but i also know the f. A. A. Is keenly interested in reducing the amount of air fuel, you know, Jet Fuel we use as a way of saving money for the airlines and you know, theres got to be a tradeoff here hopefully for the benefit of the people who live under this Air Traffic. I yield back, mr. Chairman. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Lynch, appreciate the comments. Im going to turn now, and i have an order, representative nails from texas and representative holmes, congressman Holmes Thornton if she returns. If not, representative titus unless representative thornton returns. Chairman larson, ranking member, i want to thank you both for your leadership here today. And my question is geared towards Captain Fox. Captain fox, in your opinion, wasnt next gen done to improve Flight Performance for a pilot . And what advancements have yet been implemented that would improve things further . Thank you for the question, congressman, so, clearly, as the operator upfront, when i first started flying, we were flying vors across the country and next gen is the loudest to and mr. Fox, for those of you who arent pilots, what a vor is. Im sorry, its a device on the ground, dont know what it stands for, device on the ground and puts out a Signal And Tile in the frequency, 123. 1 and the needle would point you in that direction and you would fly across the country from one receiver to the next, and they were located in different parts of the country. Now with performancebased navigation, you can actually take the most efficient route across the country includes when the airlines look at that, they look at the winds aloft and they look at the radar, but clearly, thats been the benefit. Ill make it quick though. Where is the real issues . Number one, not all of our aircraft are equipped the same and not all of our aircraft can take advantage of the capabilities out there. And that primarily leads into the arrivals of our big hub airports. They have a lot of arrivals, one after the other and some of the aircraft going in dont have the same equipment, the modern equipment and as a result, paul can talk about this more. The space needs to be a little bit further apart and the efficiency of that arrival does not happen. And the second piece though is the Metro Plex Piece brought up earlier. I flew a lot out of new york city, both kennedy, laguardia and newark. Ill Use Newark as a xrm. Example. You come into newark on arrival and because of the complexity of that air system, youve vectored down to almost 3,000 feet and take a southerly heading and they sometimes take you past atlantic city before they can even turn you back around to get you going north toward the airport and land. You think about that, were burning a lot of fuel at 3,000 feet, producing a lot of carbon and until we get that resolved and get that Metro Plex System resolved. The efficiencies that were looking for for our passengers in the reduction in carbon is not going to get there in my opinion. Thank you, Captain Fox. Chairman larson, i yield back, thank you. Thank you, thanks for the question and your participation and i appreciate it. I dont see that representative Holmes Thornton is back so go now to representative titus from nevada. Thank you, mr. Larson mr. Chairman. We recently had a hearing about examining innovations in the Aerospace Industry and I Representative a district in nevada that really has tested for a lot of new technology, especially in the mobility space, weve got the hyper Loop And Weve got thE Aton autonomous shuttle buses and now another player with Aerospace Technology and developing this. This is a new challenge that Air Traffic management. Now, a lot of these vehicles are going to be kind of operating outside the usual Flight Paths so i would ask administrative Whitley And Mr. Rinaldi, if they would discuss these how these emerging technologies are going to be integrated into the existing system and if there are things that our subcommittee needs to be doing or examining and theyll make that process easier. In the past when weve dealt with drones, canada, australia, europe, they got ahead of it and they developed faster than we could keep up with regularlizing and accommodating and maybe get ahead of it instead of behind it. Would you all address that for me . Yes, thank you, representative titus. We are currently working with the industry to understand their plans to develop new technology and you mentioned the new types of vehicles. Much of that work requires government and private partnerships because they are responsible for the vehicles. The f. A. A. Regulatory community will work with them on certification of those vehicles to make sure that theyre safe and then in our research program, we actually researched the concept that they want to use, with are they want to fly, how they want to fly them, and work to provide the right type of Fuel And Technology to support integration of that. We would want to know what they want to do in the Air Space and when they want to do those things in the Air Space. How they plan to use them in the Air Space. So we can make sure that we have the appropriate data to integrate into our appropriate systems to support Air Traffic operations. So, im sure that there will be some demonstrations there in filling those requirements. Thank you. Thank you for the question, congressman. You know, i think the first step is to segregate them out of the current Air Traffic flow and see exactly what the behavior is of the, you know, whether its a drone, whether its an unmanned vehicle that is, you know, with mobility, whatever that situation is, is a segmented corridor away from actual movement of Air Traffic Control and bifurcate that out and see the new entrants and what to expect. And through time and the history of what to expect from them, then we can actually integrate it through into our Aviation System. But it will its something that we have to be very cautious of, especially if the controllers wont be able to communicate with the vehicle and be able to know exactly where that vehicle is going. Its hard to separate from something you dont know where its going or whats happening. I think its going to be a real challenge. Its going to be a challenge of practice and communication, as well as infrastructure. What do we need to put in place in our airports that will be able to try to accommodate the things that you were just talking about. Well, thank you, mr. Chairman. I look forward to working on this issue and pursuing it with the subcommittee. Thank you, representative titus. I appreciate it and representative van dine from texas to be followed by representative ka from hawaii. Thank you for holding this Round Table. Im concerned that the f. A. A. Claims next gen and its benefits are on target when the Ig Report shows the opposite. Theyve been working on next gen for 10, 13 years and when i talk to stake holders, i continue to hear about inefficiencies, specifically the Attorney General looks at taxi times and delays in 2008, 2019 across the naa for the 4 largest domestic airlines, including american airlines and southwest airlines. American is headquartered in district 24 in southwestern right around the corner. The Inspector General is not able to identify any clear improvement to any operations overall, instead overall operations say peer to become less efficient. And we taxi time delays in this period. And they showed increased block times and f. A. A. Deployed much of the infrastructure from next gen, benefits are not widely used or have yet to be implemented. So i guess a question for Pamela Whitley, if you dont mind, our report shows that the f. A. A. Claims next gen generated 6 billion from 2010, 2018 split evenly between f. A. A. Airlines and the travelling public and the benefits represent a small representation of the overall benefits and lower than the 9 billion f. A. A. Implementing next gen. How do they arrive at the projected benefits of 100 billion Kume Latiff cumulatively . Theyre derived based on the Modeling Work based on the capabilities put in place and the formula includes over time. We have to make assumptions about when they do the benefits estimates. The 7 billion to date basically is based on our measurements through the modeling of the capabilities that are in place. And we believe that those things will continue to accrue benefits. The additional things that weve put in the system, along with increased equipment and greater usage, is what gets us to the 100 billion dollar estimate. Okay. Thank you for that. Terry bristol, the Airline Industry and the broader Aviation History haved trans responders to comply. And however, benefits accrue when Air Traffic Control can identify and identify the aircraft to safely fly more efficiently and looking at this mr. Expeditiously with congested airports like dfw. Thank you, congresswoman. Are you asking about afc out or asking a different question . Adsd out. So the adsd out, we ingest that into our automation system. So pilots have to have their transponders on and we can see them flying in the system. In some parts of the country we can see them in mountainous, terrain, for example, we previously couldnt see them. So it gives our controllers far better Visibility And Insight into who is operating. So the question was, do you have any challenges though . Can you describe any of the challenges youve had associated with the deployment . No, you know what . When it comes to that, that program was completed a number of years ago. Any new program as its developed. You will encounter challenges, but you know, we deployed the Ground Infrastructure years before the industry were required to equip by 2020, so, you know, i think that it is a very good safety improvement for our controllers to be able to see that all of those aircraft that are operating within their Air Space. So, right now, congresswoman, i would tell you that we dont have any major challenges with adsd out. Thank you. And the past months theres been Discussion And Disagreement on what spending should or should not be included in the Transportation Bill so i would ask you, can you outline some of the infrastructure investments that congress could make that would improve next gen implementation and efficiency in american aviation generally . Yes, thank you. Id like to do that and id like to kind of piggyback off of your last question to answer this question. Because as you know, there was a mandate for the carriers spent over a billion with that. And i agree, there is a Safety Benefit for controllers, which is important in being able to see more accurately where all aircraft are, but frankly, what we had wanted was some additional procedural benefit from that billion Dollar Investment and those have really been slow to come. At that point in my Opening Statement, i mentioned putting oceanic surveillance as a priority on f. A. A. s list for getting that done more quickly. Because frankly, i think therein lies one of the heart one of the dilemmas. I mentioned the labor industries, passenger groups came up with, there are things on it like the Air Traffic Controllers desired the newer, you know, not having 40yearold And 60yearold facilities, which are certainly not good for the environment, but the issues that i mentioned was this kind of last mile of equipage for Pbn And Data com. And i know some people would ask, well, why dont you all just equip with that . And i would say, other than the 40 billion that we lost last year and the 20 billion that were going to use this year, the problem is really that we havent seen enough of a Benefits Case from equipage and thats why were asking for that 1. 5 billion dollars to get us the last mile on next gen. Frankly, when you look at the bill, we understand were a small part of that. I think though that as the committee moves forward on an infrastructure bill, of course, service will be primary, but i think that spending money on aviation can really get us a long way to get a lot of bang for our buck in bringing in the traffic Control System. So thats one of our top priorities in addition to what paul mentioned on facilities and there are several other things on our list, including that oceanic surveillance program. Which i dont think is as much a matter as money, frankly, as that is moving forward with the program in a more accelerated fashion. Excellent, thank you very much. I yield back. Thank you, senator, appreciate that and now go with representative from hawaii. Aloha and. Aloha chair and the ranking member ap Round Table. I want to echo Captain Fox talking with the vor, and might have forgotten the beacon we use today fly all over the country before, but the previous members questions and dialog leads perfectly into what i was going to talk about which is that 1. 5 billion request for Apc Modernization Equipage funds. I have some concerns with that, only because id like to know about where that money would be spent. I mean, in the testimony you talked about regional airlines as being many so of the most challenged in and mixed equipage in equipping those that regional fleet with the new technology. My understanding is the regional fleet is also an aging regional fleet and that the regional fleet will be replaced in the next few years with more modern regional equipment and so, you know, is this something that congress should look at appropriating over a billion dollars in equipment that into aircraft that potentially will be not be flying and will not be utilized in the near future . I mean, part of next gen and also the government and stakeholders will be investing in the upgrades to improve the national aerospace system. So we would expand more on that position, specifically the Modernization And Equipage fund. What major airlines have already made the modernization in their fleets and what regional have done or not done and what are the age of the Regional Fleets and is it a smart investment for the congress to make. So since chip is really here representing the regional carriers, im happy, but id like do defer to him first and then ill chime in on the major carriers, if thats okay. You bet. And thanks, thats a great question, but i think your assumption of whats happening in the regional model is pretty accurate. There are some big questions and complications relative to the Regional Fleets. Theres no doubt that i would say that were the largest regional carrier in the world, give us an example and we fly about 500 aircraft and about 40 of the aircraft that we fly today we bought within the last, you know, six to seven years and theyre ready to go with the minimum capabilities, but we have a smaller fleet that is that is aging and that we do not have a great Market Strategy to replace that fleet as of this time. We would love to do a free replacement with new aircraft, to come out with all of this, you know, all the technology related to the Mcl And Everything that were talking about. The problem is that we have the market forces relative to some of the manufacturers and i dont want to get too complicated into the commercial side of this, but to answer your question, its very uncertain about how long we can actually, you know, assume that were going to replace this fleet. We dont have the right manufacturers in place so well assume that were going to be be flying this fleet for a long period of time and this would need a relatively expensive retrofit of some of the technologies in order to get to the minimum capabilities to make sure that we get, you know, to that big wideranging amount of fleets throughout the United States thats flown that way. From our perspective i think its a very good source of funds. Were the biggest regional carrier. Most regional carriers are smaller than we are and theyve suffered through the pandemic trying to come out and get back on their feet in an infrastructure, you know, investment into a fleet thats that has some uncertainty about the longevity of how its going to fly and if its going to have a replacement is in my view a very key reason why im the Chairman And Something we work on every single day. Thank you. I have one more question, i dont know if, sharon, you wanted to add in the majors . Quickly, you asked what is the ratio. So, for the estimate that we developed for equipage, the regional aircraft 1,146 of those aircraft in the main line aircraft, 496. And i, like chip agree, this is a good question and certainly Chairman Defazios bill has a cash for Clunkers Provision in it. I would know that during from 2017 to 2020, carriers took, delivered, delivery of a thousand new aircraft, which are fully equipped and much quieter. And they also, in 2020, announced immediate retirement of about 300 planes and then, announced another 300 that would be retired over the next three years. So, i do think that that process is ongoing, but i still think theres this last mile of equipage that the idea is identified where we firmly believe, you know, its kind of a chicken and an egg, which comes first, the equipage or the benefits and quite frankly, we need a chicken. Because we just havent seen the benefits. Okay. Thank you. And one more question i have, thank you, chair, and its not specific to next gen, but it has to do with the efficiency of flying our u. S. , you know, routes over the country and im wondering if the f. A. A. Or the department of transportation can answer this. You know, in addition to next gen, which is reliant on Space Technology and more enhanced precision approaches and runway operation, conditions for atcs to operate into highly congested airports, are we also coordinating or is there any corporation happening with the department of defense in terms of the nations Air Space and militarys Air Space and, you know, as you all know, the military space covered a lot of the country. Often times, its not being utilized or its not hot versus cold. The military likes to make Air Space hot all the time, but it causes aircraft routes to be diverted and not the most efficient Flight Path over the country. Is there coordination with the department of defense in terms of reevaluating the nations Air Space and our military operating areas that we have over the country . And to answer that quickly. I can do that, chair. Yes, congressman, actually were working very closely. My office, with wayne who is in charge of the Policy Board from f. A. A. To dod. Were talking about many of those things, but were working very closely on military operating areas and working to identify how much Air Space is needed and how much Air Space do they need. And can we more actively reallocate that. So, i would say yes, yes. Thank you very much. Thank you. Youre welcome. Thank you. Turning to arizona. Go ahead. Thank you very much, chairman. This has really been an outstanding Round Table. Ive learned a ton about the updates to next gen, was mentioned by many members earlier about issues as relates to air going over communities. It was mentioned earlier that phoenix was the first city in which next gen was attempted to be implemented. I happened to be mayor of phoenix during that time that next gen was attempted to be implemented over phoenix and if you were involved you know that didnt go well. Phoenix engaged in smart Land Usage at Sky Harbor airport, and the feeling was that next Gen Upended Decades of smart Land Use Planning to obtain the end of next gen efficiently and sustainability, less usage of fuel, et cetera. But to obtain those ends, it upended decades of smart Land Use Planning by the city of phoenix in terms of efficient Land Use around the Sky Harbor airport. Unfortunately it ended up in litigation and from phoenixs perspective, into successful litigation to undo the Takeoff And Landing routes to go back to the old ones while we studied how next gen will impact historic neighborhoods near Sky Harbor and i wanted to see since the phoenix litigation, how is it going relative to next gen taking into account Land Use Planning by the various communities near airports around the country . Has next Gen And Planning for next gen changed regarding what happened in phoenix, thats for anyone. I can take that. Thank you, congressman, you know, what i would tell you is that weve heard from communities, weve heard from Congress And Weve fundamentally changed the way we engage with communities. Aircraft noise is a shared responsibility and its critical that the airlines, the airports, the local governments are a part of that conversation. I will tell you that over the years of metro plex, we have continued to learn a lot as well and within the agency, we absolutely prioritized Community Engagement to address Aircraft Noise. We have any number of airport Round Tables that are taking place around the country. We work with our regional administrators very closely in different parts of the country to engage at that local level. Weve stood up a new Airport Noise Forum and weve established new processes to increase communications between the f. A. A. Airports as well as airlines, so, i just we really have, over the years, modified our processes and i think that the agencys doing a much better job. I just want to second that, since 2016 that the new Community Outreach and practices that were created by the f. A. A. In coordination with industry. I think its made a difference with Community Outreach there. So thank you to f. A. A. Thank you. Thank you so much. That was my single question, i appreciate it, thats a really good answer. Youre welcome. Thanks, i dont see any members left so im going to have some questions to wrap. First for mr. Rinaldi, and this harkens back to the question that was asked earlier about Pbnus Airport at a certain time. How does your member make the choices about how to use the pbns for managing Air Traffic . Sir, its set up to use those approaches unless winds alignment, dictates or certainly Traffic Flow or volume of Traffic Wont Deck tate to use it and at times, its more efficient not to use it and as far as pbns, as weve talked about noise, its more precise, and, you know, representative lynch is absolutely correct. We hit the same position and the same altitude every time and the winners and losers, theres a lot of winners in the noise game, but they dont say anything because they dont hear any airplane noise. But the losers hear a lot of airplane noise. So the f. A. A. , it fields a lot of complaints and across country at all of the metro plexes when we use these approaches because of noise. There are time we try not to use them. There benefits to using them and is the Default Position to use them . Use the newer ones . Yeah, i on arrivals, absolutely. Depar tours, depending on what the Departure Fix looks like and where theyre going after the runwayment certainly depending on surface, departing into the wind. And all of these things are looking at whats the most advantageous departure to use. Thank you. Chip, a question for you on the minimum capabilities. Remember back two hours ago when you gave your statement . The minimum Capabilities List, can you talk to us a little bit how they make those choices on priorities, specifically on the Capabilities List and essentially, the Equipage Issues . And look, thank you, chairman. I think the process that we have at the nak is one of extraordinarily collaborative with the f. A. A. And all the stakeholders. Our challenge is you have a lot of interested parties with a lot of different technologies and sometimes weve been trying to keep up with the Technology Train in the past because as you get ready to execute something, theres something new that comes out thats better and safer and all of these things and so, thats a very, very big challenge with the number of constituents that we have within the committee. But the process starts at the Subcommittee Level and we take a look at what the roi. Im chairman and i probably used that acronym, probably to another quarter. But ive used that acronym as chairman more than any other acronym because im not a pilot and i sometimes have to do my research at every meeting, but roi, i think, is still the most important conversation about what were doing and that has to benefit everybody, primarily with safety on the hard to identify the yield of safety investments that the f. A. A. Has made, but the process is extremely collaborative and as we went through the process the last couple of years right before the pandemic, we all came together with the f. A. A. And all the operators to get the best baseline out of the system and this is the list of things that we have to focus on and require manufacturers to build airplanes that have this type of technology going forth. Its called a minimum list for a reason. Like this is the baseline of what we need to get to. We have a lot of other technologies and we need to add to the list and as we start to get to again, the equipage piece. And the number one list of getting the macro yield out of the system is making sure we have our aircraft equipped so we can get to a macro analysis like the Inspector General has. And we know at a microlevel, all of these technologies are incredibly powerful. To the macro level, weve got to get to the equipage, weve got a good concensus that the 18 months ago, the Pandemic Hit and its ready to go along with the f. A. A. And requirements. Ive got a question and then ill turn to Congresswoman Holmesnorton and thanks for coming back, appreciate that. And the question earlier was about, kind of is there an End Date and i think its kind of hard to say theres an End Date to next gen because technologies keep changing and presumably keep folding in, building on, replacing whats the latest gizmo. But, you know, we kind of have to have a timeline. How are you choosing 2025 or 2030 versus 2035 . And is there a way to get a more accurate count of the costs and the benefits so that we can have a measurement more often, and more accurate measure more often of the benefits of these technologies pulled in for use . Chairman larson, in our report this past year, weve looked at 2025 to provide a consistent benchmark to look at how the forecast of next Jen Benefits have changed over time. And as we noted in our report, f. A. A. s most recent projection of benefits in 2017 look to 2030 as a dates through which to measure benefits. The jpdo back in 2007 looked at a number of dates through which to project benefits, also, 2025, i think was one of those dates. One of our and the Planning And Development office . The joint Planning And Development office. It was one of the collaborative efforts that was back towards the beginning of next gen to plan the original portfolio programs out and they even had a projection that went, i think, years beyond that to 2050. From the perspective of the office of Inspector General, theres not a particular End Date that one should choose to measure benefits, but to understand the evolution of the benefits over time, it makes sense to compare apples to apples. With most infrastructure programs, it will take time to realize the benefits after the infrastructure is adopted. And is created. And as our report recognizes, now as we operationalize and implement the procedures on top of the benefits, the controller tools, and the procedures on top of the infrastructure and the controller tools on top of the infrastructure and as all of the Air Traffic Control stakeholders make decisions how to take advantage of that technology, we will see benefits come into force. Its really heartening to see here today all of the discussion and all the demonstration of the collaboration among airspace stakeholders, in our report we highlighted the need for collaboration as one of the key elements to realizing benefits. So the apples to Apples Metaphor is just from washington state, are you are we at a point where were no longer comparing say 2007 estimate which would be totally out of whack and we have so much experience beyond that, that were actually at lets just pick the cosmic crisp apple to a cosmic crisp apple from which to compare . Or are we close enough that we can make those comparisons . Chairman, larson, if we want to compare costs and benefits, we can, of course, take the costs to date. I think 11 million is 11 billion, rather, is what f. A. A. Had forecast to spend. 11 million, thats great. And again, the fy21, 9 the billion, i think, they had quantified and spending through the end of fy19 and you know, we can compare the benefits to date with that. But if we see that the benefits to date fall short of that spending, and of course, its not just the spending by f. A. A. Thats relevant here, but spending on equipage, we do need to recognize as with any infrastructure program, we need to look ahead and project a period of benefits into the future. Now, before i go, i want to but i do want to ask you that. In looking forward are we do we have a consistent way to do that . Have we learned enough over the last, you know, i think pete and i have maybe and elinore served longest on the committee. Have we learned enough over the last whatever it is, say 15 years, we know in calculating the benefits, a, d, c, e or still adding fgh and i that we didnt add to the Benefits List . Do we have a consistent way to measure moving forward on the Benefits Side . Some of our recommendations that weve made and one of the principal ones in our 2021 Report Look to the importance of having f. A. A. Published metrics and make those transparent and allow those to be used for benefits. And i think in working together with their spacestake holders, in figuring out, you know, what the most important benefits are and, you know, and having a process and a plan for measuring those each year, that will really help with all of the challenges of implementing the further steps on next gen. And i do want to say that where you anticipated, i think, is a good way of looking at things, 0 that the process of technological modernization is one that is going to be ongoing and in some of these capabilities that were talking about today, like cloud computing, were not really in the picture when next gen was embarked on 18 or more years ago. All right. Thanks. Thank you. Congressman holmesnorton. Thank you, mr. Chairman, youre right how long ive been on this committee. It is i feel like having been on the commission that on the Committee And Subcommittee that Aviation Noise has been on on my agenda, too, for a long time. So these questions are for ms. Whitley at the aviation administration. Miss whitley, im cochair of the quiet skies caucus, so that tells you how important Aviation Noise has been. Theres a whole caucus. And it is, bipartisan on noise. So i was pleased with the f. A. A. s recent response to our letter of concern about the neighborhood environmental survey, but im pleased that to have you before us because i remain concerned specifically with the f. A. A. s next gen with flight pads without consideration to the people below those Flight Paths as a result of next Gen And F. A. A. s response to mitigate Aviation Noise. Millions of americans still suffer from sleep disruption, exacerbation of Blood Pressure and other chronic diseases. Learning loss in schools has been reported and economic loss to businesses which is O Course of special concern. Can i ask you, miss whitley, what timeline can you provide when our constituents will experience relief from the relentless drone of Aviation Noise . Congresswoman, i can actually take that request he. What i would share with you is that, and i had shared a bit before, is that Aircraft Noise is a shared responsibility and critical that the airlines, the airports, local governments were all a part of that conversation. I hope you can see that the f. A. A. Has really worked hard on evolving our engagement practices with communities. We have engaged in countless airport Round Tables across the country. Ad hoc committees, task forces, technical working groups and regional played a critical role in those engagements as well. We stood up a new Airport Noise Forum and thats providing real benefits for the cooperation between the f. A. A. And the airports and airlines. To identify common issues and challenges that we all need to work on together. Our Noise Ombudsman are being atively engaged regionally in airports. If we understand that there are noise concerns at particular airports or from community citizens, they get involved immediately. And then were actively evaluating moving forward on a number of concensus from Round Tables across the country and a few examples of those are boston, dca, bwi, and portland, maine just a name a few. I hear you and i understand and its something that well continue to need to work together on, but youve got our commitment. I thank you. Your mention of the Airport Noise for i guess i wanted to know if theres any arena to bring these agencies and parties together to work on Airport Noise. Well, i think that ongoing, the continued Round Tables that we have through our regional administrators, ensuring that we get all voices at the table and all at the table for that Round Table . You know what . Were trying to get more and more. During covid we actually conducted a Round Table virtually and actually, it was we were very pleased because we got more citizens dialing in virtually than we ever would have got if the meeting had been held in person. Because neighborhoods are next to each other, around airports and its really important that all voices are heard and everybody is understanding the same information at the same time. So also, weve got our next gen advisory committee and were actively pulling in our environment environmental and noise folks from the f. A. A. And working with that community on additional recommendations for improving processes and procedures around the country. So this is not going away. This is something that we will absolutely continue to work on. I really appreciate the greater efforts to bring together the multiple parties because that may be part of the problem of a conclusion there. This is a question for you, and or ms. Whitley. Performance paced navigation, we call it ppn, and Flight Paths that cut noise, reduce emissions and fuel consumption, and improve airport capacity. Can you tell me more about how performancebased navigation achieves these benefits and how specifically that technology can reduce the Aviation Noise in particular . Congresswoman holmes norton, ill start. Ppn is a way of designing pre advice paths for the aircraft to travel. It allows the aircraft to basically at a higher altitude that does not require the aircraft to do the step downs. Weve all been on the airplane and felt the aircraft accelerating and deaccelerating and kind of almost looking like stair steps coming down. But those procedures require what we talked about. So, were in the process of putting those procedures in the system and we have over we have about 9600 of those procedures established. The airlines, the carriers are very well equipped to fly those procedures. We find that theres a gap in the regionals, so we really would like to use those procedures more and more and when the aircraft is able to fly those procedures, because theyre not using the engines, then you dont hear as much noise and theyre much more fuel efficient. So its definitely the way to go. Weve been working towards that very site specific in terms of doing the design work, but its a kind of perfect marriage between designing the procedures, identifying the right place for us to put those procedures as we work with the stakeholders now to do that, getting the equipage levels up and we think that that ultimately gives us much more value in the system, better benefits and return on the investments. And congresswoman, the other thing i would add is that our Community Engagement officers and noise omsbudsmen. If were aware of communities, and were taking that in before we design the proceduresment we have more voices involved and better awareness going into that procedure. Oh, thank you. Ms. Whitley, you said 9600 procedures established out of how many . Ill have to refer to terri. What weve been doing is kind of looking at the old procedures that require the old technology and the old way and going in, working with the industry to identify their priorities, and redoing those procedures, but the actual total number of Procedures Id refer to my colleague in Air Traffic to answer that. Yeah, currently congressman, we have 23,000 procedures in our inventory. 9600 of them are ppn procedures. It looks like we have quite a bit quite a long way to go. Well, i think it depends how you look at it. We have a lot of procedures in our inventory. We do Track Utilization and weve continued to increase the number of Procedures Year over year that we are developing. So, 9600 are current ppn procedures. Thank you very much. And thank you very much, mr. Chairman, for keeping this open long enough for me to get back from my last hearing. No problem at all. And my pleasure. That wraps up the questions from members and i want to thank the panel for coming together to help us get Level Set on next gen, what it means, what it can mean, what it will mean in the future. We do this Round Table format so we can have a little looser q a, explore issues a little better than we sometimes are able to do in a hearing, but appreciate Everyones Involvement and willingness to hang with us the last two hours and well have a Staff Followup with any questions that we may have following this. The senate returns later Today T 10 a. M. Eastern to vote on the confirmation of james quall to be undersecretary of education overseeing the biden Administrations Student Loan policies. Senators will also vote on president bidens judicial nominations for u. S. District and circuit courts. Watch live coverage when the senate Returns Today at 10 a. M. Eastern here on cspan2. Live wednesday at 10 a. M. Eastern, olympic and World Champion Gymnast simone biles and and aly raisman testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee on the Fbis Handling of its investigation into larry nassar, the former Usa Gym Gnattistics Physician and convicted gymnastics physician. Inspector general Michael Horowitz and Fbi Director Christopher Wray will also appear if before the committee. Watch our