Opportunity for the nation to imagine itself otherwise. Where the country had an opportunity to leave behind the realitycynd how to organize our society and that each of those moments the country double down. And we saw was some call a backlash. We saw instead was an ongoing betrayal. What we think about the post reconstruction. And a lost cause and that anglosaxon and what it meant for the United States and the world as a betrayal. Think the mid 20th century the black freedom movement, law and order and the tax revolt in california, we need double down on our ugliness and here we are facing a chance to we imagine ourselves. If our history is any indicatio indication. Has there been an arc of progress . Of course. My life is not what my fathers life was and his life is not his fatherss. So what does it mean to suggest we live in the afterlife of jim crow is to suggest there has been and indication of change and i think one way is look at American History ofan democracy in the believe that white People Matter more than others and that is the matter of the material condition that is with the disadvantage. Host what should we know about James Baldwin . Goodness. Its a pleasure for me to call him jimmy but i will most known him 30 years now. What should we know cracks a couple of things that he is an extraordinary example that when weth think about being born in harlem and coming of age in the aftermath of the catastrophe of the Great Depression and willing himself to become the worlds greatest writer as he put it when we step outside of the expectations of ourselves we talk revolution. And then the second thing is courage and his willingness not only to speak truth too power and to make that real but his courage to risk selfexamination in public and vulnerability. I interviewed angela davis , she said he was out there by himself even writing the second novel after he will go tell it on the mountain to embrace even though he was critical of black power continuing to bring critique on American Society is a black middle classss, his courage is something we should take but also his commitment to craft and discipline so all of those things come to mind. What about self exiled . What about a transatlantic commuter moving back and forth. On one level, its hard to live and i can imagine was particularly hard for him but the daily experience and the disregard and then need to require the distance so that you could Say Something substantive about it. Its not so much in exile but a kind of space that gives him the distance to understand the complexities of the american ideology. When you are caught up in it is very difficult to say and act in such a way to give you the elbowroom to bring serious criticism. Baldwin needed that distance and also some of us cannot afford to leave the country we need to establish the relevant sdistance to have something about these consequences and when they are in operation. Host as i look into the ruins with the election of donald trump and the ugliness that consumed my country, asked myself what do you do when you have lost faith in the place you call home cracks that wasnt the right way to put ithe i never had faith in the United States and the strongest sense of the world. I have never been a patriot. And what that word means. I always had this is an easy relationship with the tradition of understanding black america and those at a particular angle to america self understanding. But at the same time there is this aspiration animates the black radical tradition and a more democratic way of life and are just way of being. So what happens so with the space and the possibility when you begin to feel that rage joining with the deepseated doubt it becomes very difficult to hold one to holdug on and struggle for those democratic possibilities have never felt at home in this place but to feel like the metamorphosis coming to that realization and its hard to pick up. Host when you think about w eb deboer azores Stokely Carmichael or malcolm x. Where do you place yourself . Ive never been asked that question. I am always dealing with my rage and always on the verge of spilling over. And then this love. This is why am so attracted to baldwin as a figure because he stands in that space where red one nk rage and love with the convictions so where i stand is not so much between a black nationalism or revolution or liberal the typical way we render our politics in some ways i spend betwixt and between. I am not a liberal of course but there is a sense that malcolm brings a voice to my rage and for me to be courageous and doctor v king is the hope that i have a level heart and somewhere in between. And the 2016 book democracy in black, you write obama was supposed to be more. He was supposed to be different. We shouldve known better nothing obama said confirmed the believe he was a progressive savior. He is what he has always been. I got in a lot of trouble for that one. Im trying to say that we green framed that in that election cycle. We made him what we desired m mos most. We made him the antiwar candidate in some ways the avatar progressive politics and in some ways he jumped in front of the Grassroots Movement with black lives matter and occupy wall street and a sense of the Antiwar Movement and the sense that barack obama became the object. So we displaced our hopes and aspirations and he told us in his second book who he was exactly what he would do. He was very explicit that he was liberal in the vein of the clintons in some ways. We wanted him to be more than just a simple. I still remember my reaction and thinking oh my god this could happen and then we were confronted. Host eddie glaude what is the importance of moss point mississippi it is everything. I found myself when i first left home to go to college and tried to imagine myself and more expensive terms in my hometown. And then from the paper mill so listening to the blues every weekend because my mother and father kept blues on the radio on the weekend. And in some ways the gulf coast the saltiness of the air and the seafood and the rhythm , it finds its way on the page and in the way in which i think. It took me a while to come to terms with that. And it is everywhere in my work. Olst in your book you talk about running away at 16 to go to college. Why . My dad is watching but it was hard and was an exacting presence in some ways and i looked just like him. I had his hand and smiled and his anger and i felt like i needed to get away to survive. Think im really sensitive. And could scare you with the layer. And i think i needed to get awa away. And he understood in his own way when i asked him can i go to college . I had to get his permission. We were at the Kitchen Table he said i know what you are doing. Dont ever thank you will not need me. And lo and behold i lost my scholarship my sophomore year and without question he took a second mortgage on the house to pay for my college. So like jimmy, jimmy is very difficult it hard on himself in the early days of his writing but by the time you read the later writing and get closer to his death he understands more my father and i our love is deep. Host do you think your parents share your philosophical and political thleanings . I hope so they constantly comment on what to say on msnbc. Absolutely. And how i see the world is shaped by that household may tell the story we first brought her home in moss point and the police drove by in the cruiser and my dad said yes i own edge. It is mind when the neighbors aside he would take up the flowers he had given to the previous owner my father said what you doing . He said those are my flowers he said no i bought this property they are mine inme the neighbor in the back of the home or someone shut out one on out the window and my dad responded in kind through the magnolia tree that you protect your dignity and sanctity at all costs. But you stand up for what is right. Even though i felt scared at times in the clear that comes that you and with that age of injustice thats i want to tell myself. Host has marked for one moss point change . Yes. Absolutely. At one point we were are bustling little town our high school produced all of these amazing football and basketball players as a Young High School student walking into our cafeteria looking for our nose guard. We b had the brothers, generation after generation that made their way to the nfl. Now if the town is quieter some grew up and left but still has the best food on the planet to serving getting your master from Temple University and phd in religion from princeton professor which books are about religion and why. When i left i went to princeton to work with cornell west so i did mine a phd in religion and the voice been ntterested in politics and in princeton with emergent ethics and politics. Is the second theory political department, i always thought about of religion the broader question of africanamerican politics and because i worked with cornell west and jeffries doubt and they are philosophers although he is a religious historian. Myself bridging the two areas to think about philosophical questions historically and politics with that contextualization so that was my point of interest so my first book was about the exodus story early 19th century and the short introduction in the uncommon place. These try to give some indication to how i think about africanamerican religion from a pragmatic and historicalo perspective. It has everything to do with my training and everything to do with the tradition out of which iy come after american protestants and specifically the understanding of american lives. Host is christianity important to you personally . Sure. Absolutely. I was born and raised on the coast i grew up in the archdiocese and went to see peters so i grew up in the justified tradition and am is black church for the most part and then going to morehouse and with those extraordinary pictures and then trying to find my own way in terms of my religious belief i came to understand these stories animate the christian tradition are critical to how my see myself as a human being. And the stories offer insight what it means to be in the worl world. So i would say that the tradition matters but i come back to my own. Host i think its in your book exodus you identify yourself as a john do we were just who was john do we and what do you mean by pragmatist . John do we is the towering philosophical voice of the 20th century. With this Classical Group that would have us to look for those mutations but then understanding the capacity of human beings to transform. So there is a skepticism anti foundationalism that has everything to do with the capacity to determine. So i i became attracted and still have the legacy of the pragmatism shaping the way of now last i was a student while he worked on that manuscript and julie was attractive simply because the western. Go tradition but also with being the capacity of everyday ordinary people to transform their circumstances setting the stage for sophocles. So what i have done is to bring american pragmatism across the Railroad Track to bring that. Tradition into conversation with an africanamerican tradition and the result has been my body of work. Host and your body of work is what we are discussing. Princeton professor eddie glaude. His books. Exodus. A shade of blue, 2007. Africanamerican religion 2014. Democracy and black 2016. And uncommon faith 2018. The most recent book begin againes that is brandnew this year. We began taking your calls and comments in just a moment. As chair of the department of africanamerican studies at princeton what is important is to have a separate Africanamerican Studies Program at a university . I think it is absolutely critical because a conversation that has been maddow fruit different bibliographies that shape the body of knowledge to be transferred from one code to the next. I think about it offers an account of the world for the social ladder hand and the Vantage Point of the onaditional work of people of african descent and to change the orientation and so what we think and as diverse is in a country as complicated were since history so that we understand from the vantage is still atsign think about. Host there are a few issues here the last couple of years would you come down on them . This is the place you cancel. This is the place where people feel suffocated the flashlight down here stand was a place that was not welcoming to people like me but is grappling with that undertow. And i think the students and those that tos occur for the president s office as soon as he will push back to imagine yourself those appraisals will come for all americans and that aspiration. We struggle with it just like the country. Host but the builtin environment of america reflects a racist commitment. But we need to see an environment that reflects what the next is so the idea that was college and parents can come although dean of the colleges. Now is named at the Tony Morrison at this extraordinary moment because you have to change what you see so imagine black and brown students with their faith and talk about his view that he doesnt think we were capable and you have to navigate that every single day. So that is the changing of the colleges it is wonderful. Host how is Woodrow Wilson treated now at princeton . Truthfully. [laughter] i think that is the biggest shift you have to tell the truth there is no way princeton can tell the story of us of power Woodrow Wilson. She is central to modern princeton would it be university it is without him what he did. But you have to tell the truth about what he does and who he was. I remember from my graduate school days, and basically he walks on water but now i can tell the truth you may understand the type of values you want to percent and then you have to ask yourself the hard questions does he represent who we aspire to me . Does he represent you are . He is central to how we became instant. Host and really off the subject but it is in my head and was his line of work a . He delivered the first man. He delivered the mail. Every day. He did not take considerable tread the day that would give him a long weekend shows that means he has to see the test it with the heat of mississippi an and. Host tell us quickly about your mothers. My mom is amazing. Can i expect they do come home and work at 4 00 p. M. And not come home until 2 00 a. M. Myhoor approach but then just turning recently she suffered is still in the house he grew up and . R absolutely. The measurements for go but tawhen you put in the cup and page lets hear from you know theres first i have a question. Of the history which is an excellent so i think we have heard about the holiday banks in the state have the ownership to give its a different story the Driver Distraction some ways. But they also teaching africanAmerican History but they also teaching africanAmerican History. Caller good afternoon. Eddie glaude, eddie glaude, eddie glaude, you are so talented and deliberate. I have are watching you for while the snap one i cannot pronounce his name bad china has to include to along the line of how he is as well. Tell me about the scam going on around the black lives matter version and to defend the Police Meeting how they tried to separate it is and also how is said . I remember he wanted to go out and protest with the church that situation. Host we would get the answers what do you mean when you say the scam . Caller she is gone sorry about that. I have an idea. First of all thank w you for your kind words and asking about my son he is thriving and in california working for defend the Public Service in the bay area he wants to be a public defender of god bless him. Im very proud. The first question i think she means the wayay it is scapegoated as the why of the slogan the way the police but conservative centrist democrats and in conservative districts against the wall and this is the reason why you just heard president obama referred to it as a snappy slogan that was antithetical to the efforts and convince others to join in the efforts. This is part of an old game we need to reject. That is to say defend the tiplace we dont think of it as a slogan but a policy agenda but what does it mean for municipalities to have 60 percent of the budgets of the mechanics of the incarcerated state. So with the d bad faith and to understand is to force us to debate which is defined by law and order. And we need to change that and move from law and order every human being deserves to be secure. It has everything to do with investing and Mental Health services and education. In philadelphia she called 911 her baby was having a mental episode and having a crisis instead of mental workers showed up we showed up and she had to bury a baby. That is the crystallization of thegh argument right there. Instead what we are hearing they are trying to go us back and we have to resist that at all cost. Caller. Host to take anything significant from the fact mr. Cote spent time in paris . I think that was a wonderful allusion to jimmy that there is a moment to get that requisite distance is important. But we can talk about that another time when they were trying to call for bird and then quick to talk about what happened. And how the french treated the algerians and the like. We dont want to trade one for another and across the globe to be mindful of those people across the globe as well. Host this text message says please explain the relationship between Richard Wright and James Baldwin. It is complicatedod. Baldwin would not be open if not for Richard Wright. How he didnt make it through high school. Another mississippi native. I cannot imagine what evidenced itself the world himself to become a writer. And when baldwin could barely findou the resources there is aa reason why baldwin and with that community. In so many ways and to serve as a father figure and thats what he seemed to think and the week can never say. Host i reside on the gold coast of mobile alabama. How has the pandemic affected your tops room and can yo