Your television provider. Good evening everyone. Im the director of the book festival. Thank you so a much for being here tonight. We are absolutely delighted to be hosting larry tye for his book demagogue. About senator joseph mccarthy. His long sign john nichols. The Capital Times and associative and under in a magazine. We could not be more delighted to be hosting this event for you. Also along here on our podcast channel. I want to take a moment to say thank you to Madison Public Library and the foundation. Their support for online cultural events has been absolutely unwavering. Im so excited to see john nichols. Their support for these events have been absolutely unwavering. And they have been so dedicated to bring authors and to all of you, said that you can watch her home. It in medicine, weve seen incredible uptake in our audience, people from all over and its absolutely wonderful to see the response i think it everyone who is here tonight. It and to all of the sponsors to make sure that these events keep going. With all further ado i would like to bring john and mary to the screen. And heres larry. Larry hi everyone and thank you for joining us. Larry, things for coming all of the way to massachusetts to be here with us tonight. There is cape cod as we speak. We have about 100 people are close to hundred people with this. And more may join us as we go along. As was explain the front, we will take questions. I will ask larry some questions that the start. And about halfway in, will invite some questions from you folks marie wouldve taken. We are very excited to go there. Something to couple things up front about larry. First and foremost, he is a journalist. As folks are journalism. And its very best. We live in a time when journalism is under attack. Not only by political figures but also by the economic forces on the moment in which we live. In the challenges we face. And so it is a great honor to be with another journalist and somebody who has really practice the craft and some of the most creative and exciting ways. So that is only a beginning of discussing larrys any talents any contributions. I will also mention that we are talking tonight about a new book that they put out, demagogue. Thats his book on joe mccarthy, a former senator from wisconsin. I do want to emphasize the larry has ten other books, that are worth a your attention if you have not read them already. His biography of kennedy was brilliant. And really talk the expiration of kennedy story journey to a new and exciting places produce biography page was a vital contribution to not just force history but the history of really the evolution of this country. And so any fundamental ways. And finally, rising from the rails, a story of the car porters. Im a huge fan of randolph. And was a leader and chairman of the march on washington in 1963. Larry, captured that brilliantly. It is highly recommended of his books. We are here tonight stuck by the brilliant new book. Demagogue. I wanted to start out larry by asking you. I dont mean in some of your other biographies, you have the name of the person, the actual or Bobby Kennedy in the case of joe mccarthy, you chose the word. Demagogue. Why was that. Larry before he answered that question i just want to say that john is one of the any people that i interviewed for this book and two things stood out about my interview with him. When is is the youngest person and i interviewed when i was trying to get a sense of people who really in the mccarthy era d the other was that he was among the very smartest people i interviewed. Any of you who are wisconsin readers know his work from the camp times and from the nation and from all kinds of other places that he has published. So having somebody who was tuned to not just mccarthy but the context in wisconsin and the nation was extraordinary. And the reason that i picked this one word title was now mccarthys name was because this is a book that is about americas love affair with bullies from a very early days until today. Demagogue. The beginnings of his crusade is because he was the architect for this bully or demagogue figure in American History. That is a longwinded explanation i promise to give other answer shorter, john. Host were actually here to hear what you have to say praise a little longwinded is okay part of going to keep right on the title for a Second Period in the title we use the term the long shadow. Life and long shadow of joe mccarthy. Give us a sense of what you mean by that. The long shadow. Is it the impact of what he did . Or is it really the broader notion of the demigod. So we partly cast a long shadow because of the impact of what he did. And not just him as mr. Mccarthy. But the orchestrator of this whole movement, mccarthyism. It is also to say that we just cant stop with his death. We have to look at how we influence demagogues after. Whether they be david duke, george wallace, for people who are in our political context today. I just want to say one other thing. The temptation with a lot of the interviews ive been doing on joe mccarthy, its a talk about donald trump. This is a really book up about John Mccarthy. Donald trumps only mentioned the preface in the epilogue. In his story in the story of other demigods as they turn away and every page of the book. On as long as you brought trump up, im going to join you in trying to avoid a very deep discussion of him. Tell me, when you started putting this book together, it was around the start of his presidency wasnt it . Guest actually a week before the election 2016 i had signed up to write a different book. That was a biography of barack obama. The day after the election i realize we will not know rock obamas legacy until after the era of trump is over. It also became apparent to me, the day after the election, that what i thought was a story of almost ancient history in america in terms of demigods, is the story of today. That we have not outgrown this affair, this attraction to bullies in the ways id hoped we had. Host so lets get into the book a little bit. One interesting element of it is that you take a very casual approach to referring to him. I guess the way to say it is usually the book which a wonderful narrative throughout. Just a great screen going through it. Its a little bit like being maybe sitting out in front of somebodys house and a couple of lawn chairs, or by the beach or the end of the bar. Somebody starts to tell a very long story. His very human in some anyways we thought to do that. Youre right it a biography of somebody you have to humanize them and make the reader feel like they are getting into the spirit of this persons life. Whether this person is somebody who you think of by the end of the book as a hero or villain, they ought to know them. As a preconscious thing, same way Bobby Kennedy, i talked about him generally using the word bobby. That was a conscience decision. With this one it is lots of joes. Its not a variation from mccarthy but it is try to get in and see him from the inside. Host what did you see me looked inside . Guest i saw on the one hand, i want to go back actually to a quote that was one of the reasons i have had joe mccarthy in the back of my head ever since i was in my research on Bobby Kennedy. It is a quote from that one person of the 450 people that i interviewed for the Bobby Kennedy book that was irreplaceable. A woman name ethel kennedy, bobbis widow. She said something about joe mccarthy that i cannot get out of my head. It was that joe mccarthy might be a monster too much of americ america. But to bobby and to me he was just plain good fun. The idea of joe mccarthy being good fun was counterintuitive to me. I felt there some side of him, the side that caused wisconsin to overwhelmingly elect him in two different statewide elections that i wanted to understand. Until i came out of this book feeling like on the one hand joe mccarthy became much more of a human being as opposed to the caricature we study in our history books than i had ever realized. He is somebody that i would love to have gone out for a beer wit with. And sat down and really understood all of his charms, all of his ability to can vince evelyn Bobby Kennedy gives a great guy to spend time with. On the other hand the documents i looked at made him seem even more sinister than the history books did. The upside was he became more of a human being. The downside was that a lot of the political things he did in his motivation and doing them, and while we could see some of the papers that gave a more candid sense of that made him somebody that if you went out for a beer with him at night that will be fine. But you sure as heck would not want to be in the witness stand when he was grilling you during the day. Spirit one of the most interesting things about mccarthy was his ability to joke with the people he was about to attack. Or jokingly attack them. We had the stories of John Patrick Hunter the longtime political reporter who battled with bacardi throughout the 40s or throughout the 50s for sure. He actually started to hide behind poles at the event us. Because he got saw him in the cloud, mccarthy would launch into a rather jovial attack on the prayer. And an attack on hunter. But it will not be so mean started. It almost before the phone and the joking and the crowd. That was very common with him. Think that suggest two things about mccarthy. One is that he did not quite understand how brutal he was being. And being there with an angry called up by mccarthy was putting hunter at a risk. I dont think mccarthy quite got that aspect of it. It was also joe mccarthy this as a bit of a game. He assumed that everyone was there, journalists or politicians he is going after what understand that it was a game. They would understand the rules. They would be able to go after with him and put it all behind them. Because after all it was a game. Host i think youre right about him it comes out in your booking i dont take the whole narrative of mccarthy story because i think people should read the book. I am interested in your thoughts about at the start of his caree career. At least a relatively liberal character. Was that nearly opportunistic . Or is that where he actually started and evolved into Something Else. So when you cant talk about much of anything with John Mccarthy leave out the opportunistic element. The element he started out with older conservative that he ended up, i think where he started out in where he had the most choice. He didnt know what would get them is elected. When he ran for district attorneys new fdr democrat. Think of someone whos fired up about that that he really believed that was best for the country. His irish roots suggested is where he belongs. I think the only time he question his being a democrat was being a liberal and he realized he could not be elected from the area around appleton that he grew up. He was game to do whatever it took to be elected. So some night, probably the middle of the night when nobody was looking he went and changed his Party Registration to republican. And as you know the story, it was not just that he became a republican. The opening and the Republican Party, the progressive wing of the progressive party, and the opening was the most conservative Republican Party. If that meant changing his ideology, he was going to do that. He was going to do and he did whatever it took. Of anything that ran throughout his life, it was the theme of whatever it took. Host were the people along the way to help them to make that change . Thinking of some of the folks up in appleton, particularly manchester and others. There a lot of people who helped him. It was his best friend and probably say just advisor. And he helped steer him. The people at the newspaper and appleton, helped steer him. He had lots of people who ended up being his enablers. Being his benefactors. And being his guides. And he was willing to take advice from anybody he was willing to serve the ends of joe mccarthy. She went and they like that right . That made him appealing. They love that. It was an extraordinary character and i think from comments he made over the years to everybody from journalists, to authoress to children that he truly adored John Mccarthy. He understood mccarthys flaws and shortcomings as well as anybody did. But that he was a loyal friend and he stuck with him for he never publicly repudiated mccarthy even when his temptation was to do that. And even when his telling his kids at mccarthy it gone off the rails again. And i think that was a lot of people had a lot of loyalty to joe mccarthy. Including somebodys who entire family was representing the iconic liberal first family of america, the kennedys. Became loyal enough from John Mccarthy. Not only publicly question him , but when his brother jack said stay away from mccarthys funeral and appleton in 1957, bobby said thank you jack interesting advice. He flew into appleton with all of his republican congressional people. And on the one hand healed up in the choir loft so nobody could see him at the funeral. At the Graveside Service he stood off to the side where no one could see him. After the funeral he begged the journalist who were there to not put his name in the stories and not get him in trouble with his big brother jack. But until the very end, and until today the kennedys generally and bobby specifically very loyal to him. With mccarty with elvis flaws is a guy who inspired on a personal level that kind of enormous loyalty. Host is also notable that john kennedy really danced around mccarthy rather than standing up to him. Guest john kennedy had a different relationship. Bobby was more straightforward less plotting guy than john kennedy. John kennedy is always thinking of his next step it im convinced the day kennedy was born he started plotting his president ial campaign. His father did absolutely. But jack picked it up quickly. In 1952 when john kennedy was a relatively unknown and unaccountably congressman from massachusetts run against the very powerful senator lodge to take that seat away from lodge , he had one big request for joe mccarthy. Which was stay the heck out of massachusetts. Joe kennedy given enough money to John Mccarthy that whenever he asked, mccarthy was likely to say yes. Joe kennedy was smart enough to know that if joe mccarthy came to massachusetts and campaign for the Republican Lodge lots of Irish Catholic voters who love joe mccarthy. Whether they were republicans they were more likely democrats would do what he said to do. And jack kennedy ended up winning up that senate seat by just three percentage points. In the year of an eisenhower landslide group won by nine points but i think joe kennedy and jack kennedy were right. Mccarthy staying out of massachusetts ensures kennedy won the seat. And jack kennedy for the rest of his life had a certain kind of loyalty for mccarthy. When mccarthy was censured the only senator in the senate at that time who not only did not show up and vote but who we do not know how they would have voted was jack kennedy. Not exactly the kind of profile that jack candidate was famous for talking about. Attire when you take us to that term right there. You are from massachusetts. Weve already spoken far too much about massachusetts here. Lets talk about wisconsin. And that 1946 campaign that brought mccarthy to the u. S. Senate. He took on the senator who would come back into the Republican Party after having been out of it for a dozen years as a leading figure with his brother and that progressive party. Mccarthy obvious is making opportunistic run pretty had the brought backing of the party establishment. He was an epic figure in the states. Appears seat early on he did not take mccarthy seriously. Or did not taken seriously enough. Through accu have just captured the through line for all of mccarthys campaign. His opponent seldom took him seriously. Tom coleman who was the dean of the republicans in the states never took them seriously. As a guide to carry their cudgel against the follis. Tom colemans dream come im sure it kept them up at night was somehow beating him. That joe mccarthy of the his vehicle for doing it is something he did except until he watched mccarthy. Any watch mccarthy go out and hustle all of the republican activists. Especially young republicans in a way that finally coleman became convinced this was the guy who was so determined to win that he was the guy he got get behind. The way i think that joe mccarthy beat him was partly what you were suggesting. That he beat himself. He really, it was almost like he was surrendering. I think he was getting older. He had been in office long enough, his health is not great. And im sure he is not convinced he wanted another term. Or at least not wanted it enough to fight hard and to fight dirty like he was going to have to do to beat a guy like joe mccarthy. So mccarthy had legitimate issues in the campaign. Whether hed been captured by the republican establishment had the kind of rootedness in wisconsin that voters in any state want to see when they are electing somebody. He also fought dirty. And he raised issues like the fact that le follett owned a home in virginia. And mccarthy was suggesting that was a manchin. And it was a place he really considered home. And not wisconsin. And if anybody should not have had to show that the deep roots in the state of wisconsin, certainly his family had given up as much and serve the state, not just for a long time but really well. But a time he finally came back and started campaigning hard, the campaign was essentially over. And mccarthy one by out hustling his opponent see what a section about 3000 votes, right . Guest is a very close election. It was an unlikely election for mccarthy to be able to oppose le folletts. Whos the toughest toughest election he would ever face. The easy things to beat a decamp pratt after you beat le folletts. The republican nomination. So when mccarthy shows up in washington in early 1947, he shows that there arguably as one of the biggest surprises in the new class of senators, arguably the least qualified new center to taking a seat like that. But he also from his earliest days gave an indication that if anybody had been paying attention he someone to be reckoned with. He was throwing bounds of hers even seated in the senate. Essentially saying striking miners we ought to think about doing a Death Penalty