Hello welcome to the Atlanta History Center for the author talk series and your post tonight i and talking with Claudio Saunt his book on were the republic. You can purchase the book directly from the link in the chat on your screen. Please let your questions on the q a feature at the bottom of your screen and i will try to get to as many as time allows. Professor of American History code director for ritual history associate director at university of georgia and three previous books a native American History. Rest of the revolution, black white and indian and a new order of things. Thank you to the atlanta history sent on center for sponsoring this event. So many histories at the explosive of the negative ability. You cover a lot the political and economic motivation. And two thirds of what became mississippi and its not just how much land it was the most valuable Agricultural Land in the world at the time. And removal is part of the southern story but the indian people in the north as well for by the early 19th century. You do cover a number of other tribes. So what type of autonomy did they have in the south . There with a series the court cases that they could not solve their lands to a foreign power to france but they were sovereign people with elections may have competition in the early 19th century. Which is the focus of the book the prevailing us policy toward indians what is the overview without approach and with the indian policy relative to the removal act and it was ethnocentric and to teach them english into those christians and to make them fun in the same way they push back and strategically to make their way in the shadow of the new republic. That was a game changer in that policy and he ran and as presented as a humanitarian solution so what evidence did proponents have for this . And i should preface this by saying at the outset they have been dispossessed of their lands and within the and then they lost thousands of acres of their land. And there was no formal consistent federal policy. But to get this actor this piece of legislation to find the allies in the north they could not say simply and as a congressman cared about native people if you care about the welfare in the future then you would support this policy. So that evidence which they presented in the population was diminishing and a significant decrease of the population had occurred. And they knew that the population had diminished and that demography are the best evidence and it shows in the middle of 19th century and that they couldnt get the message out. And then to say because we may be small in number but we are going population. And if those that were diplomats to go against indian removal, it is well known was a signature policy. But was new to me where the for and against expulsion. There was vigorous opposition to indian removal. Who was aligned in that opposition and how organized president that was written as the envision asked there were a number of people that wanted to cut their losses. That this wasnt a just policy necessarily but given the tremendous pressure they were on and the fact state governments and Foreign Governments were not protecting them in any way. And encouraging squatters to steal the land and property. There are practical reasons why they wanted to stay and they wanted to stay there. The most current opposition we did find allies among missionaries who lived among them and and also the church based groups in the north and this is the single most controversial issue to come before the republic and up to that date it had the most mathematician campaign of thousands of americans that men and women because they were not to be appropriate participants in the process. And then to be deeply critical petition to congress for the people to stay in their homeland. So the papers were condemning the hypocrisy. You quote a writer from the georgia journal to say to make citizens negroes will be next. And this is a critical part of your analysis of the expulsion of natives and the expansion of slavery to be intertwined how will those protections be exposed that they were making for indian removal . In so many ways the issues were deeply connected and went through georgia and alabama and mississippi right through the traditional homelands and had experience moving with people because they had been engaged in the Transatlantic Slave Trade and then engaged in the interstate trade. And how people of color is indigenous american living in the south not under their command of the White Supremacy and that is often very much of the antagonism and hostility. And with those five votes thanks to the three fifths clause against the southern slaveholders had more power and to champion states rights to realize they need government to remove tens of thousands of native people but to the question expulsion . This is a great irony and you need the help of the Foreign Government and federal land and with this operation. There were a you folks who voiced some quiet opposition to the policy. But then quickly forced of them out in their place. There were a congressman certainly and both parties who opposed indian removal that jackson put a tremendous amount of pressure on them and pennsylvania and to threat and the political careers and then the congressman reports and it is as frightening. There was a tremendous amount of arm twisting and wheeling and dealing behind the scenes. So the southern also from new york city and boston and london because you try of the money with this expulsion. You refer to them as the northern pointers but that is one of the revelations of your book. Following the money how it was made and spent there was one powerful player. Who was he and why people like him critical to the expulsion . One of the most surprising parts of the story, i think that i stumbled across with my research in a just cap following the trails. Jb bears was probably the central player on wall street to finance the operation. And then moved to new york city and it was an emerging first center of American Finance so he knew the south and then to see this opportunity emerging to be recognized instantly there would be a tremendous honor is extremely valuable land available he wanted to get his hands on. He wanted a joint Stock Company he was not alone by the way and then to speculate of Indigenous Lands and to mask the amount of land and right in the most fertile land and then they flipped it for enormous profit. Ten or sometimes 30 times that they have invested in this property in those financial circuits lead back to the atlantic there are london bank accounts. It just wild speculation and corruption and Land Companies 53000 people when the government lottery for access to lands appropriated by the state. The majority do not want to leave so what are these millions of dollars and what does that mean for indians on the land . Its training rose distinct and the result was just the same so what happened it started worth hundreds of thousands of dollars in fact the game was to separate these people because they knew they could later flip the land for profit. So there were different strategies, and then to transfer property but then sometimes to speak openly then go before judge and he would say this is yes so they can dissolve the inheritance for pennies. From they hired impersonators and chickasaw indians at the time. Some more of those were close to starvation. And then we will give you ten dollars if you go before the judge to say that you are such and such a person even though you are not. Just make your mark on this piece of paper. Sometimes and india and did that hundreds of times. It was just a thunderstorm violence that unfolded and those were based in columbus to jeff. And surveyors dragging them from the field, people buying land and then they plowed right up next to the porch where the doorstep. People leaving their homes to come back to find floodwaters it is a disgrace. It is a time and to have that administrative muscle and to show powerfully incapable it was and so do you have examples how those limitations played out . Is 80000 people that doesnt sound like a lot in 21st century terms. But it was a huge operation for a very small young republic the federal government have eight or 9000 employees and 7000 the post office. They were completely overwhelmed because theyve never been involved in any type of operation and in the sense and then sometimes over 1000 miles that dont exist they have to build the roads so they dont know where they are going. They will have 21st century whether then they get severe winter storms and then to be completely overwhelmed by the logistics of it. But they dont really care about much and very people of color so it is a disregard at the end of the day it doesnt really matter of those officials that are involved in the operation. And then to and then to get stranded in the winter of 1833 most dont have close to keep them warm just a handful of tents they are not where they are supposed to be there surprised to see these people and they sat there between six and eight weeks so they can continue the journey westward these are numerous examples of the failure to see operations where they promised. And it brings alive of life to which one is George Gibson and the removal budget for the World Department so for a decades worth of trust the sympathetic field officer appeals performance on the arkansas. To have the selfreliance. And hundreds of margins and that was from the solutions in the south florida. And then to learn about this where do you go to as a historian when you read about this . So the stories are really hard. It was astounding to see the archives recording all of this and the atrocious events and then present in the way and then to keep going and doing the research. He was the judge but if you look at the correspondence before 1830 he is sending 20 pounds beef and pork to the troops. As an old friend of johnsons in the war of 1812. And to be a meticulous even to the fraction of a penny to scour the accounts and certainly if you cannot afford this we should not pay for them. With 18. 42 it would say you miscalculated that by a fraction of the plenty on ever a penny so please revise this. He was obsessed with this but doesnt see the Bigger Picture and the human misery the operation has created. And that he himself is overseeings. Some of them were sympathetic to those that they were removing it is preposterous to remove 1000 people 800 miles with women and children with no medicine or no doctor. Why would you not pay for doctor the right back . And then to say im not authorized to pay for that. Where the number of wagons that were available to move. Were to pay for the indian ponies these are the most viable property and the federal government will pay for the animals. That we are not authorized to pay for that. He underscored over and over again the economy is the most single most important thing. And thats why they were charged for the cost of deportation. This is an awful part of the story and they have to pay for their own removal. So the chickasaw received a bill. This goes on and on decades after the fact but they are looking at it with x number of people day died soon after they are built and in washington dc and in a sense and see that administrative plans so even being hunted in the words so please elaborate any experiences of the eastern band of the cherokee indians and why they were able to remain on historical and and North Carolina. So people who are able to stay in the south and the federal government recognizes early on the people who live in the mountains of North Carolina would be the most difficult that they found and engineer in the region so that these people are determined and the second thing is there is no way to be so precipitous so if we have to send troops it will be a disaster so a very small number of people and what is interesting about this is the federal government has lost interest which suggests that possibility that the cherokees could have stayed and with those negotiations there still seems to be open so it was sense inevitable about this spirit that is one of your points in the book it wasnt the inevitability but the political and economic and women fleeing stories and its just a horrible story because the resistance of those who by this time in alabama and mississippi so how does that change the us response to expulsion . And that pretense in the first half of the decade and for the native people but over the decade and with those individual landowners and we can become citizens of the state and the vast majority take that option and so in that it ends up about 1500 being marched in shame to Montgomery Alabama and potentially words indian territory at the same time that is now we call the second seminole war. And in 1842 days literally become words of extermination and i use that word daily federal officers to say that explicitly it is a war of extermination. And a high ranking general that the secretary of war wants to exterminate. And the stories are horrendous the chips are down there for years there shaping down those families. Of parents and seminal families and husband and wife and these troops to send on them and then captures them and we dont know what their fate was but then certainly they moved last. Can you comment in some cases enslaved people fighting with the seminoles can you comment on the extent of slaveholding . For the enslaved african americans. And the ultimate fear with the indian uprising that can sweep across the south. So this is the ultimate fear. That relationship between africanamericans and native people is quite complex and those who would cultivate. With those life plans across the south but there were fugitive slaves with the cherokees that were embraced by native families that were incorporated into the nations so in that spectrum a relationship listen to broader perspective and to places of refuge to be potentially allies. And then before and after removal to take the indian land and to eliminate the cultural presence and also any indian communities believed generating to add . Talking about policy, i suppose you could step back and suggest that when we say policy we need to be specific we can say there is a broader sentiment ask 16 from 1500 to present so talking into policy wills political choices people make and are hotly debated. And the opponents of this policy from the fear the public depends on and to treat people equally and to those that existed in europe to really truly say that with this decision that was made in 1830. And to see and read the things that native americans were appealing to the constitution and the liberty of equality in the book but before we have to close so in may of 1836 that expulsion begins. And by then not one native person was in alabama. To go back to your point, a lot of books covered treaties and how the Us Government backtracked on the cost and thats one of the things to talk about spending 500,000 and to expel the hundred thousand people so the government spent 75 million that is 1 trillion to date, 5 million how did you arrive at that number what are some of your calculations . Simply to convert from the 18 thirties so that is the decision we need to make and with those certain strategies with those kinds of questions that happened. But the cost to the federal government is relatively easy to determine and that calculations as a matter of converting the figure. So what is most important isnt just the cost of the federal government but to the native people. You come to so how much cherokee law. In the average American Family today if your family was wiped out overnight. And his family was literally taken from you overnight. And with that chickasaw man that was taken from me. It was equivalent to one of the largest corporations in the United States at the time. So imagine being dispossessed. These are relatively small nations so it was somewhere between 12 and 18000 citizens each. They are coowners of the corporation and it is stolen from them overnight. And for generations so one thing that strikes me to come back to jb beers that his children married into european royalty. His family, his great great great granddaughter died 1980 and she was extremely wealthy when she passed away. She was married early 20th century front page of the society papers. She was married according to the Society Pages in front of the mahogany tables that he owned so in 1990 when she died her estate made it on to the new york times. But this just shows you to be impoverished and dispossession and that still exist to this day. And that is so tragically expensive and it was a collateral cost and a pressure for more labor in the south that separated families and other regions in the call to reparations with policymakers and citizens alike in ways that are unimaginable a couple of years ago with any calls for reparations of Indigenous People and what does that mean . Thats a great question. There is the indian court set up in the late forties and fifties this is a policy called termination. And with those indian nations this is a failed policy and acted cynically and no one was satisfied at the end of the day. And is still an open question but thats the conversation that americans have to have with indigenous americans. And with that reconciliation and what does justice look like . And the expulsion that the slaveholders want so we are little bit over time so could you answer what that means to you quickly . You mentioned at some point with the civil on dash with the federal government over this issue went we will defend our slaves and on the border we will defend our rights. At the end of the day the federal Government Back down in jackson was in the white house as a more sympathetic figure. So slaveholders push this and they got what they want and at the end of the day they got exactly what they wanted to expand the process out thousands of africanamerican families were broken up and then visions taking over the entire continent and in cuba as well and then rule the world forever. And this was a key step in that process. Thank you so much for your time tonight Claudio Saunt. We a book called on where the republic on where the republic. Please purchase from a cappella books we have virtual a