1776 to 1619 at the time when slaves first arrived on the shores of virginia and a goes on to say the revolutionary war was forced into slavery and it made other false claimson but also tried to redefine america as systemically racist andde that l whites are the ones and that all blacksd are victims and it offs a very dire picture of a country and it also makes the false claim that the current challenges facing many in the black community are a direct legacy of the shadow of slavery and jim crow. And so since the messenger here was black we thought the counternarrative should be also authored by abe black. We didnt want to offer a point by Point Debate or rebuttal. We wanted to offer an inspirational and aspirational up turn of the narrative that acknowledge his wit 1619 and slavery have been underreported and poorly examined. We acknowledge that at the conclusion we reached which is articulated in 1619. Wewe brought together group of scholars journalists and activists with different stripes and we offered these assays to establish the fact that 1776 is the birthday of america and the values of our founders no matter how far had been the foundation upon which blacks were able to advise slavery is discrimination and an attitude of selfdetermination. We felt it was important for this book to be written to give an alternative vision to america about the plight of blacks. We should never be defined by slavery or jim crow. Tell us about your title and let me read the title again. Red, white and black rescuing american history from revisionists and and race hustlers. There iss a lot there. Lets begin with red, white and black. What is red, white and black supposed to signify a. It signifies that black americans are part of this nation and we are not just some species set apart and therefore the claim this heritage and blacks fought in every war in the country. My father was a veteran of the first World War who died as a Result Andd to signify that blk americans are anth integral part of this nation and deserve to be so. But we also know that there have been people who have profited off of it in effect i let the civil Rights Movement in the 60s because i believed a lot of those who suffered and sacrificed the most did not advocate from the change and i remember demonstrating outside when they desegregated and they hired nine black ph. D. We believe they should be hired because they were qualified not because they did not benefit but i realized after two or three such encounters that i was in the wrong struggle. At the headline in my office that was written by the late l. Raspberry a headline in 1965 october 29 how in the crows have benefited from the civil Rights Movement and it goes on to state the reason. I believe there have been a bifurcation that has existed. And its existed since then but i want to stick your title a bit. Rescuing american history from revisionists and race hustlers. American history as its told in 1619 does not really talk about the chair authentic picture of blacks. Blacks are never defined by slavery. Some of my essays for Instance Look at the records of six major plantations at the end of slavery to look at what was happening in the families. They found that 70 of slave families in this tradition of twoparent households continued through a century afterwards. Also when whites were at their worst and blacks were at their best during that T Period the Literacy Rate of lacks was 75 and less than 50 years that number returns returned to 25 to the pointd where when the government they found there was little that they could do. He was already attacking that problem and they found nowhere in the history of the world where people had a 75 Literacy Rate down to 25 or send sent in such a shorT Period of time. In my essay i talk about how we are cheating against the odds of the physical circumstances. For instance in 1929 in chicago in lebron filled section when we were allowed access to financing banks blacks established black owned businesses in 1929 with 100 million in real estate assets in almost every major city there was a black wall street. These stories of triumph in a Te Face of our position are chaired with the public. And so these essays were intended to share new insight but i spoke at the university of talledega and when i shared with the students of history of what the blacks achieved they said mr. Woods and why didnt our leaders ever tell us the story and why werent we ever told this . Just to finish it out, rescuing american history you want to rescue american history from revisionist and race hustlers. Revisionists and race hustlers. It sounds uncomplimentary and pretty derogatory frankly and tell us what you mean by that . What i mean is there are people who profit from the suffering of people. Thoseg today who are denigratig the belief and as a consequence we have seen a rise in violence in these communities. The violence is not occurring in the communities where a lot of thesehe and so i spend 80 of the people that we serve at the Woodson Center they are in those atrisk communities. They are the ones who 80 are not supportive of defunding the police that but a lot of the socalled social justice warriors campaigned on attacking the police and they make generous incomes now providing consulting services to school systems and corporations in the name of Equity Training racial audits and hundreds of millions of dollars are being poured into what i call the race industry. In fact if you look at the programs over the past 20 to 50 years i did a lot of research and where that money went. 22,000,000. 70 of every dollar did not go to the poor. Went to those who serve the poor and theyey are the professional Service Provider so we created a commodity out of poor people wheree the question is which problems are fundable and not which ones are solvable. Thats why after 22 trillion blacks running these major urban centers and running these programs, why do we have the deterioration of the cities if Therty And Race where solution and then why in the face of 22 trillion most of those systems are failing obviously concentrating on race is not the answer. Now just a moment ago and in the book you talk about Race Grievance and you talk about the perpetrators of race and are there circumstancesci under whih voicing a racial grievance is the right thing to do . Absolutely. Absolutely. I taught in the civil Rights Movement that they were racial issues and i was sent to jail. I know what thats like they lived in the segregated south and i was in the military. I have 12 credits from the university of miami. Because of segregation and what we demanded then and also i know if a black committed a crime against another black in the south often they werent punished for it and they said that diminish black Livesai Butf they so we wanted to even the playing field. I said we should be judged by a single standard of justice and thus we fought for but now this is changing to the point where when 8000 are killing other blacks and there is no irate but when 18 blacks are killed like in the George Floyd Case we treated treat it as if its an Epidemic And Theyy are outraged about it and as a consequence it means that we say that the police departments are an extension of white supremacy and now we vilify them and as a consequencebased that back. A lot of the socalled leaders they live in secure communities and buildings or gated communities so many the people who are atin the caving to defud the police and vilifying it dont have to live with the consequences of their actions. Now you indicated in your last answer you are a person who lived a substantial part of your life under jim crow segregation. If you are from the deep south you have seen up close racial oppression. Yeah creates. Okay and in your look, in your book in your Opening Essay there are places you say listen, i will just read. You say slavery and discrimination undeniably are tragic part of our Nations History and in other places you say that. Do you think that part of the story and that part of the american chronicle, do you think that part of the story is underplayed . Absolutely. Well elaborate. What Circumstances Today . We need to tell the complete story of the horrors of slavery and the horrors of discrimination. We need to tell that story but i believe that the conditions that existed then are not the conditions that exist now. I get the example in my talk sometimes about a farmer coming to a stream with the mule and they get to the stream and the stream is flowing at 20 miles an hour and they get washed down the stream. They come to the same Place Year later that the mule refuses to go in because the mule has a good memory. Many of us have good memories away at this if so we engage in strategies where we act as if conditions have not improved and our strategic position should adjust to our strategic circumstance and that is notth happening. Okay but i can imagine someone saying look dont we need b to distinguish between wt one thinks would be prudent and productive Policy Today Race policy and social policy in general but i can imagine someone saying that is one conversation in the conversation about history though they overlap is still an independent issue and i can imagine someone saying with Respect Toyi americn history is still the case that too many americans are not sufficiently educated about some of the aspects that you just talked about. We dont have to go back to slavery and we dont have to go back that far. We can go back to subjects which are in your lifetime. And what would you say to that person . Too many people do not know that in 1941 black people didnt even have the right to fight for democracy and what we want is fors educational system to more fully educate everybody about the american history and its good sides but its ugly sides too. What would you say to that . Absolutely but we also need to say to ourselves that we are not defined by external barriers. And its dangerous and i think we hold to say to young People Today if you are dropping out of school that is not your fault and if you were at carrying guns and destroying one another its not your fault. If you are having children out of wedlock its not your Fault Or Theirs nothing more lethal than telling a person that they are exempt from any personal responsibility and many of the people were supposed to bee social justice advocates and progressives continue this drumbeat of saying to young blacks that they are not responsible until white people change so you can expect your life to resume. That puts the onus on white people to determine the agency of black people and thats a dangerous and selfdefeating message for people to say that somehow might destiny depends on what others have done. Let me give an example. People are motivated if you give them victories that are possible. And so for instance we talk about the Education Gap. In 1920 in the south the Education Gap between whites and blacks was three years. It was eighth grade for whites in fifth grade for blacks. What was their response . Roosevelts partner with booker t. Washington and they built fight thousands booker ts schools. Roosevelt put up half the money and the consequence to the rosenwald schools in 1940 is the Education Gap rose to six months but if we were able to do that when our classrooms or credit we would have half the budget of white schools. If we were able to close the Education Gap in the midst of racism when racism was enshrined in law the question is why cant we do it today with institutions run by her own people for the past 40 years with expenditures as high as it is an education . Dont we deserve the right to have these questions at least addressed . It seems to me theres a paradox in what you just said because on the one hand you are very much in the school of Lack History in which i was socialized but i associated with people like Carter G. Woodson and you know people who focused on what we have done and what we have been able to overcome first so you get your Ebony Magazine and every month that its the first is this in the first thatan telling people about what we have been able to accomplish and i think there is a lot of good to that. Heres the question i have for you though. Isnt it true that in the past halfcentury there have also been a lot of firsts. Wasnt there a lot of achievements in every phase of the civil Rights Movement and those phases you embrace and frankly phases that you were critical of. Black people seem to me have been coming on in making advances including in the last several decades, including people who have ideas that you criticize. Would you agree with that . Sure but its important to recognize that the biggest issue that i have is that when you generalize about any group of people and then you try toto apy a remedy that does to those of the top instead of at the bottom. You cannot generalize about black people anymore than you you can white people or and i will give an example. Right now cocacola and its gestureur towards responding Toa Charge of institutional racism so what is the remedy that cocacola and other companiesc propose . Ensuring that a third of all of the attorneys who served the company are black. Twitter. Tell me how the that helps the black one on public assistance living in public housing and how do that in the same with women. The me too movement animated by up Lack Woman teaching to help other black women in New York who come together in a new show of support so wealthy middleclass white women came in and made it the me too movement and now the concentration is on some white women getting their views on a Casting Couch in hollywood. So what is the remedy for them . In california women will be required to serve on the board and women who will be in corporate positions. Tell me howw that helps the thousands of black and women that are in our prisons or in our committees. We have an agenda to help women so as long as we focus on groups we will not help the people that i care about the most and that is the least of gods children. The other problem with focusing on race is that when evil wears a black face it does not i will give an example. There was a too are documentary on sexual abuse of women in prison. Everyone at the victimized were black and every one of the victims was black. It doesnt promote a single discussion. F not a single day because as lg as that continues its always going to be detrimental so thats why think we ought to be emphasizing upward mobility of low income people instead of looking at life through the prism of race because it means people like you and me are relevant and people who look in these high crime neighborhoods they will not benefit but we can walk around all proud and look at what we have accomplished but its coming at the expense of others in that community. You accentuate very much at the very end of the introduction to the book. You quote Adolph Reed. And you quote Adolph Reed and he says identity is very much the ideology of professional Management Class it is a professional management plan, they prefer to talk about identity, capitalism and the inequities of capitalism and we have an atrocious Wealth Gap in this country and it is not black and white, it is a Wealth Gap and nieces more when i find interesting is that a lot of people i think will call you and call yourself a conservative and many of the people that sort of their entrepreneurial, it is much abouter your profile but i think it many people would type as conservative yet you caught off Trail Read and he calls himself a socialist and in this dimensionve anyway he very much agree with you actually say that part of his criticism of the civil Rights Movement would be that it was oh yeah, that open doors for people like you and me, but it didnt do as much as hehe would like for william Juls Wilson calls the truly disadvantaged. We had to say about labels and thats an interesting thing, on the one hand youre viewed as a conservative and on the other hand, you are embracing the truly disadvantaged in your criticizing people for not helping out enough the truly disadvantaged predict your reaction all of that. Your explanation says it all because i dont define myself as a conservative, i find myself for my political philosophy is pragmatist. I make cardiac christian who is a ride radical pragmatist and i all of us someone said it doesnt matteres what people cal you, that is what you respond to what is important and will have reference groups and my reference group, low income people that i have served all of whitee, 80 percent of hundred of myet friends have letters in front of their names, None Back of their names such as ask vincent x that. And for the past two years, we have convened people like this all of the country and not once are they black or white, red, not once is an issue of racial comes up because most of the people in need in these communities are more concerned about their brokenness and their strategy towards redemption than they are political race. So i will support anybody to put in place policies and practices that elevates the least of gods children that will never be done as long as we try to do this by looking at people with racial categories. Its more Class Today than it is race and it brought together Clarence And Judy and clarence would be considered conservative where bernard anderson, my good Friend Bernie who is afraid of a group, has deliberately set of politics because if you go into a low income area, you cannot tell which political parties they are. Bill bennett said that when individuals of the part of black, they see as the victims and conservatives see different. So the issue is that im a radical pragmatist in all of what i know is whether or not policies and practices have a constant that improving of the least of the people and what are you doing like people in prison. Dont tell me that a woman in prison somehow is on par with a woman it with a phd working for a company were promoting remedies that helps one at the expense of the other. But as long as we look with race, or Prisma Race we will always have the inequities. And so we have got to be able to see the goal the Woodson Center is to not racialized race because as long as we are compelled to look at each other through the prism of race, the deeper more troublesome problems that we are facing go on. Okay, i think there are a lot of folks to actually would agree with what you say but who also would agree with large part of the people that you criticize prettyty harshly. And have a question for you, why do you for instance, you use this term in your Title Race Hustler we talk about the purveyors of racial grievance. Bucket community has people who think different things and you agree with some of them and you disagree with some of them. There is not within the black community and what would you say to someone who said in reaction to your book, i agree with a lot of what mr. Woodson said but i think that he does himself and his service by putting down a personal way of people whom he disagrees, how would you respond to that. I try to approach people in a way that on the interested in demeaning anybody. I dont s think that is the way forward. There is no one that i try to demean but i have to be candidate and i have to be truthful. That is somebody is doing something that is harmful and harmful to somebody not to speak out and i have been involved inside of institutions where millions of dollars have been given to help the poor and i perked been personally witnessed time and time again Bait And Switch game occurs and im going to write this and i guess with that this is what is bothering me is that when you black could betray the blocks, theres never any outcry about this. The mayor of detroit, who for years been stealing money for poor people in the city, and he was able to run successfully for reelection. Using the race defense. There thousands of low Income Attention is now the pension funds are short because of the 40 people with his criminal empire going to prison. There is no outcry in the black community and as far as im concerned,d, somebody like to patrick and others who use their positions of trust to enrich themselves at the expense of poor people, they are worse than bigots. To me there are traitors. In a trader is somebody who you trust and eight violate that trust in violation of ute so as far as i am concerned, to me theres some bigot who is my enemy, and i would say the greater enemy is the people you trust to violate that trust worried so that offense people, so be it. The example that you just use was an example of a person who committed crimes and a person who was defected ands feeling under stealing and he was corrupt. So thats not the sort of thing that i was thinking about. Whatever thinking about, let me tell you something mr. Woodson, im going to go Auto Briar and biographical here, my Father Henry H Kennedy City Senior was meant from louisiana. Born in 1917 and he saw the horrors of racial oppression in the deep south. He was a man who believed it very much and personal responsibility and the responsibilities of people to make it regardless. And he did, he married my mother and they were part of the great migration in thegr came north in the race three children, all three children collegele graduates, gainfully employed and my folks were church going folk. And i think that theyre both people of blessed Memory And B f you would admit them a bit that you would like them. And atld the same time, when you say this about my brother, my father my father, he never forgave the United States of america for what he viewed in his betrayal black people and for him, i think sort of the place where this was, he was a soldier, he was a soldier during World War ii and he saw the United States of america betray black people in uniform. And he never got over that freedom not saying that he was right, i am not saying that he was wrong. Im simply saying that that was his thought. And thinking theres elements of what you say, that you would be highfiving but there is also elements in what he believed it that is very much in sync with a 1619 and the people you are criticizing, so many black know, what do we do. Wallace just in the Rest G of this time talking about solutions and we didnt do this is a confrontational instrument. We did it to say to people using the Movie And Figure read yes. Remember that i was in the space program. There was a moment and there with Kathleen Johnson said were looking for how to open the elliptical orbit their hyperbolic all and she said mainly looking in the wrong place, she went back and got a degree in geometry and maybe we need to go back and look at what well do successfully under the worst conditions for a clue as to how we can apply some of our own valleys and the valleys to new reality. So in proposing is that we need to call more time on whining about white folks. And come together and learn how we were able to build hotels or 100 universities and schools back then. How slaves died millionaires. Robbers falling and s went backo the plantation which he was a slave any family of the Slave Master as it back to grab hundred radical examples. Lived by the principles but despite his feelings, this foo, does talk about, what we wrote these essays to inspire people to use that as a foundation to rebuild their communities, thats what we want to do. Im gauge about a debate about it now we are becoming together to talk about how we can rebuild. Homicide is the leading cause of death in the city and in the leading cause of death is prescription drugs and in Silicon Valley, the teenage Suicide Rate is six times the national average. So what were going to bere doig is 2500 voices of black fathers or mothers who lost their children to urban violence in support of the police in the coming together for mutual support. We need to bring them together with other mothers and mothers of Silicon Valley but or so that we can discuss strategies to fill the empty hole in the parts or children that are causing them to devalue their life to the point that they want to take their own Life Or Symbiosis pretty so these are critical albums we are facing. But we can do that for constantly divided by race. So thats why the Woodson Center of 177612 use our energies and resources and are best thinking about how moral and spiritual people thats been looming us in destroying our children. Is very happy to hear you mentioned this manut we were talking about a south carolina in. In your book, there are certain figures, in fact in your discussion this far you have mentioned certain figures into really stand out printed one is frederick douglass. Youyo quoted douglas and numberf times in douglas, talk about from slavery and the other person that you talk about of coursend, you mentioned it with tremendous respect, booker t. Washington who course wrote roar rose up from slavery. Who are others. Lets in the post World War two era since 1945, who would shape hundred 70 came upin to to you d say i hear what you are saying, it is resonating with me. Who are people, they could be journalists or historians or political scientists or what ever, who are the people that you would urge people to read and pay attention to. Well some of them are my contemporaries. Em some are in New Jersey and certainly ones in baltimore and a number most of them are pastors. And peterson in cincinnati, ohio most of them are not national figures, local. There is one woman in, she was on 60ed minutes and she went ino a public Housing Development and turn it around to the point where that drug dealers were driven out in the housing was built right across the street. She would be great in Washington Dc, nobody sees local leader. And so, there hundreds of inspiring leaders and pastors are doing phenomenal work. And Corey Brooks in chicago, and there are thousands of indigenous leaders go with eco antibodies and jumpers, Mike Book about jokers predict when joseph was important because even though he was treated unjustly like his father, he never considers this Card Enougo be not only his brothers who pretrade of and also his sisters who enslaved him. Theres an example of radicalle grace. And so its important for people not to get caught up in resentment because hatred and resenting that animosity consume use. Some said that its like taking poison and expecting the other person toon die. So what were trying to emphasize is in order to inspire people to come together, behind grace and focus more upward mobility of those at the bottom and just use her talents instead of always fighting each other for them will engage in the warfare. But there are people who profit often antagonism and they are the race hustlers. There are legitimate people who know better who do not act better. I call them racial and anger syndrome. And invokes this kind of discussion that would make changes pretty. One of the interesting things, seems to be the one Issue Parking in the whole question of what do we call were what do wee consider leadership. I asked you the question you went to the court the answer of local people and frankly about most of the people that you mentioned, many of the people in our audience will not have heard of an estate within in that locale. In fact you used the term indigenous people, sort of being innate locale, local people and i think theres sort of a disconnect because often times when people you know, in my mind, when people ask about leaders, their thinking about national leaders read their thinking about people who arent universities, and they are thinking of people are in the big newspapers, bigtime columnist. So the whole question is but the question that you are getting at is that you actually wanted to nurture and also someone on and lift up a different type of leader. These are the people are fine and dandy but there is another type of leader who seems to me that you are saying, that doesnt get enough play or enough support. You are absolutely right and that is what i want to do, we need to really study, in other words the principal should operate only 3 percent off her peopleer are likely entrepreneus but they generate 70 percent of all of the jobs. So innovation comes from within and they have an obesity students, not a students. The students come back to the universities and teach. In the cletter students come back in and out because more people have to have all of the answers before they act. And so unlike the same paradigm in saying that if somebody is able to for instance if ran into anan area of Washington Dc where the gang members in an area, i tried five social entrepreneurs in washington called the alliance. [inaudible]. And they had the trust in the confidence of the community and they in a 12 Yearold Boy was killed and i said they sought out 16 young men to my Office Downtown and they work on the truce and they took the same young men were terrorizing it the community and turned them into investors of peace. And as Ape Cause was we didnt have a single murder in 12 years we harvested the principles that we learned from this and have now applied them to other cities. So thats what, i mean, by leadership is local. And for instance, steve jobs created an instrument now 60 percent of Apples Income but it didnt exist eight years ago. Because that is how local innovation can occur. And i am hoping that this local restaurants leaders are able to stop 53 murders. He will provide a test bed, a happen throughout the nation. How do you scale something get like that. United states of america is so huge. We have 300 million people over this gigantic landmass all of the cities and the cities but also we have rural areas and we have problems everywhere. How do we mobilize the social financial, all the different sorts of resources that would be necessary or needed to effectively address the source of problems that are most undermined. That is the bestmi question because that is where we are at this point where we are seeking that kind of help from corporate american and others to know how to build this me of a group in Washington Dc the Alliance And Concert event that for three four months, theyou went into oe of those most violent areas of Washington Dc and for three or four months, there is not a single violence incidents because of their intervention. We ought to have been racing there for the resources and technical assistance to answer the question to say lets find out what you, did and how you dd it and it is provide you all the resources you need and the technical skill that it takes. The people i know how to market to a larger audience. We want to prosper them so the public relations aspect, we had to be mobilizing it around and spark of innovation that occurs in a local community. So that is one of the challenges that were faced and were at the point now where we are seeking and reaching out to people with resources, not just money but the wherewithal because we are social entrepreneurs but we need to join together with business entrepreneurs so we can answer that question. You mentioned a business think companies prayed about government. Government as far as im concerned, but the government does have a a role but not a leading role played because in order for the entrepreneurs to function it, you need the maximum amount of flexibility. So that you can address that in fact, you can if your listeners, where to go l on youtube and putting violence, you will see an example of how one is able to go into and also the commercial for my of i the book, lessons fm the least of these, is a book that published that has ten principles and answers the questions that you just raised. How to identify legitimate grassroots and to provide assistancece to them and how can we rebuild our culture from the bottom up from the inside out. Mr. Whitson, we only have time for one last question so let me just put this to you is there anything that you wouldve liked to have an answer for is there anything in your mind about the subject that you would like to convey to our audience before we have to wrap it up and go. Yes. I want to say theres a real urgency for us to end this racial strife. And tribalism because if there able the blacks were able to play race, some were white people. And i think unless you are able to push back against this racial is a shanna and push these limits, some point be long before whites are goingef to respond in kind. And i think that we could face violence and american Ari Level that weve never seen before. So theres a certain urgency that we have to move beyond race theres anink that urgency. Many people would jump in right now and say, what you mean whites might start usingt race, whites have been using race and are using race. You know, its very interesting. And this is where we are not truthful predict whenever i hear about an asian gang being racially assaulted it in california somewhere, and they dont mention the race of the perpetrator, i noted his black person. Eighty 90 percent of the attack on ancient are being done by blacks but the press will not reported because it does not fit the racial narrative. And it is a shame that we are being misled because theres an incentive not to be truthful but what is happening in the country but the whites are not attacking blacks from the day we are killing our children pretty they are not coming o into our communities killing and pinching our children predict 94 percent of the murders being are black on black. On the note, and of course we could go on for hours, this is a huge subject. But thank you very much for this conversation. Forward to some time to being able to meet you facetoface. Me to an you are a good interviewer. Thank you very much and be well. Thank you predict. Afterwards is available as a podcast, to listen visit cspan. Org Podcast Or Surge cspan afterwards on your Podcast App and watch this and all previous afterwards interviews have booktv. Org, just click the afterwards button near the top of the page. Weekends on cspan2 are an intellectual feast, every saturday you will find events and people who explore patients past of american history to be on Sunday Book tv brings you the latest in nonfiction books and authors, television for serious readers. Learn, discover, explore. Weekends on cspan2. It is my great pleasure as an Ecologist History major and a lover of History And Reading history, two oh,