Intervals and then there will be 15 minutes for all of you to ask any questions that you may have of them. The first panelist is dr. Thomas g. Burton, he is a Professor Emeritus of english at east Tennessee State university. He has produced three documentaries on sir spent handling and is the author of serpent handling believers, the serpent and the spirit, and Beach Mountain man, the memoirs of rhonda helix, his most recent book, voices worth the listening, three women of appalachia, is out now from Mercury University press. Please join me in welcoming tornado thomas burt dr. Thomas burton. The next person i would like to introduce is sarah smarsh. She is a kansasbased journalist who has reported for the New York Times, the guardian and other approximations. Per book pout working hard and being broke in the richest country on earth, very relatable title, let me tell you, what finalist for the National Book award, 2018 Research Fellow at Harvard Universitys center on media politics and public policy, sarah smarsh is a frequent speaker and commentator on economic inequality. Her most recent book, she come by it natural, dolly parton and he women who lived her song, is out now from simon schuster. The last person that i would like to introduce is Wayne Winkler. Wayne winkler is a descendent of can from Hancock County, tennessee, very near where im from, and past president of the heritage association. He he director of the public Radio Station wets fm and lives in johnson city, tennessee. His most recent book, beyond the sunset, the outdoor drama, 1969 to 1976, is out now. Please join me in welcoming all of our panelist and i believe first up we will hear from dr. Burton. Thank you very much. Its pleasure to be part of the festival this year and he an opportunity to introduce you to this book, voices worth listening, three women of appalachia. Published by the university of tennessee press. This book as the title suggests is the presentation ol the lives of three women of appalachia. Two white women, one black. One important feature of the become is that the lives are told by the women themselves in their own voices. Of interviews. The interviews are blended and crafted from their free speech to form unified and progressive monologues the monologues attempt to retain the integrity of each persons speech and voice. They the attempt also as much as possible to recreate and print the experience personally talking or listening to these people. Certain dedays are alter details are altered and thats in accordance with their wishes, so that they remain anonymous. In a way, these women are presented somewhat like characters in a play. Characters who speak directly to their audience, in their own language, without interruption and without detailed an analytical interpretation. An lick cat enter analytical interpretation of people or regions can be insightful and helpful, yet on the other hand they can overstate a single critical perception or they can restrict at best other perspectives. A literary case in point is the statement by the remarkable old vick actor and director sir Lawrence Olivier at the beginning of his film holiday pamlet. He say says is the tragedy of a man who cannot make up his mind. The statement does provide dramatic focus for the filmbut it is nevertheless a very restrictive commentary of one the most worlds most complex, dramatic person. Hamlet is of course a great deal more than a man who cannot make up his mind. The same point of overemphasis and restriction is relative to critical analysises of appalachians and of appalachia. However, to repeat, this book instead of being a critical analysis is a presentation of the lives of these the voices of these women themselves. And you the readers have the opportunity to respond to them in your own emotional and intellectual insights and as the title suggests the voices of these women are certainly worth listening. Furthermore, their voice are worth the listening for several reasons. If for no other reason they are worth listening to because they are the voices of really interesting, very complex human beings whose lives have been lived off the beaten path. Listening eii. Theyre people you dont meet every day or if you did meet them you couldnt guess the roads they have traveled. For me personally, when i heard the stories of the lives of these three women, i was really blown away. I could hardly believe what i was hearing. But they were true nevertheless. They were forthright, deeply personal revelations of real people, real human beings, struggling with amazing endurance against tremendous odds. Certainly some of those odds are their own making. Some of them, however, are odds over which they have had little or no control. But unfortunately for them, in the language of shakespeare, when sorrows come, they come not single spies but in battalions. Let me list for you just some of the sea of troubles they collectively confront. For example, various criminal circumstances which include homicide, insult, assault, and battery, theft, rape, attempted murder, drug addiction, felonies and imprisonment. Domestic problems. Parental dysfunction. Childhood pregnancy, loss of child custody. And multiple dysfunctional intimate relationships including physical and mental spousal abuse. Social problems. Childhood bullying and racial discrimination, and gender discrimination. Economic instability. Either starting from poverty or ending in poverty. Homelessness, joblessness, and insufficient Financial Support by family, friends, and our government. Besides all these slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, they have to bear arms against personal demons as well. Low selfesteem, irresponsibility, naivete, bizarre sexual involvement, despondency and dispair, leading even to attempted suicide. Its almost incredible the whips and thorns these women bear and with great fortitude. Certainly these women are not unique in their struggles. In fact, they are in part representative of a whole category of women across appalachia as well as across america. A whole sector of women who, like them, struggle greatly in lives off the beaten path. As the cover design of this book attempts to image, they exist across appalachia like a seam we have seen as we have driven through a cut in a mountain pass. These women are in part representatives but they are not simply stereotypes, not of hillbillies, coalminer are daughter, not of unemployed workers on welfare. They are not simply stereotypes of any group of southern appalachians or sometimes of any sector of appalachia. And i would be quick to add that any attempt to definitively label types or to define the essence of any group or sector of appalachia is very as complex as they both are, is a fools game. And in particular to this book, anyone attempting to define the essence of these women would be subject to reprove by each woman in the sentiment of hamlet, how unworthy a thing you make of me. You would pluck out the heart of my mystery. Even though these women are not simply sometimes of appalachians they are part of the diversity of appalachia. And to understand appalachia, one needs to listen to the diverse individuals of appalachia, and theres much music, much excellent voice, in the people of appalachia and certainly in the voices of the women presented in this book. I would like now to take the opportunity to read an abstract from the first novel, which is entitled some would call hear good old girl. Im not perfect. No one is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes. And i did a lot of things. There were times i was forced by my husband to have relationships with women along with him. And all that sort of thing. Sometimes wed bring home men, would have to, it was for him, not me. Its not fun when youre forced to do it. I would go interest the bathroom and cry. No one would believe the times ive ran out of the room just ball bawling my eyes out. I hated it. It was awful. I hated doing it because of diseases and stuff out there. I just dont think the lord that i just thank the lord i never got anything. That scared me to death. Ive kind of blocked out that part. I get so drunk i would have to go get so drunk, i mean plastered, to do that. So a lot of time its dont remember what happened or went on. But i was going to pretend. He just threatened me. If you dont do this youre going to regret it when you get home. It just hurts to see someone who truly love, make love with someone else. Why would they want to do if they truly loved you . You should be happy in your marriage. You shouldnt be sad. But i was sad. Very sad. And there were lots of things, sexualized, that were just literally its almost disgusting to discuss or talk about some of the things. It turns your stomach. And he forced me to do other weird things, like he would hold me down and take razor blades and cut himself and cut myself, and we would have to each each others blood. Yeah, it was crazy. And if i even brought up the thought of leaving him at that point, he would then to kill himself. It was horrible. When you care and love with somebody, you just dont like doing that stuff. It turned him on issue guess. I dont think it was fun and games. Its just that is what he wanted. Its his sex drive or whatever, and thats what he enjoys doing. Later on i came to find out, when he was traveling on the road, and i was sending him money to survive, because hoe said there werent d he said they werent making enough money to eat and stuff, that actually he was taking the money i was sending him for prostitutes, drugs, or whatever. And i was working two jobs. When you are in an abusive relationship, some people think you can just walk out of it but you cant. You see these tv shows and they say, if youre being abused or neglect, call this number and well help you. Its just not that simple. Especially if you love that person. Or if you care for that person and want to be there and help them. Its really hard to walk away from somebody. Its also hard to explain. Im a caring person. I try to care. And you dont want to do anything to hurt a person you really care but. Even though theyre hurting you. Even. I you give them leeway to straighten up and they wont. Its hard. That was the situation during the open marriage pretty much the rest of our being together. So off and on, for ten years of the 13 years married, but all that stuff wasnt constant. It was just every once in a while. Although i would have to say, no, a lot, and then he would get really mad. I just couldnt handle it. Im just not that kind of person. Thank you. Temperature thank you so much dr. Burton. Up next we have sarah smarsh and she is going to be sharing some of her work. Hi, everyone. Im so happy to be joining the southern book festival. Wish we are were install personment on this particular panel in case anybody is scratching their havents why a journalist from kansas is joining the discourse, i have written book put one of the most famous voices of appalachia, being dolly part to be and ill get to that question. First i want to say in case anyone joining read my first book heartland which is a hybrid of social critique and a bet of u. S. History on socioeconomic class, you might remember my grandmother, betty, who is the star of the book, im in her house right now in this working class neighborhood of wichita, and like right next door some good kansas home owners are reroofing their own house so if you hear a nail gun going off, it may be appropriate for my presentation because i tend to write about the working class and the work core of this country. My new become she come by it natural and thewoman who lived her song is from simon and shoes at simon schuster. Comes out officially on tuesday, and im excited to tell you a little bit about it. I mentioned my first book heartland. That if is that is in many ways obvious integration of the workbeen doing a journalist with my personal advantage as someone who grew up on a small wheat farm in southern kansas. A book about dolly parton you might ask why . And why would this be the followup. I think he most way to introduce the text is to give you a little context. Im not a celebrity writer. Dont cover Popular Culture so to speak. I write lawsuit class, and race, and ginger, and so on, and in 2016, you might remember that was an election year, that had some repercussions in at the country and quite a contentious time. A dawn of this polarized political moment were experiencing, and when every headline i saw about the place i come from, if you want to speak in general terms, my people, white for folks, every headline was, quite negative, and quite bleak, seemed to be about hate, bigotry, an aspect of that population, demographic that is certainly present but i happened to know as someone who has been very fortunate in my life as a First Generation College student who went on to study in the ivy league and be fortunate enough to intersection with rarefied space is knew that folks like that exist aft every rung of the class ladder, among white folks specifically so those headlines bugged me in a personal way, and i wrote a little bit of media criticism to that end as one of the few folks with that particular lens within national media. Now that same year, dolly parton had a new album out for the firm time in mean years and was touring, putting on huge arena shows for the first final a very long time. And i could see how the energy coalescing around that first of all all of a sudden my friend i police in rural kansas today and have spent most of my life in kansas but im most of my industry is centered in new york and ive got a lot of good friends there im seeing them on twitter, tweet bought dolly parton and im like what do you know but dolly parton . I knew she was a huge icon. I didnt understand the sent to which maybe none of us did until recent years the extent to which she is not just a creative generalus and now an icon of Popular Culture but an increased by unifying incredibly unifying figure in a very rare and notable way in a climate such as today. So, kind of intrigued by this and then started thinking and it occurred to me, you know what . That rural specifically rural white poor place i come from, theyre always headlines about the without of it and darned if dolly parton doesnt represent the best of it. Got me thinking, i theres a lot going on about gender, and Hillary Clinton as the democratic president ial candidate, and there was a lot of misogyny in the air that year, regardless of your politics. Thats an objective fact. And it occurred to me this is right behalf the dawn of me metoo movement, and i was thinking, you know, theres something but feminism right now that i feel like no one has articulated at least in a mainstream way, outside of academia, and that is what i would call working class feminism and that is what i was raised on, what i was raise by and what i moon by that its not theory, its not exclusive in its language, it not be even articulated or expressed in an overt way but it is rather lived organ my and it organically and it ode cured to me Country Music written by women i was race raised on was a formative feminist text of my life i was bringing to their year 2016 and all the ways that year was offending me at intersection of class and gender. I was working on heartland at the time, me memoir that came out letter and i was plenty busy. But a great magazine called no depression, Country Music fans you might follow it. A longtime publics specifically about roots music that had a New Fellowship to allow a writer to write in depth about the way in which that genre talks to or influences society and culture in a broader way. Thought, oh, boy, i want to write how dolly parton relates to felt system. I got the gig and i was writing what ultimately became this book, back at that moment several years ago, serialized in no depression magazine as a print only read so probably a fairly smallreadership and were in another election year, another fraught moment no less a divisive moment and no less problematic moment in terms of class and gender, and happily now that text is now in book form. So, im going to read you just a smidge from it, and i want to add by the way, while im finding my place here, i i ones raised as some sort of dolly parton super fan. I was kid in the 80s and for anyone who was cognizant in that decade she was just sort of woven into the fabric of Popular Culture. Yous see her on a talk show, her music was on the radio, she was starring in blockbuster movies. She actually i think kind of appropriately enough, if i took up the man tell of attempting to do justice to her life and career in this book, starred in her first hollywood role, nine to five, the year i was born, 1980. So, in some ways this book is really a gesture of gratitude to women of her generation, not least of whom being my grandmother, betty, who i mentioned a few minutes ago. I wrote about here struggles in heartland, and i sort of assert in this book, interest which as well and justifies a bit of memoir. Wanted to provide some context why i get this in a particular way, and that context has everything to do with my grandma who raised me and who was born just like five months apart from dolly parton and i kind of put forth in the back that in some ways she and women like her are the real Dolly Partons which the stories she built her career on, hard knocks and specifically hard luck lives as women. Dolly parton left her familys holler in east tennessee at age 18, so she had been rich and famous longer than she was poor in near pigeon forage, but she had continued to tell the stories of the sort of women that raised me and whom i believed owe a debt of gratitude in a way the feminist movement proper perhaps hasnt afforded. So, this is a section called leaving home. Partons career took off at the same moment that Womens Liberation Movement did. Providing a revealing contrast between feminism as political concept and feminism in embodied in the world. Like most women in poverty, parton knew little of the former but excelled at the latter. You wont get very far as poor women without believing youll are equal to men. The result of that belief is unlikely to be a leaning in, possibly sound advice from middle and up clear class women, claiming the spoil. A poor womans better solution is to turn around and walk away from a hopelessly patriarch cal situation she cannot possibly mend with her limited cultural capital. I tell as evidence the story of tolly parton quite brave departure from the port are wagner show when he was relative live new star with a fragile stake in Popular Culture. She left in 1974, president ial election year. The is a recuring theme, the speier play of figure like dolly and our political realities and the country was torn by political uprise examination tragedy. Young men urn from vat in caskets caskets and president john f. Kennedy had been assassinated a year prior. In 1994 autobiography, dolly, she recalled hearing news of kennedys death every ore boyfriends car radio on the way to perform. Quote i have loved john intend the way one ideal list recognizes another and loves hmm for that place they share. I dough know but politic but i knew things were wrong and unjust and that kennedy wanted to change them. Her boyfriend responded to the announcement by referring to kennedy with a racist epithet, basically. Relating to his advances on people of color. She prompt live dumped him. The Womens Liberation Movement hadnt yet reached fevered pitch. The National Organization for women didnt exist. Strict conformist generaller roles trapped females as wise mothers mothers mothers and second class citizens. When parton received extend off the step off the book the woman of her lot were to busy feeding hungry mouths, some further isolated from discourse in a preinternet world place to read such literature. Written in form of english they didnt speak anyway. The reason i end up writing stuff like this is what i tell folks sometimes when i give talks, i speak two versions of english, country and fancy. And country is my first tongue, and i think that parton has quite intentionally stayed true to that voice, regardless of what space she is moving through, regardless whether she is supposed to feel ashamed and thats very strategic and intentional and has work out well for her, of course, parton was living feminism without reading. I leave home alone as a women with professional aspirations and no financial means demonstrated she wanted better life and thought she deserve end but no model exited. The place where she pursued that life, the recording capital of Country Music, couldnt have been a more harrowing gauntlet for a woman. Even if america had by then but a fuel small cracks in he ceiling that held women down, nashville was squarely situated under the thickest glass. And ill leave it there look forward to questions at the end. Hi, thank you so much, sarah. So, i wanted to remind everybody, sarahs smarsh is the author of she come by it natural dolly parton and the women who lived her songs, out tuesday from scribner. We have already heard from dr. Thomas burton. He is the author of voices worth listening, three women of appalachia from University Press and as our final speaker we are going to hear from Wayne Winkler who i the author of beyond the sunset, the melungeon outdoor drama, 1969 to 1976, out now from mercer University Press, as a little bit of a tidbit, wayne and i are actually distantly related oomph adescend scent of a collins, so were cousins. Good to have you here, cuz. I would like to thank you for having me here at the southern festival of books. A real honor and thank you very much for inviting me. People may be wondering who the melungeons are. Theyre not me moe wellknown group of people in the world but they are a group of mixed race people who were first documented in northeast tennessee, southeast virginia region in the beginning of in the 19th century and the 1990s, as the internet became more widely accessibility to ordinary people, the melungeons underwent a resurrection of interest, main hill through the work of dr. Brent kennedy who wrote a book entitled the mentales, a proud the melungeons, proud people and i worked with dr. Kent and unfortunately he passed away about the weeks ago, so i kind of want to dedicate a bit of this to him. The reason the melungeons really became wellknown is i think the topic of the book and its what i wanted to write pout because it wasnt a really he wellknown episode in history. It was a very brief run for this particular outdoor drama, just from 1969 to 1976 but it represented a lot and only part of that was representing the melungeons and their image to the world. A lot of it had to do with trying to make Hancock County a more viable place to live, and i would like to read just a little bit of the Second Chapter which i think kind of sifts up the situation pretty well. All Charlie Turner wanted was a road, not even a new road, just a fix up the one they had. Was that too much to ask . Charles turner whats mayor of sneadville, the county seat of Hancock County and a tiny up to wedged between the river and newmans ridge. The your was surrounded by a low wall where men sit, rolled signature fred, goes sipped and watched the traffic along main street. The other government building was the u. S. Post office, red brick building a couple of blacks east of the courthouse on main street and the Hancock County jail, 100yearold or two story wooden structure a block west and south of the courthouse on jail street. An Elementary School and local within the town limits. Since taking office in 1961, turner had been trying get the state or the federal government or somebody to improve the roads of morristown. Morristown was only 23miles from sneadville but the trim from sneadville to morris town was mostly long state highway 31. Itself rand we sneadville and morris pureeing. At morrisburg you had to turn right to go west on u. S. 11w and a left turn led south on u. S. 25e smore his town. Morristown was where the jobs were. Most of the people at Hancock County who worked at a job, that is made a living by means other than farming, held jobs in morristown, working in one of the small factories, lumber yard or in one of the other mostly blue collar jobs. Morris town had just over 20,000 people so the 19,000 or so living in surrounding hamlin county. 874 people lived in cincinnativille. 6,009 ph 47 pipe in all of Hancock County. Without morris town there we about no work for the people of Hancock County. The problem was the road. Highway 31 went over the mountain which was technically a long ridge with several summits. The people who drove highway 31 everyday knew every twist and turn of the road. In good weather no problem negotiating the route day or night. But a half inch of know changed the situation considerably. Snow didnt fall often in northeast testifies testifies but you could count on at least three or four good snows in winter and the mountain was high enough that snow stuck on the road near the top even. I itself didnt stick down below. If the road became icy or slick from heavy rains the mountain was a forbidding october stack kell to even the most experienced drives and could guarantee the last few moments of your live would be exciting indeed. Because of the mountain and state highway 31 priors in morris town were reluck dont to hire pipe from sneadville are so hand dock county. They were good workers good, people, but if the weather turned bad even justing a bit bad most of the good people arent going to risk the drive to show up at work. A good snow could keep them away from work for a week maybe more, deciding on when the state road crews got 31 clear enough to drive. It helped if you told a prospective employer if if you got the job would would move to morris town but wasnt only jobs that drew people out 0 hand hock county, living in morris town you could shop for in a real super are market. I stead of tiny store go to a movie, current movie, not the likes at the sneadville theater. Tire you wife a nice restaurant and your kids could go to a Better School that could pay for better teachers and give your kid a better chance of learning a traits 0 are going to college in morris town you could make a better life for yourselves and your family. Charlie turner was well aasiad with the desire move swopped with more opportunity. Years later he would tell a reporter from up north any whole High School Grad weight class left but i said i will be david if do that. Ill run for mayor and see what i do. He taught in a oneroom school house in knew. s ridge, and letter opened a drug store. I want a pharmacist but he still did well. One bit of drug story business was developing photographs help was a skilled photographer anded a won several awards he rap for mayor, hand county county was almost tote live republican but charlie was a democrat and the only democrat in his family. Still he bon he elect and the one after that and the one after that. Charlie turner stayed in sneadville on his own terms and made it work but he knew how unusual his decision was. There was a saying among former hap county county rests a lot of smart people come out of Hancock County and the smarter they are the quicker they come out. Most people are smart and ambitious as charlie turn e. Got out of of Hancock County sooner or alert. Folks who left werent really gone. They still connected. The ones no lived in morristown referred to Hancock County as overhome as in are you going over home this weekend . Mama and daddy still lively on the old family farm, brothers and sisters and cousins expends were over home and you could be there necessary less than an hour. Some who moved to morristown were still very involved in life, some still tapeds the church where they had gone to sunday school and been baptized. Some even involved in the hack county government. When folks move to morristown the reduced the population and he tax base of the county some maded harder to provide serviceses. Mean people moved further away than morristown. A whole colony of transplanted hack live in bald more drawn away in world war ii by good paying jobs at shipyards and defense planted. Even more moved north to indiana, ohio, and michigan, taking factory jobs with union paychecks, making more moan that was possible even in morristown. Still came home sometimes, maybe two or three times a year when the kids got a vacation from school. They would load up the family car and head south down home. Interstate 75. The hillbilly highway, schliewely being build across kentucky and nearly every the transplanted hack county countyists came home the trip was made an fourlane divide road. They different. Disattitudes some that stopped going to church or going a different kind of church from the win theyd grown up in. They had become more cosmo toll tan and he folks at home fell they transplants looked down only them. The kids had Midwestern Agency sents and had tales of life in the big city, and as time went on and the kid got older the most families may the tried back home less often and pretty soon theyd come back home only for funerals that werent part of the yoke anymore. They were gone. By 1969, Hancock County had fewer people than it had in 1869. The population had peaked in 19 40. 11,231 souls in the county. The 1960 census counted only 7,7560. Pop population lost of 31 understand in 20 years. Since 1960 charlie guessed at least a thousand more had left the county. The birth rate couldnt keep up with the number of people leaving for better job opportunities. As mayor the sneedville he had helped attract to smu jobs to the county seat. The voteert has almost napoli approved a bond issue to develop an industrial park. Albert moore helped the county land a grant from the federal Economic Administration that would bring as many as 135 new jobs into the county. Eventually. It proving highway 31 was crucial. That road was lifeline for Hancock County. People could commute to work in morristown and remain in Hancock County. There were only really for waynes in and out of the county, well, five i unit state away 66 but highway 33 was the important one. None of these highways were as port to the county as state highway 31. And try as he might Charlie Turner had not been able to get that road improved. Now he could see a chance. If to one would build a road poor foam gelling out of sneadville. May would build a road for people coming in. Turn etch had his doubted in idea of an outdoor drama. The two professors from the college studied the countys Economic Situation and told county lead erred their best chance of Economic Development was tourism ask the best chance of developing tourism was with an outdoor drama. Outdoor dramas were popular and trached tourists even to small towns. Serve good food, very good food as a matter fact. The interior was not much bette better. In the town motel just five little rooms over the beauty parlor on main street. Up to now that have been plenty, will remedy people came needing a hotel room. With the tourist can the restaurants and motels might follow. That was the hope anyway. Charlie and the other leaders in Hancock County were counting on the subject is a way to attract tourists but as the subject of the play theyd been so controversial. There were the topic people in Hancock County were used to talking about. Even the word bludgeoned was not spoken in public and no one in the county wanted to be identified. Everyone had been upset for the saturday evening post article that came out and it was the dirty little secret. Times were changing though and people are starting to see them in a different light spray those articles fight louise davis of the National Tennessee and have not been as negative as a first article. Other more or less positive articles and publish in various newspapers and magazines for that new novel by jesse stuart was very sympathetic, people were curious and as the reverent connor pointed out of Hancock County did not take advantage of that curiosity some other place waiting would reap the benefits. The Hancock County is best shot at attracting tourists and the people were going to give it a try. Even partly anyone in the county admitted to it. Is thursday july 3 covid 1969 don, Charlie Turner had a lot of work to do. Theres going to be a lot of Independence Day weekend pray for the first time tourists were going to arrive in sneetches bill, tennessee. Thank you very much. Thank you so much, and as a reminder 1969 to 1976, out from the University Press. Alright we have about eight minutes left to answer any questions that you all may have for our panelists. So if you would like to, please join us in either the app or on our Facebook Live stream one of our southern heat festival of books Staff Members will be monitoring for any questions that you may have. I guess i will start us off, while we are waiting for people to join us, all of you spoke a little bit about, and i wrote this down from doctor burton, but one of the women in his book saids really hard walk away from a person. And i think that is kind of a conversation we are having especially in these rural places now about walking away from people or places or Economic Opportunities infamously mr. Jd vance said in his book hillbilly elegy that these Rural Regions were experiencing brain drain. So could you talk a little bit about your research or your writing has uncovered about people moving away from these communities . Speech it well, the person go ahead. Is going to say about a year ago i wrote an opinion peace for the New York Times headline for which has included blame gains i might be equipped to comment on this briefly. You are the terms of quantitative measures about which direction the population is growing in the urban divide has more shades than two. But numbers are starting to show that some of these communities that are patently referred to as dying or dwindling are actually gaining in some interesting ways. A lot of it has with racial demographic shifts. Places like western kansas with as an industrial meatpacking industry are seeing large increases in hispanic but even apart from race, i have seen a sort of trend, a return if you will, Wendell Berry the great kentucky writer referred to these folks as home covers. Actually i think thats coined by a kansan named wes jackson who is a friend of wendells. This is something thus far and a qualitative experience for those who live in rural areas are resisting the inerrant narrative i know people who could if they chose to live in new york they are specifically returning to places they used to live something shifting in the culture about what is or isnt cool. Whatevers tenable economically is another story which is getting broadband in places and so on. It might not surprise you off you read my writing to know that i disagree with jd vance on most things. Host i was going to address that situation. Your question in a way about moving out is not as appropriate as the area i was talking about or these women were from. In central appalachia. They are a part of these central pockets of poverty. Now one of the women, her life began in poverty. She started out when she was born her mother was living in various places. And one of them was with a friend. Finally they got a place of their own those infested with rats. She thought it was horrible and she hated it. Finally they got into the project and it was a great place for her. She had a clean house, clean room and so forth. Instead of moving out some place to find a better place, she started working as a very young person. She worked every summer for example when she was in high school. Then in Senior High School she worked even from 3 00 oclock at night until 11 00 oclock and then went to school the next da day. And cap a 3. 5 average. Its kind of a success story. She goes ahead and works even though her boyfriend has become her husband is a drug addict for 14 years or so she gets a job she think she will go to a college a business college. She got a degree and medical assistantship. And worked there. She went from there to go to the university and got a University Degree and became a nurse. Then, she is still working as a nurse without leaving. The first one i read from she was a hard worker. She had problems of transportation getting to work. And the situation was not good for her. She cannot keep a job because she couldnt get to it. And she got her son to get her transportation and so forth. Finally she did move out, went to Virginia Beach i believe. So it is a different situation. In the circumstances of the women i was talking about. The women who are living these lives very difficult out of the mainstream. Its not within a povertystricken place that they are trying to get away from. Host thank you very much doctor burton. We have about a minute left so i would once again like to remind you guys that the link to purchase these books, voices worth listening to, three women and appalachia, three limit of appalachia comments worth listing. She come by at natural, dolly parton women who lived her song songs. And be on the sunset of outdoor dramas. The links to purchase those are in our chat. And as a reminder, please donate to humanities tennessee. Trimming a free event. Thank you also much for joining me. Thank you very much. We met michael this popup book is designed by artist carol walker. Depicts a slave to her home country in the complication. This is a small example of what she is known for eating the book in our special exhibition f means