Im David Rubenstein coming from the library of congress, the Jefferson Building and its part of our National Book festival and have a pleasure of interviewing richard hoss who is the president of a foreign relation and ive written a new eczema book called the world a brief introduction by richard hoss, thank you very much for coming today. Great to be with you. For those of you that dont know your background, i want to talk a little bit about the bo book, you are native of new york and went to college in ohio and became a Rhodes Scholar, what did you do to become a Rhodes Scholar and for those of you who are not aware there is only 32 people picked every year in the Rhodes Scholar and youre one of the top 32 students, what did you do to be one of the top 32 students when you graduated. My children would claim it was an administrative error i did nothing to confuse the scholarship, i could also answer i was one of 32 people who peaked young and peaked at the right time, my own guess i had a rather unconventional background, i spent the year in the middle east traveling around, doing archaeology, studying languages a mystery, i wrote a column for the campus newspaper, i took all my courses credit no entry, i was a religion in the middle Eastern Studies major, i think you probably got it because no expectations of getting it, i was relaxed as anyone could be in the interview and i simply stood out from the others because i was not a 4. 0 student. He went to oxford and got a phd and you came back and then i think he taught at harvard for a while. You might call classic in and out her career, i worked on the hill, the pentagon, the state department, the white house and so forth and in between i have been teaching at universities, it is the kind of career you could only have of the United States, for every other country forces you to choose a path, one of the many great things about this country you never really have to decide what you want to do when you grow up. You had two important positions of the government that im aware of, during the bush 41 a administration you were in charge of the middle east among the National Security Council Staff and later in the bush 43 administration under colin powell secretary of state you were under secretary and the ambassador as well, is not right. I was in charge of the policy Planning Plus i had a separate hat where i was ambassador and did such things, i was the u. S. On void Peace Process and after 9 11 i was put in charge of putting together the future of afghanistan. That is a lot to do and after all that was done, you then became the president of the council on Foreign Relations in organizations that i am familiar with as well but can you tell us what you do at the foreign relation, what is it for people that are not members. Is about 100 years old, we can celebrate in 2021, were hybrid organization, National Membership organization and have about 5000 members, were a research organization, we have 75 80 and parttime scholars essentially a think tank, we published Foreign Affairs magazine, the leading journal and we have several we do all sorts of educational activities. Not just for members but people who need to be in the ford policy debate, religious and congregational leaders, mayors, governors, journalist scattered around the country. The whole idea is to broaden participation in the debates. And we are trying to be a resource for as Many Americans and others around the world that we can. Sue and so historically it was in new york of the Foreign Policy establishment. Is it still that . Switch it i dont really think there is a Foreign Policy establishment anymore. With vietnam the establishment splits for the countries changed demographically in every way, geographically the center of gravity is change. Think the council has evolved with that. We are probably now at least the third live a significant minority representation obviously were trying to grow that to reflect what america has become. So again there is a wide representation of views. We do not take institutional positions we do not take governmental money. We are fully independent we are fully nonpartisan. So think anything you would find in america youd find the council of Foreign Relations. So this is your 15th book of five got it right is that right . The 15th book. Certain norm of the people with your kind of background write books they say this is what the policy should be here or here is how great i was in this area. And heres what i did is only the president wouldve listened to me the country wouldve been better off to back written those. Select this is different. This is a brief introduction why do we need an introduction to the world . What did you try to accomplish with this book . Youve got it right this is very different for me. It was another insider book which is an argument which those are important books i do not want to put it down, i do it others do it. I decided to write something the british recall a primer american socalled perimeter but a foundational book. Heres why the world matters heres why the world operates for heres the basic history you need to know. Isnt introduction to the world of regions. Heres how to understand the play sick global challenges of our times where this is how the world works. The reason im doing it is the world is so important that the gap between that and objective importance to most people in this country and elsewhere know about the world is a norm us. And you could graduate from virtually any university in this country including the elite universities. And if you navigate your course requirements the way you want, you can be effectively illiterate about the world when you leave the campus. You can watch the programs on the networks again you not going to be any wiser about the world. Im struck again about how important the world is. The votes americans are to cast this november we are going to choose an individual was owing to have more power and more influence over the world than anyone else. Yet very few americans are going be thinking about Foreign Policy or International Relations when they move. Very few americans will have the background to make informed judgments about the policy positions of either donald trump or joe biden. Sue and the council spent a fair amount of time trying to educate students on foreignpolicy and mass security matters. Is that because you think students are not getting the train and they should get or the education they should be getting in this area . The answer is exactly buried most high schools cant offer they just simply do not have the resources teachers do not have the experience. This is gotten crowded out by basic skills. And on College Campuses virtually every two and Fouryear College or University Offers courses in the world. But virtually none requires it for the whole idea of a core curriculum is increasingly a relic. Again, what i wanted to do is provide something that did not assume background. Its not written necessarily for people who decide to major or focus in this area. But the person the young man who in some ways kindles my interest in this book was a Computer Science major. And i was struck he was going to leave sanford and the unexposed to this world theres going to so fundamentally affect his life rethink about david anyone in college now, he or she is essentially going to live a life that will tracker paralleled the 21st century. Got to know it and think where we are part reliving with covid19, we went through 911. Climate change is a daily reality, a phenomenon. So they world matters. Globalization to reality is not a choice. But how we respond to it that is the choice. My interest again is to make sure the nature of that response if it is a choice becomes an informed choice. So once their last book was a book made into an hbo documentary. So, that book was about the complications of the world. This book is not going to be made into a documentary as well . Guest we are discussing it. I think theres a good chance it will be. Again the last book, a world in disarray headed argument thanks the world was beginning to unravel. I never thought id be considered an optimist because things have gotten worse that i anticipated three and a half or four years ago. Again this documentary assuming it happens will be in some ways more consistent with being a primer. You take three, four, five issues and really give people a better understanding of why they matter, what kind of decisions need to be made, what are the consequences and so forth right. Since world war ii, Foreign Policy decisions made by the United States what would you say are the two or three best Foreign Policy decisions made by the unites States Government in the last 50 or 60 years ago it may be the two or three at worst. Think many of them are made right after world war ii. Dean atchison, truman secretary of state immodestly titled his memoir present at the creation. Actually turned out to be pretty fair. You had the Marshall Plan you had nato and the alliance syste system, you had the standing up of all the institutions, the multilateral institutions around the world. Yet the doctrine of containment that really was four decades of cold war. So thanks so many of the policies that were developed and then followed the beginning of the Truman Administration and were largely embraced by all of truman successors. I think any one of those could be on the list of really good policies. Also i would point out some of the things done by my former boss president bush 41, thought the way he handled the depth handling of the end of the cold war a peaceful end with a unified germany and nato with a rather extraordinary accomplishment. I also the way he marshaled the world to resist the iraqi in invasion and conquest of kuwait was a textbook case of how multilateralism could succeed in a modern world. You asked me the worst policy, but they all have in common is they were wars of choice. They were not wars we had to fight. They were wars we chose to. Vietnam would clearly be on the list. The 2003 iraq would be on the list. And korea would be on the list. Not the sense of the original resistance with the korean invasion of the south. But rather the fateful decision by truman and mccarthy, it was probably the worst decision of trumans presidency should go north of the 38th parallel untried or unify the entire peninsula by force. Something that not only failed that brought in hundreds of thousands of shut chinese troops and tens of thousands of americans died in the process. Host s if you look back on the people have been secretary of state or of defense or National Security advisor other advising National Security policy maker last 50 or 60 years, who would you say would be the rope meters are stars, people you admire the most respect the few i would mention, i mention atchison and marshaled the initial postwar they were real joints for think Henry Kissinger was a great scholar, practitioner of the modern era. I think more recently you have to say jim baker was extraordinarily effective given his political skills as negotiating skills the tightness of his relationship as well with the president. Sue and National Security advisor . Sweetie ive got the consensus i was lucky to work with brent for four years but thats a critical job weve got to bounce two very different roles. You got to be a dispenser of due process, an honest broker. Someone to make sure the president is well served, all decisions are brought to him. There is discipline decisionmaking discipline decisionmaking grade that is what happened. And secondly got to be an counselor or an advisor to the president. Often that secondhand gets in the way the first. So some people have been good at one or the other part of the job. Brent i think was better than anyone in both dimensions of the job. We went to whoever the next president of the United States is, lets add that person on january 22 of his as im going to novel parties tonight but i have an hour or so. Too really get up to speed on some issues but i would like your advice, richard on how to deal the Biggest Challenges im going to face in each of these areas. Lets quickly go through these areas. So the next president said what is the biggest challenge and buy to have the next year or two in europe, would you say the Biggest Challenges in europe . The Biggest Challenges to repair americas rely alliances. To repair with nato partners. If we do that that gives us a basis for dealing with European Security issues like russia and also with global issues. I was a big priority in europe is to repair the nato alliance, to rebuild trust. To reestablish consultations between the United States and its most important allies. Sue eck alright suppose the president s as well was the biggest challenge im going to face the middle east . Which of course includes lots of different areas by now. Give one or two challenges you think the president ial were about the middle east . Speech is an extraordinary range of challenges. I think the most depressing one is iran. Its beginning to move out of the confines of the 2015 nuclear agreement. Its not a status quo power. So ive basically say negotiating a followon agreement with iran to extend the limits on its nuclear activities. I put that the top of the heat. That i think about how to push back against certain iranian efforts around the region. But theres any number of failed states. Yemen and libya, thats a potential failed state. So that middle east comment was, is, and will be the least stable least successful part of the world. So i to the president about, what can we do without trying to do too much . Were not going to transform the region. We are not bringing peace between israeli and palestinians anytime soon. We do not want to take all the exigent out of the room of american Foreign Policy. We also do not want to under reach or do too little. Its a nuanced conversation. I would basically say what is the minimal smart approach to the middle east that avoids the two extremes of too much or too little . Of the president say whats my biggest challenge in africa about you say . In challenges one of governance. Too many of the countries of africa simply cant run their own countries well. They are corrupt and so forth. I think the longerterm challenges impart climate chang change. Even horribly demography. Africa is the one part of the world that slated to have an enormous population. And the child shall be with that use a bold how do you find employment for all those people . How do you take this population increase which in principle could be an asset. And howdy prevented from being a liability . That is a longterm program to think about good governance, education, health to essentially provide a pathway for africa to employ literally 1 billion additional people we are going to see over the next couple of decades. Okay the biggest challenge in asia minus china, will talk about china separately but if you include india, Southeast Asia and northern asia, we think the president has to face . Speech apart from china to think about me. North korea per the new president is going to inherit a north korea growing a growing missile arsenal. What you do about that question with the others the India Pakistan relationship on one hand how to build the better relationship with india which will soon overtake china as the world most populous country. But also how do you try to reduce the odds that india and pakistan go to war . Because when i look around the world if i look were Nuclear Weapons might be used, and afraid i would probably put that at the top of the list. Obviously that needs to be prevented. In china . Look, that is zero structural challenge of our time. How do we manage this relationship so we pushed back where we must but we do not preclude cooperation which includes our interest on Climate Change or afghanistan or improving the machinery of global health. I think that probably make that were the two or three great priorities of american Foreign Policy. Have a real strategic conversation with china to try to establish some rules of the road that both of us could live with. I would put that right up there, also working more closely with our allies which by the way would help us i think lisa v china. And try to narrow the gap between global challenges and international responses. In this time of the year you talk about the americas wasilla south america would you say the biggest challenge the american is going to face and south america customers including mexico its a prospective think in the short run the biggest probably related to covid19. South america stunningly unsuccessful. In dealing with it. But once we get past that point, almost like africa. The real challenges governance. Im not worried that chile, argentina, brazil going to go to war. Its not geopolitics its politics, politics. How do we deal with corruption how do we do of governments that can provide security to their own people where you have gangs and drug cartels and so forth. I think it is a hard challenge for Foreign Policy were better at dealing with the classic challenges of war between states in a much tougher problem trying to promote stability within countries. But that really is the challenge of mexico. Challenge of brazil, challenge of other countries in the regio region. Sue unsuccessfully chime in Henry Kissinger was both National Security advisor secretary state simultaneous it is already been a dispute the presence is how can i resolve that without giving one person both jobs, what would you say is a waylaid maker Foreign Policy decisionmaking process much smoother than it has been . Again it worked best under bush 41. And in some ways the president made it clear he would not stand for. President s get the Foreign Policy deserve. Not always the when they need. So i would essentially make it clear that the National Security council is the venue for decisionmaking. No end runs, no personal fiefdoms and so forth. Baz get the secretary of state in the National Security advisor and the secretary of defense a few others possible, secretary of the treasury, the intelligent chiefs, get them in the room is a this is how its going to be. Everyone will have their day in court but i do not want to have leaks, i do not want back fighting prettify sense youre putting your personal your agencys interests ahead of mine, head of the administration youre going to be history. I think a zerotolerance for the bureaucratic game would be really important thing to establish from the getgo. Steve went to someone is watching them and say okay this is a man who knows Foreign Policy inside and out. Why should i comment average citizen United States care about Foreign Policy . Its overseas emirate about my job my family. Why should the average american really care about Foreign Policy . Thats a great question but a lot of americans echo what you said but theres two things their job their family. Once again the world can be a tremendous threat to your health or your physical security. We are seeing it was covid19 it began in china, it did not stay there. By the way this is not going to be the last infectious pandemic of our lifetime. We saw with 9911. We see with Climate Change. Cliff what happens out there does not stay there. The wards world is not las vegas nothing stays there. So like it or not the world is going to matter. In those real threats or jobs. More than 10 million americans depend on export related jobs. So again the world is an important source of our economic strength. I think you get into issues of war and peace, or cyber related issues and so forth. I think in very real ways you can make it clear that the National Security of the United States the strength of our democracies are economy, the fizzle security it here at home is directly affected by what happens in the world. I think of something that president s and secretaries of state have to spend time explaining. I do think we need more in the way of fireside chats and the president to build american understanding about the world. I think therefore youd have more support for Foreign Policy. I was still secretaries of state when they asked me you spent most your time dealing with the rest the world that spend at least a day a month giving a speech at this or that campus or this or that rotary club to explain to americans why the world matters to us. And why what we do in the world are dont do in the world has a tremendous impact on others and ultimately ourselves. I think its important to come back where we began the conversation. Most americans do not study this. If they did study if they forgot it. So i dont think any president or secretary of state can take for granted that people understand the connection of the United States to the world or why the world matters to us or why we matter to the world. You cant take it for granted. Youve got to be out there be something of an educator paired statement as i mentioned earlier youve written 15 books youve served in the government think you been the president for 18 years or something i felt very impressive. We are also on a morning cable show called morning joe. Have you found more people find out what you think because of that show them because of all the books youve written . Are you more recognize in the streets of new york by that show than all of your books . [laughter] there is more than a little truth to what you say. It is a mixed blessing. You go through an entire career, havoc simple entire career in government subsequently in business and is probably people who stop you know and recognize your face your name not because of any of that but because of the interviews you do on television. So either benefit or suffer from a little bit with that myself its just the measured the book festivals American Ingenuity. As you look at american foreignpolicy code you described that as being part of American Ingenuity over the years . Speech of the way to answer those nothing about history thats inevitable. Ultimately history is a class or intersection of ideas and people. And things have turned out wellin american Foreign Policy when people come up with the big ideas. We talk about the creativity for a lot of the people around president truman who essentially set the Foundation Stones for order in the world that has lasted for the best part of three quarters of the century now any something just as creative. We are three decades after the cold war. Quite honestly not been up to the test. We squandered a lot of the inheritance weve had. This is a moment that calls for American Ingenuity to design and order. Design a world that takes into account the fact we not only have to deal with the traditional challenges of Foreign Policy, competition and the like. But a set of global issues like disease like Climate Change like terrorism is like a proliferation, like the misuse of cyberspace. We simply do not have the machinery and place. We do not have the rules in place to deal with those. This needs to be the second grade creative moment of american Foreign Policy. Theres ever a moment for ingenuity, this is it. Final question richard. The very serious about it. If someones watching may say i want to be like richard haas i want to be a Foreign Policy specialist. What is the appeal of a career in that . And do you have any regrets in your decision as a young man you decided to go into foreignpolicy and this is your life . And why do you enjoy being in Foreign Policy . Guest i do not have any regrets at all. Feel extremely fortunate. The issues you grapple with our batch is interesting to also as difficult as. If you are lucky you could have the chance to observe history close up. If you are really lucky and i have been at times, you can help make history to participate in it. What an opportunity to be involved in things that truly matter, stakes are big, you are working with talented people. What you say or write what you dont say or dont write can have consequences. Its bigger than you. What could be ultimately more satisfying, more important than that . For me it was always going to be a life in public policy. When i came up eight in the late 60s and 70s, the big issues were foreignpolicy issues. Perhaps if i wouldve been five or ten years older with the Civil Rights Movement was at its peak i wouldve been more interested in domestic issues. Perhaps if i would have been five or ten years younger wouldve been something else. But when i came of age and member not just the vietnam debate but i was a graduate school watching was going on with the United States and the soviet union. That to me was the big stuff of my time. Of coming of age. It was pretty clear this to be the direction i would go in. I would say now its so interesting is the issues the world is grappling with it so much more fundamental mode we dealt with during the cold war. So much of that was said look up every morning you know where the chess pieces were. You are dealing with really abstract issues of arms control. Now, these are first order questions. The nature of the u. S. China relationship. How were going to deal with Climate Change or pandemics. Can you persuade americans the world matters we ought to have an active role in it . This is first order stuff. This is historical stuff. I actually tell young people now will be marching time than ever to make the decision to get involved with this. At a minimum as a citizen. But also potentially as a career perspective so richard on if i should tell people this envoy spent some time in the counseling Foreign Relations policy and a something about foreign relation policy i read your book and learned a lot. Animal from sosa brag about that or not brag about that. I thought i knew a lot but i read this book and i learned a lot. So i dont know if im supposed to say didnt need to read this but actually did help me. I think for people he dont have much of a foreignpolicy background they will have a lot out of it. Even if you have a foreignpolicy background you are going to learn a lot in this. How long to take you to write this . Pure miami of a professor ahead i said how long to take you to prepare that lecture and he looked at his watch and he said about 30 years in 30 minutes. And to some extents that was my reaction to this relationship with this book. The actual writing may be took me only a year. But in many ways it forced me to it go back and call upon things either experienced or read or thought about for decades. If it makes you feel the better, david island things about this book. Ive been doing this 40 years fulltime. Yet we are forced to write something thats a perimeter, an introduction you cannot use shorthand, you cannot assume things. You cant gloss over things. Youve got to be explicit. And it forced me to it a level of detail. It also understanding to strip away all the things i didnt quite get. Some of the economic chapter so i learned a lot as well. So i actually try to write the book in a way that would be good for people who do this fulltime. But at the same time be helpful for people who this might be the first or only book they would read on the subject respect thank you very much for educating me about the world in this book. Thank you for being here today. Thanks for having me. s secular actually current best selling books according to newsmax. Topping the list is the essential cilia a collection of the Late Supreme Court justice writings by jeffrey set that is followed by journalists about the south and where i come from. In sicily 43 author James Hollinger members allied invasion of italy during world war ii. After that the late author when should room has the political lies of Alexander Hamilton Thomas Jefferson and john adams and the patriots and repping up our look at some of the bestselling books according to newsmax is the sentinel, the latest in author lee child fictional series. Some these authors have appeared on book tv and you can watch the events on my netbook tv. Org. During a Virtual Event hosted by the Cato Institute in washington, d. C. Political commentator pj or work discusses views on libertarianism and american politics. Heres a portion of the program. Every time you ask a government to do something, however lovely that thing seems to be, you are asking them to do it while a gun is pointed to the head of the people who are going to pay for the things the government does. So i think one should always ask oneself which i shoot my mother when i hold my mother at gunpoint must not go so far as to shoot her. What i hold my mother at gunpoint in order to accomplish wouldve asked the government to accomplish . We are going to hold my mother at gunpoint to pay by 95. I personally think that some of it could be privately done without any danger to my mom. Bless her heart she is no longer with us. But what i hold my mom at gunpoint to save assuming overrun by not cease . Yes i might. That would be an extremely bad thing. My hope mom and gumption for the but not to pay i95 or to deliver a package to my po box church. Pgo works book is a cry from the new middle visit the website booktv. Org and type the authors name or book title into the search box. To the of the program. Good evening thank you for joining us for the program today. My name is gavin im the director of programs, exhibitions and partnerships for the massachusetts Historical Society. Before i begin the program on extend a special welcome to anyone who might be attending Virtual Program for the first time. If youre not filming with mhs was the oldest Historical Society in america in a been collecting preserving collecting and preserving our history since 1971. Have an amazing collection of close to 14 million manuscript pages and putting papers of three of the first six u. S. President s. In these days of social distancing we take into hosting virtualnt