We will begin this weekend with Alice Baumgartner she recalls lives of slaves escape the south from mexico. Would like to welcome everyone to this webinar. We are tremendously gratified by your interest. In joining us we have hundreds of you out there today which is very, very exciting. We are here to engage in a conversation with my usc friend and colleague Alice Baumgartner and distinguished american historian from texas a m university. This is all being made possible by the publication of alices book, south to freedom, runaway slaves to the civil war. An exciting project of the intersection of a number of fields. The history of mexico, the sectional crisis of civil war, the history of slavery. It is a remarkable accomplishment, i want to congratulate alice on the publication of the book. And i want to think the professor for joining us as well. Our plan is to have professor baumgartner offers some opening remarks and imagery on the making of this work through talented scholarship. And what shes done with that brief presentation the professor and i will engage in some further questions about the contributions of this magnificent book. I would invite you all to pose questions in the q a feature of the zoom platform. We will not get to all of them. We aim to finish just before the hour is up. Well do our best to draw some of your questions out into our conversation both during the hour and in the last ten to 15 minutes as we get ready to clos close. So with that again i want to thank you all for being with this. I did think my colleagues who are indispensable to events like this. And i think what i will do is turn things over to professor to take us through some of the architecture of scholarly and Research Architecture of this book. To alice over to you. Guest thank you so much of bill and everyone else at icw for putting this event together. Think he was well to the professor who is just a giant in the field and has been an inspiration to me since First Reading one of his books in graduate school. And finally thank you to all of you. I am just blown away by having over 200 people here from all across the United States. Im so thrilled to get to talk to you all about this book. I did not expect to write a book about runaway slaves to mexico when i started researching the summer of 2012. I was in mexico working on a completely different topic. But i came across this indictment against a louisiana slaveholder for having tried to kidnap a fugitive slave in northeastern mexico. In this document really surprised me. Because i anointed their fugitive slaves escaping to mexico. So it would not have expected mexicos legal system to be indicting those trade kidnap them. That indictment left three central questions that came to guide my research. The first is why worse enslaved people escaping to mexico in the first place . Second, what kind of lives could runaways forage for themselves there . And certainly what did me for slavery in the United States to have a refuge like in mexico on its southern border . To answer these questions i went to 28 different archives in three different countries. Some of those local archives was a leaf in frequent revisited as written up in the local newspaper for going to them. I started to find answers to questions i had asked. I realize enslaved people were not escaping to mexico out of ignorance or desperation. Between 18241827 where than half of mexicos 19 states that either abolish slavery outright, or pass gradual emancipation laws. In much of the same with the northern states are dead in the United States. But it wasnt just the states that were passing antislavery laws. In 1837 Mexicos Congress abolish slavery throughout the republic. And if you are thinking, if i was actually 1829 im happy to talk in the q a at what i think 1837 is the correct date. Even more astonishing was the competition of 1857 which not only enshrined abolition in mexicos constitution but made one further promise. It promised that all enslaved people would be free from the moment they set foot on the mexican soil. A promise on is a freedom principal. This is a really radical promised to be making per the northern states in the United States did not make such a promise because of course were constrained by the fugitive slave laws of the s constitutio constitution. Even canada which could abolish slavery long wrestling British Empire 1833 had explicitly promised to free all enslaved people from the moment they set foot on mexican soil in the same way or on the canadian soil the family mexico did. But for the historians of the room, you are particularly aware that the laws on the page did not always reflect reality. So what kind of lives were enslaved people actually able to forge mexico . For my redress i found most fugitive slaves followed one of two paths. The first option was to join mexicos military colonies. The strings along mexicos Northern Frontier. And most fugitive slaves joined one Military Colony in particular. A Military Colony in the Northeastern State where seminole indians and their black allies started to settle starting in 1850. As you can see from this contemporary photograph, that the descendents of the seminole, the black seminole and those fugitive slaves joined them still are in the Northeastern State of mexico today. The second option was to join x echoes labor force. African americans who went to mexico were able to find a number of different occupations as we can see from this really amazing senses from 1841 which listed all foreignborn people of african descent in the states. For those who can read spanish you can see the types of occupation they were listed as having. With coachman day laborers merchants, laborers, all sorts of types of occupations. I was the both of these options came at a risk. For the enslaved people who join mexicos military colonies, the call for their freedom was their participation and mexicos campaign to protect the border and in the process to fight against native people who rating the Northern Frontier at that time. And as far as runaways entering this cash poor economy work coercive labor systems like indentured servitude were not uncommon. But for most runaways the greatest threat to their freedom was less from their employers in mexico from the commanders of this military colonies than it was from their former masters in the United States. American stakeholders often tried to kidnap their fugitive slaves from mexico. But they sell resistance from mexican officials and citizens. Sometimes that was of a legal nature. This is a photo from the indictment i mentioned earlier against a louisiana slaveholder named William Cheney who tried to kidnap a fugitive slave had found work as a maid in the household. They also faced violent resistance as was the case in 1852 of townspeople who shot and killed a kidnapper from the United States as he was trying to make off with a runaway slave. And we know about this particular instance because the four townspeople actually brought to a judge. He certified the man was in fact dead for not having responded to other servitude cadaverous signs. If in fact people were able to find a measure of freedom however incomplete in mexico, what affected that have on the United States . Obviously for stakeholders in texas and louisiana were slavery was booming during this time, next sicko based agriculture. You can see in this map showing the distribution of the state population of the Southern States. Just how concentrated the enslaved population was in eastern texas and along the mississippi valley. Places where mexico just a couple hundred miles away. In addition to causing great concern for slaveholders in texas and louisiana, the promise of freedom in mexico also posed a threat to slavery at the very heart of the union. In 1846 the United States provoked a war with mexico that two years later delivered what is now the american southwest to the United States. This mexican session included california, nevada and new mexico parts of utah and colorado. In most historians except this acquisition caused controversy that ultimately lead to the civil war. But historians have been debating for a long time about why exactly the mexican conquest territory was so controversial. But it actually is not that complicated when you take into account the fact that mexico had abolished slavery in 1837. Northern congressmen of both political parties, and even some congressman from slaveholding states like thomas hart of missouri, refused to reestablish slavery where it had been abolished, as it had been those former mexican territories. Southern politicians on the other hand are quick to recognize that if that territory became free states, but the balance of power between the north and south would be tilted in favor of the north, southern politicians were desperate to avoid such a fate. And their efforts to avoid that fate led to the overturning of the missouri compromise, the outbreak of violence in kansas, and establishment of the new Political Party the Republican Party of 1860 led the Southern States to succeed and the civil war to break out. Thanks so much for listening to this brief overview of the book. Im so excited to talk about it more without an bill. Thank you alice. That is a wonderful overview of the book. Its intersecting arguments. And contributions. Professor before he turns you let me remind the audience you are welcome and encouraged to pose questions in the q and a. I will get as many of those as we can be for the hour is up. Professors like to start us off with some response to the book and its arguments . Yes for saul connected alice purdy like to commend you in writing such a great book, excellent book about a subject we as historians know very little about. You already explained way decided to write this subject. So if you were talking with this eddie book events, can you just share your major conclusions of this study are both a novice and a professional historian. Guest that is a great question. The first conclusion is that we really need to be paying attention to runaway slaves. Not just to the north in canada but also to mexico. And the reason for that is that they were escaping. In fewer numbers and into the northern states of canada but they were escaping in that escape provoked a lot of concern among slaveholders in texas and louisiana. So much so that the Texas State Legislature passed a law that was actually compensating slave catcher for kidnapping fugitive slaves to mexico. So much so that southern politicians were trying to get mexico to agree to an extradition treaty that would include fugitive slaves probably failed when mexico refused to such an extradition treaty throughout the 1850s. Is this an important component of the story of escaped slaves that we are only beginning to really understand. The second conclusion is about mexico. We often, when we are thinking about antislavery the history of global antislavery we often think of england, the United States, the northern states that we have started to really consider haiti. My point in this book is that mexico should be part of that conversation because it was part of that conversation. This global debate about slavery and freedom. Mexico did not abolish slavery just because there werent any slaves there. It was a concerted political decision informed by the fact that its like people were escaping to mexico and providing useful skills and military service. And diplomatic ammunition. So that is another point. And the third and related point we need to take into account the abolition of slavery in mexico in order to understand the sectional controversy that broke out after the mexicanamerican war. Back okay you assert that mexico had a form of what you call moral power by both rejecting slavery and assisting fugitive slaves. I wonder is there a lesson to be learned here . Guest i think so. Moral power can be an incredibly useful force. Particularly for a country like mexico that did not have as much power. Theres a huge power imbalance between mexico and the United States during this time. Mexico wielded that moral power very effectively in the same way that england did too. To say you people of the United States think that you are just not the whole the mantle of liberty. But you have slavery and we dont. That struck a nerve with southerners. We have some people in the United States the system chanting and eight letter to henry clay that im paraphrasing here, how can we suffer slavery to continue if a semi barbarous nation like mexico is ended at . So it really did strike a nerve. I think there is a lesson that there are many different types of power this economic, this physical, there is moral power , although we cannot measure gdp or a number of ammunition its still a very powerful force. Can i ask a followup question absolutely. Direct you mentioned power enchanting and that raises the question what about our new england abolitionists who are paying very close attention to runaway slaves coming north . Is there any organized attention paid to the refuge mexico provides for slaves by the new england abolitionists . Guest that is an excellent question. So benjamin lunday was a very prominent quaker abolitionist actually goes to mexico in 1830s and tries to establish a community for free blacks the United States to come to mexico. She becomes aware of the fact that mexico is moving in this antislavery direction. He is aware. And she is commenting. Hes actually using that moral power in the same way channing did saying how they are doing this and we are not. Its not as prominent as you might think. And the reasons for that would be to open to speculation. I cannot say for sure. But my inclination is that semi barbarous nation from chanting as part of it. Its so inconceivable that mexico would promise freedom to enslaved people in a way that is not quite as shocking to see canada and the British Empire. I think that it was inconceivable and therefore ignored. Is africanamericans as particular interested in the people of the africanamericans they talked about. This is a two or three part question pretty answered this first question a bit in your discussion. Did enslaved people find opportunity and mexico . I know they were relegated to menial labor jobs. But also the military which i want to ask a separate question. Or was it really a mixed bag . Did it mere for example the lack of opportunity of many free blacks were relegated to an both northern and Southern Society . Guest thats a really great question. The answer is yes. They were working primarily those who enter the labor force were working in menial tasks. But at the same time, in the United States there were better jobs to be had. And in mexico there were fewer better jobs to be had. So that is the difference pos have to take into account. What the alternative is. What were mexican people able to do versus what were white people in the United States able to do . I think the contrast is less dark and mexico. The other point that he think is important to make is at least for the enslaved people in the military colonies, their military service according to mexicos laws entitled them land and citizenship. Again use that moral power during reconstruction the Previous Bureau had failed to do. So there is that promise of political participation and a way that it of course limited in the United States after reconstruction. Ian even in the northern states that had ended slavery. But for the runaway slaves that joint mexicos labor force youre also seeing some evidence that they were able to become naturalized citizens. Mexico had this coming dont want to get too much into the complicated means someone to become a naturalized. Some would suggest those of north african descent were able to become naturalized without the military consents. Stuart i want to elaborate a little more on blacks who served in the military. And that represent form of advancement, status or upward mobility. Im thinking parallel to United States mightve been the black freedom that hire berlin talked about way back when on free blacks in new orleans. The creel militia for example were really you delete group in the area. Guest yes that is a great question your absolute rights. The link between military service and citizenship in so many different preimposed emancipation societies. I do think we see something similar in mexico where you have these generals in northeastern mexico. Remember mexico doesnt have the same power as United States. There struggling with the Northern Frontier. And you have these mexican generals writing to mexico city saying i have these indigenous slaves this Artillery Company and they have come against this invader. We are very pleased with having these extra sets of hands to help. And that help to justify coming think although its hard to see the focus on here, i think the usefulness of these people of african descent helps lead the Mexican Government to adopt increasingly radical antislavery policies. I think there is a compelling argument to be made that the actions of these people escaping to mexico as part of understanding why mexico passed such radical laws. And so military service to conclude and hope to establish a place for runaway slaves and people of color in mexico. More practically, military service and again we see parallels in the United States and other emancipation societies were military Service Gives you the ability to defend yourself. And in these military colonies there instances in which theyre coming to try to kidnap fugitive slaves. They were able to defend themselves with the weapons that they have and given the experience they have had fighting other invaders. Through an similar question again in fastening of these individuals you were able to defy in various sources. Can you share with us how you were able to reconstruct their lives . The second part of this question is did you look in a slave narratives similar to the body of 100 or so that i assigned every semester and we know so will the United States. Spit it yes thats a terrific great question again. I start the slave narrative. I was so hoping that i would be able to find something and i didnt. Probably in member of reasons for that. One, you dont have the established antislavery abolitionist machines helping to get these things published in mexico as you do in the northern states. I think thats the reason why you dont see you then. Probably the most compelling reason. I also think it is worth noting that this is the beginning of a couple of other people who are working on similar work that i did not find and i really hope they will so we can get a better sense of their own perspective. Because as your question noted its really hard to reconstruct these lives. I rely on three sets of sources, which each have their own problems. One of the many simple records where we know there were enslaved people. After going through many, many boxes and boxes find her in official is saying the slave has arrived they change their name. Doesnt give us that great view into their own to the perspective inexperience of enslaved people. We also see at a larger level in mexico, the high levels of government, with that means for mexico. And finally we have those indictments testimony that was taken over the course of those legal cases include from enslaved people so 1851 case that i showed a picture of, we have testimony who was the runaway slave that William Cheney tried to kidnap. And you know its not exactly in her own words with sources of testimony for theirs and notary or someone else and she did this. Is not an unadulterated source. Those are the few times that we can really see close to their own words what is going on. And with the others we really do have to rely on their actions to get a sense of what their experiences were like. Okay alice how my slaves generally to mexico . And again i am relate of the late general franklins runaway slaves published in 1999, encoding yet its never known how we slaves will be runaway to any given time. How many did you ascertain can you tell fits and estimate your best guess or how to derive at that figure . Speech of the milliondollar question for is a first question anyone asks. Usually the Second Period i tried my hardest to get every possible source like it help to come up with an estimate. And im going to try to go since as quickly as possible for those people who are interested. You go to my website which is Alice Baumgartner. Com. It has my methodological acacia in the sources that i can come up with such a method. So theres a number of different sources that point to, there runaway ads which she was using his book. But those really only give us a sense of how many slaves were escaping, not where they were going. This indication not all enslaved people were going to mexico so that is a problem. We have runaway notices which are different from ads. These are notices that were published in papers when runaways were captured. And those notices include not where the writer was captured where they claim to have come from. Its a general sense of corrections over enslaved people were going. Most of them did seem to be going towards mexico if theyre going through the territories as i mentioned. It does not help us come up with an overall estimate because we want to know how many people made it to mexico not have were caught along the route. The first were contemporary estimates from people in texas. These are also quite problematic in that taking the consensus the texas ranger estimated there are 3000 enslaved people who had escaped. In the 1850s. He does not know thats not a very reliable source. Mexican sources would be great. The problem with them is that in 1821 when mexico declared, it also abolished district those distinction remain. But in official documents like census, it is very, very rare to find any documentation of someones race. That makes it quite a bit harder to know whether or not someone was discovering they were slave. There are six, thereto mexican sources i found that included some data about race. The first was 171 volumes, these are basically temporary resident visas. They allowed foreigners to stay in mexico for up to a year. And i went through all of these. They include physical descriptions because you need to be able to tell a person who has this is in fact the person to whom it was given. So i went through all of those documents. It took me a really long time for the had a database. And with the course of going to those volumes that was very unlikely that those people applying for this were in fact fugitive slaves. And the reason for that is that if they did seek temporary residence there is a separate process to become a naturalized citizen. And if you wanted to become a naturalized citizen, you actually havent taken out or applied for this undermines your claim youre coming to mexico with the intent to stay, to stay there permanently. So after going through these hundred 71 vibes i realized that was not going to help me figure out the number of fugitive slaves either. But if you number etu 41 census that i showed in my slides, that did show foreign born africanamericans. And after talking to a statistician friend who basically was like theres no way you can estimate this but this is probably the closest you can get, you could take that census showed foreign born people of african dissent, just look at the ones in the United States. And i compared that to my database of everyone who had applied for that. And of the, i think they were 15 africanamericans on that list. And only two of them had applied for that in 1841. So you have a ratio of the number of people who applied who were likely free blacks to those who did not apply. Then of course, using this ratio is going to give you too many. Not everyone who didnt apply was a fugitive slave. But if you give us an upper limit of what might have been seen. And when you use that ratio, basically through each year of people applying for it, you get an upper estimate of 6000 fugitive slaves reaching mexico between 1841 in 1859 which is when the volumes ended. So thats the upper limits. An obsolete start to 1941. Seer not getting those earlier escapees. But as i said before, there are other people who are working on this. I hope more and more people work on it. Its just a start, it is a star start. As a foreign 6000 slaves in between there is my very rough back of the envelope estimate. Alice go ahead and went a couple coming through. So you share this wonderful story of a runaway slave. I cant recall if he came from texas, skate from texas or mexico. And then he goes back to him the United States to retrieve his family which suggests to me that perhaps as difficult as life might have been or must have been in mexico it was still preferable to slavery in the United States. Yesterday also talk about applying for these travel visas and there is some diplomatic quirks that go along with that with United States. Can you elaborate briefly on that for the audience . Guest yes absolutely. So james and gaps in who negotiated the purchase when he was u. S. Minister to mexico, realizes there are these temporary visas. And he decides the people who are applying for them are fugitive slaves. And if he convinces the Mexican Government to not issue those two people of african descent from an ice age to prevent fugitive slaves for being able to find freedom in mexico. Just the fact that he is doing this shows how concerned they are and how frustrated they are they cannot get an extradition treaty. Of course that doesnt work. The Mexican Government refuses to honor that order. It would not estop fugitive slaves from coming anyway. Because theyre trying to get it anyway the rate naturalization permits. It is such a wild story, while the temps im so glad you brought up returned to texas the owners would say did they get back they hated we have a couple of different examples of that i think the one you were referencing was coming from an oral history taken with the descendents of fugitive slaves. By the late Kenneth Wiggins porter africanamerican historian who took the oral histories in 1940. Slave people going back that touches on a question that comes up from our audience about descendents still in mexico. So the popular understanding of recognition among this people are in mexico. Historical culture. The porter paper includes transcript the oral interviews which were such an amazing go back to that comment of how you construct their lives that was it was amazing amazing four. Theres not a broad general recognition of the countrys past was slavery. Between 1580 and 1640, spain which became mexico imported more african slaves in any other place in the americas. They had a huge role in the slave trade. There actually is a substantial proportion of population of african mexicans particularly around southeastern mexico. But, partly the results of this 1821 decree in this independence mythology of getting rid of the past, which was confirmed in the early 20th century of the mexican revolution trying to create this one mexican race, that when i tell people what i was working on a mexico there like there are no black people here. Its not something, something that again is being recognized more and more with some really wonderful mexican historians are doing really good work to help show the long history of people of african descent in mexico. Wonderful thank you. Now i had the opportunity, elsa couple of this effort mexican committees near bear cues with a study group about ten or 15 years ago from texas a and m. They were very, very interested. Its kind of like a reawakening i say we African Americans face in the 1960s. Theyre trying to understand it there they were very proud and called themselves black herb plaque mexican or afro mexican. They invited us into their homes. They invite us into their communities. We shared meals with them we dance with them. A good time was had by all. I would like to ask one more question, built in the navy you can turn it over to the audienc audience. That is this is one of the major themes of the book. Slave people that escape to mexico and antislavery laws entitle them to freedom. And then contributed to controversy over the future of human bondage in the United States. This contributes to the coming of the civil war that be a state fair statement. We have wonderful questions and a lot of imports i apologize will not get to all them by any means. But we obviously encourage you to read elsas book as well. So alice, let me roll a couple of these together because they are parallel questions. One is, are the fugitive slaves going elsewhere in the americas. Entitled to that the new era in south of mexico and the central and south america. Do those play a role here in either the diplomacy or maybe as receiving site for fugitives . Guest that is such a great question. So let me tackle the first one about where people were escaping and the book says, professor while bite John Hope Franklin with runaway slaves did a really good job of breaking on the different places were enslaved people escaped. He finds that the vast majority of them were escaping locally for their hiding out, so its important to recognize that. But for those who escaped beyond the United States, as evidence of them escaping to mexico like we talked about, theres evidence of them trying to escape to haiti from florida. Pretty much wherever come hope this is not an exaggeration but i hope it is true. Ever there is a promise of freedom you can usually find it people trying to escape there. And it wasnt bounded just by land. In Mice Research i found fugitive slaves who boarded ships have bound for other destinations in the gulf of mexico. And they would hide on ships and escape that way. The ingenuity of these runaways is just amazing. The second question about the role the new republic plates is just beginning to understand one of my colleagues is writing a book about abolition in grand columbia which is now columbia venezuela. And one of my mentors in graduate school, is also writing about abolition in that region. So we are really starting to understand more and more about how that is working. To think that is going to be a really important peace of the puzzle. Because i found, which is one of the most amazing, or surprising documents that i found over the course of my research was in the early 1820s, there talking with one another they can free from spanish colloquialism and puerto rico cuba of course is an important slaveholding island. And they have all of these conversations and freed the slaves there being an uprising. And that they could free cuba that way. And there is a hemispheric conversation at least between mexico and colombia. I think as we learn more about abolition and these antislavery republics, i think were going to start to see more. Well find out more about those communications and how they are playing a role in this larger hemispheric conversation about slavery and freedom. Is what role do they play in Indigenous People in the american borderlands of the southwest have in your story . And or the story you mentioned fugitive slaves escaping to the indian territory. What is the indigenous peace of all this . Guest that is a really great question. In my research is mostly focusing on the seminoles who originally were in florida. And even when they were in florida enslaved people from georgia and the carolinas were escaping to join them. They then were forced to move from their homeland to indian territory where they were forced to share a reservation with the creeks. That did not go particularly well. There is over lands, there is accusations that they were trying to enslave the black seminoles which is the name of the descendents of the original fugitive slaves joining the seminole in florida. And in 1849, a year after mexico has issued this decree establishing the military colonies and asking foreigners to come and fight in those military colonies, a seminole delegation which includes a substantial portion of black seminoles, goes to mexico and agrees to settle in these areas. There are some really good books about the seminole and mexico that go into greater detail than i do. So most of my work has been focused on that part for the seminoles rather than other Indigenous People. Over the course we did come across instances of enslaved people joining or escaping to the west and joining indigenous nations further west to texas. But again it is another vein of this story that remains to be explored. Rates. So your book is bracketed by the early period in the coming of the work for obvious reasons about slavery, freedom and geopolitics. But there is the question that has come up about post civil war. Do you have a sense that African Americans and free people continue to look to mexico as reconstruction fails and jim harrell writes is there a another generation of escape . Guest that is a really good question. And i wish i had a more satisfying answer to it. I know that there were attempts in the late 19th century to establish colonies of African Americans in southeastern mexic mexico. But they generally did not really work. And that is fully the extent of my knowledge and most of my research. Again raising a lot of really good questions for future historians to answer. Guest we know a little bit about some of the coffee colonies that have africanamerican workers in mexico on the mexican side. Ill do you know anything about the story . No i dont. Made me think when you asked the question im thinking of germ works book who are southern planters actually go both to brazil and mexico after the war looking for a different kind of society. They were they not surprisingly got to brazil and found out how multiracial it was. And most of them returned. Beyond that and a very little about it as well. Some xl you touched upon this in your remarks at the beginning of our conversation today. There is a question here about how complicating this feature of the diplomatic relationship between mexico and the United States was. Talk a little bit more about the obvious tensions i suspect all this provoked at the highest level of diplomacy. The neck yes. That is a great question. The u. S. Government, one of their big goals for the u. S. Minister to mexico, particularly after the mexicanamerican war is to get extradition treaties that include fugitive slaves. And they think this should be an easy sell because their indention servants from mexico also escaping to texas inviting employment there. They think if they can just promise to return to extradite indentured servants, and in return for mexico returning fugitive slaves this should be easy. Of course it was not that easy. For couple of reasons. First mexico at this time is really defining itself and creating a sense of nationalism theres antislavery. And another problem is that indentured servants had wrapped up in northeastern mexico just more that large. There is usually a month or two of labor. When you have a lot of indentured servants it is a problem and you see employers in northeastern mexico complaining about indentured servants leaving. But the amount of debt that they owed was generally not as large as say in southern mexico for the debts really were very, very large. We know all this from hacienda studies that were really amazing work being done in the 1970s. That is part of the reason mexico is refusing to do it. Also maybe this is what the question is getting at, that the United States has taken half of mexicos territory. A third if you exclude texas. But a huge amount of mexicos territories. And there are mexican diplomats saying slavery is the rock with which we can destroy the giants. They are very, very much aware. They are going back to that moral powerpoint. They are using this to their advantages as much as possible hurt and refusing in 1849, 1850, 1853, 1859 to agree with these extradition treaties. I know you have to leave us soon to teach a class. Before you go like to keep talking for couple minutes. But before you go jeff anything else you like to add or ask . First about i have enjoyed this immensely. I went everyone out there. And i hope alice addresses this in the next couple of minutes, is to think of how we might begin to reteach our American History survey class. This is when the questions i didnt get choi finished a unit a week or two ago on sectionalism and the coming of the civil war. And i have, for four decades talked about slaves running away to mexico. Also about the slave colonies. In trying to think of the name or they come together in florid florida. But also in other parts of the new world. And in societies pretty hope we all think about how we might begin to rethink how we teach this unit. And even our American History surveys. Thank you al. I cannot thank you enough for being with us today. Obviously you need to head off to class whenever you need to. But we are really grateful to you. Ive one question what to ask you the came up with this group. Maybe you can address that question about reimagining our american surveys. The question came up is where is the Catholic Church in all of this. The church is central to understanding the history, particularly of that in mexico. One of the ways in which slavery was different in new spain than it was in the british colonies was that enslaved people were not just subject to the will of their masters. They were also subject of the crown. There are also members of the church. There were just Different Centers of power as a result of the presence of the church. And we see really early antislavery sentiment in the spanish world as a result of that catholic teaching. And honestly they do not act on that. But in the movements of the latin public movements and in mexico, religious language is being used to justify these antislavery laws. The catholicism is incredibly important to the story. We have really early instances of fugitive slaves claiming their freedom and mexico on the basis of having converted to catholicism. That is also parts of the People Strategy proclaiming their freedom and mexico. Well have a couple minutes left maybe i will tackle als excellent question about how does this teach the survey put a really hope it does change how we teach the survey paid for all of you have taken the us history class you probably have had to learn about the wilmot proviso, you might not remember what it is pretty hope your members can using. The wilmot proviso is the measured 1846 the start of the mexicanamerican war that basically said whatever territory we acquire from mexico is not going to have slavery. Not quite establish slavery there. Historians have written poems why this northern democrat who voted for the annexation of texas as a slave state has adjusted this law, by all these northern democrats voted for the law. And really the way to explain that as i mentioned at the beginning is to go back on the congressional records where they are reading mexican laws in spanish on the floor of the congress. They are saying mexico has abolished slavery we cannot reestablish it or we will commit the same crime that Great Britain did by establishing slavery the british colony of north america. It is hugely powerful argument. I think we need to incorporate mexicos antislavery laws to our understanding of the coming of the civil war. And of course part of understanding why mexico passed these antislavery laws is the action of the runaways themselves who are running away often before there is a clear path to freedom. And who are making the arguments that they should be free under more reticular laws who are proving their usefulness to mexico by taking up arms against them. That they are part of this story of mexicos antislavery laws. And those antislavery laws have this really central role to play in the debates over the acquisition of mexican territories. Fabulous. I agree with you one 100 . I fully expect work like this to fundamentally change the American History survey. So all the more power to you and other colleagues who are working on these themes. Were going to ask one more question. And as i do i want to thank everyone again for being with us. I want to congratulate my colleague baumgartner on this wonderful book. Short to make a splash in the way we think about a lot of issues in our past in the past of the republican of mexico. The question is one i think you may have touched upon in earlie earlier. Did the fugitives themselves ever travel or congregate in groups large enough to establish black towns like we see or black communities, fugitive communities. Or are they distributed in their relatively small numbers distributed art existing towns and villages . Guest that is a great question as well. I feel like i keep repeating thats a great question, that is a wonderful our conversation is a result of these conversations. The short answer is not really. The closest we get to that is the Military Colony which becomes this magnet for fugitive slaves they are assembling around the black seminoles. And intermarrying with local mexicans and becoming a part of that community. It is a different sort of situation than the black towns have seen but im guessing this is black towns and post reconstruction west where there is immigrant companies created in these towns. We dont see that same creation mechanism that helps to ensure that town is primarily africanamerican. He did the enslaved people are escaping to mexico are primarily, they do form this community. There is still a great amount of the once her joining the labor force in their paths are much more dispersed. congratulations, thanks for being with us. 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