But the rest of us are much lower default or even understand where the scientists are enabling us to travel. Many nations and even some corporations are exploring type of the earths atmosphere, testing the infinite number of ways that matching space can help. 7. 6 billion of us who live down here on earth. The Space Age is about seven years old and the foundational outer Space Treaty is just over 50 years old. That should tell us something. Unfortunately precious little has happened since the beginning to work nice human efforts in the in human space domain. Space is in danger of becoming the wild, wild west for every satellite, after, cosmonaut has to defend himself. From their testimony experts are giving us or giving up on the concept of a lawabiding rulesbased Space And Selling for something less like Suggestion Space or probably even perhaps thats the best we can do but i think we should try harder and better. Cant we at least agree on agreements on space management, and the size of safety vessels around satellites and capsules, to ban debris or to have compatible docking there must be a Consensus Summer on earth for the sensible. I look for it to the discussion with our witnesses and i turn to the days on a very strategic forces ranking Member Mr. Lamborn for any opening remarks that he may have. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Can you hear me okay . Yes. Okay. I want to thank you, Chairman Castro and . Guest . Addition of what you think our witnesses for joining us today to discuss this important issue as as a subcommittee has highlighted again and again space is a vital component of our National Security now more than ever. Not only that but are economy is totally depend on access to space. Space like the Air And Sea domain is a a common good thae all benefit from regardless of country of origin but unlike those of the Domain Space is more likely to suffer tragedy in the Commons Outcome as result of bad actors. In leases recent suscepto longterm damage from debris created by collisions, poorly conducted at the satellite weapons, and testing and simply poor planning. The foundation international laws and norms that we currently operate under were developed under the cloud of the cold war with only the two great powers could ask her space. The outer Space Treaty doesnt account for the congested operations of space we see today. This treaty was written with very broad language thats open to white interpretation by its signatories to the agreement. I do not believe China And Russia offering good faith when it comes to their proposals as evidenced by the treaty on prevention at the placement of weapons in outer space sometimes referred to as minogue first placement treaty. This treaty proposed ban weapons in outer space but lacked any verification and also with simon on Space Debris caused by Testing And Rendezvous and proximity operations. Most notably however Russia And China are many ways already weaponizing space proposing a tree upon which ratification they would already be in violation of. I was glad to see the uk submitted a resolution to put reduce space threats through norms, rules and principles of responsible behaviors to be considered by the general assume it is simply and a the Drive O make space safer and more stable. What i dont want this and other international that would tie our hands while others blatantly ignore its limitations. Like the late intermediaterange nuclear forces treaty. I dont want to see the treaty the u. S. Receives almost no benefits hurt while our adversaries do like the new now dead open skies treaty. I appreciate the continued service that you provide to the nation and i look forward to our discussions today. Thank you, mr. Chairman and i yield back. Thank you, mr. Lamport. Now i turn to Chairman Castro for his opening remarks. Thank you, chairman. Its an honor to you Today Wy colleagues from both committees to discuss one of the longterm challenges we face not just as a nation but as the species, space. Specifically the rules what will govern humanities expiration, congress and other activities in space both by the private sector and nationstates. I give special thanks to Chairman And Congressman jim cooper. Used chairman of the strategic subcommittee on strategic forces which oversees many of our Nations Space programs. We are working together with the house foreign affairs me and my staff on this important and distort hearing. In the long run the peaceful exploration of space can be one of the most significant and unifying projects in our nation and our world has ever undertaken. As president kennedy said of the moon mission, Americas Journey to space will will serve to organize and measure the best of our energy and skill. In short, space pairings can bring out the best of a spirit we need the cutting edge technology, creating new jobs, making significant scientific discoveries and perhaps above all uniting our divided nation for a common purpose once more. I commend the Biden Administration pledging to continue ongoing plans to return americans to the men and making clear part of this mission would be to land the first Woman And Person of color on the lunar surface. Ensuring that this Moon Landing will be seen by americans in the world as an accomplishment on behalf of all americans. Yet despite the goal of peaceful coexistence among the stars, space is not immune to the realities of international relations at a a time of risig authoritarian powers or to the global trend of increased Inequality And Lack of corporate accountability. This thing will serve to assess the current and future state of human activity in space and to inform a new american strategy for preserving the rule of law, peace and international cooperation in the most hostile Environment Humanity inhabits. This is new territory of course for all of us. Theres never been this many state and private actors all operating in space at once, with multiple different priorities and growing risks of clashes, both intentional and not. In many ways the challenges faced it took centuries to shape the law of the sea drawing upon thousands of years of human seafaring. We dont have 100 years to set the rules for space nor do we have traditions to drop on the fall beyond living memory. The realities that space is offered critical to military capabilities of the United States, our allies, partners, and our adversaries. The question is how we and other states will respond and whether we will be able to develop a set of rules to manage disputes and develop a set of rules that will also work for all of us. The United States is engaged in these critical issues for decades at the united nations and in other international organizations. By excel during pace of human activities in space raises the urgency of reengaging with our partners and establishing norms and rules. Earlier this week the United States made a public declaration of what our interests were in space can what threats we face and how we will engage with the international Community Established Norms of behavior. This is a critical task that we rely on space for almost everything we do as a society to include navigation, accurate tom keatinge, global communications and of the weather. Satellites from both government and private actors will increase nearly tenfold in the next decade. Countries including china are developing the capabilities to disable or destroy threw thrh missiles, other satellites, cyber attacks and electronic warfare. If the United States plans to return to the men that also raise importance of minimizing the risk to astronauts in space. Congress must pay careful attention to all these issues and determine where the United States stands on these crucial questions for space governance. This hearing will be one of the significant opportunities to address these issues and her directly from the administration on what were doing to build an international rulesbased order to govern space that can meet the challenges of humanities second spacefaring century. With that i yield back. Thank you so much, Chairman Castro. Now we turn to ranking member malliotakis for her remarks. Thank you, chairman cooper. As a set out to contribute to the building of a framework for rulesbased order, spaces are american interest come there are two primary areas i wish to explore with our Panel Government witnesses from the department of defense and state. First, my distinguished colleagues already made reference the impact of the 19 species outerSpace Treaty but is the common [inaudible] captured in second paragraph of the recognizing the common interest of all humankind in the progress of the Exploration And Use of outer space for useful purposes. That i wish id like. This principle of international law holds that just as we are to treat pressure on Earth Outerspace [inaudible] to the benefit of all shall be a province of all humankind. Further, outerspace should be free from exploitation by any Nation State or private corporation. I throw this out because [inaudible] the law of the Sea Compulsiveness as [inaudible] it was establishing set out comprehensive legal regime for the world oceans despite being without regard to its terms even going so far nearly five years later [inaudible] the threat of russian and chinese space programs. The report the collective insights of the u. S. Intelligence community and focuses on the most direct series threats the United States during the next year. The report identifies China And Russia as antisatellite Weapons Program and the threat these programs posed to u. S. And russian forces of light on satellitebased communication. I sure in the concerns on threat posed by China And Russias Space Technology to the principle of common heritage of all humankind. Both Nations Track records on Earth Surface give more than sufficient reason to expect that their malign it eatable extended over. The second action i wish highlight is the commercial exploration of space. [inaudible] just how far we have come in exploration. While the u. S. Government builds partnerships with private industries, with China And Russia, there is no distinction between that which the state owns and that which is privately owned as these programs are allstate own. We have seen the script before commercial fishing vessels by china as maritime militia. The focus on these areas because in one hand that offers opportunities to and future generations. On the other they represent dangerous resulting from nationstates unwilling to based order and Space Technology that pose a direct threat to our nation security. We must that cast aside the realities. Maintaining that that was obtainable. But today as our global leaders pursue international norms, rules and principles of responsible behavior is not fiction. The u. S. And other nations may add byebye international norms, rules and principles of responsible behavior but our competition actually differs with this order. This is our current Operating Environment and we must pursue a Space Policy that brings together to address these challenges, Space Expiration. I welcome our astute panel of experts. Thank you. Thank you so much. First, let me say that everyone should be muted except for the witnesses that i call on. Let me repeat. Everyone should be muted. Theres way too much Background Noise here. So please mute yourself. Our first witness for his fiveminute statement will be mr. John hill. Now, mr. Hill. Thank you, chairman cooper, ranking member malliotakis, Chairman Castro come to distinguish most of the subcommittees. Its an honor to testify before you today along with my distinguished colleagues. You have my full a written statement in with your permission i ask that it be included in the record. I will briefly summarize it. Without objection, so ordered. The u. S. Government efforts to foster a rulesbased international order in outerspace, our focus on establishing voluntary nonlegally binding measures derived from current technical and operational best practices. As one of the worlds most experienced space operators, department of defense actively supports and partners with the department of state in developing u. S. Proposals within international venues in order to shape the strategic environment toward an Agreedupon Model for safe, responsible and professional behavior. There are many benefits to having common guidelines for Space Operations. Among these are a safer, more sustainable, more stable, and more predictable space Operating Environment for all space operators. Importantly for dod such an Operating Environment can also facilitate indications and warnings of hostile intentions and hostile acts. Dod policies and practices often serve as the basis for international measures. The ud models responsible through our routine Space Operations and dod works carefully to ensure that our Space Operations are consistent with international measures the United States supports, and with relevant domestic and international law, including the law of armed conflict and inherent right of selfdefense. For example, only our duty operations fully consistent with the 2007 Space Debris guidelines of united Nations Committee on peaceful uses of outer space . The dvd practices also served as a source of the more rigorous standards adopted in the November 2019 United States Government orbital Debris Mitigation standard practices. Likewise, for ten years the department of defense provided one of the lead u. S. Delegates to the negotiations on the committee on the peaceful uses of outer space that produced the 2019 guidelines for the longterm sustainability of outer Space Activities. This is a patient insured consistency with dod practices and greatly facilitated implementation of these guidelines. Most recently dod has supported the drafting of the United States national submission in response to the 2020 united nations general Assembly Resolution on producing space threats through norms, rules, and principles of responsible behaviors. From the Dod Perspective united States Leadership in the development of a rulesbased order for Space Activities reaps benefit for u. S. Civil, commercial, scientific and national Security Space operators. As Space Activities worldwide become more prolific and more varied, voluntary nonbinding international norms and standards and guidelines for responsible Behavior And Benefit u. S. National security and foster a conducive environment for growing global space activity. Thank you for your time and attention, and i look forward to your questions. Thank you very much, mr. Hill. I appreciate that. I asked members one more time to please mute your microphones. There still some Background Noise. Now will hear from General Whiting. Chairman cooper, Chairman Castro, ranking member lamborn, ranking member malliotakis and distinguish members of the committee thank you for the opportunity to testify today in my capacity as commander of Space Operation Command of the Use Space Force perspectives towards creating a framework for rulesbased order in space. Im on a today to to join mr. Hill and our partners at the State Department mr. Turner and mr. Moore whose leadership and insights greatly contribute towards ensuring the safety, Security Stability and longterm sustainability of u. S. Space activities. I had the distinct privilege to lead and represent guardians and airmen of space Operations Command providing combat ready isr led cyberSecurity Space and Combat Support forces to the joint force. It is from the perspective of our role to sustain these forces that i testify here before you today. Aligned under Nations News Service our mission is to protect america and our allies in space now and into the future. As u. S. Space command Space Force service compounded we accomplish this mission to her headquarters generate present and sustained task. Along with a headquarters we present to u. S. Space command at Vandenberg Air Force Base in california who plan, integrat, conduct and assess global Space Operations. Our Mission Execution come benefits from decades of experience, operating in space while demonstrating safe, professional and responsible behavior. In fact, given our hair did to help keep the Domain Space Art Event in partnership with what was our Combatant Command at the time, you strategic Command Competitiveness u. S. Space command, as for many years with the support of congress, been providing orbital conjunction assessments to any Space And Operator around the globe while also making available Space Track. Org to foster Openness And Transparency in the tracking of tens of thousands of objects on orbit. As more actors come to space the domain is changing with an increased risk of collisions as well as miscalculations or misunderstandings. It is in, on the department to continue Space Leadership through demonstrating and acknowledging responsible behavior in space such as the widespread sharing a space situational awareness information. Today we support the shift of nonmilitary Space Traffic Management to the department of commerce, thus allowing the department of defense to focus on directed military functions in our protect and defend mission. Nevertheless, the u. S. Space was will collaborate with the department of commerce by providing the authority to Space Catalog and in identifying and analyzing specific behaviors to ensure safe, professional, a sustainable operations on orbit while further enhancing trust with allies and establishing new bonds with emerging spacefaring nations. However, we have long understood that our nation is strongest economically, militarily and diplomatically when a freedom of operation in a secure, stable space domain. It is the position of u. S. Space force that the voluntary nonlegally Binding Transparency and Confidence Building measures, guidelines and norms on responsible behavior to include and understanding what constitutes safe and professional conduct would be immensely helpful toward our mission to protect the u. S. And our allies in from and to space. In concert with the secretary of State Leadership without a current approach to establish norms, the u. S. Space force provide department of defense a capability to both model back behavior and promote internationally accepted standards. I thank you for your support and unfortunate working with congress as we continue to transform our national Security Space foster. Again im privileged to be a with my distinguished colleagues, look forward to your questions. Thank you so much. Now we will hear from mr. Moore. Thank you very much, chairman cooper, ranking member lamborn, Chairman Castro, ranking member malliotakis, distinguished members of the subcommittees. I am very honored to join you and my colleagues from the pentagon Space Command and the State Department to discuss american leadership in outer space. You have my full written testimony which i would ask if you would kindly submit for the record and, of course, i will keep my remarks to less than five minutes, mr. Chairman. Without objection, so ordered. Thank you again, mr. Chairman. Thank you very much for the impressive senior bipartisan interest in this vastly important issue. As we all know and many of you noted, human activity in outer space is changing rapidly. In 1990, only about 20 countries were active in space. Today its more than 70. The United States leads of the world a new Commercial Space ventures. For the first time in nearly a decade, and this is a tremendous and inspiring success, thanks to the private sector americans are traveling to the international Space Station on americanmade Space Launch vehicles. The success of our program increasingly depends on international engagement and therefore depends on diplomacy. The bureau of oceans and international environmental and scientific affairs together with the bureau of Arms Control their Vacation And Compliance conducts diplomatic efforts to ensure that the behavior across all space sectors is consistent with u. S. Policy and practice as well as with the 1967 outer Space Treaty which a member of you have cited, and associated conventions and agreements. The Bidenharris Administration has charge us to explore and use outerspace to the benefit of humanity and to ensure the safety, Stability And Security of outer Space Activities. This includes extending and leveling the global Playing Field for the american space industry. We work directly with partners and three u. N. Bodies and other multilateral fora to advance these principles. He is the u. N. Committee for the peaceful uses of outer space mentioned before as well as the u. N. Office for outer space affairs for over 60 60 yearse have worked to those organizations to build support for the united States Space policies as well as for our vision to expand human presence in space and promote the responsible use of space. As Chairman Castro noted in february the Biden Administration endorsed nasas Artemis Program, and a vicious effort to lend the first woman first woman of color on the moon and establish longterm presence there as well as develop and demonstrate new technologies, capabilities and business approaches needed for future activities and go on to mars. Decades ago the Apollo Mission galvanize the cost of one by the american taxpayer, now through cooperation with international partners and private industry we share both the burden and the rewards. The artemis records created by the department of state and nas in consultation with some of our close spacefaring nations are this Nations Recommitment to the principles of outer Space Treaty and the patient a safe and transparent and five at which facilitates exploration, sciee in commercial activities in space. As my fellow panelists have testified there was a major geopolitical challenges as other countries advance their own Space Expiration objectives. Some countries will work with us to establish standards for safe and responsible behavior. Others will not. Our bureau keeps a very close eye on russian and chinese Space Activities. Together with the interagency. Interagency. We engage directly with them on Space Flight Safety and responsible behavior while chemical Canada Actions inconsistent with those principles. You was cooperation with russia is based on a governmental agreement on cooperation in Expiration And Use of outer space for peaceful purposes which was recently extended through december 31, 2030. This arrangement provides the legal framework for cooperation on the international Space Station and limited Space Science and robotics Space Expiration missions. With regard to china we maintain our engagement through a variety of means in order to understand the space, Science And Exploration programs and encourage mutually beneficial open exchange of scientific data from several space missions. Well continue to use multilateral venues and initiatives such as artemis, as well as bilateral consultations in Commercial Space industry, responsible behavior in outer Space And Space exploration. Thank you again for inviting us to testify. I welcome your questions. Thank you very much, mr. Moore. Now, mr. Turner. Chairman, chairman cooper, ranking members, thank you for the opportunity to testify today on the rulesbased space order. Im grateful for the opportunity to testify alongside don hill, lieutenant general and Jonathan Moore. Like others i have submitted a longer statement for the record. It is incredibly appropriate that were leaving on may 5th, the 60th anniversary of astronaut alan shepard. This flight was the first step that gradually led to astronauts orbiting the earth, landing on the moon and today, continuing in continuous orbit around our planet. This flight took place in a time when there were only two countries placing satellites and humans in orbit and also took place in a time when regional outer space was just beginning to be developed. The implementation of Arms Control was one of the Arms Control Clair Verification and compliance which i am representing today. In that capacity, along with our state and our Dod Colleagues, we are leading efforts for the development and implementation for voluntary to enhance the Safety And Security of outer space. In general, with longstanding bipartisan policy and as reflected recently in the 2020 national Space Policy, the United States will consider proposals and contexts if theyre enhancing the security of the United States and its allies. Unfortunately, for many years the national community has been focused on a number of flawed, legally binding Arms Controls proposals and recently the 2014 chinese Draft Treaty on the prevention of the placement of weapons in outer Space Or Use against outer pace objects known as and the State Department has a record of enumerating many flaws. In light of these shortcomings, the fan Space Policy directs the United States and i quote, to lead the enhancement of safety, availability, longterm sustainability in space by promoting a framework for responsible behavior in outer face, including the pursuit and effective implementation of best practices, standards and norms of behavior, end quote. President bidens 2021 interim strategic National Security guidance also affirm that the United States lead in promoting and forging new agreements in the United States. The United States believes that the development that the norms of behavior can reduce risk to interNational Security and stability and increasing predictability and reducing risks of misperception and preventing conflict. Thats why in 2020, the United States worked with our close allies to advance a new united nations general Assembly Resolution titled reducing space threats for norms for principles of responsible behavior. We believe it can serve as a first step for the Space System to develop ideas, i dont believe behaviors designed to to consider the establish it. Of channels and direct perception. And that provides an alternative to Arms Controls proposals and many agree with that approach. The resolution was adopted by the general assembly this last fall. 164 votes for and only 12 against, among them russia, china, iran, syria, north korea, cuba and venezuela. On may 3rd, 2021 pursuant to the resolution for report on proposed next step, the State Department submitted our government views to the security general. Mr. Chairman, for many years, the international community has been focused on flawed legally binding space Arms Proposal at a time when the environment has grown in complexity and contested. Its time for a new approach primarily focused at least for now upon legally binding norms, rules and principles of behaviors in space and implementing these can help create a safer, more stable and predictable Space Environment for all space actors. Thank you very much and i look forward to the questions. Thank you very much, mr. Turner. Wed like to thank all witnesses and now well turn to member questions. I will begin with myself, but i only have two questions and i would encourage all members to keep this as brief as possible because we have a large number of members on the web excall today. The first question, you ended your statement, mr. Turner and second is this theme of voluntary, nonlegally binding effort in this regard. So it seems like weve given up on the idea of any punishment and going for spider webs instead. So is that the best we can do . A way to keep people to be in a more positive frame of mind . Do we know more than that . Thank you, sir, to are that question. I think we are trying to make the best out of what is possible at this given moment in time. Certainly, we do not exclude the possibility of legally binding treaties down the road, but thats not where we are given the kinds of competitions that are posed by Russia And China and been discussed by some of the speakers. So, we are starting with the approach where you can maybe start building with likeminded countries to develop these norms, get them to practice these norms and create Peer Pressure so the norms will also be respected by others and maybe over time develop more far reaching measures. Thank you. My next question for General Whiting. Weve talked about transferring Space Traffic Management out of the Air Force for some time. It seems to have taken years. Im hopeful that the Space Force will be done on a more timely basis because i dont want the space faring nations to turn to other nations to are their, you know, clear guidance on what collisions might take place. How quickly can we get the department of commerce pick up this ball and run with it . Mr. Chairman, thank you for that question. Were eager to work with the department of commerce and we found them to be an organization thats eager to take this on. We do care deeply about the Safety And Security of the domain which is why we made Space Track org available as we have over the years. My understanding now that theyve received resources to work toward this goal, we are working with them over the next couple of years to transfer that work. They have been partnered with us at our operating locations, such as at Vandenberg Air Force Base and well look forward to continuing that. I cant speak to exactly what their timeline is, but were eager to get this transferred in the next couple of years. Thank you very much. Now, turn to mr. Lamborn. Thank you, mr. Chairman, mr. Hill excuse me, mr. Widing. In your opinion as space been weaponized by China And Japan and what do you make of satellites that reportedly shadow other satellites . Congressman, yes, we have seen a weaponizization of space from China And Russia, the Inflection Point in the 21st century from the fall of the Berlin Wall and the dissolution of the soviet union around 1990, until 2007, many of those threats that had come up in the cold war had gone fallow. But we saw the China Construct a test and 3,000 pieces of debris on orbit we continue to track, about 10 of the total amount of objects we track on orbit still from that test 14 years ago. We continue to see the chinese building satellites like the 17, which is a chinese satellite with a robotic arm that could be used to grapple u. S. Or allied satellites. We know they have multiple Ground Laser systems which could blind or damage our satellite systems, in Addition Russia has several groundbased lasers that could jam or blind our satellites and its possible theyll build more later this decade. We know the russians have probable prototype antisatellite weapons on board including on orbit. Cosmos 2519, which is a russian on orbit Weapons System which burst out subsequent satellite and a subsequent third or second object, three total come out of that, cosmos 2519 and we believe that second possible is a projectile. And then we saw cosmos 2542 launched in late 2019 which appears to be a sim la are prototype to cosmos 2519 which would synchronize in orbit with the united States Government and when the united States Government moved our satellites, they resynchronized their orbit. They must have known what they were doing and obviously we do not support weapons tests near our satellites. And finally, russia has a new groundbased missile designed to destroy satellites in low Earth Orbit, but let me be clear even with the weaponization of space we do not want a war to extend into space and we want to do everything we can to deter that. Thank you. I appreciate that. Mr. Turner, im going to finish with you. In late 2019 weve already tested on that, russia launched a satellite that deployed a subsatellite that synchronized with a u. S. Satellite orbit. Its not the first time the russians have done this. If russians been told this was unacceptable behavior and if so, what was their response . Mr. Turner . Yes, it took me a second to turn my Sound Button on. Yes, we have met with the russians on some of these issues, and most of the discussions we have are less than satisfactory. The russians do not want to acknowledge that certain activities are indeed taking place. We have done our best to bring experts, military and diplomatic experts to some of the meetings to discuss these issues, but thus far the russians have not engaged in a satisfactory way. Finally, have there been any other national discussions with the russian and chinese or others, defining standards of Behavior Or Rendezvous and proximity operations . Mr. Turner . I dont not to my knowledge, actually. I mean, as we were saying, all of us, i think in our statements, we are just at the beginning of this process to start to define what some of these norms of behavior are. Which we would we hope defines such things as how much space to lose between the bodies out in space and how one might approach that, there was would be communications, there would be a number of things like that. But we are just at the beginning of this process now. So no direct communications with the chinese on this even though there have been preliminary discussions with the russians . He think our Dod Colleague would have more on that question. General widing, my time is almost done. Yeah, mr. Congressman, i am not aware of any discussion with the chinese, but i certainly would defer to mr. Hill. Congressman, if you like, we do not in the Defense Department have direct engagement with china regarding space, there are clear statutory limitations on dods actions with china as with russia. Thank you, mr. Chairman, i yield back. And i have more on the ranking member, mr. Chairman. Go aheadments we do engage with china on outer space through both bilateral and multilateral channels and our primary goal is to ensure Space Flight Safety and responsible behavior in outer Space And Weve been working to try to encourage china to improve between our respective satellite operations to avoid collections in orbit. And coordinating with china to assure their Satellite Navigation System does not cause interference with our gps satellites and we do have discussions and china is not part of the Artemis Accords, but we expect them to follow the norms and standards. We have been clear with them about that, as has been referred to in different context by my colleague bruce turner, the results have not been consistent or satisfactory. Now Chairman Castro. I have a question about the Artemis Accords to the panel. Artemis accords from the last administration and endorsed by the Biden Administration, represent a significant step forward in shaping norms for behavior in space and bringing our allies and partners to work with us on the return to the moon. Its also the first time since the Apollo Program where they maintain the goals of the previous administration and that the Artemis Program to succeed. Are the accords intended to exceed preexisting treaties . What is the binding of fact for the accords and signatories. What role will the Artemis Accords for norms and behavior in space . And finally, so far nene countries have signed the Artemis Accords including canada, the u. K. , australia, japan, italy, ukraine and uae, do you expect her countries to join . What steps is the administration taking to expand support for the accord . Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for that question. When we first started working with our colleagues in nasa and in the previous administration on the concept of the Artemis Accords. There was some discussion about making them legally binding. As that discussion continued, particularly with our space faring partners, it became clear that legally binding arrangements would also require parliamentary ratification and could take an extremely long time to negotiate. So the Artemis Accords, instead, as previously drawn up and endorsed by the bidenharris are not binding and theyre for cooperation in space and neither legally binding nor direct implications. For who has signed on for the Artemis Accords. Nine countries have signed on so far and were engaged in active negotiations with other countries interested in signing on throughout the world and this is a project that every continent where there are populations, many countries, whether theyre longterm allies or new friends and partners are very interested in joining us in a transparent effort to set values in space. All right. Anyone else . No . Okay, i yield back, chairman. Thank you, chairman. Ranking member. Thank you very much. I have a more general question, im just curious to know how the State Department and the department of Defense Coordinate on spacerelated activities, particularly when it relates to our partners, allies and adversaries . Its more of a broad question, but im looking for more insight. I dont mind starting this ball rolling. You know, of course, the State Department has the Lead Roll in basically in foreign policy outreach. In the case of the ab20 we are active in a number of multilateral organizations where we present our views because we have to do that competitively with the u. N. Frame work or the Congress Disarmament or any other number of other. And we have, of course, regular consultations with our nato allies and with our asian allies. And this is what our job is basically about. To go around and build support for the way that we want to do things and the United States is very fortunate to have a very broad network of allies which allows us to leverage our efforts and multiply them in a way thats generally know the available to countries such as Russia And China. So thats where the United States has an advantage and where consulting with our allies and building support for everything we do is really one of the most effective ways that the United States can achieve the kinds of goals that we have been talking about today. And of course, every step we take, even though we may have the lead on foreign policy issues. The only Thing Id like to say, all of these activities, especially involving Arms Control and some of the security issues is what we do as a result of an intense Interagency Process that brings in all the different players, the Intelligence Community and joins staff, et cetera, et cetera, and not depending on what is being discussed and what is at stake. Its quite an intensive process. And the department of defense then . Yes, representative. Ill be glad to give you some concrete examples of how dod were typically supporting the State Department in these cases because were talking about the diplomacy of the nation and for example, mr. Turner mentioned the talks. The civil space talks his office has with china and he mentioned, for example, the global Positioning System so we will provide an expert to support him because of course, the department of Defense Support that system and well support talks related to Spectrum And Deconfliction and so forth in that respect. The other example would be last summer, the United States and russia met in vienna in the context of Space Security Exchange there. This was related to many so other talks that were going on. Of course, the State Department led and organized it, but the department of defense, we sent one of the general colleagues, general shaw was there from the operational side and i operated from the Policy Side and we were able to present the state and diplomatic positions relative to the russians and that we found problematic. The third would be united Kingdom Resolution that passed in the general assembly and the united States Response to it. Again, we cooperated very closely in how the United States would put together the position. So the State Department can be confident that what they were carrying forward was something that was good for the National Security from our perspective here as well as good from the broader perspectives that they have to represent across the breadth of the government. Great. Im running out of time, but if you can fit it in, any thoughts on Russia And China and the Research Station on the moon and any concerns that congress should be aware of on that end . I didnt comment that we will keep a close eye on that and thats probably the most i can comment at this point, thank you. Thank you. The gentle ladys time has almost expired. I yield back thank you. It will mr. Langman, mr. Wilson, mr. Garamendi and mr. Issa. Thank you, mr. Chairman, i want to thank our witnesses for testifying todayment i appreciate your contributions to the discussion. Let me begin, several think thinks have already noted that cyber, electromagnetic spectrum and directed energy attacks are growing threats with spacex assets. And mr. Turner and mr. Moore, to what extent have you discussed regarding standards of responsible Space Behavior . Mr. Turner, start with you. What we have done in the report that weve just in the report that was just sent to the united nations, some of the issues thats not it. We have listed a number of the a number of the different kind of threats that to space and to date there are no standards for those threats at all. I mean, theyre being developed and there are no international rules to govern them, but as part of our contribution, we had a whole section describing the kind of threats that are out there. You know, ground to space, space to space. Ground to ground, space to ground and we talked about radio frequency interference, cyber threats to Command And Control, attacks on terrestrial Space Infrastructure, missiles discussed earlier, robotics, et cetera. So were at the stage of the process where were identifying the kind of threats that are out there and eventually this will lead them to principles of behavior for how nations should behave in space, but there are no formal agreements covering a number of these issues. Mr. Moore, any comment from you . Youre on mute, i think. Thank you, congressman lynch. And then bruce Turners Team and avc focuses more on the Security Side and we focus more on the civilian side of trying to set the standards and enforce u. S. Interests, so i apologize, i do not have more for you on that. Okay, let me ask you this. With respect to cyber, we already have norms related to the targeting of critical infrastructure. Id be curious to hear quickly from all of the witnesses, would you support designating space as a as a critical Infrastructure Sector . And i ask this because dhs is currently doing a congressionally mandated review of critical Infrastructure Sectors. I could step in here briefly and first, id like to clean up something i said previously. I referenced the civil talks, thats mr. Moores office, of course, not mr. Turners office. I misspoke previously. On this one with respect to the critical infrastructure question, my understanding is that space has been included as a critical infrastructure in the homeland security context. And there are individual defense assets that may be also included as defense critical infrastructure. I wasnt aware of that designation, but well take that One And Doublecheck on we will, too. And i think it certainly should be designated as critical infrastructure. So, understanding that you have to be able to adequately monitor the environment to enforce responsible behavior, general whitburg, how would you assess our Space Situation Awareness and capabilities . And actually before do any of the witnesses have any other thoughts on designating space and critical infrastructure . I would assume you would agree . Congressman, if i may, if i may offer a view, thats worth taking a more deeper look at. Im not certain that space has been designated as a critical Infrastructure Sector. Obviously, the question of cyber security is of paramount interest to the Bidenharris Administration and many of us at the State Department are working on that and in terms of space as a critical infrastructure wed have to review that and get back to you. Fair enough. Yeah, i see my time is about to expire. Any other witnesses on critical infrastructure . Mr. Congressman, nothing on the critical from capabilities, we have the best in the world and thats why we make available so much of that information through Space Track. Org to promote a safe, stable, and secure space domain, but with the growing threats that i spoke to earlier we need to improve that Domain Awareness Capability to help to know when any future norms are violated from our perspectives watch for threat and give good indications and warnings of potential bad actors in space. The gentlemans time had as expired. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Wilson . This you very much, for this important joint hearing. Addition will i, additionally id like to thank the witnesses, you each some off as impressive and your service to our country is appreciated. And in terms of questions, general, what steps have been made through our partnerships through the combined spags Operations Center . Thank you for that question. Weve made combined steps through the initiative we have allied personnel across many of our formations including at vandenberg and u. S. Space command, our Combatant Command now has an operation olympic defender which some of those countries signed up to which means we operate daytoday in space with them and at vandenberg works with their military Space Operation centers on a daily basis. The unique pairing of countries that we are blessed to have, thats an advantage for the United States and that progress. I share your view about being blessed and what are some of the leading countries. Closest allies, canada, the united kingdom, australia and others. Those, again, best wishes on that. And mr. Hill, expanding the commercial Space Infrastructure is uniquely american solution to increasing capability of resilience. Im impressed with the ingenuity of the private sector to augment the efforts to keep space accessible and stable. What is the appropriate level of Government Oversight necessary to assure the commercial entities are well integrated into a framework, how should the administration incorporate them into a Defense State Strategy . Thank you, congressman wilson. On the Commercial Space, theres a number of places going on. First of all, with respect to your Question Kind of touched on regulation in one respect and a major overhaul that took place in the past year that d0. D worked on closely that brought us out of regulation, into the 2020s era and we have much more prolific commercial capabilities and we need to let that competitive sector compete around the world. And the Defense Department benefits from having that strong commercial sector, so, a big change in the philosophy there. We also, of course, leverage u. S. Commercial Space Innovation and our Space Launches off commercial launch providers, for example, growing situational awareness capabilities that we interlead with our own capabilities. And so, depending on the sector, we use more or less. There are some areas where commercial doesnt find a great market so we have to put more Government Investment and other places like Satellite Communication and tremendous opportunity to leverage commercial. Its exciting to see the mutual Benefit And Mr. , that includes several lines of efforts, one of which is to better inform international and public audience to the growing and material efforts in space. What can congress do to assure a stable space . Sometimes i forget to unmute. Todays hearing is one such step, i think, because we would this is available on live streaming so presumably all of us can hear whats going on. I think earns M Need to be made aware of how much they actually depend on space for their not only for their security, but also for their prosperity. We can we do a certain amount of outreach as well thats effective in that regard. And of course, i think one of the things that ensures that this will reach the right audiences is that thus far, our efforts in space have been supported by a bipartisan concensus in congress and its sort of like, you know, the old saying that domestic Policy End on americas shores. I think it also needs to end where we start to leave the atmosphere and get into outer space. So ill leave it at that for right now. New very much. And indeed, chairman leading the bipartisanship. Ill yield back. Thank you, mr. Garamendi, are you still with us . Mr. Garamendi . If not, mr. Issa, are you still with us . We will no, im with you. Okay. Thank you. I think im going to continue pretty much with the same line of questioning that weve been doing, so change it up a little bit. General, i think, maybe you can handle this sort of as a joint representative. In the domains that weve operated on during your career, sea, land, air, we have international rules and conventions and theyre broadly agreed to and signed on by all the parties that weve mentioned here today. Would you say thats fair to say . Yes, sir, i would. As we sit here today, we will have today, tomorrow, or certainly last week and in the next three weeks, we will have iranian gun boats that will enter our space and endanger ships. We may or may not have another taking of our maritime folks and of course, china is building islands and in complete violation of right of ways for countries throughout that region, its beginning to encroach or not allow people to have hundreds of years of free travel. So would you say that as we look to space, is there any special reason not to believe that all of the factors that affect air, Land And Sea around our hemisphere, that any of those will be significantly different . In other words, can we not expect at least similar activity as we have similar bad actors or the same bad actors who are already in space, such as China And Russia . Mr. Congressman, thanks for the question. Certainly, i think those analogies are useful, but if we push them too far, analogies will start to break down because there is sovereign maritime space, there is no sovereign space space, in space. There are differences to work through and we believe in Space Force, that the establishment of voluntary, nonlegally binding norms of responsible behavior will help us to identify when others are acting outside of those norms and when theyre acting irresponsibly much like when were on the Interstate And Everyone is following the rules you can quickly see who those are that are dangerous and not follow the rules. We think that would be a positive step for the space domain. And i agree with you, and as a followup and i do agree that theres certain sovereign states, but using the 2007 in which china demonstrated its ability to destroy a satellite in deep space, albiet its own that activity was certainly outside of any reasonable interpretation of their sovereign rights, wouldnt you agree . Well, certainly, its irresponsible, mr. Congressman, with 3,000 pieces of debris on orbit and 10 of the trackable objects on orbit. I cant imagine what led them to do that and to continue to pollute the domain and put us all at risk. So the history of the of our planet being at relative peace for the last half of the last century was primarily through a combination of international agreements and an agree of enforcement that the United States and its allies, notably nato and others, enforced with a periodic enforcement by the united nations. So, in the remaining time, if you could answer sort of one of those great questions for all time, isnt it fair to say we must go forward and establish those international rules and draw in as many convention signers including potential bad actors as possible, but also form those alliances that would mimic in space, if necessary, the same sort of alliances that have, in fact, kept us relatively peaceful for the last 70plus years . Dont we sort of have to do all of them. Produce the u. N. , produce the agreements, but also build those alliances with the expectations that just as in the past, the future, there will be those who will not respect the very agreements that theyve signed . Mr. Congressman, weve certainly seen nato recognized as a domain in the last years and we see being likeminded countries that we operate with put more concern on space and that is to our benefit, we can now coalesce around the responsibility behaviors and work on further agreements down the road. I think its only good to bring more and more partners and allies into these discussions. Thank you, mr. Chairman, i yield back. Gentlemans time is given back. And id like to give General Whiting the opportunity, saying that not much is in sovereign in space. I would say that each individuals entities and capsules are sovereign even though theyre travelling through space. Thank you, i was referring to the physical space itself which is in the outer space domain, not to manmade objects, thank you for that clarification. Thank you. Mr. Garamendi. I stepped away for a moment. Clearly we have a situation on the military side of it, space is a domain for war and unfortunately, we are all not just the United States, China And Russia, but others rapidly militarizing space with the anticipation that there could be trouble in the future and it happens to create an extraordinary risk when all of our countries are dependent upon space for early knowledge of what the others may be doing. Im going to leave that aside, and, went into it in some detail. I want to deal with the commercial side of it. Weve seen a very rapid evolution, or evolved evolution of commercial activity in space. For many different reasons. Almost so that our military no longer depends solely on itself for highly detailed photos of whats going on in the world. Weather reporting on and on. So, lets talk about norms on the commercial side of the activity, putting aside for the moment the military side for which i suspect the norm is he who is strongest will win at the end of the process and well all be dead. Let go ahead on the commercial side. Lets go with the dod. What is your interest to the commercial and then to the other two witnesses, ending up with the State Department. Congressman garamendi, very, very much interested in that. I think a good example of dod and the commercial community working with respect to norms have been the sponsorship that the Defense Advance Research Projects Agency did with the group, the acronym, i forget the name of the acronym, but described a body bringing together commercial people with government and talking how to do orbit surfacing and rendezvous proximity operations and figuring out what are the property ways to do that and when do you need to have permission . Its a User Community Interest group and if you think back a long time in history, the international telecommunications started out in that same way, community of interest coming together on it. I think its sort of pulling off on its even and the commercial community is probably taking more of a lead in that, but thats the kind of example where we will partner with the commercial community to figure out how do we encourage the stakeholders to take on the public, the interest of the common . Thank you very much. Congressman garamendi, if i may jump in as well. As has been mentioned earlier in the hearing today. One of the difficulties we face, of course, with Russia And China they werent commercial activities. When it comes to the United States when we have partners like spacex and origins, they operate with standards, and help set the standard and through the Artemis Accord working through that vision and those values and standards. Other countries and potential space operators are very interested in joining part of that process. One of the problems with the process is there are over 90 countries in it and it does its work by concensus, if one does not agree and in broader, na makes that the standard for the world. Thank you. Anybody else want to jump in on this . Just briefly. Just to say building on what Jonathan Moore just said, there are opportunities there, of course, when our commercial sector leads, we start to set the standards and the standards for everyone and then countries such as Russia And China are maybe forced to deal with those standards as well and maybe would apply them to their own effort. So, and again, thats one of the advantages of developing the systems of norms. Thank you. I will just stand in 20 seconds. It seems on the military side were not going to get very far, its good to talk and more talk is better. On the commercial side, building on what was said about allies on the military side, working to use our current leadership and to develop a commercial set of standards and then allow the others to join would be very, very fruitful. Mr. Cooper, i yield back. Thank you. The gentlemans time is expired. The next four questioners will be mr. Molten, mr. Waltz, mr. Carbajal and mr. Brooks. So, now mr. Molten. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I want to continue on a consistent theme throughout this hearing, which is on effective endorsement. Without effective enforcement, rules and norms limit our activity in space, but do nothing to limit the malign activities by our adversaries let me be clear, im saying that its not worth pursuing, but if we dont have the voluntary nonlegally binding rules or expect our adversaries to abide by norms in space, what happens when they violate them. Thank you for calling me sorry. We see this issue in cyber space, weve got international actors who are emboldened to attack in cyber without retribution. What are the roux he will real consequences setting down rules to be ignored and how do we actually respond and deal with this more effectively . Those are some very good questions. Its always a very complicated issue, compliance with whether its legally binding obligations in the case of treaties or whether youre talking about politically binding, nonlegally binding commitment in other areas. Each one has its advantages and its disadvantages. The advantage of a treaty, whether its a legal obligation, so, in some. Ways, you could argue that a violation is more straight forward, except if youve ever worked with a lawyer, you would note, one of the things that you get into, you get into these very, very difficult and complicated interpretations of what the treaty actually says and that can be also a very long process. One of the advantages, just because its not a legally binding norm, does not mean that its not a norm, and does not mean that you cannot call somebody out for violating that norm. Nor does it mean that you cant take potential action if an actor is not complying with that particular norm. In some cases, you may even have more flexibility to react in those kinds of situations precisely because its not a legally binding agreement. And then lastly, i would just add that with all of these kinds of norms, even when certain actors violate those norms, they often paid a price for doing so and in todays social Media Environment or Media Environment, whatever you want to call it, where so much depends on the narrative, who is doing the right thing, and who is not doing the right thing, it can still be useful, a useful way to put diplomatic and public pressure on malign actors. And not a lawyer, it seems to me this has to be a lot more clear and hoping that one of our adversaries will get shamed on social media does not seem like an effective strategy here. General, i have a question for you on the same theme. So a rulesbased order in any domain requires a certain level of Transparency And Trust and i understand there is a current effort by u. S. Space force and Space Policy for potentially declasse declassification, and verification of our own behavior and assuring that systems and activities that were not prepared to share . Thank you, mr. Congressman for that question. Certainly, i would say that were the most transparent country when it comes to our activities in space through the website that i mentioned earlier, Space Track. Org that we make available to the world because we care about preserving the domain for our longterm orangeses there and operations there and we will continue to make information available and just like any domain were not showing where they are if i may interrupt, do you can we have that right or too much is classified for the transparency that we need to i would say its not an end state, its a journey so were working to get na balance right. I think weve made important strides and well continue to do those reviews to make as much information as possible to as many people as possible to ensure that domain is safe. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank the gentleman for yielding. Mr. Waltz, are you with us . Mr. Waltz . Calling mr. Waltz . Hes not. Mr. Carbajal. Here i am. Im having glitches here. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I apologize for the technical difficulties i was having. One of the most pressing issues to be addressed is obviously Debris Mitigation. The Space Force is tracking about 30,000 pieces of debris with a half million other objects in orbit too small to track. While the Space Debris mitigation guidelines of the united Nations Committee on peaceful uses of outer space was endorsed by the united nations general assembly in 2007, rand recently reported that the guidelines lacked measures for Accountability And Compliance with the Debris Mitigation guidelines and that it is the biggest contributor to greater collision risk. General whiting, based on the level of Space Debris and voluntary international policy, will there be a point where there will be an unacceptable risk posed by Space Debris to the united States Space assets, including both National Security and commercial operations . Mr. Congressman, thank you for the question. I certainly want to communicate that we are concerned about the growing congestion in space, but i think certainly over the next several years, we have we have processes in place to make sure that we can continue to safely operate, but we do support intergovernmental measures that will reduce debris and ill defer to my colleague, mr. Hill, maybe what the department of defense is doing in that regard. Mr. Hill . Yeah, a little so we in 2019, the united States Government updated our orbital Debris Mitigation standard practices that goes well beyond what the united nations practices are and in fact, they drew from a lot of department of defense and existing regulations, providing much clearer statements of the hazard risk, more options for how to get debris out of orbit, particularly for higher orbits over final. The but there is absolutely an as General Whiting said, concern, and particularly in the low Earth Orbit region where things get crowded in some of the polar orbits in particular. The emergence in the commercial sector and some government support, some places of potentially active Debris Removal is encouraging, but i think theres a lot of work to be done in this respect. Thank you very much. General whiting, in your testimony you write that some discussions of the mill to Mill Level can be challenging and more often than not what constitutes responsible behavior. The message for responsible behavior and call out. And what is the international accepted framework . Mr. Congressman, each countries that we have discussions with, and these are allied countries, they have their legal frame works and policy traditions and we work through those such as the war Games Table top exercise that we conduct every year. Through that we find theres coalescing around generally acceptable ways of operating professional. We will think through dialog we can work through those kinds of issues. Thank you. Mr. Turner and mr. Moore, commercial companies are heavily invested in satellites and launch services. Space technology these companies are developing has the propensity to be tools used which creates new challenges. Is the federal government encaging with commercial actors as part of the discussions in developing rules and norms and can you comment how dual technology is being considered . I mean, i think i would defer to my colleague from oes on the commercial aspects of that. But from a security standpoint, of course, this is one of the issues with developing rules of behavior and one of the issues when youre talking about threats in space is were very acutely aware of the fact that a number of things are dual use, simply by nature, where they can either have benefits or they can potentially be used against satellites. So, its one of those issues that you that needs to be talked about and again, why we are in favor of these rules of behavior. Congressman carbajal. Talking about aspects of dual use, were trying to support the development of the commercial sector, again, a place where companies in the United States are leading the way and setting the standard, hoping again to return us to iss so were not dependent on other countries for that. But as part of the broader efforts including the Artemis Accords to build partnerships and values and visions on space, again workser grateful for the strong endorsement of this administration for those tools, Thats Part of the discussion with the commercial sector. Thank you very much. Im out of time. Mr. Chair, i yield back. Thank you. The gentleman is, in fact, out of time. We tried to get mr. Waltz earlier. He was not available. Mr. Brooks was next and he has logged off. So i think the next questioner will be mr. Lu. Thank you, chairman cooper, and Chairman Castro for holding this important hearing. I am very thankful for the expertise from our panelists today. I was active Air Force and now do my guard duty, im thrilled that the Space Command has chosen to have one of the three major Space Commands at los angeles. And every Day Space is more important and i want to clarify a question asked earlier, the reason theres confusion there are approximately 16 critical sectors, the chemical sector, communications sector, energy sector, space is not one of them. However, if there is, for example, a space Communications Satellite that would arguably be captured within the communication sector, designated critical infrastructure, to alleviate the confusion and to capture everything in space, im working on legislation that would, in fact, designate space and goes in line with the former administration and this administrations focus on space. So my first question is to secretary moore. I note, first of all, that you speak eight languages, super impressed by that, but i note that your title didnt include space anywhere in it and at the same time the department of defense created an entire Space Force dedicated just to space. Do you think its a good Idea Or Shouldnt we have a State Department he will evaluate space or stand alone . Congressman, thank you very much for your service, both in uniform and in the house of representatives and thank you for an excellent question. Im very priested to tell you across the list of endeavors in the bureau of oceans and environmental and scientific affairs, we have nine action offices and one is the office of space affairs. It is staffed by a number of diplomates and experts with advanced degrees, including in astro physics. Its the core teams with diplomates in Lock Step with Space Command and nasa and congratulations to administrator nelson. And the Word Space may not appear in our title, but because of the tasks that we have here in the bureau which has a fairly long name as it stands, i can assure you that space is front and center and for all of these reasons were grateful to testify today and respond not just to your questions today, but with you and your staff as we have done in the past and with many offices in congress, to help explain and gain Information And Guidance from you. Thank you. I just request you and others at the State Department consider having states not just as an office, but as a separate bureau. My next question goes to General Whiting and thank you for your service as well, sir. So we have currently other countries, such as China And Russia who dont necessarily follow, and as you know, china has done antisatellite weapons tests. Thank you for the question. My perspective the real danger with those tests and were talking that tests now, are the longlived debris like the chinese debris we continue to have to operate round today. I think we do want to establish a norm that no actions in space, no countries actions if they should create longlived debris. With that i would defer to mr. Hill on questions of legality regarding those tests. To pick up on from what General Whiting just said, in terms of tests, youre correct. There is no Prohibition Today on antisatellite tests. There is quite a bit of scorn to be earned as john earned china earned in 2007 with the test. The question if you were to try and prohibit weapons is, space, what is the definition of a weapon . Theyre so inherently dual use, lasers can be used for communications, lasers can be used for weapons. And it goes on from there. So the practicalities, then verifiability, enforceability of that. What we will have to focus on in the long run is reducing the benefits that people might seek to derive from deploying capabilities as weapons. That goes to resilient and to Mission Assurance, which is a longer topic. Thank you. I yield back. The time of the gentleman has expired. I did not know mr. Moore was so multilingual but i did notice from the video he has the largest office of anyone on the call, so congratulations on that. Mr. Walz is back so now mr. Waltz. Thank you, mr. Chairman and thank you, everyone. Mr. Hill, as an ost a long its great to see you in this capacity. Its been a long time. I want to ask you about thinking through how we establish deterrence in space. As many of you have said, and many of my colleagues have said, our entire modern economy could be greatly adversely impacted should some of these assets taken down. We are seeing the chinese in particular increase their reliance is, their Gps System comes online. There military increasingly projects and is also becoming increasingly dependent. How do we attack deterrence in space . I know the Vice Chairman is working on a declassification effort, but i want them to know what we can do and what we cant do and what we are willing to do as a deterrent measure. What efforts are along those lines . Mr. Hill, i will go to you first but anyone can feel free to answer. It is good to see you again. After many years. So deterrence in space, we spent quite a bit a focus on this and as i i started to mentioned iy previous response, front nation that is highly dependent on space, both in our civil life, our daily martial life, private allies well as in our military life, it is fundamentally important, should be a norm to have reliability, Mission Assurance of capabilities at a level commensurate to the level on which we rely on those capabilities. That was the case when we didnt have adversary threats in space. And when sessums for first design. You had to design for the natural environment threats, you had to design for jan into did that. But as these more modern conventional threats have emerged, we have to transition our architectures and this is back to some of the commercial points earlier. Leveraging innovation is come out of the commercial sector and the significant cost reductions that weve seen both in Launch And Space capabilities themselves allows us to do entirely different architectural approaches. It takes time to transition so you have to protect what you have today but you will my transition architectures that are more inherently vulnerable, and as in any other domain you have the ability to accept and survive combat casualties. Thats a key part of denying the benefit of attack. With respect to the other side the difference, the Cost And Position site of things, thats one where you may be looking a lot more across domain types of activities. It may be the place to impose costs on somebody for unacceptable activity may not be in the space domain. It may be elsewhere. Those are some of the things to think about. What im try to get that and maybe your State Department collects a better transit that is what are we communicating that we willing and capable to do . Because thats how this judgments, miscalculations happen. And so to your State Department colleagues what are we communicating now and in terms of our capabilities and our will . One of the reasons we had a meeting in july with the russians about this issue was to communicate very clearly to them the kinds of concerns that we have about things that they are doing. This is for the same reason the Biden Administration is interested in begin strategic Ability Dialogue with the russians that will cover nuclear and other issues as well but the whole point is to explain very clearly to them what our concerns are, what we do not want them to do, and to try to iron out some of these rules of the road so the know exactly kinds of risks they are taking that engage in certain kinds of behavior. One of the things im most concerned about is our nuclear Command And Control systems. When we are talking about standards in terms of how close you can get, what types of activities you can do now that other countries are up in geosynchronous, i think we need to be very clear on our end but also make it clear on their end so we dont have those kind of catastrophic miscommunications. Mr. Chairman, my time has expired and i yield. Thank you. I appreciate the judgment being so precise, thank you. We have completed i think the first round of questioning. And i was going to cut it off. Weve been in session from about an hour and 45 minutes. Are there any members who have a final question they would like to ask . If not, then i want to thank the witnesses for their excellent testimony. I want to thank the members for showing up and posing such good questions. I want to thank the staff for assembling all this. So its hard to have a remote hearing but this went very well. Its certainly an important and possibly historic hearing that we had today to get these efforts underway, so thank you for being part of this historic effort. Mr. Chairman . Fingering is now adjourned with Chairman Castro owes permission. Coming up at noon eastern a discussion on future of u. S. Trade policy hosted by the atlantic council. Live coverage here on cspan2 again starting at noon eastern. Congress is back in session today. The House Return for legislative business at 2 00 eastern. On the agenda moving forward with the commission to review that january 6 attack on the capitol and a supplemental Spending Bill for added security on capitol hill. The sin is in three to take up the endless Frontier Act authorizing 110 billion for Technology Research to help the u. S. Compete with china. A procedural vote is set for 5 30 p. M. Eastern. They are expected to continue work on that through the week as well as more of president bidens nominees. Watch gavel to Gavel Coverage of the senate live on cspan2, the house live on cspan. Cspan is your unfiltered view of government. We are funded by these television companies and more including wow. The world has changed. Today the Fashion Level Internet Connection Something no one can live without so wow is therefore our customers with speed, reliability, value and choice. Now more than ever it all starts with great internet. Wow. 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