Watch american History And Book tv every weekend on cspan2 and find a full schedule on your Program Guide or visit cspan. Org. Annette gordonreed on the 245th anniversary of 1776, are we that exceptional nation we often tell ourselves we are . Were certainly trying to be. In what way . I think there are a number of Peoplein Society who are working to make the ideals of the declaration a reality. Theres ideals expressed in the preamble about the quality and the pursuit of happiness so i think we have that idea and were trying to reach that. With the founders, and this is one of those silly questions but with the founders recognize who we are today . Of course not. Some aspects they would but others, women participating in politics, blacks participating in politics, all those things would have been foreign to them and the power of the United States. At the time were talking about, 1776 this is the 13 colonies in the middle of nowhere. They dont have the power, theyre leaving an Empire And Weve become an empire so i think they probably wouldnt have seen all that happened in the United States up to this point. Have you weighed in onthe 1776 versus 1619 debate that were having in the country . Ive done interviews and things like that but i havent written anything about it. I may have had a few stray tweets or something but no indepth essay at all about it. What are your initial thoughts . My thoughts are what ive said before. 1619 if thats what youre referring to talks about the beginning of slavery in the North American colonies and it sort of set the context of 1776. 1776 is different because its the beginning of what we call the beginning of the country so these people are acting within the context of what 1619 was before them because there was slavery in colonies but 1776 introduces a new dilemma if you want to say, thats what people call it, paradox and we can talk about that or not, whether it actually is a Paradox Butthis Idea of all men are created equal and a society in which a good number of people are enslaved. Thats the dilemma in 1619, the english at that time are not saying things about all men are created equal or anything of that nature. It becomes an issue when the United States breaks away and on the basis of a document that proclaims thisuniversal ideal. Where did that Prefix Clause come from . This was a way of trying to proportion congress. They wanted to count slaves totally so they would have better representation and this was a compromise between the northern states and southern states even at the beginning. Concerned about whos going to have power in the society because these are different, they come together as a colony but the regions were different in a lot of ways. Individual colonies were different but the regions have their own ways of life and its said that there were differences not just between big states in small states but states that have enslaved people and those who dont. So this is a way of compromising to allow 13 fractious colonies that were used to being alone for them to come together as a union. This was not an easy process, was it . Pr not at all. We think of states as states within the union but they saw themselves as different places, we talked about his country, thats what he meant. Hiscountry of virginia because it had been a separate colony. He didnt say the nation all at once but they created a union and that was a difficult process as we know. A lot of compromises to be made and compromises that actually ended up tsowing the seeds or papering over differences that peoplehad obviously in the 1860s. One of those founders that youve written three books about, Thomas Jefferson, when did your interest start. My interest in jefferson started when i was in elementary school and in our classroom at the back of the classroom they had a separate library but in the back of the classroom we had a library and it had the kinds of things you would expect for third graders, this is when i was in the third grade. Biographies of various american figures. Booker t. Washington, George Washingtoncarver and Thomas Jefferson. I read a Jefferson Biography during that year in my third grade year. And the book was supposed to be like a biography of him but something that was told by a fictional playboy, enslaved boy who was just a Jefferson Companion and it, the book bothered me because it portrayed the enslaved boy as sort of really not wanting to learn. Some of the exasperated with jefferson because jefferson wanted to read and go to school. He enjoyedthose things. And i knew at the same time as a black person my classmates and the intent of the author was to send a message ive thought about black people. And at the same time that they were sending a message about jefferson, about his intelligence and his curiosity and i thought of myself as intelligent and curious and i wanted to learn how to read. I loved reading and i couldnt see why that enslaved boy had to be portrayed that way but that was my interest in jefferson and a long time i read other appropriate books about monticello. At the time to think about slavery as well and to think of this person who wrote the declaration of independence would do that but at the same time was a slave owner, whats that about. Thats my interest started in school and continued through up until now i guess. Was your school segregated at that point or had you been integrated . Actually this is the school. I integrated thisparticular school. I integrated the schools of my hometown texas when i was in the first grade. By the time i got to the third grade things had ha changed. There were more black kids in school. I was there by myself then there were Supreme Court cases and so forth that a required some of the immediate integration of all the schools. There were more blacks at sanderson which is where i was by the time i read my first biography about jefferson so yes, it was new. Integration was new at the time and i had been the person who started that in our town. You write in your most recent book integrated that School C la ruby bridges but without the Police Escort. Without the Police Escort it was, my parents and the School District and i proposed the School Newspaper or not the School Newspaper, the Town Newspaper decided that we would make a big deal about it. They would make a big deal about it but i would just go and it would be as if nothing were unusual here. Of course it was very unusual. I remember during thatfirst year there , the delegations of educators and people coming to stand in the doorway to look at us. Me and the 25 or so white kids who were in the class with me. To see how this experiment was going. So it was intense time. I my mother said at one point i broke out in hives which might have been a Stress Reaction to things but its like anything, you grow up and i look back at that time and i focus mainly on i remember some of the bad times that i focus mainly on my overall feeling which was of excitement and being in school and learning things. Thats what galvanized me. I had friends. There was my white kids who were not nice to me but my teacher, mrs. Daughtry my first Grade Teacher and second Grade Teacher, these were the two formative years were just fantastic. They were wonderful to me and they did everything they could to make everything seem to work smoothly but you can imagine there were bumps. In her book, Annette Gordonreed has written three Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings, the second in 08, the hemingses of monticello. She won both a national Book Award and Pulitzer Prize for that book and her most recent along with other heater is most blessed of the patriarchs. Why did jefferson for to him self as most blessed of the patriarchs. That was how he thought of himself. He was comparing himself to the patriarchs. He had a farm and he had enslaved people and he had power. He had all these kinds of things. He was the patriarch of this particular area. And he saw himself that way. And of course we look at that as what . Thats why i insisted that we that on the book because we didnt want people thinking that we were calling him back but this was his identity. We look at this as negative and thats why i didnt want to be, i didnt want to be associated with calling him back but he saw himself as a person who had responsibilities. Thats what he meant. We look at the slaveholder and all of those things and the father who had control over his daughters and think this is a bit much. He saw it as here, all the people that im responsible for that im supposed to take care of and that was his image of himself. So i fixated on that phrase a couple of times, he calls himself a couple of times. It meant something to him and the book is about trying to figure out what that was, see what he meant by that. How long have we known s about Sally Hemmings . It depends on who we are. People in the africanamerican community have this story as an article of faith from the 19th century andreferenced it. So the story came out in the 1790s and with Sally Hemings name in 1902 so the story about it has been in the public sphere since the beginning of the 19th century. It was rediscovered in the 1950s when they found medicine hemings recollections. A novelist who was also a Jefferson Person as well found this and brought it to the attention of jefferson scholars, Madison Hemings recollections so it sheds a New Light. They didnt talk about it explicitly in their book but it sheds some New Light in the 70s, Sean Brody wrote about it in her biography of jefferson and she puts the recollections in the back of the book. Madison hemings was the one who said in 1873 he was the son of Thomas Jefferson. So that recollection now once it was in the public eye thats the first time i read it when i was 14 years old and that was the first time i had ever seen the narrative by a former r enslaved person and it interested me to think about someone in that kind of predicament because i knew slave owners had children that slaveholders and enslaved women that there were children born ilof connections between these people. Rape and other kinds of Connections Area i knew that but to have it talking about a person, an individual who i had been interested in before , this was a new rift on the story. How widespread are the descendents of jefferson and Sally Hemings . Very widespread. Madison hemings had about 12 kids. I dont think his son had children but his daughter had lots of kids so there are lots of people around the country who are descendedfrom , who are hemings descendents and i met a good number of them and corresponded with a good number of them. Ive been to a Family Reunion with them including some people from jeffersons legal family but its very widespread. Theyhad lots of kids in those days. The generation becomes exponential at some point so there are lots of them. Annette gordonreed, have they been officially recognized . I dont think so, the Monticello Association which is the association of jeffersons descendents with his wife, i dont believe they have but im almost certain they wouldnt because that would have been news, i would have heard something about it but i dont know how many of them are seeking that recognition. Because they have their Family Story and thats their Family Story. Thats pretty much their attitude about it. The Cspan President ial survey just came out, we do this every year after an election and two president s youve written about extensively,Thomas Jefferson came in at anumber seven again , consistently at number seven and the other president youve written about Andrew Johnson came in second to last. Right above jamesbuchanan. Do you thinkthose are accurate ratings . I would say so. When my book about johnson came out that was the one year he was the worst. Hes usually just above buchanan. I think thats about right. He was not a good president. He was a terrible person to follow lincoln. But the thing about buchanan and johnson, theyve got lincoln there and its kind of a tough comparison but what they both did things that theyre at the bottom of the list of president s. And jefferson should be on the top 10. The seventh is probably about right. Why is that in your view. Because probably louisiana. I think doubling the size of the country, that something like that happened during his presidency and it was his doing. That is a controversial thing because people think about what that meant for the extension of slavery and what its meant for indigenous people in that area. But you know, it is the beginning of the United States, the continental United States and it was a momentous thing. When i fill those surveys out, i dont think about necessarily about how i feel about a particular action and their policies. I think about how they exercised rpower in office and what they did that the things that were momentous that helped change the country. So i think currently that was a claim to fame for him. And his first inaugural address, first termwas a successful term. The second one there was the embargo and all kinds of issues. Term was perilous. The president but i think he definitely belongs in the top 10. I suppose because of the declaration, that they were talking about or speaking on, he gets points for that period as well. But that next thing you know hes not president then. Its sort of a cumulative to the store for him but i would say louisiana and some of the things he did during his first term and setting tone. This idea about the people as the sovereign rulers, and the jeffersonian is him which definitely continues even after these president and his acolytes in Madison And Monroe take their place after him and even jackson who he didnt see very much of. He took over John Quincy but jackson saw himself as a jefferson. He admired jefferson even though the jefferson didnt admire himso its the influence of jefferson. There is an age of jefferson that you think of that part of this residency. Were asked to write the bi Andrew Johnson biography by the american president s series or did you volunteer . I was asked to write. Marvelous lessons are junior who was on the board of advisors of the papers of Thomas Jefferson that were being edited, i knew him from that and the other editor, Paul Goddard had been the editor on the book i did it with Vernon Jordan. It was between two of them asking me to do this but both of them i knew and liked and it was only 40,000 words. I said sure. Is not something i would ever have out of the blue part of doing but once i started doing it, started looking into it i realized even though johnson is not a terribly pleasant person which shouldnt be a part of consideration but it alwaysis. You want to spend time with someone, writing about them. He was president during a singular moment and he made fateful decisions that put in place other people decisions so even if hes not attracted as a man, as a character, the role that he played as president , people should know about him because of it. The only southern senator not to leave the senate. Exactly and thats why e. Lincoln traded in his original vp for him because it was symbolic. Lincoln wanted to sort of send a message. To say see we can get back together. I can have this governor, but the southerner on my ticket. And we can go forward together but it was a disaster. The one thing i picked up in your biography was you referred to johnsons quote quirky independence. He came from nowhere. Essentially. He was a tailor and he didnt learn how to read until he was a teenager. His wife apparently taught him how to write so were talking about raw emission and thats a good quality in some ways. The stick doing business, the perseverance that he really didnt accept limitations. He knew that he came from a Workingclass Background that he would have been looked down upon by the grantees of society he didnt let himself be hampered by that. He held basically every office that you could have, alderman, mayor, governor. These bought his way up to Vice President and of course he becomes president because of a tragedy. But yes, he had grit. And you know, its theres not a lot of other things to commend him in my book. Although his loyalty to the union was important and thats the key thing but i think is Independence Streak is his grip and his loyalty to the union were the things that i could fasten on to say okay, there is something there. Along with being in a realworld capital time in the countrys history. Before we leave Andrew Johnson i want to ask about dolly. We dont really know much about her. There are people who claim dissent from johnson through her but theres not that much known. Its not like the Hemings Story and Becausethis Book was basically about his presidency , in the american president s series we necessarily talk about the personal lives of the president s but the main thing is to talk about their policy and the workings of their presidency so i didnt go off into detail in talking about those people. Back to the president ial Historian Survey of 2021 out by cspan. Andrew jackson has been dropping that only since 2011 when he was rated number 13. He is down to number 22,what does that say . It says that different people have generations respond to different public figures differently and over time because we have to questions in much the same way historians ask different anquestions of people in the past, situations in the past aced upon their preoccupation. And we have been very much interested in the question of indigenous people and we are interested in the subject of rape. That is an interesting figure because theres an age of jackson to. Its the rise of american democracy and it was the rise of american democracy but it was the rise of what people refer to and im not making this up, white mans government. The idea that white men should rule. Even in a situation and places where blacks had franchise, it was taken away from them so you have a situation where Theres Expansion of democracy white men, workingclass, lower classes are given power they didnt have before. Wehave by then they can all vote. But its a restriction on black. How do we celebrate this lies in one area and the restrictions on the otherside. The indian removal which is a policy before jackson but Jacksons Treatment of native americans has been seen as a problem. Im putting that mildly. Asyou fixate and think about se those issues more , he looks worse than he may have before. People were thinking about faith. They werent thinking about the fortunes of africanamericans during this time period. Or if youre just sort of assuming it was only one way to handle the situation with native americans, then he becomes a problematic figure so people like Arthur Schlesinger and others loved him because of the spread of democracy. And if you have this notion of progress where your sort of a historical process that inevitably leading to better better things you can say its okay that they were taking the franchise away from black people because eventually they would get it. As historians you Knowtheres Nothing thats inevitable. There is no inevitable and that were working towards. People can say yes, but we still have to deal with we cant think about what happens afterwards, we haveto think about whats happening in that particular moment. What do we think about the fact that blacks could vote before and now cant vote. What do we think about the notion of the white mans government. How do we deal with what theyre doing at that particular time not just saying eventually this is going to be all right. It makes sense that hes in decline but who knows . Jeffersons fortunes have risen and fallen over the years. Now hes sort of in a trough. But its not likely hes going to stay there. I think that these things come and go and generations are interested in different things but who knows we what we will be on to in the future. This survey goes out to 100 historians nationwide. Eight different criteria, t different areas. This is all available at cspan. Org but we do it every b four years after the end of one President And Donald trump is included for the first time on this list and he comes in naforth from the bottom. Hundred 97 points for abraham lincoln, 312 for donald trump. Is it fair to judge somebody six months after the end of his administration . As a historian i would say no. Thats current events, thats not really history. You want time to pass to have some perspective but i think some of the things that happened in the trump n administration, the january 6 insurrection and peoples belief, egging that on in some ways as a result of that i think colors peoples views about it and its an extraordinary circumstance ce because if were filling out a survey off of something like that, its a judgment. A lot of uthe judgment comes from that. So extraordinary events sort of shape the way people decided to do that survey and the way they answered it and i think thats one of the reasons and there are other things as well. The pandemic , i dont know that thats a problem but you guys asked the question so they responded on the basis of what as i said before what i think are some pretty extraordinary circumstances for a presidency. But ideally you want time to pass because you dont know what the effects of president ial actions will be. So those judgments i methink are less sound than judgments made about people further in the past by historians. Political science might be different if youre thinking about the effects of particular actions in contemporary time but with historians you need more time. June 19, 1865 quote, the people of texas are informed that in accordance with the proclamation from the executive of the United States, all slaves are free. This involves an absolute equality of personal rights and rights of property between our masters and slaves and the connection heretofore existing between them becomes that between employer and hired labor. The free men are advised to remain quietly under present homes and work for wages. They will nformed not be allowed to collect military posts and that they will not be supported in idleness either their or elsewhere. What is that. General Order Number three, forest rangers General Order that he issues when he comes to galveston in 1865, june 19, 1865 and 1855 to take control of texas and that area after the final surrender of the wconfederate army. So he issues this order that is theday that we have come to knowas juneteenth. That recently became a federal holiday. Of the civilwar ended in april. Well, they kept fighting. Lee surrendered in april and the army of the mississippi get kept fighting. In fact texas near brownsville which was one decided that the effort was for not and they surrendered thats when major goes in to take control of texas. With his troops obviously. As a texas native, did you grow up knowing about this juneteenth. I did not know the details about granger and all those kinds of things that weve been talking about but yes, i did grow up celebrating juneteenth. People have asked me when did i first and i dont remember at times when we were not celebrating, did not celebrate juneteenth. It was a family holiday. A community holiday. I dont think we talked very much. I dont remembertalking about it in schoolbut this was a holiday that carried forward mainly bypeople in the africanamerican community. I thought it was a black holiday. Rightly , it became a Texas State Holiday in 1980 but before then i thought saw it as just about the black community. This has been the slaves are free thats what i said as a kid and we barbecued and drank red Soda Water and through fire crackers. Little kids below the age of 10 blue firecrackers and sparklers and those kinds of things. Thats what i remember about the day. Rswhere did that come from . Ive heard two different things. Mostly people say that its just a Mashup Ofjune 19 and you take out the nine. And other people said that some people celebrate it over three days and they werent sure about the date. Whether it was the 18 19 or 20th so theyjust said juneteenth. I dont know that i buy that because the General Order number three is written and it was pronounced. There is the story of it being tapped on the door of an visible church in galveston that people knew what day it was. But i guess the best answer is its june 19 and june 17. You were recently in washington at the white house. Yes i was. I was there for the Signing Ceremony. I was stunned by the quickness with which this all took place. I thought i was pretty confident it was going to become a federal holiday but i thought it might be later and i got an Ugemail Invitation to, a text and then an Email Invitation to come down to the white house for the Signing Ceremony so i quickly hopped on a Plane Igand went down there and made it in time for the ceremony. In your most recent book on juneteenth you write that there is just so much to misunderstand about texas. Misunderstandings them from a general lack of attention to or even awareness of the aspects. Oundational what does that mean . When people think of texas and i certainly have had this , there was a transplant of texas in the war, just from reading peoplethink of texas as the land of cowboys. The sort of archetypal person is and i say it in the book constructed as a white man and that would be like a cowboy, a cattle rancher, i dont know many cowboys are black. Thats not the sort of Hollywood Presentation for the oilman. And the film giants probably exemplifies what people think about texas e. The stories they tell about texas that it was once there was a place of cattlemen and they had their way of life and then they sort of wildcat well people came in and nouveau riche people who challenged the cowboy and then all of a sudden they come together and they have this new texas but they leave out the part about plantation owners in east texas. The place where stephen f austin, they would bring people to texas to become cattle ranchers. He brings people to texas fully with the expectation theyre going to bring in slave people and that slavery would be protected and that texas would take its place as part of the cotton empire. So the foundational aspects of texas are the things that we dont think about very much. And it was clear that was the intention and the texans break away from mexico which has declared slavery legal even though they gave texas an exemption. Texas would never care about that so that was one of the reasons they decided to leave mexico and when they do, they set up a constitution that has provisions that expressly protect slavery which prevents african americans, people of african descent from integrating their without permission. Saying they can never become citizens so not thinking about texas as a Slave Society, of having been a Slave Society, sometimes the questions i get people are confused about certain things they hear coming out fof texas because they think these are racial problems, talking about race. What is the problem here . This is a place full of cowboys or its a white space. Its not a space of african americans or people who have anything to do with what we think of as the old south. People from georgia and mississippi, places like that , not so much texas when it actually was so the purpose of the book was to disabuse people of that notion that its all about the west. The west is important, i Cant Downplay that but east texas where i grew up, where my ancestors grew up in one case a couple of cases from georgia and mississippi was the Slave Society and the state is still dealing with all that today. Have you been able to trace back to her Family West and mark. Not thoroughly. I can place my family on my Mothers Side of texas at least 1820. My fathers erdied, the 1860s and maybe a little bit before that. So you know, i have deep roots in texas and my family did not. On either of my Mothers Side or my fathers side, they did not join the black diaspora or the lacs left the south and came from texas mainly, they went to california they went other places as well. My family stayed there. Im sort of the anomaly and having left texas to go to school in new hampshire. At dartmouth or to live outside of texas. Most of myfamily is in texas. When othey left the little town to go somewhere they went to dallas or san antonio. They didnt come to New York. Theydidnt go to la. So the roots go deep and most of my family is still there. Back to your book, onto page 101 quote, in 1967 there was a rerelease of the 1960 film the alamo. I was taken to see it with my best friend. Can you tell us that story . There was an exciting thing. It was a big deal to see a movie in those days. And very confusing to see movies because conroy was a little town outside of houston, 40 miles north of houston and it was between the two places but now course houston has reached out and encroached upon all of us in that area but it was an exciting thing. A treat to go see this movie about people that we already knew about. Jim bowie, Travis And Dede crockett. These were names that were known to us and my friend who was a boy, my best friend really was into both those characters. I heknew who they were and i knew who Jim Bowie was almost this sort of mythic semi godlike person with this knife that had this special powers or whatever. This is the knife, in real life he got into knife fights and the Bowie Knife became famous because of that. But we go to see the film and its very very heroic. A portrayal of the alamo as expected and there was otnothing in there that surprised me. Therewere things that made me uncomfortable. They had a character who was a slave and was portrayed not in a way that that made me uncomfortable. A sort of loyal slave. That truck that was in it. But for the most part it was this heroic presentation of this battle where the texans make this last glorious stand against the mexicans. Now, later on when im a Teenager Noand actually teenage years or even by the time probably when i was in college and i read about all of this i came to understand that the texans had reasons to fight for their independence but as i mentioned before one of them was to protect their slaveholders, protect texas and to make it as a Slaveholders Republic so how am i supposed to dealwith this because im africanamerican. My parents were ancestors were enslaved. In texas, how do i have this aerobic or keep this understanding about the alamo when i realized that one of the things that were fighting for was to keep my people in bondage. And so its these i have these enjoy the movie except for the partabout the enslaved person. I thought it was felt into all the rousing patriarchs, it had a nice rousing Theme Song and lawrence hardy was cute i thought but later on, i began to see the problem that i saw and in the book i talk about that how theres no way to reconcile this and how can you possibly see that . Good Afternoon And Welcome to Book Tv on cspan. Independent states 2021, this is our monthly program in depth where we invite one author to come on and talk about his or her book. This month is Harvard Professor, Pulitzer Prize winning author Annette Gordonreed. She orbegan her Writing Career in 1997, Thomas Jefferson and sally tran five an american controversy came out that year. The hemingses of monticello came out in 2008, that one also pulitzer and national Book Award. Andrew johnson, her biography came out in 2010. Most blessed of the patriarchs Thomas Jefferson and the empire of imagination came out in 2016 i. On juneteenth came out this year and pAnnette Gordonreed has also coauthored a book with the late Vernon Jordan which came out 2001 and has edited race on Trial Law and justice in american history. This is an interactive program and your voices are very important. We want to hear from you. Heres your chance to talk with Annette Gordonreed. 748 8200 if you live in the eastern central time zones. 7488201 for those of you in the mountain and pacific time zones and you can send in a text if thats easier. If you do please include your first Name And City this is for text messages only. 8903. 8 now, you can also contact us via social media, facebook, twitter. Just remember booktv is our Twitter Handle and we will scroll through those numbers again in case you didnt get a chance to hear them. We will give you another chance to do that. Annette gordonreed, it was in 2008 that you won the national Book Award. I happened to be there at that presentation that night and remember you walked by me and yyou just look a little bit stunned at what was happening when you won that night but we want to play just a little bit of your acceptance speech. I have to thank first two people who are not here. My Mother And Father Betty Jean Gordon and alfred gordon are responsible for everything that i am that is good. And gave me a sense of how important learning was. And frankly to be personal about it, it was sort of the journey that black people in thiscountry are on and thats what ive been trying to do with my scholarship and when i tried to do with this book. They have gone on and i hope theyre looking at me and i know they would bevery very proud of this moment. ThAnnette Gordonreed, who were your parents . My father was alfred gordon senior and my mother was Betty Jean Gordon. And they were texans. As i mentioned before they grew up in texas in a segregated society. My father went into the army as an 18yearold after he graduated from high school to help his sisters rather than go to school. Help his younger sisters, their mother had died when he was 11 and his father was an invalid he was the clear Army Person at the time and came out and had a series of businesses when i erwas growing up. My mother was a high school English Teacher who went to Selma College and tsu for Graduate School. And they got married and had known each other and livingston as kids. My mother had gone away but came back and so in some ways they had been, they had childhood sweethearts but got married. And when i was about six months old i was born in livingston and about six months old they moved to conroy texas thats the town that i write about on juneteenth. You also say you said your mother was a high school teacher. You write the effects of immigration onschoolchildren , black and white has received a great eaamount of attention over theyears. What has been much less considered is the Effect Moderation had on black teachers. Im talking in the book about the fact that my parents were i believe idealistic when they sent me to anderson school. This is the mid 60s and lack people were sort of on the move and there was the civil Rights Act and the voting Rights Act and i think they saw sending me to tintegrate this school as part of an advance in civil rights. Now, later on when they became i think disillusioned to some degree about the Way Integration had played itself out , and across the south in general my parents were very political people. We talked about politics a lot and they were surveying the scene not just in our town but all over the south. They became disillusioned because there was integration but it seemed to be blacks joining whites or whites didnt really have to change anything. In a way. It was integration of the kids but not integration of the teachers and across the south, my town and across the south many black teacherswere taken out of the classroom. For back after immigration and my mother remained in the classroom and she loved teaching and she stayed there. But i think that there was a bit of disappointment about that fact because she said to me she had gone to College And Grad school to teach black students. Isshe loved her like students and she loved her black students and one of the great things about this book is ive heard from her former students who write to me and tell me how much she meant to them as a teacher white and black. But she was a part of that generation that saw themselves as and in the vanguard that they were surprised that people would abuse in those days and uplift the race. That they were there to teach to sort of prepare black students for what they were going to be facing literally in a segregatedsociety and actually , not to live in that society but how to end it. How to make things better for black people and then when there was an integration and teachers were removedfrom the classroom , she gained a number of friends where she worked at the high school and they were wonderful friendships that grew out of that but it was very different what she had known as part of a group of black men and women who had this sortof mission. For these people who work in peril in some sort of way. Now the whites didnt work that way. The whites have been made for them so there was no, you didnt have to kickstart them to anything other than fulfilling their individual potential which she did but there was no notion this youre a group of people who have things to do. We have been on a journey june 19, 1865 way before this but certainly formerly. So i think she became a little disillusioned about this and the terms upon which integration was first carried out. Why did you get a lot of degree from harvard, have you ever practiced as a lawyer . Thats a long story. I got a Law Degree because for a couple of reasons. I think my experience integrating the schools of our town gave me an early look at law. Because i understood that this was something that had been made by the courts. And that lawyers were in the courts. And justices, these people who had gone to Law School, as Lawyers Sopart of it , i wanted to be awriter. Most of my life. Well, for all of my life really i thought law was a practical thing for me to do. So it was my experiences in integrated schools maybe focus on law. And the practicality of it the fact that my father admired lawyers and the fact that he would have had he had the opportunity while he was growing up he would have been a lawyer so i think it was probably the my father, that was part of it. But when i went toharvard was because of harvard. And i knew that lots of people who were able to do things who were government officials. Harvard is a place that really provides a public service, to a lot of my colleagues and people who work in the faculty before were people who went back and forth between government and academia. I practiced three years at Cahill Gordon and why dell which is a law firm. When i was counsel to a small City Agency called the board of corrections which is the Oversight Agency to the department of corrections. An agency that was the jail and my job for our job was to write minimum standards for the jail to make sure that those men were followed but it was a prisoners Rights Organization but had that bit. It was nelike a tiny agency that had a huge mandate. And no money to carry it out but we did the best we could do so i did, i practiced law about seven years either in private practice or in Government Practice as well in the city in New York. And of course are known as a historian and a History Professor but did you meet the new York Supreme Court Justice And Harvard Law School . Yes i did. Robert reed, my husband, we met at the black law students ckassociation picnic. The first week, i thought he was a goodlooking guy and we were in the same dorm. We were in the same section. Harvard is a big Law School and the first Year Section is divided up into four sections and he was inmy section. We were in the legal Methods Section so it seemed like everything was pushing us to be together and we used to sit in the lobby of our Dorm And Watch as ctv and other tv shows after we finished studying and we got married. We got engaged the second year in Law School. Then we got married after graduation. At harvard methodist church right there on harvard law School Campus. Robert reed is a justice at the New YorkSupreme Court. Would you be teaching in person this fall at harvard and what will you be teaching western mark i will be back and this year in the fall i will be teaching yes, were open for business and were going to get back into the swing of things. Im going to be teaching american legal history in the fall. And i am sharing that Entry Level hiring again. So i will have that class that will be just one class in the fall and the springtime, i will be teaching a class on constitutional Law And Empire and i will be teaching legal profession which is legal ethics in the spring. And peter is her coauthor on the most blessed of the patriarchs book. Ive taken of your time, lets hear from our colors. Jim and kelly and a california, you are first with Annette Gordonreed. At you for taking my call and professor, ive been fascinated listening to you its been wonderful. My question is about Sally Hemmings and Thomas Jefferson. What do we know about their relationship. Obviously he owned her and its a horrible thing to say but he owned her and wasthere love their . Was there just, she was handy . There were many women im sure it would have been more than happy to be his companion. I understand that he did promise his wife he would stnot remarry. But what do we know about the interpersonal as much as we can know about that. We dont know anything. Anything specific about the nature of their connection. There are people who say they could only be rape because as you mentionedhe owned her. Sally hemingss grandchildren, or greatgrandchildren and im trying to get the precise number youre right. Talked about how jefferson felt about her. He loved her. Mister jefferson loved her dearly they said and they dont talk about how she felt about him. And once she comes back to the United States which this is something that started when they were infrance. It took place with Sally Hemings and her brother james. It could have taken their freedom there. And if so she thinks about doing that but jefferson promises or if she comes back to there, jefferson promises or when they come back she would live a good life in monticello and any children they had would be free when they were 21. And she comes back with him. I dont know. She could come back with him because obviously shes trusted him to carry that out. But shes 16 years old and that could have been 16yearold though in 1860 is not the same as we think of as today but they were still people who were young and impressionable. And she comes back with him on that and what he was going to do, he did. But we dont know anything more about. I think about this is all in his power. Once he comes back to virginia shes totally in his power. It strikes me as unlikely that he would maintain a purely sexual interest in her for 38 years. That would be the first thought youd have in your mind about how great people act in those circumstances but we dont know. We dont have her words about him, his words about her. We just have as we said a greatgranddaughter talking about the two of them and talking only about him. When i mentioned this in monticello that when he dies she keeps items from him that were, that belonged to him and gives them to her children as an heirloom. I dont know what that means but i mention it because thats the only action that we know besides coming back with him that we know about her relationship to him so this is a mystery. This is something people will probably be plumbed in novels as it has been. Theres a novel about Sally Hemings in 19 78 but unless we find somematerial where not going to know much about. Brian texas, good afternoon. I was planning to ask another question but i had heard that Sally Hemings was a Half Sister of Jeffersons Wife. Heres my question, it was always a rumor that a black man was burned on the courthouse steps in 32. Do you know anything about that . In texas, sir . Yes, montgomery county. There was a hotbed of violent racism historically. Lets hear from Annette Gordon reed, Sally Hemmings Half Sister, the racism and courthouse. The daughter of John Wales was also the daughter of the father of Martha Wales, Jeffersons Wife. Sally hemmings was Jeffersons Wife Half Sister, so that is the case. His implicit bias, its understandable if you grew up in that place. It was a town that had a very very that has a very very tough racial history, and there was a man burned at the stake on the courthouse steps there. It was recorded in the newspaper. It was a person, you know, who had been accused of doing something, you know, to a white woman, found with a white girl in the woods and was lynched essentially. I talk about this in the book, there are instances of racial violence in the town that made it the kind of place that some of my relatives wouldnt even spend the night there. You know, because of its racial past. But this is a story that could be told about other towns, you know, not making an excuse for my hometown, but this story could be told in other places. I mean, burning at the stake is medieval; right . And this is something thats happening in the 20th century, you dont think of as taking place, but yeah, it had a very very tough history. Lisa, indiana, hi, lisa. Hi. Ms. Rita, im so impressed with your entire presentation here, taking up a Law Degree, very very much needed, as a result of what you have witnessed in your lifetime, and my question as a successful black single parent, i became victimized by a predator after 17 years, almost finished paying for my home, which has led me to be homeless, and i have a healthy history of success of productivity. My question to you is, i know this is a worldwide scam. I thought i was alone at first, but the agencies that im going to for help since the judge ruled that my attorney misrepresented me and awarded the forgers to take my home, forging my signature, let them get away with that. I apologize. We are getting a little off topic here. Im sorry for your situation. But what exactly did you want to ask . I wanted to ask because of her experience, wondering if she could guide me to the proper agency or, you know, or resource that host i think we got the point. Do you have any words for her Annette Gordon reed . No, otherwise im sorry for your situation, but there has to be legal aid, lawyers, even the Bar Association in your area that you should be able to connect to people that will be able to help you in that situation. If what you are saying is true, it sounds like a miscarriage of justice. I would contact a lawyer is the best answer i could give. Host margaret in fayetteville, arkansas, give your Question Or Comment for historian Annette Gordon reed. Caller thank you very much for being on the program. Thank you very much for having professor Gordon Reed. I strongly believe that the desire to protect the institution of slavery is one of the reasons we have the declaration of independence. And just trying to read more deeply into what really happened in our history, ive come to believe that. So today as the 4th of july, i have really mixed feelings. Im trying to digest what this means that at the beginning of our country, this tremendous desire to protect the slave holders and the institution of slavery. Im bothered by that so much. How should i regard this . I was influenced by learning about the james Summerset Case and other things, the times, the 1770s, what was happening here and North America host all right. Margaret, i think we got the point. Annette Gordon Reed . Guest well, there were people who wanted to protect slavery in 1776. I mean this comes through i think looking at the Constitution And Debate over ratification of the constitution lays this out much more clearly. You see south Carolina And Southern States who are adamant about coming to an arrangement that would protect the institution of slavery. 1776, the american revolution really gets started in boston. It gets started in new england. There were certainly people who were interested in protecting slavery. I think they wanted to they basically were trying at first to get a change in their relations the situation in great britain. Great britain was not just picking on the 13 colonies. It was in the process of reforming the empire in general, not just in the United States, but in the caribbean and other places where they had holdings, and it was the american colonists were the ones who said we want to go. I mean, people in the caribbean dont do it. They have slavery down there, but they also have a majority of black of black people in the caribbean so that could be a reason why they didnt want to go out. But there were mixed motives. I dont think it was just about slavery. It certainly wasnt about somerset because somerset didnt apply. Somerset basically says that, you know, slavery is so odious that you have to have positive law in order to justify it. [inaudible] had positive law. They were not doing this on the basis of common law. They actually passed their statutes. Theres a code. So jefferson doesnt talk about somerset. It doesnt enter in any of his papers. Hes not they are not sitting around worrying about that particular case. But certainly, yeah, there were people who wanted to protect slavery, but there were also patriots who were interested in who were complaining about all of the changes that the british empire was trying to put in place as they were not just the 13 colonies, but the empire overall. Host is that going to be part of your Fall Course on american Law History . Guest absolutely. Well definitely talk about this. Host we have a text here from scott in arkansas. What is your interpretation of the current political acrimony over critical Race Theory . As someone who has used many different varieties of critical theory in Graduate School from feminist theory to queer theory, im shocked this analytical lens became political red meat to the republican base. Guest well, it is kind of perplexing because critical Race Theory was something that one of my classmates, we were classmates together at harvard Law School, in the same section with my husband, as a matter of fact, and Derek Bell, the late Derek Bell who was a Harvard Professor and eventually went to nyu. They started this, and they were some of the foremost proponents of it. This is a law School Class. It is things that are taught in Law School. It is not taught in all Law Schools. So i was surprised that the thought that critical Race Theory is being taught in k through 12, its about law and how despite changes, law has embedded race in the race is embedded in the legal system, and the critical Race Theory is about trying to unpack that, to parse those issues. I think what people have done is sort of made any talk about race, critical Race Theory. You know, critical race theorists talk about race, but not all people who talk about race are critical race theorists. I think most of the people who are talking about race to the extent they are i guess they are when they talk about slavery and so forth k through 12 are not doing theory. You dont do theory with 6 and 7yearolds and 8 and 9 and im not being disingenuous. I dont think thats whats going on. I think theres a concern about talking about topics from what i have read and what people have said that make white students feel bad. So if you are talking about slavery and they know that a vast majority of slave holders were white in the United States, but now somebody is going to call and say, you know, africans had slaves too and people that they captured, they sold to the europeans. Were talking about americans and the relationship that we have to one another as citizens, and we have had since, you know, since the time North America well, since 1776, want to say that. But to say that you Cant Talk about those things because it will make white students feel bad means that you Cant Talk about history period. I mean, they are not responsible. You know, no one should be teaching them that they did these things, but you have to be able to say this stuff happened. How do you talk about say for example [inaudible] without reading the constitution . If you read the constitution, it is going to talk about race, and there will be white kids who might feel, you know, well, how did my great great grand father, they were texans, how did they respond to this . And they responded by saying yeah, it was great. You know, black people should be slaves or that black People Cant be citizens here, then i feel bad about it, but Theres Nothing Thats Part of life. I mean, life is not all about feeling good about yourself all the time. And its also an opportunity to learn, to say look, those people had ideas with which i disagree. I want to do better. I want to do different things. Youre not held hostage to all of that. This is a bit off of your question here, but im perplexed im as perplexed as you are about it, other than a real concern about airing these stories because it kind of does explain some of the inequalities that exist in society today, and if people dont people dont want to admit that things have happened to african american people that were unfair, that were not right. And things have happened to other people that are unfair. But im not saying we shouldnt talk about that either. So im surprised by it as you are, and i have a feeling that theres going to be there will be pushback against this, some of this legislation. Some of it will probably be declared unconstitutional. Teachers are a pretty [inaudible] bunch if my mother and her friends are any example. They will find a way to talk about the truth. As long as they are telling the truth, its the truth, that there was slavery. Its the truth that there were jim crow laws, that when i was a kid, when i went to the movies, we had to sit in the balcony. When we went to the doctors office, there was a separate waiting room. And there were people alive who, you know, this actually happened. Theres no point at hiding that. If people are ashamed of it, thats a good response because then you say were not going to do this anymore. Were not held hostage to what people did in the past, and we want to do something better and be better. Host you are watching Book Tv on cspans 2, monthly in depth program, one author, two hours. This month it is Harvard Professor pulitzer winning historian Annette Gordon reed. Vic San Diego sends in an email, the one time we visited in texas, we noticed the Texas State Flag is flown on staffs above the american flag. Is there a mythology among texans about the States History that looms larger than regional attachments in other states . Guest oh, i would say so. This is an interesting thing. When i was growing up, i recall seeing the confederate flag what i learned was the confederate Battle Flag actually only occasionally. The last time i was in texas i mean, not the very last time i was in texas, but in the past few years, i was in texas, and i did i was going around in the country, riding around and visiting, and i saw more confederate flags on that trip than probably id seen in my entire childhood, growing up in texas. I mean something has happened where the confederate identity or this and it may mean something different now because its been attached to sort of current day political things. Maybe thats what it is. But certainly when i was growing up, it was all about texas. You know, the United States, yeah, thats great. But the loyalty, the fixation was on texas as a state and the sort of chauvinism about texas as a state that you see in white texans and black texans. A person from another state was asking me the other day, who told me that they celebrate Emancipation Day on a different day, january 1st, and then there are people in virginia who do it do something in april; right . They said how did texas manage to have their day of celebrating emancipation become a federal holiday . It is because of the tenacity and the chauvinism i think of texans who kept celebrating this holiday from 1866 up until today, and then when they left texas, they would go to other states and say, yeah, theres this holiday that we celebrate, and you should celebrate it too. I dont know that south carolinians and other people when they go places insist that people celebrate holidays that they celebrated back in South Carolina or florida or other places. Yeah, so this texas this mythology about texas, theres no question that when i was growing up, we were raised to think that we were special people because we were from texas. And i think many black people, you know, took that seriously, and many white people have taken that seriously. And i dont think its any coincidence that we end up with juneteenth as the holiday because, you know, black texans kept this alive and were very insistent that this meant something. And i think it does. I mean, obviously i think it does mean something to the country as a whole. My hope is that juneteenth will be sort of an umbrella, an Umbrella Holiday for the celebrations of emancipation in other places as well. But i think you are right, there is a Texas Chauvinism that shows itself pretty clearly. Host linda in san francisco, you are on with the author Annette Gordon reed. Thanks for holding. Caller thank you. It is a great program, cspan. Dr. Reed, you know, youre an american treasure. Thats all i have to say. And you mentioned earlier your surprise at the passage of the juneteenth as a federal holiday. And i wanted to know, do you think this was maybe a way to appease black people to maybe kind of quiet the narrative about reparations or the asian hate crime bill that was passed unanimously and very quickly . You know, i just wanted to know what do you think about that . I hear that on social media a lot. Host linda, thank you. Guest well, you know, if people think that, thats a very naive thought. I mean, the passage of a federal holiday is an important thing. Juneteenth is important symbolically. We live by symbols, symbols arent unimportant. But voting rights, those kinds of things, hate crimes, those are existential questions, and people might have thought that, but it would be a very naive thought because i just cant see any way that anybody would oh, weve got juneteenth so now we dont have to vote. No. But im not going to underestimate, you know, what people Peoples Sense of how they can get over on other people, but its not going to work. If thats the hope, it is a naive hope. I think the juneteenth holiday almost became a holiday last year. There was one senator who had been blocking it. This time he decided to let it go. When i said i was surprised, i thought it might become a federal holiday. I thought it would be later in the year. I was taken aback. I was sort of going along on my virtual book tour. Was it tuesday, the house voted. On wednesday, the senate voted. The president came back and did this. The surprise was the speed of which. I was sort of going along saying oh one day this might become a federal holiday. Im thinking maybe later in the year, and just like that, it seemed to come to fruition before the blink of an eye. Host it was serendipitous that your book came out right before that, too. Guest yes, yes, because when i was working on my book, back in the pandemic here in New York city, i was not i knew that the Holiday Thing was out there, but that was not it was certainly not a primary motivation for writing the book or thinking i could influence that in any way, but it was good timing. Host jackie in gary indiana, can you talk about how your jeffersons and Hemmings Research has received more acceptance since its first publication and why the writing of history has to be tested and rewritten . Guest well, my first book came out in 1997, about Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings. It was more about actually it was about historians, about the historical profession and the way certain people who were writing about jefferson primarily handled this particular story. That was my real interest to say look, you know, because i was not interested in proving this one way or another, but one thing i did know was that historians had been treating madison hemmings recollections, the recollections of other people, in an unfair way, and so thats what my first book was really about. The dna that came out in 1998 corroborated what i was saying, and so that led to general acceptance of this story. And then people just sort of i think most people went on to talk about other things, about, you know, thinking about the gender aspects of it, thinking about other aspects of slavery at monticell and the sort of Sea Change in the handling of it. This something ive said before, people talk about revisionist history, im sure people have heard that phrase. This is just revisionist history. Usually said as a pejorative, but all historians, good historians are reveez ig things. Are revising things. They are not just telling the same story over and over again like you read to your kids at night and, you know, if you skip a line or whatever, wait a minute, go back to that part, they recognize, but they are seeking something different than what historians are doing. Were constantly finding new information, finding new information, and also we ask different questions about things. I mean, if youre writing about the republic of texas, and if you dont care about a question of race, i mean, for many years, people would have written about that and not fixated on the provisions in that constitution that explicitly promotes slavery and protects it or the provisions that said african americans cant, you know, cant immigrate there. Free black People Cant and they cant be citizens. If you dont care about those topics, and for most of history, people writing about the Texas Republic Wouldnt dwell on that. They wouldnt think about it, but im hardpressed to think of any Graduate Student or any young person, or in the last 20 to 30 years, you know, or more than that, maybe, who wanted to write about the republic of texas, who would not pause over those things because they understand that those provisions shape the society. You cant just say black people dont count, you know, or that it doesnt matter. Were only going to talk about the things that deal with whites. Those words are in the document, and this generation of people would pay attention to that. Maybe in the future there will be some other things. The pendulum may swing back and people wont be interested in that. So but, you know, history is constantly evolving. The writing of history is constantly evolving, as we as i said one, find new information; and two, begin to ask different questions, and very often those questions go out of the things that are taking place today. You think to ask that. What does it mean to say that, you know, people of african Descent Cant be citizens . How does that shape a culture . What would it be like, even after slavery is over, how do you get rid of that racial hierarchy thats put in place by those words . Does that explain the lynching, you know, burning somebody on the courthouse square, in the 20th century or other kinds of lynchings . You see the connections between things that are happening today if you are expansive in your understanding about the past, and so were constantly looking for those things that help you explain the foundation of a society, the origins of a society, and so thats why history has to keep changing. Host about 30 minutes left in our conversation with professor Annette Gordon reed, if you would like to dial in, 202 is the area code. 7488200 for those of you in the east and central time zones. 2027488201 if you live in the mountain and pacific time zones. If you want to send a text 2027488903. Please include your first name and your city, if you do send that text. And our next call is from robin in elk ridge, maryland. Hi, robin. Caller hello, dr. Gordon reed. Why do you think the leaders of the confederacy did not take more seriously the economic failure of the republic of texas as a place with essentially only cotton as a crop, a one Crop Economy . Guest uhhuh, and also some nations overseas who were reluctant to trade with them because they were so explicitly a slave holders republic. The united States Constitution talking about persons of health in service but the Texas Constitution is explicit in all of this. People are stubborn. And available evidence indicates that there were always people who wanted texas to become a part of the United States. The plan was to leave Mexico And Hope for annexation by the United States and then eventual state hood. So you know, for the people who wanted just the republic, thats one group of folks. The people who thought this was going to become a part of the United States, that some of this would [inaudible] they would join a larger economy and they would go forward as part of the United States of america. So that for lots of people, that was the plan all along, so the failures of the republic may not have been surprising to them because they wanted something the ultimate goal was something else, and that was to be state hood. Host roberta from houston, texas. Caller im a retired History Teacher here in texas. I have two points to make, dr. Gordon reed. One, and you kind of evaded the issue, but critical Race Theory is going to be coming up this month in the state legislature, and they want to forbid it. I think that you should put all your [inaudible] and come to austin and speak about the issue. You kind of glossed over it which i hope you will give more thought to. As a retired History Teacher, i have a concern too. When is it age appropriate to bring up these issues, the true history . We have a book that states forget the alamo [inaudible] the true history. You keep mentioning the State Constitution and this constitution and that. Thats much too high a level for Grade School kids to be reading. To get practical, i wish you would give it more thought. I dont want you to say it now, but i do think thats going to be a crucial question that someone from the republicans here in the state would want to hear from you caller i think host i think we have gotten the point. Annette Gordon Reed. Guest when is it appropriate . Age appropriate to talk about race in history . A writer who has written a book about jefferson, a biography of jefferson for people who are 5 to 7 years old. And she talks about slavery, and she talks about Sally Hemings, and she does it in a way thats brilliant and its completely age appropriate. I think you could talk about i dont see why you couldnt talk about or raise the question about the Texas Republic in younger grades. I dont think that theres a problem you know, not reading the constitution, but there are ways to write anything, you know. I mean, and there i have seen really good books for young people, for kids, from the book im talking about now certainly through elementary school, middle school. A writer has done a wonderful Youth Biography of Thomas Jefferson that talks about all this stuff, you know, in an age appropriate way. I think kids i think theres a way to do it. As for coming down there to talk about all of this, i think that there are plenty of people in texas who could hold down the fort on that matter. I do know that people have gotten very very aggressive about this, but this is for the citizens of texas to stand up stand up against censorship and stand up against the idea that you Cant Talk about you Cant Talk about the truth. Im of the mind that kids are a more understanding than we think they are, but i have seen so many examples of writing about these issues, about race and about slavery in childrens books to think that it is not i mean, i think it is not the case that you cant that there are not ways to bring these subjects to the fore in a sensitive and reasonable way for young kids. Host another text for you, no city or name, is renaming a school from jefferson middle school, like so many in the u. S. , to jeffersonhemings middle school a solution that prompts the conversation rather than ripping away history . Guest i dont see any reason to call it jefferson hemings. You name a school because of a contribution. Thats why you would name a school after jefferson. I wouldnt say any purpose i wouldnt say that saying that jefferson Hemings School solves the issue with that. I dont have a problem with a Jefferson School so long as people talk about all aspects of jeffersons life. Because i mean, hes a person who had such an effect on so many aspects of american history that its kind of hard to move him to the side in a way. So i am for in that situation, you know, if youre named that, to keep that name, if you want. On the other hand, jefferson himself said the earth belongs to the living, and every generation of people has a right to pick its heroes, and if you want to rename your school for Somebody Today who is doing something that you think is that represents your generation, represents your place better, then i can he would probably say and i would say as well do that. But i wouldnt see it as imperative, the denaming as we call it at harvard versus renaming. But jefferson hemings, i wouldnt be opposed to it, but i dont think it solves the problem with jefferson. These are the things that people are concerned about with jefferson as a slave holder. Host kate in sacramento follows up on that in a sense. Her question is your thoughts on removal of statues of prominent confederates . Guest i have been on the record to say that i dont see any reason why there should be statues of confederates in public spaces in america, i mean, not just a racial question, i mean people who fought against the United States of america, who tried to destroy the United States of america, battlefields were coming up gettysburg is on Everybodys Mind at this point and vicks burg too, as a matter of fact, battlefields is one thing. Cemetery is one thing. But public squares, i mean i dont see i think it is an assault to union soldiers. I mean, you could talk about reconciliation, but we cant make we cant make that choice for the people who were killed and who died during that war. There are the values of the confederacy which are announced in its constitution and in the Cornerstone Speech of alexander stevens, the Vice President that it in fact says that africans were meant to be enslaved, thats the Cornerstone Slavery is the cornerstone of a society. Theres nothing that we could get from them that we cant get better from other people without all the baggage thats there. And so confederates, i dont have a problem with a removal of those statues. We will continue to learn about them. I mean most people dont learn history through statues or buildings that are named. In the history books, we will always talk about robert e. Lee and Jefferson Davis and what happens, their secession from the union and the attempt to, you know, to the destruction of the United States of america. We will talk about those kinds of things. But it doesnt have to be with statues. I would be for removing those statues from public spaces, private property, cemeteries, battlefields, thats different. Host does it surprise you that right across the river here from d. C. In arlington, virginia, the Jefferson Davis highway existed until about a year ago . Guest well, it doesnt surprise me, but you know, its an attempt as its been said to reconcile a country that had been torn apart, but going too far, going too far with that, and not thinking about the feelings and the sensibilities of one part of the citizenry that is to say, you know, african americans who had been enslaved in the confederacy and unionists, white people in the north and the south who remain loyal to the american nation, which when we talk about johnson, that was a good point about him is that he believed in the american union. Host back to kate in sacramentos text, she had a followup question. Who is your next planned Book Subject . And might i suggest Clara Barton or lucy stone, both outspoken abolitionists . Guest well, i had a couple projects that i had to interrupt to do juneteenth here, that i ended up pushing aside for the moment. Im doing a second volume of the heming Family Story. Im taking them from charlottesville, after jefferson dies in 1826 and taking them up through the civil war, vicksburg figures in that and the first couple decades of the 20th century, because things change after that, World War i, the modern world begins and the old world that they were apart of, they are not a coherent Subject Matter to me anymore after that, maybe mention some people who continue on, but basically ending them there, so the heming Family Story. Im finishing a Jefferson Reader on race that ive been preparing for a while, and i really want to knock this out pretty quickly. I basically have collected all of his writings, significant writings on race. You know, not just on the state of virginia, but looking at his farm book, looking at his memorandum book, his letters, to call out every all of his discussions and his comments about race, and i do sort of annotated, i do a commentary about these kinds of things. Thats what im working on now. And that will probably and my editor has been after me for a while to do a book about texas, a big book about texas. This will take a career for me to do all three of these things, and thats those are the next things down the pipe. Host john in laurel, New York. You are on the air with Annette Gordon reed. John, before we begin, turn down the volume on your tv, otherwise we get an echo. All right . Caller yes. Host go ahead. John is gone. Lets try evelyn in philadelphia. Evelyn . Youre on the air. Please go ahead. Caller hello . Host hi, evelyn. Caller yes, i have a question. I want to make two comments. My husband james and i have been doing Genology Research all of our life, and my husband, his grand father was killed by the union troops for stealing horse cord. That made national attention. Im going to stick a pin in that. What my concern is and what im looking at is the fact that were both in our 80s, we have a story to tell, and we tell it every chance we get. We sit the kids down and tell them a story about our ancestors. But i found through Dna Testing that my father was married the second time, married my mother the third time, and he was in pittsburgh and got involved with the leasing system. My father was born in 1894. And he was jailed. And he was jailed for three months working the coal mine, so ive been doing the research on that. Very cruel system. They talk about the 13th Amendment and how that abolished slavery, and it did not, because of that Convict Leasing system, people were put back into bondage and treated worse than during the slavery times. Could you speak on that in terms of why do we always say oh, yes, the 13th Amendment got rid of slavery, but it did not because it existed because of the Convict Leasing system. Could you respond to that, please . I appreciate it. Good luck to you. I have all your books. Im sitting here right now with juneteenth, easy to read not that many pages and i thank you for that. Host can you tell us a little bit about you and your husband . Caller weve been married 65 years. We were very close to our grandparents. When we were kids coming up, you didnt ask elderly people questions, but one day i said to my grand mom. I said grand mom were you a slave . She said no i was not a slave but i had to wash the white womens feet. I said to my grandma you had to wash the white womans feet . I didnt have the wherewithal to ask her the ladys name. I found out through the research. As i said, we travel all over the world. We do research on the black people where we travel, but getting away from my story. I had a nephew that had a dna test, and this young lady reached out to him, and they communicated back and forth, back and forth. Finally she said im looking for my grand father. He said oh yeah . And she asked him these questions. He said well, you need to talk to my aunt honey. Thats what she does. So he said is it okay if i give her your Telephone Number . I said yeah sure. He gave her my Telephone Number. She called and we talked. She said im looking for my grand father, and i wondered if you could help me. I said let me get my pencil and paper. She said i will email it to you. She did and my husband he was on the computer, he said honey are you sitting down . He gave me the paper, and i found out that this young lady, her grand father is my father, and so and thats what started me doing the research. I got records on him being in jail. He was arrested for vagrancy, and my Father Wasnt allowed to read or write. Weve got stories to tell, so were trying to get our program together, get our paperwork together so we can pass this on to our future generations. So thats what we do all the time. Then we teach it to schools and teach kids. If someone says im looking for so and so, i just did some research for a lady who theyre very prominent in this area. And i found out i had never done research where i found a slave who was related to someone who gave a narrative under that when they were doing slave narratives and [inaudible]. Host evelyn, thank you for that extra background. We appreciate it. Guest it is an interesting point. It is true, the 13th Amendment, the things that happened in prisons and Convict Leasing systems and other ways, vagrancy i think being arrested for vagrancy, they tried to enact laws that brought things as closely back to slavery as possible, when were talking about in the aftermath of the civil war down in the south. I think the Principle Difference is well, the Principle Difference is that it allows people to be worked, you know, at the will of others, the Convict Leasing system, and even prison now, but people arent sold. The difference is that one of the things that people celebrated juneteenth, one of the things that was important to them was the end of the legal ability to sell peoples children or to sell peoples spouses or their brothers and their sisters away from one another. You know, slavery was a system of working without pay, but being labelled property meant that if an enslaver died and he had children, enslaved people could be separated amongst these children who would live in disparate places and people would be separated from their families. Estate sales, sales for, you know, money, just whatever, that kind of action those kinds of actions were traumatizing to enslaved people, and after the end of slavery, one of the first things that people do besides going to the Friedmans Bureau and having their marriages [inaudible] was to look for relatives, go around and try to find my mother, my kids, my sister, my brother, and i really do think that one of the Reasons Juneteenth has become one of the aspects of juneteenth that kept it alive for years is that it is a family holiday. People come together. They gather together in families, and you can go through airports in the summer, and you will see black people walking around with, you know, tshirts on, the reed Family Reunion, the shaw Family Reunion, this notion of gathering people together im convinced grows out of the trauma and the desire to keep people together because for hundreds of years, in slavery, people could be separated, and the phrase never to be seen again. You see that a lot, and the narratives that she was talking about wpa narratives you see that, never to be seen again. Just imagine that if you i mean we lose relatives to death and sometimes estrangement, but not somebody coming in and saying you know, we need money, so your three children, were going to sell them to louisiana or whatever. That kind of thing left a mark, and people have been trying to recoup, to sort of regroup from that ever since. Host Annette Gordon reed, the pierces are a prominent retired couple in san antonio. I have met them several times at the Texas Book Festival in austin, but mrs. Pierce emailed me separately to say that the Texas State History museum has abruptly cancelled the speech by the authors of the new book on the alamo i dont know if you are familiar with that book, and texas is trying to keep the truth from competing with myths. This is crazy and related to censorship. I know we touched on forget the alamo a minute ago, but i wanted to acknowledge that email. Guest i have heard of that situation. It is kind of like what they call the [inaudible] effect. I think when you draw attention to things like this, this will probably make people go out and read the book even more. People dont like to have ideas and things kept from them, but thats an unfortunate situation, if thats from the things that i have actually read about it. I havent read the book yet. That should be on my that should be on my night stand next. Host will you be on the Book Festival circuit this fall . Guest i think so, yeah, im supposed to be on the Book Circuit Festival in the fall. Im hoping that well be able to be there in person. I mean, the virtual things are nice, but it is also nice to actually be out and meet people. You know what those atmospheres are like. It is a lot of fun. Host texas is in person this year too. Neville in cleveland, ohio. Go ahead. Caller my question for professor Gordon Reed is related to Sally Hemings. We all know the name Sally Hemings and we know her story. What i miss is a visual, an image, a depiction of Sally Hemings. You see from time to time descriptions that she was white and that she had long straight hair down her head, that she was three quarter european and a quarter african. But i dont see many sketches. I dont see many images. I dont see many pictures which depict Sally Hemings. Can dr. Reed say something about that for me, please . Host thank you, neville. Guest we dont have any depictions of her. People have imagined ideas of what she looked like and do those reproductions of her, but we dont have any pictures. Theres nothing to go on. I mean, we dont even have pictures we dont have any images of Jeffersons Wife. I think there may be a couple silhouettes of her, but strangely enough, she either didnt sit for portraits or the portraits were destroyed. I mean her Fathers Home was destroyed by fire. It is but it is interesting that apparently didnt sit for a portrait as a married woman which people of that class would have done. We dont know what there are only descriptions of her. This is sort of an odd thing. These two sisters completely different at different places in the hierarchy, neither of them do we have any visual images of, and we would expect to have one of Martha Wales jefferson. Maybe not sally heming. I mean the first images of the Hemings Family are her grandchildren that we have. But we dont have portraits of martha or of sally. Host this is a text from ann page, a high school social Studies Teacher at hamilton high school in hamilton, mass. Dr. Reed my tenth Grade Colleague and i have assigned on juneteenth as the summer reading assignment for our tenth Grade Honor students in making the decision regarding this years assigned book, we had conversations with students, mostly white who were involved with a local human rights committee, a few students expressed to us that they felt strongly that books assigned about race, gender, or identity should only be assigned from authors who identify as part of the community they write about. As a teacher, i respect and understand where these students are coming from, but i disagree in part with their arguments. I want to explore this argument further this Summer And Wonder about your thoughts on this belief. Thats a lot of a lot to digest there. Guest so the idea is that the students only want books by people who are writing about a community from which they come from. In other words, they dont want books by white people about black people . Host i think thats where were headed here. Guest well i dont these are young people. I dont agree with that. Some of the best books about slavery, for example raciallybased slavery in the United States have been by white authors. But i understand their desire to probe sort of personal use people who are writing about personal issues who are part of the community. Juneteenth is a history book, but its a memoir as well. And to talk about growing up as a black person in, you know, in texas, i could understand why more personal things, why they would want the individual to be a member of the community, but just if you are talking about straight history, you know, white authors write about, you know, black people. I mentioned david blithe wrote a book about frederick douglas. I write about Thomas Jefferson, but the Memoir Part of it, if its more personal, i understand i understand why they would have that particular view. One thing i want to say is a number of people have called me dr. Gordon reed. Im not a doctor. I am even though i dont have a phd. Im a juris doctor. Im just professor Gordon Reed or ms. Gordon reed or annette depending on how well you know me. Host the next call for Annette Gordon reed is from martha. Go ahead, martha. Caller hi, peter. I missed part of the program, so i hope im not repeating a question from someone else for professor Gordon Reed. Im a retired maryland public schoolteacher, and im very upset about the controversy of 1619 project and the Pulitzer Organization offering 5,000 to underpaid schoolteachers to teach, whatever thats supposed to be. Im really quite upset about it. I would like her knowledge or her opinion, please. Host thank you, martha. Guest well, you know, i know this is a controversial subject for people. You know, i dont know about paying people. I dont know anything about that program or what it is that shes referring to. I think that its a point of discussion, you know. Its a point of discussion. 1619 project from what i, you know, what ive read is a number of essays, not just one essay. I know the Lead Essay was the one that caused the problems for a number of people, and other people thought it was problematic for one reason or another. I think it should be discussed, and i think that there are other parts of it that i think would be very illuminating to students and that could be useful if there are opposing viewpoints, then that could be discussed as well. I dont think as we were talking before about forget the alamo and other instances, i dont think that censoring things or stopping things from being discussed is the way to go. You need if its out there, its in the public eye, students at an appropriate age should be made aware of those kinds of things and to discuss it, and if the teachers if there are points you think are problematic, you can raise those. You can bring opposing views. You can do i think that its much better to discuss things thats the bottom line i have on this. Host were going to close with this text. Hi annette, remember me . David hooper, 1977. I just texted mark evans to say you were on. Question, have you seen your mural on the square . What did you think . Love your work. Guest thank you. This is amazing. David cooper and i were very good friends. Yes, i have seen the mural. I have also learned that they are going to name a school after me in my hometown, which shows you some of the changes that have taken place in that town over the years. Im all for it. People have been very kind and very supportive of me. Host give us very quickly we have 30 seconds left. Give us a history of this mural. What this is . Guest oh, some admirers and my mothers friends got people to put up a mural up in my hometown, and they put up a bust up of me as well. I went down for the unveiling of the bust. I wasnt there for the mural. But it is wonderful. I wish my parents were there to see all of this. Host which school do you know will be named after you . Guest an elementary school that they are building. They will open in august of 2022. Host Annette Gordon reed, we often ask our authors who are on their favorite books and Annette Gordon reed sent us this list, two by james baldwin, the devil finds work, notes of a native son, experiment in autobiography, kindred by butler, the little prince, and a single man by christopher isherwood. Currently reading a book called wake the women led slavery revolts by rebecca hall, the cruelty is the point and the papers of Thomas Jefferson, that she is currently reading. Annette Gordon Reed has been our guest here on Book Tv for the past two hours. We very much appreciate your time. Guest thank you for inviting me. Weekends on cspan 2 bring you the best in american History And Nonfiction books. Saturday on american history tv, at 2 00 p. M. Eastern, on the presidency, a discussion on the results of cspans Historian Survey of president ial leadership with historians richard norton smith, douglas brinkley, edna medford. The survey ranked president s from best to worst in 10 different categories. At 8 00 p. M. Eastern, on lectures in history, turn of the century women journalists face societal pressures to balance traditional femininity and having a career in journalism. Iowa State University Professor talks about the challenges these pioneering women overcame. Book tv features leading authors discussing their latest nonfiction books. On sunday, starting at 8 00 a. M. Eastern, hear from authors attending freedom fest in rapid city, south dakota, including new hampshirebased Author And Attorney Carla Garrett on her short stories, opinion pieces, and speeches in her book the ecstatic pessimist. At 9 45, national Review Columnist John Fund with his book our broken elections in which he argues that liberals used the Covid19 Pandemic to change the Election System and make it more vulnerable to fraud. At 3 05 p. M. , economic Historian Mccloskey with her book bettering humanonics which looks at a new kind of economics that focuses on science and better understanding of human action. At 4 35 p. M. , Futurist And Economist talks about the future dominance of artificial intelligence in his Book Gaming ai. At 10 00 p. M. Eastern, on afterwords, conservative Podcaster And Journalist Ben Shapiro discusses his new book the authoritarian moment in which he argues the progressive left is pushing an authoritarian agenda in america. Hes interviewed by nationally syndicated Radio Talk Show host. Watch american History And Book tv every weekend on cspan 2 and find a full schedule on your Program Guide or visit cspan. Org. including Democrat Dean phillips of minnesota pretty. At that very moment when the Capitol Police Officer announced that we should take cover, stood and at the back of the gallery, second level. In representative from arizona was rejecting to the slate of electors and at that moment i simply shouted out, at the top of my lungs, this is because of you. I screamed it. This is because of you predict. And i think, i was representing four years of Angst And Anxiety and anger, and many of us saw this coming from a mile away. And i think a representative probably millions of americans who felt the same way. At the very moment, the entire country including myself recognize the fragility among the democracy read i have great appreciation for the traditions of the Congress And Decorum and i do not like to violated vet, i do not regret it because it was what i was feeling and it was four years of pent up anxiety about what was transparent right in front of our ice pretty. This Week Youll also hear from Democrat Jamie Raskin of maryland republican. In january 6, views from the house, Sunday Night had ten eastern on cspan, cspan. Org or is on the cspan radio app