I want to thank everyone for signing on tonight and sending an evening with us. Your presence here supports us, your local, independent Employee Owned bookstore and we are so grateful. The sun is out but we are mostly still stuck inside in these very strange times and were doing our best here at cornerstones book to adapt in ways while still serving you. Our website is open for orders and this week we opened up for Curbside Pickup as well as a number of other shipping options so we are ready to get to the books you need whenever way is best for you. Every other evening were sending out a quarantine newsletter that you should check out. We are offering a number of surprise bundles of books that are hand packed or handpicked by our booksellers. Weve got bundles for kids that you can either pick up for your own family or choose to donate 12 local students along with their free lunches. We have bundles for new graduates, mystery lovers and even more we have a plushy stuffed animal bundle so were doing lots of fun stuff and putting on a really cool Virtual Events like this one. Our next one is on saturday junr very own coowner for the paperback release of her graphic novel for kids. It is great for the whole family and we will include a little comic activity so we hope you will bring a pen and paper and calm and join our celebration. Couple housekeeping notes before we get started on tonights with Peniel Joseph and brandon curie. This event is recorded and not every computer love streaming live video so if you run into that issue you can come back and watch through the recorded one which might be friendlier to your system or share the video with a friend who cannot make it tonight. Weve got this lovely chat window open on the bottom right of your screen or it says Say Something nice and please do. Some of you have found it and you could maybe hit there and say hi or where you are walking from and just keep your comments respectful and we will be moderating that and right next to that little checkbox at the bottom of your screen youll see the word ask a question and you can type in the chat any questions for peniel and brandon and we will have time at the end to answer those for you. If ive done this correctly im not a tech person, more of a book person but this is streaming to facebook. Hello, facebook. If youre watching there we cant see your questions here so if you have one, and down in the link is right there in the video description. There is also this wonderful big green button sort of thing in the middle of this green pointing at it that says buy this sword and shield in that link will bring you right to our website where you can purchase your copy or copies of tonights featured books and we will ship it to your door where you can come pick up from us. Please do check that out. Finally while there is no obligation right by the checkbox in the bottom of your screen you will see the word donate and if you would like to contribute to our virtual tip door we will invest your donation back into offering more virtual programming like this one in our payroll as were committed to pain are. Throughout the duration of covid closure. Thank you so much. If you have contributed. Just say no or totally happy to have you here with no contribution aside from your presence and you are all a part of the readily Supportive Community that is what is sustaining us right now. Thank you for that. That is the boring part and now we will get to the good stuff. Im delighted to turn to our event tonight with Peniel Joseph and Brandon Curry for the sword and the shield. They wrote the sword and the shield is a landmark and it is what happens when one of americas greatest historians of african america shines the same light on two of africanamericans greatest historical figures. He deploys his supreme talents as a biography and moving historian to interweave the world shattering life of mulch and lutheran king junior and malcolm x. Peniel joseph is the Barbara Jordan chair in ethics and political values at the lbj school of Public Affairs and a professor of history at the university of texas and austin for hes written several previous books on africanamerican history including [inaudible] and he lives in austin, texas. Hes doing tonight by brandon and terry the assistant professor of African American studies in social studies at Harvard University pretty he is written for npr, huffington post, baltimore sun, the point, the nation, time and tv news and more. The broader academic interests include black intellectual and political thought 20th century continental philosophy, the philosophy of race and racism, questions of poverty and crime and hiphop and black use culture. Peniel and brandon thank you for joining us virtually and i will hand this screen over to you guys. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. All right. It is an honor and a privilege as always to be here with my dear brother and somebody i consider to be an enormous inspiration intellectually and personally, doctor peniel jose joseph. For those of you who do not know Peniel Joseph is arguably the founder of the fields of lack power studies and has done such pathbreaking work and black radicalism and overtime he has not become and i think this book really cements it one of the great historians of postwar United States and this was a powerful book, a book of fire that all of us will have to pass through, not just to understand black political life and american life, international questions of politics in the late 20th century but also our own moments. I think one of the things that always excited me about the thinker and a scholar is that your history is done with an eye toward the present and the selfconscious way. And so, am grateful to be here and i was hoping that maybe we could spark with a broad question which is about the title. The sword and the shield is such a striking metaphor, why you describe malcolm x, Martin Luther king and these iconic 20th century figures in that way the sword and the shield . Yeah, great question brandon. I want to give you a shout out and thank you for doing this. You are my brother as well but your thought has been so inspirational for me with questions of citizenship and questions of race, democracy and you are one of the big thinkers about this entire field so im definitely delighted that you are here to discuss this. The sword and the shield and i will start by giving everyone a shout out. My favorite books are in the world i lived in cambridge, summersville for almost ten years and Ellen Jarrett and everyone there has been so kind to me over the years and its a great and it was Publishers Weekly independent bookstore of the year in 2020 so its a great bookstore and im happy to be here. The title is really a metaphor that looks at we usually think about malcolm x as a political store we think about Martin Luther king jr. As the shield for both the black community in the nation but what i argue in the the sword and the shield is that we have to reframe how we think about malcolm x and Martin Luther king junior. When we re frame them we understand the postwar period of civil rights, black power and anticolonialism and antiwar much, much better that we ought to understand the present much better because i think your event that malcolm is both a political sword and a political shield and king we still think of as the great big nonviolent teddy bear is a revolutionary. He uses nonviolence as a political sword and shield and i would argue he influences along the way of malcolm x in that thinking. When we raise their lives together which i try to do in this book we come up with really fascinating understanding and a new understanding of democracy and the black radical tradition and the way we live now because obviously in 2020 we are seeing the continuing impact where we were kindly calling Racial Disparity but really were talking about whites primacy, antiblack racism and when we read the sword and the shield what i found fascinating was how deep was malcolm and marco were invested in slavery and the political economy and they did not use words like racial capitalism but they were talking about that and how they thought about jim crow, segregation, poverty and this idea of citizenship. Youve written so well on the idea of citizenship including anthropology about tommy shelby so the sword and the shield is about reframing how we think and making the argument that both sword and shield. Especially at such a powerful and resonant image in one of the things you do in the book which is striking that nobody has done it with this degree of elaboration or sophistication is to show how they mutually influence each other that in all of these, you know, striking intellectual ways, when we talk for the capitalism and you brought up a piece of king writing that i always try to focus on in my piece but almost never see anyone mention when he talks about the homestead act. Its a crucial part of the building of White Supremacy that you partial out all this land to white settlers and of course that gets bought out by white corporations and you basically are committing to acts of, you know, racial quotation at the same time and excluding africanamericans from benefiting from the distribution of the land and committing a genocidal act against native indigenous people. Thats not the Martin Luther king that is stenciled on the statue at the mall. No, not at all. King is a man on fire between 65 and 68 and i think he or we owe a lot of that to malcolm. Malcolm will be influenced by king as well. We think about one of the things i talk about is malcolm x and the radical black dignity and Martin Luther king jr. And his idea of radical black citizenship and how they come to see and need both. When you think about the radical black dignity malcolm is different from doctor king in which way . I talk about malcolm x and black americas prosecuting attorney who becomes the states and i would argue that doctor king helps them become not but initially when malcolm was doing prosecuting White America the nationstate for a series of crimes against black people right and he said those crimes go back to 1619 in jamestown. Before the New York Times project malcolm had his own 1619 project and malcolm speeches in harlem was talking about 400 years of racial oppression which we really hit in 2019 but he was saying it was 400 years there so when we think about this idea of radical black dignity malcolm recognized black humanity and didnt want to debate white people about black humanity. King was doing some thing else and what malcolm means by dignity is both antiracism, anticolonialism but the big word from malcolms spell determination. Black people will have the right to solve their own problems and identified their own problems and when malcolm argues that what malcolms big policy achievement like what did he do, king of the Civil Rights Act so what did malcolm x do . My reply is this he turned [inaudible] into black people. He turned negroes into black and african people. Im not even going to say African American because that hybrid excludes people. Black American People if youre black youre part of the you could be biracial, multiracial, youre at in a fight is black and you know the community you are an end but that is what malcolm did for us. Anything about doctor king, doctor kings notion of citizenship will be different. King is the defense attorney. Hes a sending white people, black people to white people. We think about doctor king king is talking about citizenship that is very robust, not just voting rights, not just end of racial segregation but citizenship for him means guaranteed living wage and decent housing and talked about food justice, environment of justice and citizenship for king means racial integration and i think malcolm got that aspect just wrong. For king it wasnt about he wanted to hang out with white folks but king understood that racial integration meant and integration of resources and our redistribution of resources and justice. We think about things like george floyd and we think about ahmad aubrey or sandra bland and those things were not of happened in the racially integrated society because you cant pick and choose in the very specific neighborhood in the very specific geography who you will racially terrorize. They are demarcated as ghetto and we can occupy those so malcolm knew that but king over absolutely began to understand. So let me focus in on this point about radical black dignity. You know, its a striking part of the book and it is something that, you know, in our work on king i think its a really underappreciated part of the African American philosophical tradition in political thought tradition that to insist on dignity and insist on the value and the equal standing and moral work of every individual even when they, wrapped in with a lot of [inaudible] they commit you to radical political projects and one of them is a radical transportation of how we would have policing and so there is a striking scene in your book where we talk about the johnson in 1957 which explodes malcolm into the public is seen when black consciousness and was hoping you could talk a bit about that moment and what malcolms legacy teaches us for how to think about today when we just lived through a week especially horrifying and traumatizing acts of Police Brutality and interracial terrorism among what are supposed to be citizens and malcolm would say that would mean youre not a citizen if people can treat you that way. Absolutely, 1957 incident in harlem where in new york city he will be brutalized and his skull was fractured and member of the nation of islam and malcolm really carries a bully pulpit and very famously or we about spike lee and malcolm x film lee had the traumatization that there were two incidences, at harlem hospital where malcolm and hundreds of members of the nation of islam were backed by a crowd of over a thousand people demanding medical care for johnson and at one Point Malcolm demands that medical care and is telling the Law Enforcement that unless he gets his medical care he cant say or will happen in terms of the crowd and johnson gets the medical care and very famously one member of Law Enforcement says thats too much power for one man to have sony think about policing malcolm x always understood if he was incarcerated for 77 months in massachusetts and hes in charlestown and in concord and was in northland and so policing is a big part of malcolm x really has ministry and criminal Justice Reform so what he is trying to do is this idea of dignity and not just muslims who happen to be black or black folks in new york city being treated with dignity so somebody who is part of the Police Community Relations Committee for a time and he tries to push Police Reform to get a new police chief. King will try by 54 as well but i think the interface between africanamericans or black people and the criminal Justice System is a real big part of malcolm x legacy in ways that we dont think about. And, you know, one of the things that comes in the wake of the george floyd case in minneapolis this week there is a lot of commentators who may be out of a sense of despair or maybe out of a sense of different kinds of political commitments say in this country in this country just doesnt deserve any longer the allegiance of africanamericans. The idea of a reformist politics is in no sense justifiable. We can no longer core our energies and affect into those kind of projects. And for me, malcolm is a brilliant exciting proponent of that kind of rhetoric and particularly take pain that people following doctor king want to turn that around and say in these moments the darkest moments and despairing moments we still want to love our enemy so through a christian love ethic and through a multi phase, even secular love ethic and politics we can redeem the polity and build a new kind of democracy so was hoping you might say a bit about that point of debate and ascension in this idea of loving ones enemy as a path to transformation and White Malcolm was so afraid of that and whether he was right or not. I think malcolm was pushing back on one aspect of the community. When we look at king and that what is great about writing the dual biography, looking at king and his fullness is talking about loving your enemy and also shared sacrifice and also saying white identity, White Privilege has to go and we have to have a radical tradition of wealth and justice and love and then that part of the message a lot of the time malcolm is mourned until 1964 where even the ballot or the bullet is looking at radical black dignity and when we think about doctor king he definitely talked about shared loving ones enemy but the larger context for doctor king was really this idea of using nonviolent civil disobedience to coerce the United States into citizenship, full citizenship for africanamericans, black people and for all people, right . I think that by 64 they start to understand their language and even as early as 63 with birmingham and i think what malcolm at times ignored was the rhetoric that made john f. Kennedy, president kennedy, president Lyndon Johnson very uncomfortable. Parts of those that we are talking about radical structural transformation and not necessarily so he would amplify those parts much more after malcolms assassination but we think about the idea of where we are at in the context of george floyd, ahmad aubrey, sandra bland, all these Different Police instances, one thing you see from malcolm and marvin is that they realize the criminal Justice System, even in the context of the 1950s, 1960s was a gateway to panoramic injustices and so, we need a radical transformation of not just criminal justice in the United States but the way in which criminal Justice System interfaces with all aspects of Democratic Institutions and that goes from public spaces where people are being surveilled in terms of housing, that goes from all the schools that are pipelines to corrections for juveniles and adults. It is really about this because he was talking about loving your enemies. This was in 67 and 68 and he was saying that the biggest catastrophe happen in the United States. Peniel and theres a way of framing it. I do think that the part of the love advocate is Holding People accountable. The sense of goodwill for unit like the good of the other person, is what putting them to make that transformation which involves coercion. And really difficult political context and struggle. So when you are saying before reminded me of one part of the book that i really loved. I never heard it quite this way. You tell the story about he wins the nobel prize and then he comes home. In one of the big stops was his big celebration in new york. So now hes with malcolm x. The crown prince of harlem in their celebrating doctor king. In harlem. Malcolm gives this speech we start actually complementing king one of the rare times that he does that. And he compliments him on celebration of the Scandinavian Society commitment to social democracy. Assume that what you call it social the democracy. There debate about that. So just curious, you been talking a lot about king, and the transformation. In this notion of leadership that is working with. How does that fit in these conversations about the economy. At this moment. How do you see them converging or other interesting tensions here. With how they are thinking about the problem of politically economy in the late 20th century. Suet thank you so a great question and i think the king with the citizenship and also malcolms notion of radical dignity actually confers in keyways Political Economic question. Without Malcolm Cummings very global notion of this human rights. He connects with this idea black citizenship in the United States. The citizen japan africa, the middle east and the larger areas. So when malcolm at oxford university. He said that he wanted to go on with all people the matter what color they are teaching the miserable conditions. Thats when he said and he got a standing ovation. Up early when he talks about the speech, the impoverishment of the africanamericans but also the murder of the civil rights workers in 1964. And how that murder really defies the Civil Rights Act. People said that act will be transformative and protect black lives for you to suffer doctor king, think the idea of the political economy of citizenship becomes very influenced by the social democracies that he does this in 1964. Started making arguments for the expansion of citizenship guaranteeing income levels that go beyond the new deal and certainly the kobe of the Great Society and thats what people talk about the word certainly the work and is a breaking point. With president johnson the one of the big things is this idea of impoverishment and how the idea of the political economy of capitalism that we have to have a second level. In a certain level of homelessness in a certain level of misery. In king really pushes back against that spring these policies for him as the poor peoples campaign. We have to think about how 2020, is the first occupied. Right. We occupied wall street. But the poor peoples campaign, they occupied the nations capital. With starting from Martin Luther king or whatever. King is crying when he sees those young black people in the children without shoes. And kids with no blankets. That was in mississippi. One of the poorest areas. No indoor plumbing. It is in tears. And he is crying in new york. And hes saying the last few weeks of his life that he just cannot believe help poor people are in mississippi. In the young and the abernathy prayed like he is really moved by this. Anything to Lyndon Johnson and u. S. Commerce. This is all got to end freighted numbering a knife or a gun to the fight. Saying hes going to come. Thats why he was there helping 1100 sanitation workers who were in strike because he is saying that the biggest cleavage was connecting race to class into war. Forming intersectional in that way. And certainly other folks are going to be adding gender and sexuality other things. The king has his own version of intersectional it. I think absolutely the political economy of the citizen ship really matters now more than ever. In the late talk that we had about medicare for all and ending debt and housing and ending homelessness for all. This is absolutely convergence with kings notion of radical citizenship. Peniel its always so compelling me about and why you keep returning to him as a thinker is that he is somebody who is a rare figure in a mark in history that achieved a level of prominent influence that he did. But also arguing that Something Like citizenship should take precedence. Over the dictates of the market. The idea that the imperatives for capital should determine how we make decisions over whether to allocate healthcare to people homes to people and things like that. We may have seen it, my daughter just ran in. [laughter]. Were relying on lloyd and sometimes things happen. Peniel kings idea citizenship is absolutely nothing to connected to the black lives movement freighted the policy agenda. But also impression. And that these guarantees of citizenship stop at the border of the United States. So we think about folks are in the middle east and folks who are in africa. We think about folks who are in latin america and south america. The caribbean and haiti. It is pushing to guarantee Citizenship Rights the global and starting with the domestics. Denise thinking really big from that perspective from the really hard now immigrant lives freighted immigrants have or should have a level of safety and security that the policy guarantees and especially where they felt implicated whether we think about wars for the politil economy of satellite nations globally. Brandon so that brings me to know the future malcolm x and Martin Luther king change that has been permanently overlooked. And in your book brought it front and center, it was internationally right. So i wanted to hear you Say Something about this element of how i see them converging. If you can bear with me. So they both see their own moment as kind of a hinge for the american empire. Malcolm seems very concerned about the way in which we are intervening in other countries to disrupt democratically elected leaders and violate peoples right of selfdetermination. Talked earlier about this. Such a important topic and he is concerned about the way that might boomerang, his famous remark about jon f. Kennedy are in part about this, people who actually like is a racist quote about kennedy or something. It is part of the whole view of foreign policy. And kings way among other things, he is worried for us to deal with the kinds of dislocation that the robotics revolution in to the economy. But to deal with the severe dislocation and transformation of the economy that we were undergoing and la 1950s. We needed a massive investment in welfare states. I cannot do that and be with his nation. To do that would of course be a disaster. And it seems like about of their views have proven prophetic. And as you might think that International Relations the people study american empire, that these great thinkers of the global order. Im just curious, to hear you say a little bit more about that. Now you want people to think about these figures heavy rock intervention. In that space. Peniel i think brandon, these are more figures for you think alongside of this global and alongside gandhi and churchill and whoever you want to talk about with this globally. In malcolm, understanding of the World Affairs really starts in the prisons freighted really starts with his father as a general voice. In omaha, nebraska and michigan. His mother, is a guardian, and gives a worldview of africanism. But in prison, he starts to read and study intensely, really the whole time he is in prison to the end of his life. So he finds out about the 1935 asian conference. In indonesia and he really is on fire with his idea of radical selfdetermination. Because of the middle east the first time in 1959 and spent several weeks there. Does not take it then but he meets up with all kinds of diplomats including Vice President in egypt. In the