Long time ago when i was first starting on this book and it is just a real privilege sharing the virtual stage with you looking forward to the conversation. But thank you. My pleasure for doing this as well. Yeah, by the way, i also really love to hear that you read it was leak a story because that is something important to me not always i dont know whether i was succeed in doing this or not but something that i always try to do in any writing. Im a great believer in the idea that it is historian we have a responsibility to tell a story. We are uniquely positioned, you know, i think in many ways to be able to do that because at the ensd of the day that is what we do that is the nature of our discipline and if we arent able to bring human stories to life im not sure what were doing. So i try to do that and write this book in a way that would be valuable to experts and scholars i went to iran three times to do our research for this book and i hope i brought fresh information to light that people didnt know about before. But i you know, also really wanted it to be a book that you can give to your Uncle Or Aunt or grandmother who loves to read history. And holdup hopefully be a enjoyable story as well. I was born in iran i was oneyearold when we moved to u. K. So i grew up outside london, and then in high school we moved to Los Angeles Los Angeles Match to many people surprise i had i dont think i had a single iranian friend probably only person in l. A. Iranian or not who never really hung out with a lot so it wasnt actually in some weird way wasnt part of my upbringing and i went to undergrad on east coast in rhode island and back to grad School And Phd and live inside london for few years and bounced around a lot not nearly as of as you have actually you know i studied british history and did ph. D. In early british history and wrote on british travelers including tha when Interest Kind of began. I think like a lot of people of middle east heritage i found after September 11th it was dit to ignore the region. I think that being iranian never meant anything to me but it was not a big apartment of not what i was interested in for pursuing but that began to change gradually over last couple of deck cads. And my first book was work of journalist about africa and oil politics and second book i wanted to come to iran in some way and i wasnt sure exactly how. And i thought, you know, im a historian it has been done before and wrote a excellent history and what can i bring that was different one is no one wants to taken a story back to the beginning. So that was kind of how this came about. Thats great john. Interesting my background is similar to yours im much older. Sadly but predate the revolution i also was born in iran and left when i was 8 and my father was a diplomat, and moved around, went to American School, and Boarding School in england and then back to the states. And when i was growing up, iran my classmates didnt know what iran was. They didnt care, it was not in the news practically ever. Unless you were following foreign Relations Iran was not on anyones radar. Some people had heard of the persian empire and in school we studied greek and greeks and romans we didnt study persian empire it wasnt commonly known. After the revolution suddenly, i was in colleged at the time suddenly everyone knew iran, and 1979, but hardly anyone knew that there was this long, long history of being allies, of being friends, of just a fascination on both sides. And you really get into this in the book, can you tell me a little bit about the very beginning i think this is going to be interesting to a lot of people who are watching and who will read book is you know, how did it senator why did the u. S. And iran which was, you know, 8,000 miles away at the time before the u. S. Existed when it was still colonies . How did this fascination begin . Yeah thats thats a part of the history that i think is absolutely fascinating. And i can spend hours and hours going on about but the short version. You know, one of the first things i noticed when i started reading other Peoples History and relations is they all began especially ones written by american historians they began around 1940. And i understand why that is. Because before 19 before pearl harbor, you must basically in isolation of Power And Iran might as well have been antarctica no u. S. Interest in the part of the world so this, you know, the feeling of why studied relationship for that . That i think makes sense in a way but i think it is also kind of a problematic way to look at history because what that basically is saying that history of u. S. Iran relations only begins when the u. S. Becomes interested. And i think what ive realized in process of doing research for this book was just how much we miss when we do that just the fact that for 90 years, dating back to 1850s iran was very interested in getting the u. S. More and more involved in its affairs. U. S. Wasnt really interested. But that also an important part of the story. Just because Washington Wasnt interested that doesnt mean there wasnt anything going on. Mere pangt that iran and excessive iranian government wanted to develop a closer relationship with the United States in order to sending a message it to the british and russian empire which at the time were pressuring an iran and interfering in affairs and causing a lot of among iranians and so iran wanted to develop a socalled third force a third alliance to wave in the face of the britain and russia. And the United States was a country they kept turning to why well this is fascinating they believed that the u. S. As a country that had a revolution against the british empire and against imperialism would understand irans plight. The u. S. Seem to be a country that didnt care about empire. And indeed the fact was almost like the more the u. S. Ignored iran the more iran liked the u. S. It was sort of admired the fact that the u. S. Was very handle off and foreign policy. But they also admire fact that u. S. Is progressing economically, and militarily, and politically and many ways but they admire the fact that it didnt have an embassy in tehran only americans they knew were these missionaries these presbyterian missionaries to build clinics and their government was uninterested not involved. And that made u. S. Very appealing. And more they learn about america more they liked about it. That alone is kind of interesting. The very first disagreement that Pus And Iran had with each other was in the 1850s, and this went on for several years it was when they were trying to negotiate their first treaty of french 1851 they began negotiating and didnt come to agreement until 1856 ratifying 1857 longer to negotiate than nuclear deal than the jcpoa in 1850s you kind of what would u. S. And iran argue about in 1850s get this right. Theyre arguing many Things Bun of the Sticking Poangt was that iranian wanted u. S. More involved in their affairs and u. S. Was saying no we dont want to tell you what to do we dont want to get involved in your business. The iran actually requested american warships, they requested in persian golf and stripes to fly from shipping in persian gulf to sending a message to britain in u. S. , of course they said no i think entangling lines thats the first Disagreement Theyve had and incredible looking back years later this is where relations began, with the u. S. Saying no. We dont want to get vod in your Business And Iran saying no please we want you more involved in our business we want alliance with the United States. Thats the political element and ill stop here. But because i want it not to be just about politics and start Request Beginning of diplomatic relations but what makes u. S. Unique is unlike britain, russia, or many of the other european its relationship with iran, you know, going back well before any political diplomatic relationship with presbyterian mission and also with a certain mentality a certain cultural baggage that North Americans brought that iranians brought to this and why i started. Right, and there was this fascination with persia. I mean persia sounds western so much prettier than iran or iran or iran or however it gets pronounced. And particularly african revolution less interesting for many people in terms of being fascinating place. Bearded men and the the headscarf covered women. But there was a fascination i think back into the 1700s where you start your book the fascination with persia how many people will be educated Ones Nobody Persia at that point what had been the empties for people to seek that out . This blew my mind when i was doing research because i never expected to find this but it is true what would someone in the 18th Century North America know about the persian empire and get those right. So what really amazed me is i started looking ill keep this really teffly short but i started looking at the first newspaper published in North America and in Philadelphia And Boston and 1720s and before u. S. Even existed. They were obsessed with the weekly newspapers were devoted to what was happening in iran. They were i even come across one newspaper with the headline said we regret we have no news from persia this week. That was the headline in philadelphia or maybe it was in 1720s the leading News Story sorry no news from iran this week. Dont expect to find that going in and reason briefly, iran was a big intergnarl News Story i would say a big rebellion against persian empire and afghan rebellion. And from the east because the persians trying to force afghans to convert to islam. Well americans assumed that if because of the sunni thing must have been behind it and colluding with the Empire And Pelf empire i would say the terrible turks a crusade all of this kind of Stuff And Baggage because they were rivals two great powers of the muslim world must be okay because theyre rivals of the evil turks. And the fact that they were shia and viewed by the Majority World and somehow less modern and Hair Tick made them even more appealing seen as less muslim and came across a newspaper they described the rivalry between persians as being a conflict between, quote, muslims and persians which is such an interesting way of describing it right saudis still say that. Wishful thinking. So this was this on top that there was a religious fact that iran with the persian Empire Wasnt in control of the religious side of jerusalem or any of these things on top of all of that you talk about where they get the information, well, puritans especially in new England Call Van scientist they believe true literal word of god this pepght to know about middle east theyre going open up the Bible And Iran looks really good because you have cyrus, liberating jews from the Ezra Book one and three maji probably iranian three wise men from the east so iran looks good in the bible. And you know, looks like rival to babylon all of the rest of it which is evil great evil force of the babylonian seen as having inherited that for all of these weird reasons and this is the mentality that americans came into before any contact with iran first missionary 100 years later Justin Perkins in 1834 first word he used to describe what he saw in order the word he used was edenic because they actually believed that guardsen of eden was somewhere around to east of the biblical site and no threat to christian Europe Or Kind of ideology so some many ways it was this harmless exotic oriental kingdom to east of the arab and turkses and muslims things they hated and it was less muslim less evil. I argue that mentality is still with us in the is 1970s when you look at how americans talk about iran and talk about the shah and they talk about kind of proamerican kind of Xot Pick Kingdom so on thats the east it have this troublesome arab world amazing how much of that baggage stays with us and iranian have their own version of it but ill stop. It is thats absolutely fascinating the idea that a new state without too much news but do you think there was a period, i mean, in terms of the american population i think general population, im not going back to 1722 but in general over the last lets say hundred years from the 19 well maybe even from World War ii lets say from you pointed out. The general image of iran has been for americans have been leak oh, iran is great place you said all the way into the 70s this kind of interesting place great carpets interesting cats good pistachios kind of like people because we werent here in america back then. We were over there. [laughter] but there was a point at which iranians started to view america differently and my curiosity is here in your research did you find that iranians started to see america as not quite the benevolent force it was in 1944 or in 1953 and we can get to 53 later. But in World War ii, and ill let you talk about it. How the u. S. Along with russia and great britain now the three great powers were allied because of the war, came and deposed the shaw, the shaw at the time and favor of his son who was viewed to be more malleable and shot at the time viewed to be progerman and had, in fact, been sympathetic to the nazis. Yes. Thats a great question very loaded rich Question Elf like three or four in one. But yeah it is. I mean this is a great question this idea of was there ever kind of a golden age . I try to set up book at the beginning by saying look you probably should come to this book you know about 199 and Hostage Crisis and iran evolution all of that kind of stuff especially if youre american and for iranian they have their version of this 1953cia back through and very popular prime minister and so not going to assume that everyone here knows all of this history but a lot people do, so im, you know, i didnt want to focus too much on that i said what about, you know, a lot of times people, you know especially iranians will sort of for anyone put this this way critical of u. S. Policy and you want to blame u. S. More. You mention 1953 as this kind of team when Everything Changed when, you know, u. S. Overthrew by popular government thats when a lot began against the u. S. Particularly among elgted middle class and iran, the very people is that should have naturally been the most proamerican and were really up until 1953. But i think whats interesting i dont to challenge that narrative but whats interesting is okay so Everything Change after 1953 what does it look like before all of that. If you ask people who want to insist on 53 as origin sin, you know, theres kind of a Asudges Everything was great until the u. S. Overthrew, you know, and okay. Tell me in what way usually People Cant do that but what was 1930s, 20s, 10 yeah i think you could talk about that period as the Closes Thing we ever deem a kind of golden age of u. S. Iran Relationship And Nflt saying it a certain generation iranians, probably very familiar in your family as well i imagine. You know, and old great states of iranian and foreign prime minister but also former ambassador to the u. S. He was ambassador to u. S. In early 1920s and he was he loved going around to all of these towns in middle america, and his line he used is it is hard to get beyond Captain Carpet reminded of that when you were setting up about persian carpets and pistachios and so on. Because that is the extent to which most americans really understood iran and most iranian it was a wild west exciting Cowboy And Cop and robber John Wayne Movies Kind of glamorous prosperous kind of place that seemed really benign in a lot of wayings because it wasnt imperialistic and a lot of love for the kind of ideals of the 1920s as well. There were proamerican riots on the streets of iran in 1919 i think Thats Something that really is something that kind of extraordinary to think about today just 100 years ago so about your original question. But you know basically way too long of a question i apologize for that. But the if we can get to 50 post 53 peed which a lot of preem more aware of. But between 44 and 53 when you have a you young shaw completely inexperienced how old was he 20 and his father have been sent to exile by great powers, and in that short period i happen to know that america was still considered this great place and at least by educated class in upper class and middle class whatever you want to call them, and you know people prefer to buy chevrolet if they could and Whirlpool Dishwasher if they could, and no they didnt use Dishwasher Washing Machine whatever it was they did Refrigerators Catalog and whatever. You could even see and i remember like visiting the iran 19 early late 60s actually and Bowling Alley on what was the avenue which was the hot place to go. And i actually remember seeing the Shaw Son at the Bowling Alley. Surrounded by body guards one time and must have been like ten years old or something and late 60s or early 70s but anyway, so there was this affection that iranians stl had for things americans for america itself, and, obviously, there was a lot of decent there was decent by the clerks and religious classes really religious who felt that shaw was, you know, too secular i assume that went back into the 40s as well. But that was my original question sorry to make it long. Yeah. I dont know youve had more interesting right now but the 1940s it is a fascinating period in relations most americans dont know this u. S. Was one of the three occupying occupy iran. And one of the three along with soviet union and great britain and first made large scale between ordinary americans because 30,000 u. S. G irk from 1933 to 45 getting supply to supplies from british positions in the Peerings Gulf using railway this was many of them stationed in iran and stories about kind of call them johnny and used to get drunk and go to brussels and you know it wasnt necessarily dignified introduction to america per se. But you know, yeah i think thats a lot to say about war years but i like what youre saying about 60s it happens gradually theres a gradual disillusion youre right i think the middle class is educated the probably the last to become fully disillusion for the United States i think it starts, you know, to some extent with religious but starts more with left really particularly from the no simply in 1960s. You know, as i say in the book you know, the United States was in a awkward position by the 1970s because you have three main threads of opposition to the shaw right the left which is of all Kinds Markist socialist sort of, and the sort of liberal Democrat Sort of old people, and a kind of growing religious radical kind of almost say religious putting it in left, right term not quite fit. But what was ironic all three of these were angry by the shaw by 1970s and all three for their different reason by the 1970s had different special reason for really being angry with the United States. And that was the potent mix right, sort of lethal cocktail that really exploded which is that on the left, of course, they didnt need a lot of reasons you know hard left is going hate the United States in 1970s for its own reasons just you know obvious you know for a Reason Hate Capitalism you know all of that. And u. S. Is ultimate embodiment of all of those things. The religious figures who from much of their history has been, you know, so the left much of its history has been prosoviet and so on, and antiamerican yeah. But not in a really radical way but a huge generation of leftist so they have malice and much more radical same with the religious leaders they were very quiet and kind of proestablishment figures and up until 40s and 60s and after the 60s they started to become more angry with idea of kind of western decadence and you know the sort of antireligious qualities that the regime was taking on and u. S. Was oven, you know, kind of people bodiment of that and then in the middle you have liberal nationalist who under normal Circumstances Qowld have been the ones to kind of bring everyone together in the middle and say hey you know america is not bad lets work cooperatively with them and people naturally prowestern proamerican but guess what, they were still nursing the grievance of 1953. You know the u. S. Given them this taken their beloved hero and overthrown him so they have their own reason for hating or being dissolution with u. S. And believing in democracy but got it we played by your ruling and we have petition and political parties and newspapers and where do they get . World greatest democracy overthrew our, you know, our prime minister. All three very different reasons were angry with the shaw and his increasingly oppressive regime but also with the u. S. Which they perceive as giving backing to the shog. You can see looking back i wouldnt and none of this would have ended well. Absolutely. Whats interesting is that during this period of from the mid60s i would say when ftion expelled from iran to late 70s, we cant not talk about repression and as you had social freedoms explode in iran. For minorities for women for generally for people who have in the big cities social freedoms exploded, and looking to the west iranians immediately look to america they wanted to come here to go to school i remember in the early 70s when i first went to college suddenly there was like influx of iranian like one other iranian in entire school and suddenly like 2,000. [laughter] and so people wanted to come leer to get educated. Or to london but mostly more to america. And but while they were getting educated here they were also being watched by one for example because i remember this very well people would iranian would recognize that im iranian come up to me and say come to us confederate meeting like father warn me to stay away from those people because infill traitd them youll be on a ligs and a problem for you and since i had very little political ambition at the time i was like okay fine i dont need to be involved in politic. But there was this resentment for the repression also for the fact that pirm people saying this to me at the time but arent you upset it takes orders from american ambassador i didnt know they know that he actually took orders but he certainly publicly at least met with the american ambassador more than he would meet with anybody else. Any other foreigner in lets say on a regular basis and there was very much a compression that shaw was doing America Bidding and that for who would suddenly been exposed to left educated at social freedoms wanted more political freedom was anafama, obviously, that can go through what brought about the actual revolution but certainly middle class was definitely dissolution by time with at least american politics in the american political system and its foreign policy towards iran by the time the time the revolution i should also remember i remember iranian students very much being involved not involved but following the civil Rights Movement in the United States. Being procivil rights, protesters, following the Vietnam War. One guy told me once after the revolution he said when he was a student go before the revolution, and was froesing the shaw outside the white house, and policeman were beating irann protesters and a black policeman d. C. Policeman started hitting him with baton he called out brother why are you hitting me and guy said im not youre a brother. And first time i realized maybe americans dont understand us. [laughter] maybe were not quite as well understood as we thought we were on the same side of the oppressed. And so thats interesting but what are your thoughtings on that on the repression on the way that this middle Class Kind of like stood by as a revolution happened partsly because i think, they resented Way Shaw had governed. Absolutely. As i look into that story iranian unique to iranian but two thing iranian do is sort of World View that, you know,ering somehow people are thinking about them more than they actually are. And i think theres that. You see this idea that youre right. The vietnam and antiwar movement during vietnam very much influence iranian left is did whole global left. And we see that for example when the when the crisis took place in 1979 is that famous moment right weve read about and when the students stormed the embassy. They were carrying these signs saying we want to sit in. We want to have a sitin. You know, which, you know, remember this is 1979 that word now is really absorb itself into our vocabulary and at the time it was a trendy new thing, in kind of protest movements in the u. S. Having a sitin. Right, and they were adopting that language you know because they thought they would watched kent state on television and they genuinely believed that by emulating kind of antiVietnam War protesters that americans qowb sympathetic to them and, in fact, you know you read some of their memoir theyre really fascinating when they started, you know, having press conferences of the u. S. Embassy and, you know, parading the hostages they genuinely thought that american public was so angry with its you know its government with its war, you know, the Vietnam War and everything that they would just, you know, they believed that the u. S. Was full of young ideal people beaten and it was happening in the u. S. All of the time you know or chicago 1968 and therefore american people who were just weird Problem Today but they believe that u. S. That american people were just repressed by their regime an waiting to rise up against their Evil And Way sometimes american politicians think iranians are after, and somehow they would immediately identify, and once they took over the embassy and started saying we demand return of the shaw all of this kind of stuff that americans rally to their side, of course, it is insane when you look back at the respect the exact opposite happened you take dozens of americans hostage like that and you thats not what youre going to get american public rallying to your side but a complete opposite. But i think that that is a lot. There was a naivete to gain support from kind of People Today would be like Bernie Sanders supporters thats who they were thinking was going to be right on youre getting cia youre giving to the man as it were. Going back to idea that iranians had middle class inside iran had this idea of supported civil rights in the idea of minority americans being oppressed by their regime. As we know also as can tell us very shortly after the Hostage Crisis all black employees of the Embassy And Military were released they did not spend, you know, one and a half years in the 400 days in the embassy under prison conditions. But anyway, we are getting very close to the time when i should be taking some questions im seeing Questions Roll in so im going to start by saying the first question is what were you expecting to discover when you started this book . And how did that change . How did your Opinion Change . Yeah. I believe when i say this but i didnt go into this expecting anything in particular other than to sort of understand the deep history of u. S. Iran relation better than i did, and i the question is whats surprise you most. We did talk about some of the surprises that you had. Going back to 1722 but is there one they think that stands out iran, u. S. , relations over the last 300 years . I think overall big surprise was to discover just how warm and affectionate this relationship was and for how long it was that way. You know when you look at the 200 or 300 if youre looking at deeper preconceive Notions History it have this 300 year history, yeah last 40 years start to feel like a blip it doesnt characterize what the relationship has been like for overwhelming majority of the history. There was this great mutual Admiration Fascination even a mutual date back to 18th and iran case 19th century. You know, and i think that overall that was the big surprise and just how a positively these people look at one another. You know, you look at the new england primmer was this book that generations of American School children learn how to read using this. Right it was abc alphabet from around 1680s up until the 1920s over 200 years. This was the main way you learn your abc ease it was rhymes illustrated the bible things leak that letter a adams we sin all that kind of stuff. You know, next Letter B it was, you know, this book by i dont know forget but you have to read B Word for the bible and get to Letter X and it is not a xylophone the only word that starts with x but it was a xeries did die and learned by learning the Word Diseerk rolled off tongue of school children for industries that kind of that deep, deep Awareness And Interest of a certain kind of idea about the persians it is just disappeared at a certain point but it was there right up until the 1950s i would argue. Thats fascinating i think one thing we should say and you have been to iran and conducting research for this book, and all of the journalist american journalist western journalist iranian Journalist Anybody that you ask to this day if you ask iranian on streets of tehran or any iranian citizen what do you think of the american people, not the american regime, youre be overwhelmingly positive that i found in my own research for books and traveling. To be and in conversations with fellow journalist and authors, to be one of the things that actually amazes most americans do end up being tiebl Visit Iran like all of these tours that go on, you know people sign up for tours to iran say wow the iranian people are so friendly. And i mean it is interesting that that is something that is that revolution can change. Even among most hardline people you have president saying he loves american people. [laughter] you know and for most americans it was like kind of the possibility the worst representative of persian hospitality. But so anyway, i think it is a good point to bring up that that i dont think is changed unfortunately i think on american side theres this idea that iranian people are represented by, you know, the people who arent very subtle in the way they try to say that they dont like the american government or american foreign policy by for example burning american flags. Stomping on american flag, saying death to america saying things like that like they must hate us all and hate thats an unfortunate thing. Going to go to couple of more questions because we have we cannily out of time and we can talk for hours about your book i have one question that says theres a lot of corruption in your true was that something that always existed no matter who was in charge . And can you corruption is something that comes up, you know, all of the time with third world or developing countries so an interesting question. Very much so and one of the things thattening it is something thats always with us and it is corruption to relative concept and you know, yes. Theres corruption in iran today. There was under previous regime as well and worst in recent years and this is a very loaded question. [laughter] you know because i think the toons this depends on how you feel about Islam Pick Republic and critics like to really focus on corruption worse in recent ys and a thing to critique. I do think theres another point of view that does say that when you absolutely struggle in the economy the way that the United States has in recent years with kinds of really extreme sanctions, you know, i dont so say that justifies or explains somehow necessarily leads but it tends to make thengs worse and natural people need to find ways around sanction thats when sort of shady operators start to come in you know, but its certainly an issue. You know its been an issue and yeah i think not the moment im qualified to speak on so ill Keep Answer short on that. Thats a good answer i think corruption is somehow related to the pressure which isnt entirely u. S. s fault it is also rank has done things that havent been help of the iranians would agree in and outside in terms of the relationship. Under the Trump Administration things got particularly bad. I dont think trump himself necessarily had any idea of what he wanted from iran other than to make a deal that obama did. But moving forward from that, though. I mean, human rights is another issue that people have a huge problem with iran. And rightfully so but i get another question with this retelling of history with people how do you think it might change way american and iranians think about the possibilities for our future relationship . Especially now i think thats a valid question with a new administration that promised to change its approach to iran in terms of the issues that it has with iran. Yeah. Im hoping that people will take away from this book a certain awareness of the fact that it doesnt need to be this way. That most of the history it hasnt been this way. I maybe people accusing me of being naive idealistic thats an accusation more than happy to accept. Because i really do believe that the fundamental logic of 200, 3 lurks years hasnt really changed iranian in america can easily a see each other in a way i dont think that Tomorrow Youll Wake up tomorrow and find that u. S. And iran have become friends and allies again thats not going to happen. But i do believe that possibility is there. Obviously the politics is complex. And allies in region have a lot to say about this but i suppose better than that question is also curiosity about where we are right now with the biden administration ill address that because thats one of the first questions is where are things going . Look, its tough because, obviously, the bad news is that, you know, iran what is an election coming up in june. And you know, the u. S. Sorry iranian president is term limited to two terms two four Year Term like american president. Probably were going see more Heart Diseaseline antiamerican administration just logically, i mean, after Pullout Nobody will win an election in iran would you campaigning on platform of better relationship with the United States. Hardliners and, you know, antiamerican elements in iran have very successfully making argument you see. You see you cannot trust the United States. You know what i mean president and his reform minded foreign minister have been humiliated by this a signature foreign Achievement Jcpoe in 2015 since the u. S. Pullout become easy for a poangt to say look, you see you guys you can never trust americans. So theres a high livelihood but for the same reason this is in some ways good news and they are going to be keen to resurrect if they can Pep And Legacy on the line. They also want to take that argument away from Heart Diseaseliners when it comes to election time to say trump was aberration whatever, but team is very limited. The president ial campaign in iran is going to kick off pretty soon leak in march, april, dealing with people in Administration Work personally on jcpoa they have investment in trying to resurrect it. That i think good will on both sides i think people many cases these people work together and they know details of the new issue very well. But you know, of course, Joe Biden also had few other thoings his plate as well. Well, in the case of the nuclear negotiators in biden team they have each Others Cell Phone numbers. Which is helpful Emails Everything else i think it is we dont have a lot of time. A former Peace Corps. Volunteer in iran says that there were many volunteer organizations in iran in 60s and 70s and i do, i remember that. Did your research uncover any interesting facts about them an about their work in iran . I didnt look closely at the Peace Corps history of iran. But i have contributed essay to new volume coming up by Matt Shannon and im embarrassingly getting name of the fellow but there was an article in i think from i hope aisle not getting that. But writing an article about Peace Corps. In iran i look ford that and not an area they look closely to but a lot of people ive spoken to like john, and jim good others these are people who are Study Iran and u. S. Iran relations but started out a peaceful volunteers theres sell an active community as i understand kind of alumni u. S. Peace corps. In iran so ill leave it at that. Sure. Going back to going back to the nuclear deal and the idea of trust and again this goes back to the history of u. S. , u. S. And iran. Iranian people, i think that trust is not just on this nuclear deal that got a abandoned by Trump Administration and subsequently opposing the sanctionings and had is damage the economy damaged the economy for ordinary iranian not just for the government. It goes all the way back to 53 we trusted america to not interfere in democratic process they overthrew and our hero, we trusted that they would be on our side and human on human right issues and not training the cia and come in and train to be torture techniques all of that. We lost the trust there and we didnt trust them after the revolution because they sided with saddam and chemical weapons, and nobody ever helped iran and in that war which has been imposed on iran. So this trusting goes on and on from 1953 as you point out now it is particularly because okay now so iranian currency has been devalued. There are shortages of medicine in iran people are in the middle of coronavirus are dying. So this Trust Issue is become it is a very, very important point not that it is necessarily only on america because america also doesnt trust Iran And Iran has done things that america views as not being trust worthy. But go back to the question, questions that im going to look at one couple more before we sign off. One question cities that iranian people may have had most friendly have been mostly friendly towards u. S. But i would assume that authoritarian regime cant survive without some support. Who are the supporters of this particular 42yearold regime in iran . Did you get into that at all . Mings thats a fair question i talked to you in epilogue of the book and i know this is a Mind Field of a question right idea supports islamic republic because this is a product of what i think is frankly broken discourse about iran and the United States which is if you refn suggest that the islamic republic has any support whatsoever, people will just lose their mind. I can feel any twitter blowing up with people yelling at me afraid to open my mouth on this subject. So i want to tread carefully there are many, many iranians that are deeply dissatisfied with islamic republic many live abroad but not all many, you know, you go to iran you will hear a lot of the dissatisfaction. Especially now. Especially now. That is Bread And Butter of the variety if just, you know, livelihood and, you know, what are we doing now and what are having trouble making ends meet and sanctioning thats become worse. You know, in my experience when ive gone through iran, Taxi Cab conversations with various friends, family whatever People Anyone that will tiewk talk to you it is a range like anywhere else but you dont hear a huge this is why biggest misconception that american people have that you dont hear a huge constituency of people who want to do with the entire system have another revolution you know, who are opposed to whole idea of on the republic and bring im going get such grief for this already. But want to bring back you dont really hear that in huge numbers you dont. You hear a lot of dissatisfaction you know about the price of fish. The price of bread, you know, and you hear a range of views. And you do even hear sometimes people who are very supportive and i think that that is the constituency that we tengsd to not hear from or hear about very often in western media coverage. How do you explain that you know i think theres a mix of things, obviously, theres repressive regime theres a Police State of certain sorts not that people can go out and protest against regime and you know hundreds of thousands although they have in occasion. But it is not only explanation im sorry people will not like this answer. But if that were only explanation simply refreshing keeping regime it qongt have remained in power this long and Thats Something that is maybe difficult for many people to accept it is not something i particularly like to, you know, making me happy. But it is a reality. And it is a historian we have to understand that a little bit. You know when you have a group of people who have remained i dont have any specific affection for republic but people in power for 40 Years Gite having largest largest superpower trying to undermine them every term no real ally on world stage. You know, a lot of opposition, and you know, somehow manage to devise its not just because theyre crazy people who live in caves and wear turbine and you know, islamic republic have a kind of ideological yeah absolutely but theyre smart savvy, political operator who is also know how to give the public just enough just enough to keep themselves in power. Theres also people who benefit from the Islam Pick Republic and people know about irgc and sheer numbers of of militia domestic militia to people who benefit from it and sociallily conservative are religiously conservative, who believe in their clerks when they say, and who i have no idea if it is a Majority Or Minority but they do exist as you point out and there are people who have religiously and conservative who believe dont believe islamic republic. Iran is full of that a lot of contradiction. You will meet people in iran who you think would be die hard supporters of the deeply religious, you know, deeply conservative deeply antiamerican antiwestern in a lot of ways but then you stop talking to them they have defiled and spoil religion and no place in religion it is a special thring to me that i dont want to see it into political arena people surprise me with all kinds of ways iran has a rich and complex political very complex yeah. Than any other country even some of the supporters of the islamic republic as an islamic republic i had a conversation with a cleric he believed in islamic republic not, obviously, but he believed in it but disagreed with making religion compulsory. He said when he said they they meant the government they are or the regime they are going to make people move away from islam. By forcing them but ramming down their throats and ive heard that many times i think thats actually among certain people in iran that common refrain even as you point out among religious figures in iran. Rastled thats happened time for one more question which is really relevant to todays News Someone asked what would be a quick Confidence Building Measure can you comment on envoy. Confidence building i assume. From the u. S. Side is what this person is asking as a his historian more confident in the past and biden administration much smaller people that can do that and look sanctions are biggest things for iran. It is a desperately like yesterday sanctions release. So anything that moves in that direction. You know even if it is not repealing all of the sanctions showing good will, i think you know could go a long way heres what i would say as a historian go back to the 1850s first disagreement two countries ever had. I know it seems crazy because, obviously, it is not 1850s not like suddenly we can go back. But some way what if we channel something of that . What if we reminded ourselves that first disagreement these two countries ever had disagreement in which iran is trying to get u. S. Protection against russia and brirn and u. S. Is saying no we dont want to get involved in your affair. Today, iran is facing this kind of unexpected weird convenience between israel and some of the gulf arab states, and Saudi Arabia de facto and so on. Who is implicit intention is to isolate iran. Many ways very similar to what they were facing and if they want when they were facing russian and british pressure in 1850s they turn to u. S. As a protected. Wow what would happen if iran pulled a rabbit out of Hat Tomorrow and could actually say we have a great new Budding Friendship with the United States and wave that in the face of the news really thats the one noing one would expect from iran because islamic republic is so geared towards antiamericanism. But what if they did that and conversely pull racket out of his hat and said thing really genuinely abandoned all these ideas about regime Change And Interference in iranian affairs and respect really respected the islamic republic, and said you know were going to deal with iran as it is. As we find it rather than as we have leak it to be and were not gong to interfere because greatest rhetorical weapon that islamic republican has and Rett Vik they can accuse u. S. Of being imperialistic and arrogant in region and u. S. Makes that very easy. For iran. But what if they took away that weapon . Now im not any naive to say either will happen but what if both try to remember and channel first disagreement they have and try to absurd something of its spirit. You know, as they approach and for a historian i dont think thats a very long time so if i feel like, you know, thats maybe my advice as a historian. I know but thats great john i think learning from history is always good or at least looking back at history and trying to see what worked and what didnt work. Because it is all going to be good. I think we have to end i consider question and i have to say easily found on Instagram And Twitter if you want to followup and on our questions and so forth because we know we run out of time. I apologize for not getting to more questions it seems like we ran out of time very we cannily. As usual, i have to thank you john for this fascinating conversation and actually for a wonderful book that i really, really truly enjoyed reading. I hate to use cliche but it is a Page Turner if you have interest in this history and told a wonderful story telling way you dont have to be an academic to read this kids can read it. I also want to thank the center for book history, and marsha, as well and brooklyn library. And with that, go buy this book. Thank you again. Thank you very much. I appreciate the conversation thank you again to everyone for coming. Yes thank you all for joining. Heres a look at some books being published this week. Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren of massachusetts combinings personal stories with the call to political action. In persist, republicans Senator Josh Hawley of missouri argues that big Tech Company are the the greatest threat to american privacy in tyranny of beg tech and in on juneteenth Pulitzer Prize winning Historian Annette recalls announcement of the slavery in texas on june 19th, 1865. Also published this week best Selling Author Mirk El Luis explores medical experts and Trump Administration over covid19 pandemic in the premonition. In nine nasty Words Linguist questions what gives pleaxtive words so much power. And why people love to use them. Legal scholar recounts biggest questions and concerns that american citizens had regarding constitution after it was ratified in words that made us. And wrapping our look at some of the books being published next week, Neil Ferguson argues were getting worse at responding to disasters in doom. Find these it title this is coming week where books are sold and watch for many of the authors in the near future on booktv on cspan2. On our weekly program afterwards nacialgly nationally discuss his life and career. Finally after i wrote my biography on martin luther, which came out i guess four years ago, and i wrote a book on american, american founding and finally, finally i got to write this book, and i did nots intend it people talk about this in writing process is becomes something you didnt anticipate. It became a literary retelling of my life with a level of detail i had not anticipated. But i just found myself telling these stories that ive been telling verbally most of my life. And you know some of them you tell because theyre so funny and you have to tell people like i have to tell you youre not going to believe this and humor of growing up with a greek immigrant Father And Misunderstanding and Stuff And Book became something different than i had intended, and i just i have to be honest and say that i almost didnt know what i had. I thought gosh i hope this makes sense. Ive told this story and the feedback has been fantastic. So im not as, you know, worried as i was. But initially i just thought im not sure what i have here i marine it to be a great read a literary memoir with, you know, yale university, working class European Grngt all of these different Pieces Kind of pieces but i honestly didnt know if it would ever congeal thats an ugly word but you know what i mean. To watch program visit our website booktv. Org click on afterwards tab near top of the page to find this all previous episodes. Booktv is television for serious readers, all weekend, every weekend, join us again next saturday 8 a. M. Eastern for the best in nonfiction books. Democracy. Host Darrell West is the coauthor of this