Transcripts For CSPAN2 Publisher And Author Discussion On Mu

Would greatly appreciate that. Okay thank you all, thank you alsouch. Hope you will stay in touch with each other. Okay byebye. And we wrap up our coverage of the recent brooklyn book festival and author discussion on multiethnic representation and publishing. Hi, i am suzanne im the ceo of penn america delighted to welcome you beyond prepositional politics and publishing. Assist in moderating this important discussion. We believe that the historic exclusion of certain people invoices from publishing is very much a Free Expression issue. Something that we can and must tackle as an organization with a mission to defend free speech. We work to up lift lesser heard voices those of the incarcerated, incarcerated, unseen in our program and we also bring together wide ring of stakeholders authors, publishers, editors need executives to discuss boundaries and how to break them down. So we have long been engaged in the debate concerning diversity and equity and publishing. And now, as the United States is in a moment of reckoning over the legacy of racism so too does the Publishing Industry. We know Baseline Survey that 76 of publishing staff with literary agents are white. This is with random House Speaker the nations largest trade book publisher released a report on workforce demographics showing 78 non work workplace only 4 is blackford Asian Americans makeup 8 of non warehouse staff and latinos 7 . Members of other major publishers are similar. When it comes to books there are no overall market statistics collected i what proportion are authors of color, less lets characters or stories. The cooperative book center does collect that data. Their study showed recent years some progress for the number of books published by black authors in 2019 had doubled over that in 2016 after a long period of stagnation. The watershed now underway over systemic racism has coincided the series of high series apartments the accomplish black leaders to post art lisa from our National Book foundation whos going to be in a senior role, dana kennedy at Simon Schuster and the latest wilson joining us training random House Speaker. Books about race in a dominating bestseller lists. This all comes amid a real debate about cultural appropriation, sourcing who has the right to survey which narrative. The server that came to a head earlier this year end the controversy over american. These stories are of interest to me personally and i have the my book free speech for all arcing that we can and must level the Playing Field for expression while at the same time robustly protecting freedom of speech. I cannot be more delighted to introduce our panel, Reagan Arthur the author editorinchief of catapult magazine, mcdonagh executive editor papillion and luis alberto, novelist poet, the fold bauserman clicked into the chat and interest of moving forward the conversation. Im delighted to welcome them. With her audience will move to audience questions. Probably about midway through this 45 minute session. You can have your questions in the q a column in the cloud cast platform pretty cost to put them in the chats. We have somebody who is monitoring and will convey them to us. I will get to them just as quickly as i can. So to begin, want to ask the panel whether you think we have arrived now is some sort of new breakthrough moment on issues of equity and inclusion in publishing. Are we just going to continue to grind it out in the years to come with small intra mental growth in terms of diversity, we going to look back at this moment as an Inflection Point, why or why not . What sorts of decisions and actions in the coming months and years to decide if this moment is decisive or not. The reagan maybell turn to you first. Yeah, i hope it is Inflection Point, it feels like one. Its kind of hard to know when youre in the moment. But this has been a year, i think you said reckoning. He think thats what it feels like to me. Its amazing to think American Dirt was the same calendar year so much as happened since. But that was a discussion that happened in many different contexts, and many offices and homes. I was on the tennis court a couple weeks ago in my suburban town. Its fascinating to me the impacts of that publication has on our business. On the company that published it. And on the way we think about the ways we publish certain books. I feel like that was the main issue of that particular book. We can talk about that or not. And then moving on to whats happened with black lives matte matter, with publishing, online, companies, readers and books and writers feels very meaningful and it feels. I think were looking at ways that we acquire, publish in new ways. And i dont certainly personally in the company i work for has to be a moment of permanent change. Thats how i am viewing at a think thats how my colleagues viewed at the moment. Its overdue. And important. And it has to be lasting. You have been at this along time. Im curious what you think. Do you think materially different as a footnote . Or is it a peace in terms of what you have seen for many years . People more people of color have been appointed to senior positions in publishing in the last year than have been appointed in decades. So yes. I think we are at an Inflection Point. But only at the beginning of that. Because right now the emphasis is on diversity and inclusion. It is a gatekeeping function. Until we see this kind of diversity and inclusion and all aspects of the publishing chain, sales and marketing, even a bookselling. I think we have a long way to go. Luis . Yes i agree. I do think its a moment of great change. You know i think youre seeing a lot of latin x writers evolve, giving opportunities. They have unbelievable talents out there. So that my career in the bottom of the 90s. I will say coming up from the south west and facing new york was shocking to me. What i heard from the mated one apa rabble browser. Think its partly the issue of geography, not just culture. I think you are seeing, from my experience anyway the great model lists of publishing have turned their eyes westward. Can you elaborate a little bit about what it was you heard back then that shocked you . Here comes the revolution. No. Yeah, my first book took ten years to get anybody to accept. Ten years of rejection. Which made me kind of pushy at the end of the tenures. I was totally to first things i was told was from an editor, not of this wonderful Publishing Company, i dont think i talk to you guys. But i was told it was a Nonfiction Book about the Mexican Court ordered the editor told me nobody cares about starving mexicans i said yes thats why im writing this boo book. I dont think people hear those things now. Not people i know. And you know, i have good relationships with lots of people in publishing. I see really a lot of pain i think over inequities and inequalities. And a desire to open opportunity pathways to opportunity. And responsible interaction with those authors. And people have asked me for help. Ive been trying to help as best i can. I try not to grab glory or credit for it. Just steering people to people. Thats part of it. I think part of the issue is also going in representation. I think agents are also transforming at this moment. You know its not just latinos. But of course that is my contingency. Host nicole your thoughts . Im a fairly recent debut author. As an Asian American writer i do think my race inexperience was certainly relevant in every step of publication. I want to say kind of a dream publication experience. I was with indy press as a catapult and have the support a lot of writers just dream about of the gate. Not at my publisher but elsewhere, particularly weird trend to sell it. Ive been told and have plenty of other writers of colors are still told the books you really want to write are often books that and being very successful were more accessible to people are excited people that show your back ground. If not how marketable are they . I do think you cared a lot less. I think a writers identity, how they were reviews values because of that its relevant in every stage. And i guess i would just, so import across the board with editorial in sales and marketin marketing, and copyediting even, some interesting questions can come up under been checked against a style guide. And i just think the more presentation of these companies have in terms of the workforce the publishing workforce. That can only help authors of color. The part i find most encouraging right now is that theyre starting to be more of a focus on not just numbers. Like who is at the table part other that is very important and always will be. I think were starting to talk more about the difference between numbers and equity. How equity really isnt about about equal outcomes for like black writers, brown writers and other writers of color. The been supportive throughout their careers, equal to white writers at the really big question. Thats the question i think it will be hard to have an answer for, a definitive answer until we can kind of look back at this moment for maybe three, five, ten years on. I do think a lot of the competitions being had written our great and encouraging. Let me hone in on the issue that many of you have raised about who is making the decisions . Not just editorial but as you say are all kind of down the line in sales and marketing, lisa call agents. Doesnt seemed like theres been a leg in this industry. Im not sure of the statistics bears this out. Fallen behind whats happened either in very other controversial whites like jaw hurt drove law or journalism, they all lag behind population as a whole. It striking in publishing particular because its a liberal industry, where i think people overwhelmingly would support supported the goals of diversity and inclusion. Its also striking that these employments commonly say number of them to be of people not exactly the ranks of big publishing. Its like a slightly adjacent phase. Who been pulled into top roles. That makes me wonder, where was the pipeline internally. And if it wasnt there why not . Im curious with reagan and what was that like what it views what if you seen, what is holding us back here . I think publishers still adhere, more or less,. [inaudible] there is such thing as mainstream culture. If we know anything about markets nowadays it is that industries acknowledge the fragmentation of markets. Were not so much at an Inflection Point but it inception points where publishers are beginning to understand that diversity and inclusion is good for capitalis capitalist. And the more markets they can serve effectively, the better it is for the bottom line. They are many other areas of consumer marketing where they little head . Or do you think not . When i started out in publishing, is interested by this category. The general reader. Ive no idea who the general reader was. Certainly wasnt me. My tastes are peculiar. So i never understood who this general reader was. I think to a certain degree, publishers have been traditionally guided by that notion of the general reader. And the general reader tends to be essentially aye middle to upper class reader. Lady my mom. [laughter] nowadays we are imagining the multiplicity of readers. All kinds of readers. An understanding that is what we are in the business to do. Not only culturally but economically. That sensibility of the commonality of the generalization, it came to me when i did flat copy and i realized i was guilty of using this phrase it someone else was using was even got to sign off your copy in some rousing way. This novel is a testament to the way it is now. And i just thought. [laughter] whose week . I dont know i just realized, i know ive written that softcopy myself. But what we is, my grammars all over the map here. You understand what im saying. If so many assumptions in our business its true who are readers who are publishing towards and to answer your question who we are in the companies that are making these decisions. It has been institutionally weighted geographically you have to live in new york pretty much. Maybe boston. You have to have a personal income to support you know starting salary was and he had to have a second job. You had to know people. The economics of his starting salary in publishing in 1989 or writedown 2020, we have to look outside the business. So few people could afford to live here and raise up in a way i was lucky enough to do. The deck was stacked, set a phrase . That is a phrase. I am curious reagan, you mentioned sort of American Dirt and how transformative you think that moment has been. I am curious, if you could unpack that. What you think have been the lessons of American Dirt . And what do you think is being done differently in the wake of that . Well, i just want to put that out there. I thought it was terrific i thought it was a thriller. I remember saying to amy, who was a friend i said i said this is the best story and you can handle that for your sales handle. And i think when i saw things happening around it, im friends with the publisher why look back and see the things, the way it was written about the fact check and it didnt. Assumptions that were made, i can see, i probably couldve made the same mistake. I didnt see it as a literary novel i saw as a commercial thriller. And i think perhaps that was a difference that set it on the path towards the problems it encountered. Does that answer your question. [laughter] im curious about what you think, how you think publishers or other players in that value chain would do things differently in the wake of American Dirt. A writer who is not definitively latino even i think Ginny Cummins does consider herself latina based on her puerto rican grandmother, with that but get bought . Would that be rejected how did but it unfold now . Its a question we had at the time. In my company. It did not prevent us from bidding on it. But it was a question we raised. I am interested to hear louise, maybes biting his tongue behind his hand. [laughter] i dont know. Reagan, reagan. I was so lucky to come little brown is been really great to me. I think a book like that, i will be diplomatic about it. You know is a Cartoon Version of what those funky Little Brown People do. People who dont know better, swallow the cartoon. Including the readership. That booked a lot of its veracity to a lot of other writers. That hangs listed from them and thats as far as i will go. I can name your exact page numbers from some of my books that are in that book. So you know the issue happened when people who knew better stepped up and said hey wait a minute, who is responsible for this . Why . Some of the Critical Response was fascinating. I never took it as a thriller, as a literary book i took it as a thriller. However if you were to write a thriller about purple americans and ufos flying around fighting gangs of poodles at disneyland its aye whats wrong . The details were complete scrambled and screwed. As because i think the people manning the gates had no idea what reality is. I think a lot of the angered response was, how eager people are too sort of swallow the pill of the worst of us. And things that did not make any sense. Details that were wrong. All kinds of stuff. I have a question. What would have been a corrective in the Publishing Company . What should the publisher have done . I dont know. Im glad i was not involved in that. I dont know, i am a thriller fiend. I love them, think they are great. I just dont know. When a lot of things blew up, there were, as you know very famous latin x writers who blurb did. I suspect without having read about one of them told me i was just trying to be helpful. And isabella and i talked about because she was curious about the uproar. Her point was i dont believe in censorship of any form. Which i thought was interesting. I dont either i dont believe in censorship of any form. I think when this firestorm began it just kept going, and going, and going. And circumstances outside of everyones control. The year of the plague kicking in, kind of stopped a lot of that. But i think the painful surgery around that, the kind of appendectomy that happened for everybody, was really useful. I think it makes people rethink things. I would say that doing things like the place settings made of border walls with barbed wire was a super while stupid mood. The upper flaunting of barbed wire fence fingernails was a really stupid move. Weather was racist or not i do not know. I just think it was silly. It was a thing that mistakes people make. And for example i want to sing the praise of my publisher, little brown. But i came into little brown because i think my editor, Jeff Chandler at that time was from the southwest. Hes not latino in any way. He came to me because he had a book he wanted done. the people see and learn and come through to another kind of breakthrough of vision, and i think, like i said at the beginning, a lot of us have availed ourselves we are helping editors and so forth who are looking for texts, and thats a good thing. I think thats a very good thing. I want to push the any of you can respond i think youre right, this table setting and the fingernails, you could say that was embarrassing and [loss of audio] more fundamental question. Something that comes up a lot that shouldnt be fixed boundaries in terms of who can tell which story and we struggle with hey to respond to this how to respond to this because we have a deepment to amplifying lesser heard voices and cognizant of the exclusion and limitations and so im curious, do you have thoughts on how this type of question some be approached differently and appropriately going forward, where there is a story that has someone has told from a battleground not their own that maybe has been researched and vetted somewhat, but had it never been fully, and how that should be thought about and approached, it should be approached . Or should he we be calling a moratorium for now on that . Im generally wary of blanket policies of any kind. I will say its a conversation not about americans specifically but in my day job im an editor of a Free Expression<\/a> issue. Something that we can and must tackle as an organization with a mission to defend free speech. We work to up lift lesser heard voices those of the incarcerated, incarcerated, unseen in our program and we also bring together wide ring of stakeholders authors, publishers, editors need executives to discuss boundaries and how to break them down. So we have long been engaged in the debate concerning diversity and equity and publishing. And now, as the United States<\/a> is in a moment of reckoning over the legacy of racism so too does the Publishing Industry<\/a>. We know Baseline Survey<\/a> that 76 of publishing staff with literary agents are white. This is with random House Speaker<\/a> the nations largest trade book publisher released a report on workforce demographics showing 78 non work workplace only 4 is blackford Asian Americans<\/a> makeup 8 of non warehouse staff and latinos 7 . Members of other major publishers are similar. When it comes to books there are no overall market statistics collected i what proportion are authors of color, less lets characters or stories. The cooperative book center does collect that data. Their study showed recent years some progress for the number of books published by black authors in 2019 had doubled over that in 2016 after a long period of stagnation. The watershed now underway over systemic racism has coincided the series of high series apartments the accomplish black leaders to post art lisa from our National Book<\/a> foundation whos going to be in a senior role, dana kennedy at Simon Schuster<\/a> and the latest wilson joining us training random House Speaker<\/a>. Books about race in a dominating bestseller lists. This all comes amid a real debate about cultural appropriation, sourcing who has the right to survey which narrative. The server that came to a head earlier this year end the controversy over american. These stories are of interest to me personally and i have the my book free speech for all arcing that we can and must level the Playing Field<\/a> for expression while at the same time robustly protecting freedom of speech. I cannot be more delighted to introduce our panel, Reagan Arthur<\/a> the author editorinchief of catapult magazine, mcdonagh executive editor papillion and luis alberto, novelist poet, the fold bauserman clicked into the chat and interest of moving forward the conversation. Im delighted to welcome them. With her audience will move to audience questions. Probably about midway through this 45 minute session. You can have your questions in the q a column in the cloud cast platform pretty cost to put them in the chats. We have somebody who is monitoring and will convey them to us. I will get to them just as quickly as i can. So to begin, want to ask the panel whether you think we have arrived now is some sort of new breakthrough moment on issues of equity and inclusion in publishing. Are we just going to continue to grind it out in the years to come with small intra mental growth in terms of diversity, we going to look back at this moment as an Inflection Point<\/a>, why or why not . What sorts of decisions and actions in the coming months and years to decide if this moment is decisive or not. The reagan maybell turn to you first. Yeah, i hope it is Inflection Point<\/a>, it feels like one. Its kind of hard to know when youre in the moment. But this has been a year, i think you said reckoning. He think thats what it feels like to me. Its amazing to think American Dirt<\/a> was the same calendar year so much as happened since. But that was a discussion that happened in many different contexts, and many offices and homes. I was on the tennis court a couple weeks ago in my suburban town. Its fascinating to me the impacts of that publication has on our business. On the company that published it. And on the way we think about the ways we publish certain books. I feel like that was the main issue of that particular book. We can talk about that or not. And then moving on to whats happened with black lives matte matter, with publishing, online, companies, readers and books and writers feels very meaningful and it feels. I think were looking at ways that we acquire, publish in new ways. And i dont certainly personally in the company i work for has to be a moment of permanent change. Thats how i am viewing at a think thats how my colleagues viewed at the moment. Its overdue. And important. And it has to be lasting. You have been at this along time. Im curious what you think. Do you think materially different as a footnote . Or is it a peace in terms of what you have seen for many years . People more people of color have been appointed to senior positions in publishing in the last year than have been appointed in decades. So yes. I think we are at an Inflection Point<\/a>. But only at the beginning of that. Because right now the emphasis is on diversity and inclusion. It is a gatekeeping function. Until we see this kind of diversity and inclusion and all aspects of the publishing chain, sales and marketing, even a bookselling. I think we have a long way to go. Luis . Yes i agree. I do think its a moment of great change. You know i think youre seeing a lot of latin x writers evolve, giving opportunities. They have unbelievable talents out there. So that my career in the bottom of the 90s. I will say coming up from the south west and facing new york was shocking to me. What i heard from the mated one apa rabble browser. Think its partly the issue of geography, not just culture. I think you are seeing, from my experience anyway the great model lists of publishing have turned their eyes westward. Can you elaborate a little bit about what it was you heard back then that shocked you . Here comes the revolution. No. Yeah, my first book took ten years to get anybody to accept. Ten years of rejection. Which made me kind of pushy at the end of the tenures. I was totally to first things i was told was from an editor, not of this wonderful Publishing Company<\/a>, i dont think i talk to you guys. But i was told it was a Nonfiction Book<\/a> about the Mexican Court<\/a> ordered the editor told me nobody cares about starving mexicans i said yes thats why im writing this boo book. I dont think people hear those things now. Not people i know. And you know, i have good relationships with lots of people in publishing. I see really a lot of pain i think over inequities and inequalities. And a desire to open opportunity pathways to opportunity. And responsible interaction with those authors. And people have asked me for help. Ive been trying to help as best i can. I try not to grab glory or credit for it. Just steering people to people. Thats part of it. I think part of the issue is also going in representation. I think agents are also transforming at this moment. You know its not just latinos. But of course that is my contingency. Host nicole your thoughts . Im a fairly recent debut author. As an Asian American<\/a> writer i do think my race inexperience was certainly relevant in every step of publication. I want to say kind of a dream publication experience. I was with indy press as a catapult and have the support a lot of writers just dream about of the gate. Not at my publisher but elsewhere, particularly weird trend to sell it. Ive been told and have plenty of other writers of colors are still told the books you really want to write are often books that and being very successful were more accessible to people are excited people that show your back ground. If not how marketable are they . I do think you cared a lot less. I think a writers identity, how they were reviews values because of that its relevant in every stage. And i guess i would just, so import across the board with editorial in sales and marketin marketing, and copyediting even, some interesting questions can come up under been checked against a style guide. And i just think the more presentation of these companies have in terms of the workforce the publishing workforce. That can only help authors of color. The part i find most encouraging right now is that theyre starting to be more of a focus on not just numbers. Like who is at the table part other that is very important and always will be. I think were starting to talk more about the difference between numbers and equity. How equity really isnt about about equal outcomes for like black writers, brown writers and other writers of color. The been supportive throughout their careers, equal to white writers at the really big question. Thats the question i think it will be hard to have an answer for, a definitive answer until we can kind of look back at this moment for maybe three, five, ten years on. I do think a lot of the competitions being had written our great and encouraging. Let me hone in on the issue that many of you have raised about who is making the decisions . Not just editorial but as you say are all kind of down the line in sales and marketing, lisa call agents. Doesnt seemed like theres been a leg in this industry. Im not sure of the statistics bears this out. Fallen behind whats happened either in very other controversial whites like jaw hurt drove law or journalism, they all lag behind population as a whole. It striking in publishing particular because its a liberal industry, where i think people overwhelmingly would support supported the goals of diversity and inclusion. Its also striking that these employments commonly say number of them to be of people not exactly the ranks of big publishing. Its like a slightly adjacent phase. Who been pulled into top roles. That makes me wonder, where was the pipeline internally. And if it wasnt there why not . Im curious with reagan and what was that like what it views what if you seen, what is holding us back here . I think publishers still adhere, more or less,. [inaudible] there is such thing as mainstream culture. If we know anything about markets nowadays it is that industries acknowledge the fragmentation of markets. Were not so much at an Inflection Point<\/a> but it inception points where publishers are beginning to understand that diversity and inclusion is good for capitalis capitalist. And the more markets they can serve effectively, the better it is for the bottom line. They are many other areas of consumer marketing where they little head . Or do you think not . When i started out in publishing, is interested by this category. The general reader. Ive no idea who the general reader was. Certainly wasnt me. My tastes are peculiar. So i never understood who this general reader was. I think to a certain degree, publishers have been traditionally guided by that notion of the general reader. And the general reader tends to be essentially aye middle to upper class reader. Lady my mom. [laughter] nowadays we are imagining the multiplicity of readers. All kinds of readers. An understanding that is what we are in the business to do. Not only culturally but economically. That sensibility of the commonality of the generalization, it came to me when i did flat copy and i realized i was guilty of using this phrase it someone else was using was even got to sign off your copy in some rousing way. This novel is a testament to the way it is now. And i just thought. [laughter] whose week . I dont know i just realized, i know ive written that softcopy myself. But what we is, my grammars all over the map here. You understand what im saying. If so many assumptions in our business its true who are readers who are publishing towards and to answer your question who we are in the companies that are making these decisions. It has been institutionally weighted geographically you have to live in new york pretty much. Maybe boston. You have to have a personal income to support you know starting salary was and he had to have a second job. You had to know people. The economics of his starting salary in publishing in 1989 or writedown 2020, we have to look outside the business. So few people could afford to live here and raise up in a way i was lucky enough to do. The deck was stacked, set a phrase . That is a phrase. I am curious reagan, you mentioned sort of American Dirt<\/a> and how transformative you think that moment has been. I am curious, if you could unpack that. What you think have been the lessons of American Dirt<\/a> . And what do you think is being done differently in the wake of that . Well, i just want to put that out there. I thought it was terrific i thought it was a thriller. I remember saying to amy, who was a friend i said i said this is the best story and you can handle that for your sales handle. And i think when i saw things happening around it, im friends with the publisher why look back and see the things, the way it was written about the fact check and it didnt. Assumptions that were made, i can see, i probably couldve made the same mistake. I didnt see it as a literary novel i saw as a commercial thriller. And i think perhaps that was a difference that set it on the path towards the problems it encountered. Does that answer your question. [laughter] im curious about what you think, how you think publishers or other players in that value chain would do things differently in the wake of American Dirt<\/a>. A writer who is not definitively latino even i think Ginny Cummins<\/a> does consider herself latina based on her puerto rican grandmother, with that but get bought . Would that be rejected how did but it unfold now . Its a question we had at the time. In my company. It did not prevent us from bidding on it. But it was a question we raised. I am interested to hear louise, maybes biting his tongue behind his hand. [laughter] i dont know. Reagan, reagan. I was so lucky to come little brown is been really great to me. I think a book like that, i will be diplomatic about it. You know is a Cartoon Version<\/a> of what those funky Little Brown People<\/a> do. People who dont know better, swallow the cartoon. Including the readership. That booked a lot of its veracity to a lot of other writers. That hangs listed from them and thats as far as i will go. I can name your exact page numbers from some of my books that are in that book. So you know the issue happened when people who knew better stepped up and said hey wait a minute, who is responsible for this . Why . Some of the Critical Response<\/a> was fascinating. I never took it as a thriller, as a literary book i took it as a thriller. However if you were to write a thriller about purple americans and ufos flying around fighting gangs of poodles at disneyland its aye whats wrong . The details were complete scrambled and screwed. As because i think the people manning the gates had no idea what reality is. I think a lot of the angered response was, how eager people are too sort of swallow the pill of the worst of us. And things that did not make any sense. Details that were wrong. All kinds of stuff. I have a question. What would have been a corrective in the Publishing Company<\/a> . What should the publisher have done . I dont know. Im glad i was not involved in that. I dont know, i am a thriller fiend. I love them, think they are great. I just dont know. When a lot of things blew up, there were, as you know very famous latin x writers who blurb did. I suspect without having read about one of them told me i was just trying to be helpful. And isabella and i talked about because she was curious about the uproar. Her point was i dont believe in censorship of any form. Which i thought was interesting. I dont either i dont believe in censorship of any form. I think when this firestorm began it just kept going, and going, and going. And circumstances outside of everyones control. The year of the plague kicking in, kind of stopped a lot of that. But i think the painful surgery around that, the kind of appendectomy that happened for everybody, was really useful. I think it makes people rethink things. I would say that doing things like the place settings made of border walls with barbed wire was a super while stupid mood. The upper flaunting of barbed wire fence fingernails was a really stupid move. Weather was racist or not i do not know. I just think it was silly. It was a thing that mistakes people make. And for example i want to sing the praise of my publisher, little brown. But i came into little brown because i think my editor, Jeff Chandler<\/a> at that time was from the southwest. Hes not latino in any way. He came to me because he had a book he wanted done. the people see and learn and come through to another kind of breakthrough of vision, and i think, like i said at the beginning, a lot of us have availed ourselves we are helping editors and so forth who are looking for texts, and thats a good thing. I think thats a very good thing. I want to push the any of you can respond i think youre right, this table setting and the fingernails, you could say that was embarrassing and [loss of audio] more fundamental question. Something that comes up a lot that shouldnt be fixed boundaries in terms of who can tell which story and we struggle with hey to respond to this how to respond to this because we have a deepment to amplifying lesser heard voices and cognizant of the exclusion and limitations and so im curious, do you have thoughts on how this type of question some be approached differently and appropriately going forward, where there is a story that has someone has told from a battleground not their own that maybe has been researched and vetted somewhat, but had it never been fully, and how that should be thought about and approached, it should be approached . Or should he we be calling a moratorium for now on that . Im generally wary of blanket policies of any kind. I will say its a conversation not about americans specifically but in my day job im an editor of a Literary Agency<\/a> and i have a editor of color and we talk but submissions, its different than books but one thing we talk about is authority, in terms of storytelling. One of the first questions i have about a draft is what is the story here, who is the writer, is its story that is theirs to be telling . And by that i dont necessarily mean they have to share backgrounds with the protagonist, but comes with a lot more nonfiction since i publish he essays. People are looking to interpret realities they have not lived. People whose narrative they want to tell is relying very heavily on people who are not there, whose lived experience they dont share. I wont say thats always a hard no. I say its something always noted but trained myself so note as an editor but always have questions that i would talk how to with the writer if im interested in a piece or work or sometimes it is grounds for passing, because its not right for me or its not right for the publication. So, i would just say i dont about a moratorium, and i always question how you have a blanket rule for people but its something i talk about a lot in my day job and something is think about as a writer when im telling a story, is it mine to tell . Thats a healthy question for writers to ask. I profoundly unnerved by notions of authenticity, authority, voracity because i think they court totalitarian parlance. The fundamental question for me would be who gets to employs authority, who get to determine authenticity . Whose veracity is it and those are questions that should keeps up a keep us all up at night. I agree with you totally. But you think pout this. Who can tell someone elses story, and one of the argue littles but the book, is exactly what youre saying, who get to tell the story. I think any number of people can tell the story of other people well. Malcolm lowerey was a hell of a writer about mexico. John reid, about the mexican revolution, pauls latest book on mexico. Some of the less over rage about that last kerfuffle kind of affected that book because there were people in Latinx Community<\/a> who said, howl dare he . He cant write a book about it. It did and its an amazing book. So i agree withyou. The policing aspect is nerveracking but there are folks that can help steer some of the more egregious problems and that i dont think thats a jackbooted thug response necessarily. I just think its a clear editorial i as we develop more use for ethnicities, cultures, backgrounds, well have more people that have an ear for it and thats just a learning process in my opinion, and its getting better, i think. Flat iron books took great pains to rectify peoples ill will. So i think things are evolving in their open way but i do think in response to what you say, its in their own way. I dont know it can be dictated. I dont think that reagan can now appoint a czar of mexicanness or whatever. You just can up in of you can do that. Its a process that develops, but i think one of the regulating factors is the occasional outrage of the populace show up with torches sometimes. Or twitter accounts. Yes, theyre burning twitter. Exactly. We have some questions from the audience. Anyone who wants to answer it and i encourage other audience members to share questions. Anybody who has ideas but reparations in the Publishing Industry<\/a>. I think about the that gone in the Publishing Industry<\/a> usually in the name of White Supremacy<\/a> and control of information, any idea for rep practicetive acts that could be done. You eluded to flat alluded to flat iron and restoration and do you think thats warranted . Is that the right way to think it . Im not sure i understand the question, rep operationtive acts towards holm . I interpret it as communities and writers from communities that historically were excluded or have limits opportunities to publish. I firmly believe it might not be a bad idea for consortium of publishers to make communities. When i started out in publishing i was toll that books by or about black people would not sell because black people dont read, but it occurred to me hat white people dont read either. So, i did not take that to heart, but to the degree that publishers have adhered to this notion over time, i think it would be good for them to engaming in outreach programs to underserved communities, to communities underserved by the Publishing Industry<\/a> tradition. Is that happening . I dont see it happening, but, for instance, i can imagine a consortium or publishers investing in book stores or book creating a competitive book chain maybe even. That will serve specific communities. I will say a mall way one thing that is happening and has been happening before this year is on the staff side is an effort to change our intern pool, which is such such a rarefied insidery pathway into the business. They pulled from the same six schools, relatives of employees were given internships, and now especially now this year you dont have to even live in new york to be an intern and you dont wave to go to one of the known schools necessarily, and i think thats one small step towards i wouldnt call it reparations but a step forward. Nicole, do you have anything [loss of audio] i think its great that opportunities i mean its unfortunate because of the pandemic that opportunities for internships and fellowships that publishers pay a living wage also are available to people in different geographic areas. Its interesting being part of like diversity and equity conversations that accompany that hiring and promotion will back big focus and makes a lot of sense. Like lay big part of the necessarily change, the change people want to see, so we have a more representative industry and more people across the bored board are empowered. Think on the flip side making this is something everybody is already thinking about but how to retain and support the staff once their once theyre in. The entry level, thats great, and i think its just youre looking at who really has you want to retain and support and empower these people because theyre your future leaders, and i obviously very frankly i think sometimes its up fair for people of color who are underrepresented in publishing to do the extra labor they feel if they feel any pressure to educate, also vote cat, mentor, support, they may or not be compensated for. I just think and that other people dont always do to an equal degree. I think thats its part of the same conversation. Not at owl a counter to what reagan said. Just kind of like, yes, and i think support and retention is so huge because what sort of companies and what sort of industry are people being welcomed spa and will they find the support they need to stay and thrive and make change. I think there was a hash tag that sort of took off a few months ago, publishing paid me, and it was a very Lively Exchange<\/a> where authors of all different races were coming clean but what advances they had received for their backs and trying to their books and trying to piece together disparities on the basis of identity, and from where i sit, struck fear in the hearts of publishers because is is the special sauce and one of the key levers of the business, that has always been i think kept under wraps, at it is in Many Industries<\/a> maybe most tries, nothing unusual, but this push to make it public, and im really curious what people made of that. You think it was healthy . Would more transparency be part of the answer here . And what form might that take, and are there sort of downsides potentially . To publicize advances in. Yes. Well, do you want people to know what you make . I mean, i think that in the thats dish think we have been i admired theres a writer in the midst of all that who tweeted he got paid 850,000, i think, for a novel that didnt do much, and the novel hadnt done much at the point he tweeted that and he was torn apart and it was i thought i was very brave of him to do that. And the it wasnt his fault he was paid so much money. Its a gambling business. You take your bets and member thought it was worth it and sometime theyd pay off and sometimes they dont. I guess theres an advantage in shining a light on what everybody gets paid but its a weirdly nonscientific my husband says, its like the wild west, theres no rules, its often no logic, maybe a publisher needed a book for a certain season and thought the was the shot. All kind of variables in the calculation that goes into the advance. I can see reasons why it doesnt the questions pout the equity of advances, but theyre all over the map. I dont know what im saying except for opening up the books like that, i dont need mean to sound like im keeping dark seek secrets but seems a slippery slope. As a nonprofit we actually have to disclose that. Oh, you do. I would si [overlapping speakers] what do others think . Well, that first book i was telling you about that took ten years to pressure, my advance was five grand. I thought i was in the bigtime. The worry about mega buckage seems to be wrong. Im not really concerned but what other people are getting in their advances or not. The editor my old buddy, jeff shand her, said you should think but the long run, and he kept telling me, you may not be selling a million copies of books but your books well be on the shelf forever, and i thought, thanks a lot, pal, but he was right. That book he bought for 5,000 it wasnt him. You guys paid me. The second not my first book over over. 35th printing now. Yeah, 35th. Thank you. You thick i miss you should much, but i miss you so much. Coming to you was the it was the harvest of years of being out there doing the thing, small presses, books printed in a friends garage. Attempts one or two new york publishers where i sold throw copies and they were very nice about it but it didnt work out, and little brown took me in and it was like going to college, learning what i thought the real game was, and it was amazing to has been amazing to be part of it, and now all of a sudden i find myself getting an advance that i used to think, what . About other people. But im not sure it changes anything. I think the point is what youre bringing to the book. I have seen our Publishing Company<\/a> take take backs that smh not have had a chance but might not have had a chance but people believed in those books and writers and gave. The a shot. Gave them a shot. Dont like to think of hollywood terms in terms of getting blockbuster advances and people who dont gate giant advance, i tell them, well, away it. Sell until your book earns out and then you get more money at the back end. Do what you have to do. Its also on us to do our work. So theres a balance there. I do think that, again, getting the doors open for people is important, and those doors i think are starting to open more and more. Our last question, because were almost out of time, we run a big program of literary awards as all of you know, and diversity in those awards has been a great point of pride. We have extremely diverse panels of judges and our winners have reflected that, but we took notice a few weeks ago when the authors announced theyre setting firm career too ya which books will be eligible for the Academy Awards<\/a> and best picture that theyre required, be required to have actors of color, crew members of color, and its this is after theyve tried to make changes to their voting structure to lessen the number of Academy Members<\/a> from decades past who are dominating the voting and diversify the its clear that didnt go far enough and theyve come to this. Its been criticized as an evident to dictate what stories can be told and how they can be told, and im curious what you think and whether you think in the book world the awards, programs have done better, may have something to teach, or how you see this, and we just have couple minutes to go. Es scar oscars sell movies. Book prices dont necessarily sell books. So i loathe to follow anything hollywood does by rote, much of what they do is publicity purposes. I dont see a similar thing in publishing. I cant imagine what kind of criteria you would have for books, given what books are supposed to be about. Anyone else . Are book awards part of the driver of change here . Not really . Its been very exciting to see the Prize Winners<\/a> of the past five or ten years. I think it is a much more diverse and interesting field of finalists and winners than it was 20 or 30 years ago. Weve come a long way since the taco story, much doubt, Toni Morrisons<\/a> beloved. The sam thing wont be happening anytime soon again. Thats a great note to end on, and a recognition of progress, which is always heartening. I want to thank our great panel, and the brooklyn book city festl and my colleague from pan mrs. Who put this together and leads our literary program, and our audience, thank you for being with us. Have a good night. Thank you, have a good evening. Thank you. Youre watching booktv on cspan2. Every weekend with the latest Nonfiction Book<\/a>s and authors. Cspan2, created by americas Cable Television<\/a> companies as a public service, and brought to you today by your television provider. Listen to cspan2 podcast the weekly, tking about the history of president ial transition with martha joint culpar the director of the the white house transition project. Here are the current best selling Nonfiction Book<\/a>s. Topping the list in a promised lean, former president barack obama reflects on his life and political career, and then Isabelle Wilkerson<\/a> rod explore asia who the calls a hayden cass. Caste system in the out, after that, a suggestion we should work with rather than shape the land we live on in braiding sweet grass and the best of me, collection of stories and essays by author and how manior yeas, david sed dairies. Next a discussion of the collection of the Justice Anthony<\/a> scalias writings, and then perri klass discusses the decrease in Child Mortality<\/a> and then a look at the history of census taking. Consult your Program Guide<\/a> to find more Schedule Information<\/a> or visit booktv. Org. Hello and welcome. We are on the top floor of a Tall Building<\/a> on a windy day of a Tropical Storm<\/a> so what could go wrong . Thank you all for coming. 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