Good morning to you both. Last week critical Race Theory getting a lot of attention in part because the heads of major Teachers Union defending educators who teach it in the classroom. Begin the discussion with first explaining exactly what critical Race Theory is but also how prevalent it is in american classrooms today. Good morning. So happy to be back. Just thinking about what critical Race Theory is, i have a simpler definition, if you will. It is a framework to analyze and challenge racism and structures, processes, and discourses, and simply put, it helps us to notice, helps us to see the ways that systemic racism operate and the ways that it is embedded in structures and processes that occur in the United States. And so thinking about how prevalent it is in schools, it is an academic and legal framework, so it is one that people often dont and Wont Encounter unless theyre in graduate studies which is how i was introduced to it and it changed my life for the better. Thinking about the ways it may be implemented in k12 schools. It is not prevalent. There may be teachers, instructors, curriculum designers who know what the framework is, who think about the world in a way where we see that racism matters, and it is something that should be paid attention to, but on the whole, children and teens, adolescents, they are not necessarily being taught critical Race Theory. They may be being taught about race. They may be being taught about equity and inclusion, but critical Race Theory as a framework on average is not its not being included and instructed in an explicit way. Would you agree with that, and also to this question, when does teaching about Race Cross over into teaching about critical Race Theory . Good morning, and thank you for having us back on again. Good morning, dr. Wilson. I generally agree with that. You identified me as a member of the american enterprise institute, but i also run and have run networks of public charter schools in the heart of the South Bronx for the last ten years, and so im someone who deeply committed to ensure all of our kids have a complete understanding of american history, worst and all, the history of slavery, racism, jim crow, as well as the incredible story of Resilience And Progress in the face of those atrocities. And i think sometimes we get caught up in being distracted, which is what, you know, from what the Core Issue is. You know, similar to dr. Wilson, i also wanted to come into this conversation with just what is a clear definition of critical Race Theory . Often in these discussions people are talking past each other. I like to go back to two of the intellectual architects of critical Race Theory, and they wrote in their coauthored book critical Race Theory, an introduction. Heres what they say, quote, unlike traditional civil rights, which embraces Incrementalism And Step by step progress, critical Race Theory questions the very foundations of the liberal order, including equality theory, legal reasoning, enlightenment, rationalism, and neutral principals of constitutional law, end quote. Those are some pretty heavy concepts. I agree with dr. Wilson that unto itself is not being taught in k to 12. That should be more in dialogue in higher education, where youre teaching about critical Race Theory alongside the principles that it claims to repudiate, such as equality, theory, and mutual principles of constitutional law. I think part of the controversy is how its presumed that critical Race Theory is being executed, in the classroom, either unfortunately or fortunately its being associated with critical Race Theory, but in terms of teaching racism, slavery, in schools, it must be done. I think the key of that we want the total story, not a Cherry Picked narrative that either paints the country incredibly patriotically where its purely, you know, just wonderful and, you know, unblemished history, nor is it okay to have a Cherry Picked narrative which is solely atrocities in the terrible country where literally antiblack racism is embedded in the dna of the country. That kind of teaching of the american history can actually have a very disempowering impact on the very young people were seeking to inspire. A lot on the table already. Let me invite the viewers to join our discussion this morning. We set this 8 00 a. M. Eastern hour to have this conversation, to dig into this issue. If you want to join the conversation this morning, phone lines split as usual democrats 2027488000. Republicans, 2077488001. Independents 2027488002. Republicans 2027488001. Do you think this critical Race Theory should be more prevalent in k through 12, where youre seeing this framework that were talking about, this lens were talking about, when do you think it should start . I started having the conversation with my niece. Shes 12, about to turn 13 and going into the 8th grade. I think that between 8th and 10th grade is a good place for student to begin thinking about theories and frameworks. Often times we think that these not even critical Race Theory, but concepts taught in higher education, we think that students should wait till they get into higher education to begin to understand what theories are, how they help us to understand the world, and i think Thats Something that students are ready to handle earlier and not just critical Race Theory, many different types of theorys that help us understand and analyze situations if we are introducing theories and concepts to students as tools of understanding, of tools as tools of analysis, then they will be better prepared, one, to enter into higher education study, and they will also have the wherewithal and the capacity to begin to think beyond their experience and to think outside of themselves, and also in many ways to begin to develop their own theoretical understanding. These are not things that students have to wait for. They are making sense of the world. They are doing that thinking, and if were there to support them, then well help them all to be better along and hopefully our satisfy will be better along. Im thinking about curriculum, the language of Cherry Picking. Thinking about Cherry Picking, the curriculum as it exists is Cherry Picked. It is euro centric in nature, unless a person is going to a particular school that has gone out of its way to create and implement a curriculum that is more holistic. It is Cherry Picked. It is Cherry Picked in a way that mitigates the harm that has been done in the Founding And Establishment of this country and the way that it continues to operate. And so even thinking about the pushback against crt, it is a symptomatic way of quelling the idea of systemic racism, and so theres this meme thats going around talking about the banning of teaching systemic racism is actually a perfect example of systemic racism. There is no way that we can discuss the whole history of this country, without some parts of it being uncomfortable and without some elements of that bringing some type of historical trauma, it brings that historical trauma back up, and what it appears to me thats happening right now or that people are trying to push that away and continue to sweep things under the rug as they have always been able to do, and so i cant agree with this idea of Cherry Picking one side to just talk about racism. It is Cherry Picked already. Thats what were working with, and so in thinking about if im developing curriculum from a critical racebased perspective, im going to have to bring out those other things no matter how unconfident no matter how uncomfortable they are. Let me give you a chance to respond to that. Cherry picking on either extreme doesnt work for kids. I mean, i agree with you that we shouldnt Cherry Pick so that youre not talking about moments of atrocity in our country that need to be learned, but that also kind of exists on the other side. For example, the New York times 1619 project, you know, made a decision to almost not just Cherry Pick on one side but to falsely embellish history and claim that the true founding of the country was the year 1619 and not 1776, or that the american revolution was fought for the purposes of defending slavery when almost every credible historian said that that was blatantly false, so what we just have to be careful of is that were not Cherry Picking on either side based on some political ideology that were trying to achieve and be honest with our students. We dont need to embellish the american story or Cherry Pick. Just tell the truth in complete accuracy. The United States has a horrific history of slavery oppression, jim crow but also has an incredible story of Resilience And Progress. Let me interject this into the debate, since Cherry Picking is the word were using here. Last week the head of major Teachers Unions talking about this issue, talking about defending teachers who teach critical Race Theory. Do you think parents should be able to Cherry Pick as it were . If a parent is uncomfortable, if a School System has decided that they are going to touch on some topics of critical Race Theory, should a parent be able to say i dont want my kid being taught that . Do you think that should be something that parents should be allowed to do . Let me say from a more global perspective, as someone who has run charter schools and a big advocate for School Choice, if Teachers Unions really wanted to increase opportunity for particularly low income kids and kids of color is reverse their policy of standing against School Choice for the very reasons that youre saying. You know, in a district, only 2 of kids that attend traditional district Schools Graduate from high school ready for college, and yet they dont have a choice. Lets say you are in that situation. You know, as i had an idea to launch a school, i couldnt do that because theres a cap on number of charter schools to be created. Lets say you are a parent in that situation, where not only do you want your child to experience that education because it is teaching things you dont want but maybe the academic outcomes have been horrible for so long, but the Teachers Unions are standing in the way of that choice. I find some of these claims a bit honestly hypocritical. Let me just say, pointblank, though, if theres a teacher that is being barred from teaching about Racism And Americas resilience in the face of racism, then that is unamerican, and we should all stand against that. Maybe in some perverse way i agree with the general principle of what the unions are saying. We Cant Ban teachers from teaching about american history. It just has to be a complete and accurate story. Chanel wilson . Thinking about School Choice and charter schools in general, they are a relatively new experiment in the Education System, and this research shows that often times School Choice harms students of color, students from marginalized backgrounds and also from a socioeconomic status backgrounds, looking at charter schools and School Choice, from a critical race theoretical perspective, we would understand that there are still inequities that exist, even though nobly the system of charter schools in some ways tries to benefit students, but on average, it is primarily benefits white parents and white families, and so then thinking beyond that to how parents should have some sayso in what is being taught to their children, i absolutely think that parents should be involved, but the institution of schools in general needs to do a better job of creating the pathways of communication between parents and families. And so i dont think that parents should be able to say im going to take my child out of this particular class, because this teacher is teaching about racism. I think that it should be a community conversation, where schools are having that with parents and with other people who are guardians of children to recognize the why this is important why this is important work and welcoming them into that space in order to learn as well thinking historically about Education System and it being Cherry Picked. Many parents havent had the opportunity, if theyve gone through traditional schools and primarily schools that are residentially segregated, havent had the opportunity to talk about race in meaningful ways. They often times havent had the opportunity to engage in these ideas and academic discussions. Of course theres going to be some fear and some discomfort, and in general there will be people who dont disagree. Thats okay. If we open the communication up and something were all learning and participating in, not just children, but parents, families, guardians, then Thats Something as a society we could be moving further ahead. I dont think that just stopping the conversation is at all helpful. The racism is still existing. If were able to be participating in understanding it, then hopefully we can encourage people to be antiracist and at that point we would be making progress as a society. Let me welcome some callers into this space. These guests joined us back in May And Many Callers wanted us to bring you both back this morning and take some more calls on the same topic. Zack in leland, mississippi is up first. Zack, go ahead. Caller well, since the inception of this country, we as african americans have given our all. The first person who died for this country was [inaudible]. So weve constantly been trying to be accepted into society. Weve given our blood, our soul, our spirit, our language, and everything, but yet we have not been considered a part. We cant take off our black skin like a Police Officer or fireman or whatever can take off and become something else. Were always having to deal with a stigma of being black. If we havent resolved the whole issue of slavery in terms of making some kind of equitable situation, then some black kid says to himself whats wrong with me . Why am i so poor . Why is everybody that looks like me are in this situation . Im sure white kids are like why are little tommy and little sally, why are they living like that . They see the results of systemic racism, and they ask questions but they are born into it like all of us, but there are people who comfortable know they the pie doesnt get any bigger, and they feel that if one person gets something, thats a little less for me. Thats zack in mississippi. Ian roe, i will let you respond to some of the comments. It is a profound question and honestly why i run schools. I dont have a stigma being a black person, nor when i run schools do i want any of my kids to believe theres a stigmaing to black. The caller i dont want any of my kids to believe theres a stigma being black. Every black person in the country is not marginalized or oppressed. There are a lot of white people who are in far inferior conditions to many black people, so we have to focus on ensuring that every single kid of all races, but especially kids, black kids, you know, communities that have had a history of oppression know what the opportunities are in front of them, know that there are millions of black kids. For example i think there are 3 million black kids in college today. We have black people who are leaders in every possible industry, policy, and so i just want the caller to recognize the incredible progress that has to be made. We need to remove this idea that somehow theres a stigma to be a black person . We need to eradicate that kind of thinking, especially for young people. Chanelle wilson, did you want to respond . I didnt hear him say that there werent successful black people. I interpreted his words that students should be taught about systemic racism because it can help them to better understand why the United States operates in the way it does. You dont have to agree that theres a stigma against being black or having darker skin, but we do need to recognize that systemic racism does discriminate against people who are black. You cant say you agree theres systemic racism and then say there isnt a sigma, there is. Thats called systemic racism. People do need to combat that. Absolutely, there are exceptions. There are exceptions to every rule because thats the way that capitalism can work, but thinking about the founding of this country, the genocide of indigenous people and exploitation of africans who were enslaved created the capacity for this economy, for this capitalism to exist. So there are always going even in those times, there were free people who were african. It existed. But it doesnt mean that everyone has the same opportunity. That is untrue. And recognizing that there are poor white people and white people who are marginalized, also true. It occurred during times of slavery as well because your average white person did not own people, could not afford it, and though, thus race as a concept was created and constructed to divide people because poor white people and poor enslaved africans were beginning to unite. So race was introduced into the conversation around about that point explicitly in order to divide people so they wouldnt unite. If poor people in this country were to come together and lower middle class people were to come together with more unity, then that would be a problem for people in the top 1 percent. They dont want that. It cannot happen because unity is how we actually move forward. So in saying that critical Race Theory or talking about racism divides and creates a distraction from people to actually unify for economic justice, which is one of the bigger fights that were fighting. Let me bring in lawson in alexandria, louisiana. You are up next. Caller thank you, Cspan And Washington journal. Im an african american, and i dont know why we dont teach free enterprise and civics anymore. Im 60 years old. I went through segregated schools at first, and then i went to integrated schools. I dont know why these Billionaire Basketball players that are black wont help the black community and stuff, and we worry about racism. There is racism. I dont know if its systematic, but there are racist people. And what i want african americans to do, billionaires and millionaires and stuff, need to invest in the black community and stuff, and they can do a whole lot. Lawson in louisiana. Ian roe, do you want to start . Amen, you know, the black community in particular has an incredible history of entrepreneurship, free enterprise, especially in the states of systemic racism. I mean, the story of the tulsa massacres often focused on the massacre, but what happened before that led all of these black leaders to build businesses and importantly what happened afterwards, in terms of the rebuilding, and so this whole idea again theres so many black entrepreneurs. The caller will be happy to know there are new organizations like harlem capital, which was founded by two black Harvard Business School alumni who are now investing. Theyre changing the face of entrepreneurship. I think they are looking for about a thousand entrepreneurs, primarily black and female, who are wanting to start businesses. Organizations like netflix have moved 100 million dollars of capital to blackowned financial institutions to spur more investment, more entrepreneurship, within the black community. This is what young people need to know. These are the instruments for how we move from persecution to prosperity. It is not that we dont talk about racism and the challenges, but again, if we Cherry Pick and solely focus on that, without talking about the liberating vehicles, the liberating tools, that black and every kid has within their quiver, then were miring young people in a sense of defeatism and not their ability to achieve flourishing within their own lives. You mentioned the tulsa race massacre, the 100th anniversary of that back in may. It was two hours on the Washington Journal that we talked about it if you want to go back and watch our programming on that from tulsa, but Chanelle Wilson you seemed like you wanted to jump in . I always want to jump in. [laughter] im thinking about free enterprise, capitalism, and also thinking about the exceptions to the rule, so people of color, not just black people, who go on to be young millionaires or more. The expectation is always that they will then turn around and give up their money, which is fine. I agree with it. When i become a millionaire, i too will turn around and do more. We cant just look at individual people to fix systemic problems. Individual people can absolutely make differences and serve as role models, but they cannot fix the social system that has been created in order for those people actually to become millionaires and billionaires. Something else that im just thinking about, like no one looks at Jeff Bezos and say why hasnt he helping white people . Maybe some people think that, but thats not a conversation i have heard. For me it appears that people assume that people who come from marginalized or minoritized backgrounds, that they should give up what they have out of benevolence that is not expected from people who have social dominance. Also thinking about moving from persecution to prosperity. It is not that simple. Those words sound really great. In order to move from persecution to prosperity, we have to come to terms how and why people were persecuted and the ways it still exists, how its been transformed to look different, but actually operates the same, so if were talking about the way that slavery existed. Thats been transformed into mass incarceration, and so we cant just pretend that systems have been broken down on or abolishes. They have not. They have transformed. Moving from persecution to prosperity, we have to do checkpoints. We have to recognize where we are, how things are actually happening, and then more people have to work together to actually put systems in place that can abolish those others and recreate or imagine new ways, new ways that we can operate and practice equity. All right. I would love to ask you, though, so again, i run speaking about systems that are oppressive, again, i run schools in the bronx, right now only 2 of kids that start 9th grade four years later graduate from high school ready for college. And right now parents who live in that community have no ability to choose any other school other than the district schools that unfortunately hasnt been treating their kids well. Thats the system we have to break. And so maybe we concur on this, because to me, thats one of the very first systems thats not even allowing a quality of opportunity for kids. I agree with you. I think that schools and the ways that they function, traditional public schools and charter schools and private schools, i think they need to be abolished and recreated. There is no way that we can pretend that schools that were created for rich white men can now serve everyone. Now everyone is allowed to be in those spaces, but those spaces were not created for them. What is the model that you would create . If you were in charge of doing that, what would be the system . Okay. If i were in charge of doing it, you put me on the spot, and i have some thoughts, and i will try to keep them brief. The way that i think about school, they perpetuate hierarchy, they mirror social inequities that are outside of school buildings and bring those in. I dont agree with hierarchy of school. Im at a place right now where i dont even actually agree with grading systems that happen. They put people on these levels, and then they hold them there. Theres tracking. Theres all types of ways that students opportunities are hindered as a result of processes that exist. And so im a fundamental believer in constructivism and inquiry, and i think that people have the opportunity to guide their own instruction with the support of an educator or other people. I think that the competition that exists in School Systems doesnt work. It works it doesnt even work for the people who are on top. I was one of the people who always came out at the top of my class, who always had high grades, and i realized after i got through K12 Schooling that i hadnt learned very much. I learned how to follow rules. I learned how to participate in systems. I learned how to do what was expected of me. But when i was homeschooled which was at a different time thats when i learned how to learn. I learned how to ask questions and how to challenge. Those are the ways i think schools can function, ones that create community, ones that are not competition, ones that dont foster hierarchy, spaces where people have the opportunity to explore at their own pace, but that were not necessarily i agree with college. I teach at a College Level and hopefully will be here for a while. We think everyone needs to be prepared for higher education. You are saying 2 of students come out and are prepared for higher education. When black students graduate anyway, theyre often times going to be under or unemployed even with those degrees, so the degrees, they dont mean very much for the way that we say it will open you up to be able to participate in this wider pool of opportunity. For some, that is true. For many, that is untrue. Weve moved into a wider discussion this morning, but it is a good thing we set aside an hour to do that this morning. Our topic critical Race Theory. More than halfway through our discussion. Phone lines 2027488000 if you support teaching it and it being included in the crick you mean will. Curriculum. 2027488001 if you oppose. Teresa supports out of savannah, georgia. Good morning, you are next. Good morning. Im a 58yearold native indigenous United States american citizen. Born in 1963. I have a question, should you tell parents the curriculum and how do you foster studentses who get in trouble over bad grades, over critical Race Theory . Im basing this off my own history of bad grades for english, spelling, math. It doesnt make school fun. My grades were average. I was getting in trouble just for basic school, not even critical Race Theory, but just basic school, english, and compared to my siblings, so how do you deal with that outside of criticalalalalal Race Theory in through 12 or College Level School System for kids . Well, i will let you take that up, specifically on that question of disclosure of curriculum as well. Well, i definitely think schools should have full transparency over what curricula is being taught at their schools. Again, this gets back to the heart of School Choice f. A parent sees and again, it is not just critical Race Theory, its if the school is teaching something else that the parent feels is inappropriate for their child, they should have the power to choose. The reality is that middle and upper income people have the ability to choose, by paying for private school or moving to the suburbs so they can access a great tuition free public schools. But a lot of low income kids dont have that opportunity. Fundamentally there should be full transparency in terms of curricula. As far as grading, i do believe that grades are an important objective measure for a teacher to understand where are his or her kids, and what are the interventions that need to be utilized to help those kids move forward . I deal with im very pragmatic, and running schools on a daytoday basis, it is hard for me to envision a scenario in which we have a classroom without grades. I mean theres a big story in San Diego, that San Diego decided to become an antiracist School District because they found that 80 of black kids had passing grades, and yet 93 of white kids had passing grades, and so instead of asking the question what are the passing kids doing to enhance their prospects to get passing grades . San diego said no, were going to look at the failure rate, the 20 of black kids that got a d or an F Grade and they said because of that 13 percentage point difference, 20 of black kids that had a failing grade and a 7 of white kids that had a failing grade, because of that 13 difference, it must be systemic racism. And somehow the San Diego unified School District decided to eliminate homework, eliminate the requirement that you have to hand in your homework in on time. Somehow on the assumption that black kids werent able to get homework in on time. It is that kind of thinking that for an educator just takes me into a place thats like how does that make any sense . Lets study success. What is it that 80 of black kids were doing in San Diego that helped them to succeed . What was it that 93 of white kids by the way, 94 of asian kids. When you looked at the data, the amount of hours spent studying was one of the key factors to driving student success. Okay, so how do we create the conditions so more kids can study . So for the caller, if you werent doing well, i hope you had some good teachers who identified based on your grades you werent succeeding as much as you could, but hopefully that led to more interventions that helped you be successful. Caller from mississippi. Good morning. Caller good morning. Ms. Wilson, thank you for all the work you are doing. If you wanted to go on Race Theory, we would get away from the backwards thinking. I think thats what i was taught through school, backwards thinking. Always give credit to the white man. Buy toys for your kids, you give credit to a white man in the suit. You say lincoln gave you freedom. God gave you freedom. Christopher columbus, it is backwards thinking. If you are going to teach these kids, theres a correct way of teaching them. Ms. Wilson, i propose that black people in america need a social program. Youre right, the ones that become millionaires dont reach back and help the ones from where they come out of their poverty. Social program, just like social security, social security is a great program because it helps people out when they are in need. If we counted all the black people in america, and we gave everybody a social security number, everybody went and put a dollar in a day, we could turn black people into millionaires. We can bring ourselves out of this poverty. We have enough money as black people to do it. Ms. Wilson . I think that absolutely that black peoples buying power is that. Are there ways that it could be repurposed . Yes. Are there ways that depending on their situations and depending on different systems, processes, and practices that are there ways that that money is siphoned out . Yes. Im thinking about people who just have like your average job, who are paying taxes, they are going to pay more taxes than somebody who starts a business and invest in their business, and claim particular losses and or decrease their income because of the expenses it costs to run the business. There are different ways that money is theres different ways that Peoples Money can be used to keep them in a particular place, or there are different ways that people can build wealth. Im thinking about redlining. Black people were not allowed to buy homes. They werent allowed to get mortgages. A lot of white wealth comes from homeownership or those things being passed down. Black people werent allowed to get Life Insurance. A lot of white wealth comes from Life Insurance policies that people are able to benefit from when a relative passes away. Yes, black people absolutely could but because there were so many years of discrimination and because those things even now, still looking at wells fargo or others who very recently were discriminating against not just black people but people of color in general. Absolutely, the capacity exists for everyone to succeed, but we cannot pretend that there arent those structures in place that do impede and or that limit Peoples Access up until now, so maybe 100 years from now, black people and people of color will be in better place because of policies and practices that are being reversed. On the whole, many of those things still exist. They just exist in different forms. That gets in the way of the progress that people can make. Is it possible . Yes. Are people knowledgeable . Absolutely. Are there systems that impede that . That exists as well. And so from a critical race perspective, we have to recognize that those other things exist and that those policies and practices need to change in order for people to operate in their godgiven freedom, in their human agency and autonomy. They know what to do. But what are the different things that these people have to jump over that other people know the doorway that exists to just walk through . Let me get you to respond this response from twitter. It was wilson who acknowledged that critical Race Theory isnt being taught much as a discipline in the k through 12 level. This writer writes in why are we arguing about a subject thats not taught in schools . The list of things not taught in schools is endless. She asks who loses and who wins by dividing us over critical Race Theory . Great question. I made this point, i think the discussion on critical Race Theory is a massive distraction to a decades long Literacy Crisis that has existed in our country for kids of all races. Its still true today that just over a third of all american kids read at proficiency at 4th grade, 8th grade, and 12th grade. This is a national crisis, and often times we focus on just minority kids. Theres never been a situation since 1992 where even a majority of white kids are reading at grade level proficiency. This has enormous implications for us as a global competitor, india, china, indonesia, singapore, all these other countries that are or that are far outpacing the United States in english and math. Were spending time, wasting time on critical Race Theory when our Kids Cant Read and thats a essential problem. Who loses . The vast majority of kids. One thing i will say part of the reason i think that critical Race Theory gets such attention within k to 12 that even though the theory unto itself is not being taught, there are a number of practices that rightly or wrongly have become associated with critical Race Theory, and those practices are ones that are often sometimes divisive in the sense they literally divide both kids and faculty by race, and these are now provisions that might be violating Title Xi of the civil rights act. Whats an example of that . In evanston, illinois, a teacher brought a lawsuit that because this district became an antiracist district, which often is synonymous, again rightly or wrongly with critical Race Theory started separating their teachers that white teachers go here, and black teachers go here, in the white classroom, you had to declare your oppressive tendencies. Even with students, they did these things called privilege where all the students were lined up horizontally, but then they said if youre white take three steps forward. If youre black, take five steps backward to somehow evidence your white privilege or your black oppression. Those are the kinds of behaviors that i think are being associated with critical Race Theory, and people rightfully so are very concerned that those kinds of actions are violations of the very provision that prohibits racial discrimination, as well as compelled speech, like saying im an oppressor. That violates the 1st amendment. On some of those practices that ian was just talking about . So i do training around antiracism. I participate in professional development and lead professional development around Aept Antiracism where we talk about power, Privilege And Oppression. Some of the practices that you name are i know of the practices, but i dont know exactly what existed in that space. I have never done or seen a privilege walk, where someone says because you are white, do this. Because you are black, do that. I cant necessarily speak to it. I speak to that particularly. I do know that privilege walks in the way that i have seen them often times try to illustrate the way that society already exists. And so that is but thats usually one piece. Often times its followed up with a larger conversation that talks about practices, policies, that have created the reality that exists. I hope that that happened in that instance. I dont know. Then talking about the separation of races, in some of the professional development workshops that i have facilitated, i have had people of color who have specifically asked for their own space because there are harms that they experienced when theyre in a multiracial space, where there are white people who maybe dont understand, who do not agree and who feel empowered enough to make those statements that are harmful to the black people and people of color and indigenous people. Ive had people ask. I have allowed people to separate if they want. I have experienced white people who feel like they are being discriminated against because they are not allowed to go over into a space that is for people of color. Maybe Thats Something that happened in this instance. I dont know that person. I do recognize that there does not have to be an issue with separation of spaces if were learning and were coming from different places, different backgrounds, different experiences. That is okay, as long as there is still some reconvening where people are working together. I dont think theres a problem to talk about power Privilege And Oppression because those things are operating all of the time, and if we pretend as if they arent and dont allow students to uncover those things and discuss them in productive ways, then were disharm to both the students who are seen as privileged and those students who are seen as oppressed. I will never denigrate what you just explained. It happens and it is okay, depending on who is facilitating, the depending on the learning that comes from that. I hope people are better on the other side. In my experience, people are often times better on the other side of the trainings that i have done. Little bit of time. We have a lot of callers. Let me take a few of them to get their thoughts in and continue the discussion. Michael from virginia. Go ahead. Caller thank you, cspan, for taking my call and what a great conversation. I especially want to thank mr. Rowe for me as a supporter of any kind of antiracism or racial discussions, i really appreciate mr. Rowes point of view. Hes taught me a lot. I have a pretty simple question thats probably a lightweight question, but it is important to me. In my discussions with folks about racism, or critical Race Theory in particular, a lot of times i get side tracked into a discussion, what critical Race Theory is, and i noticed you started with simple definitions of critical Race Theory. Well ive come up with a simple definition that seems to pretty much end those kinds of arguments or conversations. I wanted to get your impressions or suggestions about this. I say that statistics is hard fact. Its science and gathered information, and statistics tells us things. And one of the statistics that we know is that there is discrimination in our civilization based on race well, that is at least associated with race. Theres no doubt about that. Statistics teach us that. There are theories about why that is and how best to address it and what we can do about it. Critical Race Theory is really just the critical discussion for open minded the open minded and critical discussion about those theories. I will leave my question at that. Thank you. Michael in virginia. Lets get in chuck out of jefferson, georgia. Good morning. Caller good morning. How are you all doing today . Very well. Caller good morning. Im a retired schoolteacher, and what i found out that and ive been you know, research has proven this, that if you come from a two parent family, if you graduate from high school, if you dont have children until youre married, then youre going to be successful in america. Black, white, green, red, it doesnt matter. I dont understand all this stuff. You know, i taught school. I had black and white kids in the classroom, but i had white kids that were racist. I had black kids that were racist. I had black kids told me they werent going to listen to me because i was white. Now is that racism . Chuck in georgia, one more Call William houston in texas. Thanks for waiting. Go ahead. Caller good morning, everybody. Hello cspan. Im 65yearold Gentleman who grew up in segregated schools. One of the things thats lost in this whole discussion is just trying to find out why theres so much disparity between black and white. I want to refer to employment. In fortune 500 companies i have worked for in the past 20 years, i have yet to see an all black department. I challenge anybody to tell me if there is, even in hiring positions. So its not a question of is there or will there or has there ever been discrimination . Most people dont realize they have a prejudice until they have an opportunity to exercise it. Until you live in that environment, until you walk in and to this day, 2021, i would love for anybody to take this challenge, tell me one fortune 500 company that had all african american department from the janitor to the c suite. William in texas. Ian, let you start with the responses. Well, what you articulate is exactly why i run schools. I mean, how do we expect there to be a department in a fortune 500 company if in a district in the bronx, which is almost predominantly black and hispanic, only 2 are graduating from high school ready for college . Why would we expect us to be flourishing when we dont have equal opportunity in the very earliest stages of life . So i agree. Thats part of the reason we dont see the visual representation of black people and other low income people who dont have the mechanism early. The prior caller talked about the importance of family structure. The data what he described is practice of education, high school degree, full time work of any kind, just so you learn the Dignity And Discipline of work, and then if you have children, marriage first. That series of decisions and this is not about moralizing, this is just data, but 98 of people who have followed that series of decisions in that order avoid poverty. Its not a guarantee. It is not 100 , but it does say there are tools within your control that if you have an opportunity to get a great education, to get that first job, that you have a dramatically increased likelihood of avoiding poverty. These are important concepts. Often we talk about systemic racism, institutional racism, structural racism. Well, i want to create another one, how about surmount bl racism, where we give young people the tools to know what they can do in a society that still does have racism, but they are not doomed to a defeated future. They have within their tools the ability to be successful. Surmountable racism . Yes, yes, anything can be surmountable. Im thinking about the thought that okay. The thought that families are to blame, the thought that children are to blame, the thought that sometimes educators are blame, for why people arent successful. Absolutely people can overcome racism and people have, but thinking about just the presence of people of color in this country is proof that people can continue to strive through and surmount it in different ways. So it is not it is not that people cannot overcome racism. It is that racism doesnt need to exist. We know that race is a social construct, but we do know that racism has very real implications for peoples lives. It doesnt have to be that way. And so we dont have to think about okay, well, we should just train people or educate people to get over racism. How about we all try to be antiracist . Like how about that . How about we eradicate those systems that are in Peoples Way so they dont have to think about surmounting it, lets abolish it, get rid of it, it is absolutely possible. The conversation about family structure, not having children before marriage, all those things. There are a lot of things that happen that make it so these things occur. Many people are against like Sex Education in schools, but people are absolutely still having sex which is why we have so many children. People are against like reproductive rights. Okay, but why cant a person choose to do what they would like to do with their body . I personally dont agree with School Choice because some people can choice out, but as you say, theres always going to be people who are left over. So what about them . Why cant we think about the Education System and the way it operates as something that students cannot cannot or should not have to survive . Children are surviving the Education System because it exists in almost the same way that it did 200 years ago. Thats not necessarily. So necessary. How about we change that instead of thinking that we need to change the people so they can figure out how to navigate the system . Many people have figured out how to navigate the system, but the system in the way operates does not work. We can do something about that. We can do something about Teacher Education so were training people to create spaces where students want to be, where thap dont want to drop out where they dont want to drop out. Were creating programming that responds to students needs earlier you said amount of hours that people can study. Some people have to help take care of their families. Some people have to get jobs. Some people have to do child care, and some people have other things that are pressing on their time. Why dont we create social programs that assist people in those ways rather than thinking the problem is them. The problem is not them. They are people caught up in systems that can be changed, and we can all do something about that. Let me try in a couple more callers than waiting for a while before we run out of time. Anna in De Soto, texas. Good morning, thanks for waiting. Caller good morning. I am 72 years old. I went through segregation. We had in this little Country School a gentleman who was a selftaught man. The sharecropper that he worked for and his family noticed that he was so smart. They gave him books. He read books. He then went on to Bishop College where he was taught. Then from there to tuskegee to booker t. Washington and George Washington Carver who mentored him. Black Wall Street in texas, we knew about it. People like all of a sudden, Black Wall street, it was because of this man who was born into slavery. He taught my grand father. He taught my mom. He taught it was a lot of older teacher. Juneteenth people think oh juneteenth no, we knew about juneteenth. We knew that in 1865 that was taught to us. It was a family affair. It was about the crops. And then you go on and theres a man that is never talked about. His book succeeding against the odds john h. Johnson, he always put in his magazine ebony, a day in history. Black Wall Street, the kansas city call, those are things we need to teach our children to read. We dont go to school bored. I have grandchildren. We dont attend pph. You can make a change. The superintendent of the school here in De Soto asked me how was it about segregation . I said it was about teaching, people teaching, books. Well take that point and get in ken here in washington, d. C. Ken, go ahead. Caller good morning. Thanks for taking my call. I will try to make it as quick as i possibly can. I know the gentleman, i apologize you cant remember your name, i know you mentioned on a number of occasions you run a school. Again, thats a perspective. Thats not a global issue in terms of what happens to black people in this nation because you mentioned that were going to leave this program. The u. S. Senate is back to gavel in, part of our long time commitment to bring you coverage of congress. The senates working on a biden Administration Nominee to be undersecretary of state, with a vote scheduled for