Ukraine and georgias relationship with nato and especially how these countries fit [audio difficulty] selection process. A bit of an issue that was announced by the secretarygeneral to see how theyre prepared for the next decade. And eventually maybe to use strategic concept, and i think this is not a luxury. The current one is from 2007, if im not mistaken, so i would argue there is a need to rethink nato strategy. The world that nato operates in today has certainly changed in about ten years. For instance, think about the increased presence of china and the European Security landscape, think about the continued assertiveness of russia and key regions for transAtlantic Security, but also [inaudible] cyber warfare, cyber attacks. So the alliance must adapt, and if it wants to stay relevant, it will meet these challenges. But that also includes how nato with partners. Its crucial that countries like ukraine or georgia are included in this 2030 reflection process because increasingly natos adaptation is depending also on the relationship with [inaudible] so i think in a nutshell, these are issues that we want to discuss today. What to expect from the 2030 reflection process, why does this process matter and what is the role of ik[inaudible] ukraine or georgia. Were also privileged today because our experts on the panel will give us an exclusive preview of the report that they wrote on this subject. So let me actually prointroduce our fabulous introduce our fabulous speakers today. First, the director of the new europe center. Welcome to you. The cofounder of the georgia began institute for Georgian Institute for strategic studies, and a member of the European Parliament but also actually a member of the group of experts of p the nato reflection proces. Thank you very much for taking the time to be with us. We are also expecting olga to joinjo us, the deputy Prime Minister for european [inaudible] atlantic integration of ukraine [audio difficulty] and we will, obviously, include conversation. This conversation is on the record. We will first turn to our speakers but then also go to you with, the audience, for q a. We really want it to be an interactive debate, so feel free, please, to use the zoom chat function. Ill be closely monitoring that and transfer your questions to our panelists. So we have about [audio difficulty] left for this conversation, and one of the authors of this report [inaudible] ukraine, nato integration [inaudible] on track, and which priorities do you see emerging . Good evening. First of all, let me thank you, bruno, for the pickup in organizing this event pickup in organizing this event, for partnership in this event. As we [inaudible] nato reflexion members met with the secretarygeneral back in august and their ideas and contribution to make the sprocess 2030. And i think what [inaudible] with regard to ukraine, we are pretty sure that in order to be comprehensive nato reflexion process needs to take ukraine and georgia. Thats why we stand together with georgian partners from Georgian Institute for strategic [inaudible] developed joint ukrainiangeorgia began expert recommendations for [inaudible] nato reflexion process. We are happy that we can today as well. We believe that both ukraine and georgia fully resolve to find a more prominent place in future strategic in the process than in the previous strategic [inaudible] i think as far as i will be, the document contains two mentions of ukraine and georgia, but cooperation with Russian Federation [inaudible] i think that it is fundamental important that natos new strategic document reflects the new realities in relation with ukraine and georgia and the new cchallenges to trapt trans Atlantic Security [inaudible] the russian government and the changing dynamics in the area. Letsib not forget that when we are talking about ukraine and georgia, we are talking about countries who have double meaning, play double role for the alliance. Both countries have, not only consumers but also contributors to the euro Atlantic Security by taking posture that alliance and operations ukraine, for example is contributed to all missions. Secondly, ukraine and georgia are two of the three countries aspiring to become membership. Membership in nato is not [inaudible] for ukraine integration for the priority which is supported at the level of Police Economy and importantly at the level of society in direct result of foreign aggression, by the way. I would like to underline her here change of president s in the course of nation integration has been challenged foreign wide. When we talk about nation membership are not suggesting some extraordinary but as you know, the nation of bucharest the second correlation is membership action plan which we consider most ukraine and georgia as our next political steps in our european integration. Membership in bucharest declaration is mentioned as the next step for georgia and ukraine membership. As a result of reflection is nato will speak to its opendoor policy and we expect applicatioi will not be selective but georgia and ukraine would be a critical roadmap to membership and among other things i think it is important to mention that this opendoor policy will encourage georgia to improve their democratic practices and form agenda because what ukraine and georgia remains to be an important advantage and drive ukraine and georgia as policy makers. It helps keep politicians and helps them transform our countrys institution, both political and militarily and france needs to natos interest c support their informed efforts. By doing so nato will expand the community of likeminded stable and predictable democracy. It is natos interest as well. We also expect ukraine and georgia [inaudible] the black sea region. Our strategic location makes both ukraine and georgia indispensable to an arrangement in the region. Einitially from our point of view they can start with the participation of georgia and ukraine. G they should Pay Attention to being over present integrationce [inaudible] last but not least, in our view nato should identify russia as the main longterm threat to security and put an equal emphasis on audit georgia and ukraine can begin with the long experience of dealing with russians and identify and form and respond to the threat faced by the alliance and partners. La low intensity conflicts in which russia has been involved for which russia has been we should remember that russia at the moment in [inaudible] foreign conflict should be another focus of nato membership. Russian occupied tour tory are convenience place to undermine International Law which involves smuggling, which involves arms trafficking. I think i will stop here and let men want to elaborate more on our recommendation. Thank you very much, Alyona Getmanchuk. This was a good kickoff and i appreciate, not only as a security rule but the security provider and its an important point. Going backy that the georgian point of vieww i hear the others agreed to better consider the role of countries like georgia and ukraine in the nato process. Alyona getmanchuk with some points about this so what would be your recommendation from georgian perspective . Thank you very much. First of all, thanks a lot to the organizers and to our partners for producing this report. It is great. I actually do see a huge value in hearing the voices because if you look at how the realities on the ground and the dynamics that are changing the value will be increasing in the years to come. Theres a collective defense is such will be we have to have a holistic view about the collective defense so the countries that have been in close operation in partnership now and seen the evolution of the partnership for 30 years and would been a reliable partners throughout this time in a neighborhood which sees the underproductive old environment have been stably democratic and maybe not consolidated of course having flaws but are still trying to keep ourselves on track of being democratic and i think thats extremely important. Part of this as you have mentioned and Alyona Getmanchuk mentioned that weve contributed to International Security and we have small and georgia small and ukraine is bigger than us but we were trying to punch above our weight or in spite of it and in spite of having these internal problems of our own i think that georgia and ukraine have made it very serious case about being the contributor but also credible at this time. I think that i want to take a Bigger Picture view of why i think that. Its this window of opportunity for both sides. The region has seen a very dramatic change of the dynamic in the recent weeks, i would say for about a month and we have a very different status quo right now. Many see this as not only a perception but also on an effective level as the weakness of the question or seeing it as being pushed out or cut out from a region which traditionally has always been present but nowadays the status quote is Something Else and considering that and considering the georgia ukraine remains prowestern for quite some time and i think for nato and the ones coming up in the conquest should think about what will be the value of this country and different dimensions but i will try to explain what those dimensions are and talk about the strategic dimensions, military ones and also value based dimension which i think will be something we have to think about provided that there will be i a rethinking in washington probably with the new administration comes in and some of the points that will be made already are pretty interesting and away way because this will be a new thinking rising in the region as well. With that in mind i would like to make a few cases now. This is also part of our report but just been so synced. I think young democracies like georgia and ukraine definitely deserve to have a better understanding to have a better i would say traction because they are the ones who have proven to continue the democratic trends in the region and others are looking up and lete it be belas many in the people thinking that everything is deadlocked in oure region as well but then there was a very Interesting Development in armenia and everyone is thinking that will not happen but most of the time is happening because they have a moral example being president in the vicinity or region so if you have democracies like georgia and ukraine and given the chance so opendoor policy and i would like to agree with alyona with the opendoor policy should not be the case but we are building this case there should come a very clear political message paid we do have a clear political message for quite some time but those messages should effect by more practical means. No one in theou region has a problem with the practical side of ourit operations with nato. It is been very, very much fine. We are enhanced Opportunity Partners and good interrupters and initiatives as we have for quite some time but when it comes to the political side there still understanding that that lags behind and that is also opportunity for nato because opendoor policies, as acyou rightly mentioned also gis relevance to nato because nato has to find itself to be relevant and i think that we see much more than just military consideration but also gives the power of the [inaudible] sitting for some very but when it comes to strategiche considerations ad they are making some things are not indispensablele we are trant routes and hubs in one way or another we also help if you or others from the russian cloud and whether it be the Energy Carriers or cargo which goes in that it be lands or maritime and it was important. In ther. Years to come we will e that other players and right now it is been more cautious but definitely having plans to get more bri and begin about various projects and it does seem to be slow for some reasons but we can talk about that as well and there is going to be a turkey connection which, of course, is an date number of nato but increasingly independent thats a new factor which all of us have to be thinking about and georgia is a partner in his continuing for quite some time and we are perfect relations and then we have russia. Russia will always have socalled quotation marks an understanding of where they are, why they are in the region so considering all of this the strategics inclusion of georgia and ukraine and a new wave of political expansion there is greater value to nato as well because the original states and everyone recognizes in the previous that the eastern flank needs to be reinforced and everyone understands that. Let me ask you to round up here because just two more minutes. One minute. Thirty seconds. Okay. Thirty seconds for georgia and ukraine are indispensable when it comes to the plan southeast of the line and thats an extreme important. There are different ways and i can talk later about initiatives we can be coming up there. We will get back to some of your points. We lost interest in the debate so lets, you know, time for everyone to intervene. Alyona, thank you for joining us and i know that you presented some of your conclusions today with nato leadership so we would love to hear your insight there but let me also ask you this question if i may. Almost ten years ago nato also had a group of experts which was then chaired by Madeleine Albright and their job was to gadvise on nato 2020. I remember the big debate back then was whether nato should be in alliance or whether it is job was only to defend article five territory and back in 2010 answer was clear that it was article five territory. Now, do think the debate today is different because if nato is to strengthen its partnerships it needs to be n outsourced looking . Im sorry, i will answer your question and be quick. Im sure the debate goes on shirley but i owe you one point of explanation. Yes today we wer able, several minutes ago, we were able to finally read the report to nato secretary of trade general and fortunately for our todays meeting we aretill obliged to ep silent until orbliged by nato Foreign Ministers to silence their debate so that will happen december 1 and then our report is toe public so please maintain some patients that yes i think i am so muchi intertwid in the affairs o georgia and ukraine and particular those countries to nato that my remarks might be interesting to all of you. I still remember in my visitnt o ukraine it was august 2006 and standing togetr would then foreig minister boris [inaudible] in front of panel of journalists we were debating ukraines eventual accession to International Organizations lik the eu and there were som remarks about nato on amongst others as well. I would say that the spirit about nato was rather, not ambivalent but rather negative and everybody was afraid of aeaking openly about nato although i know that the will was there at that time. Shory the last six years and two ukraine fighting for territory integrity made a change within Public Perception also engagement of ukraine in many between with new accession and ukraine finds that Framework Agreement with the eu as well and i in my proven capacity as chair i met both ukraine and georgia soldiers in many nations over dwelt so truly i can prove with my own eyes that both countries are the providers of security for all eu Member States and nato allies. This is true. This is true. Those are both countries are extreme important and the thing wi georgiart i still remember talking to a number of representatives of nato allies who use to confirm that populations are most probably the most pro nato in the world and now we think nato we tend to complain about public support necessary to expand Public Diplomacy programs to ensure and to convince our popular respective populations about value, benefits and contribution of nato to world security. While in georgia, it is evident that the major part of Society Things known o it is now very positive in both countries and i still rember another event before bucharest i was at that time the head of the late president [inaudible] chancellery and was sent by him to consult with some of [inaudible] an in particular those who were about both countries obtaining maps at that time but unfortunately i participatedn bucharest, of course, as well so i remember the debates and all engagements and just before my eyes those discussions were at that time and yes, it was a promise in bucharest and i think that both countries wil become nato members and later on i remember responses and Nato Parliamentary Assembly i think it was [inaudible] replied. Clearly that yes, this promise ends. We have to repeat witness all those things and we hope nato has an open door policy is acknowledged by all of them and we are able to despite tensions and sometimes very difficult debates we remain united and that is alt contemporary messagi think about nato and we have been the most successful ally and we want to exist and ensure georgia and ukraine are in my private opinion im entitled to say now are very important factors to keep this position of nato. I thank you for your encouraging words and its important that personalities like yours express these opinionspe and its most useful. Let me turn to our last but not least [inaudible] so we were informed that the deputy Prime Minister is upheld the meeting butth you are deeply involved in policymaking and agenda setting. Thank you for joining us. I just wanted to perhaps poke your brain with a small question here. Weve just been hearing from all our speakers that look, ukraine and georgia we are security providers as well as the benefits from the potential memberships and my question to you is that membership is not that easy based on quantitative and a political decision and from your perspective do we deal with this need for political decision. Thank you. First of all let me put our apologies for not having today with we were really looking forward to that event but unfortunately due to situations she had to be in an important meeting and im very sorry