Welcome. My name is Vivian Schiller and the executive director of aspen digital of the Aspen Institute program really glad you could be with us today. The York Times Bestseller list can often seem to be a near untimely or of the national psyche. As such this year seems to reflect a nation going through and awaking of matters of race. Books written by people of color and about matters of race and racism have filled those lists. Both fiction and nonfiction prayed that is the good news. Sadly, the Publishing Industry does not necessarily always reflect that reality. The recent twitter protest has back publishing paid and exposed a major pay disparity in the industry between black and nonblack authors. There are few people of color who serve as publishing staff or literary agents. And even fewer who operate as decisionmaking levels. And for those who are published, sometimes the marketing exposure coming sub optimal. This year, of National Reckoning on racism, we can take a look at the book industry, the book Publishing Industry, and whether it can bring more racial diversity to the field. This is part of our changing the narrative series. It looks at issues of race to the media. When one program on the news media and we have upcoming another program about the entertainment industry. We explore the challenges but importantly we also explored the new possibilities, in this case for publishing more books by and about people of color. So, im about to introduce our panel and moderator force today prayed before i do, just a reminder this is a live program. Youre going to hear a conversation among our moderator and our fantastic panelists. Within later in the hour were going to take your questions. To you but found the bottom of your screen of concealed little button that says q a. You can enter your question. We would ask that you add your name and your affiliation if youre comfortable doing so. It just adds a little more texture and context for the questions. We will then curate those questions and provide those to our wonderful moderator who will impose them to our panelists. So any time click on it starting now. Now let me introduce our panelists so we could get started. We have regina brooks the founder and president of Serendipity Literary Agency and Brooklyn Bridge her agent has established a diverse base of awardwinning clients an adult, young adults each and literature. Nicole is the author of here comes the sun, near times notable book of the year and it won a literary award winner for best selling book patsy is a 2020 award winner, near times editors choice of Financial Times Critic Choice honor book and on countless book of the year list. Lisette lucas has been executive director of the National Book foundation and is the incoming Senior Vice President for publisher of a pantheon and shokin books. Prior to journey foundation, lisa served as a publisher, a nonprofit online magazine focusing on writing that explores the intersection of arts and politics with an international and diverse focus. We have with this also erroll mcdonald the Vice President and executive editor that can often double date division of pandemic branding house where he has various editorial capacities are more than three decades. Among the singles authors he has published are jack henry abbott, James Baldwin, henry louis gates, Toni Morrison, and many, many more. And finally i am so please introduce my colleague and moderator for day, andrienne brodeur. She is the head, executive director of aspen words. Shes off of the author of the memoir wild game which is been in development for a film. During her 15 years the Publishing Industry, adrian counted a literary magazine h h books and served as a judge for the National Book award among other literary contests but she has been published far and wide in magazines prayed she has been with aspen since 2013 aspen is a literary arts Nonprofit Program of the Aspen Institute which includes the aspen words literary prize. We are so pleased to have you with this adrian. My beloved colligan so i turn over to you and the other talent. Thank you vivian for the introduction and thank you for the aspen words and Aspen Digital Team for hosting this event. Into all of us our panelists and to all of you who are zooming in today for your interest in changing the narrative something long overdue in the Publishing Industry fyi to all of you watching, this group met yesterday travel little pregame conversation. We decide as much as possible we would like to make this a forward thinking solution driven conversation in other words were not going to sugarcoat any of the facts or gloss over those exists in publishing we are not going to spend too much time restating it rehashing the obvious. The obvious being, one, the industry is been predominately white, 76 according to a recent survey. A net figure skews higher when it comes the highest position in the industry. And two, as a result of that power structure and the fact that white people have been the primary arbiter of literary culture, black writers and other writers of color have had a harder time getting published. There are of course other issues, cultural appropriation, dispiriting pay. Vivian mentioned and what publishing paid me twitter protest. So were going to have lots and lots of talk about. But before he dive into the conversation, it feels important to acknowledge that i am aye woman. And i am sure have blind spots in terms of my own privilege. And im working hard to become more selfaware which we only do at this time. But with that lets begin. Is all of us on this call no, we arent lucky enough to work in one of the most fascinating, exciting wonderful industries, publishing, the world of literature story telling and literature. But i like to start with is with you, talking about what drew you to the literary world . And what the Publishing Industry needs to do now to open up opportunities to people of color they the howard Publishing Institute. To make sure. So excited to be on this panel. When he think about the genesis of how ice started in publishing, it was very serendipitous. So thats the name of my compan company. I have a background in engineering as an Aerospace Engineer i can this Publishing Program at Howard University and it really changed my life and my world upside down. Background interest in books virginity of always been a persons goes to the library. The liveries right on the around the corner from my house. And i realized that, asked my mom to go upstairs. She found this, it was a certificate that i had actually given James Baldwin and award. [laughter] so i have always been a part of the public in space. I end up the howard institute, not institute no longer exist today. I think of psalms 27 years ago. As an engineer, i started out working out for john wylie sons and i started in sales. And eventually they move me to it new york and i became editor. As i worked as an editor and the engineering disciplines, mechanical chemical electrical, is so funny i think it back to the genesis, there are two people that i met at that Publishing Institute that are still in the business today. One of them is a Business Partner now. One is marie brown shes a literary agent. She and i have our own imprint called open lands now. And also, i met sherrill hudson, she is a publisher with her husband wade and they again are still in the business. Theres something to be said about the longevity being in the business as a black person theres also something to be said about the fundamentals that were learned at that Publishing Institute. Like i said, Howard University publishing no longer exist today. But when i think about what kind of things could the industry do to really bring more people into the business, and also sustain them. I think of the and awesome idea to reinvigorate that institute. There are other institutes that exist like the denver institute, columbia also nyu. I think that numerous publishers today are trying to figure out how do we get to the talents . How do we get to the talent . Theres no bigger better way to do that and to have the institute. And i did read, just today but in publishing, create a public teaching diversity fellowship which is new i believe that is part of the columbia publishing course. That is still a smaller organization than the one youre talking about. It also segues nicely something lisa was mentioning yesterday, which was really about the bounty of jobs in publishing that we dont really necessary all know are there without some kind of education in the field. Because most able think writers, editors thats it. Unit talk at all about that lis lisa . Snap i was joking yesterday not the tarp recall if Something Like a job like a literary scout existed i probably wouldve been the literary scout. As a 28yearold is like what did i miss . I think it is a complicated industry. I am still learning. I would start working at the magazine out of 33 protecting from outside the industry by the within Ascension Parish was a real education all the things no one had told me. I think we have to be think about the industry of course with decisionmakers and executives and publishers and editors. Wealth anything about the marketing folks. And about our publicity folks. Design and legal in hr, all the things that go into in sales. There are so many pieces. Every book, they have an imprint, and it has a title as an author. When you think well this person made this book. It takes an actual enormous team to make these books. If you dont have diversity at every level, you dont have the checks and balances that keep the embarrassing missteps from happening for you have diversity of information about where there are challenges. Whether its in hr, the blind spots all throughout. I think we do focus on the authors and the editors. And he think we have to be digging broadly about what an entire team that makes about possible or imprint possible, or Publishing House possible. For the agents representation. Regina so important you need people that understand the challenges. You need to educate people on what books are. I think one of our jobs is to work with teenagers. They were all interested in becoming filmmakers. Think the most important thing we did was demystify what it looks like she articulate below the line jobs as well as what it meant to be a director common editor or a producer right . Because people had an understanding of what was happening. We are very happy to see mike we make magic. I think everyone makes our is. My magical art for my work in a known could ever figure out we do, that it secures that there are roles for people to fill. And there are job trajectories. I think that where a parent of a child may not support them if they want to go be an author or editor, they might understand what it means to be in hr in a huge corporate to work in the arts with a law degree or whatever it is pretty think it goes from a high to low it doesnt matter for john but a job inside of a warehouse or job at the top top. Think about operations or sales or marketing or what have you. I think we really have to start educating people about what publishing and the whole literary field. Including literary nonprofits look like for it to be equitable in some way and to be reflective of this world we live and paired we are telling the stories. We think about only the art and the artist first. But there is so much that has to happen for that art to live and to educate about those roles as well. Then maybe we can turn to the artist, nicole, ask you what your career journey was like . Was it hard for you to find traction in the industry in the beginning . Finding an agent, an edge editor, all that with your first novel . To make definitely was a challenge. With what lisa just said it demystifies the industry. I knew nothing about the industry. Im coming from public health, medical background. Sue first generation immigrant youre told thats what you ought to do. But yes i always wanted to be a writer. I did not know any writers growing up. Especially writers of colors are black writers. When i came to the u. S. , when it got into what is the program and got into one i was surprised i was a black student in that program. Long story short, we are told getting agents were hardest thing. In thinking that was the hurdle you have to jump through to get into the realm of publishing. That is far from a truth. As lisa just mentioned heathers editors, all of those things. Some of thats the right person somebody is a person i trusted because a woman in michigan would never read my book and understand what i was talking about. Being a young writer, i thought that was the end all be a that would have to do that to be successful. So i did. And of course reading luckily i had a mentor, she was the head where i had a fellowship. She called me and said let this one go. As a writer its going to be up part of the game to get rejection, sickle back to the drawing board. Getting onto the computer and submit a query for agents. Thats what ended up doing. And writing a whole new book actually. And submitted to agents. Couple weeks later, i was so happy that julia bear happen to be one of them who i fell in love with. Because one thing i was looking that of course my mentor again, very important to have mentors. One thing that she said to me as you know it, your agent is a relationship i love young writers out there shopping for an agent because thats what youre told you you ought to get to be successful. It is important to have someone who gets your work. And especially since you are black writer, black immigrant writer as well, tapping into the very, very dark issues. All these things, the person has to get it to sell the book well. I had the luck of having that happen. But the thing is, not many Publishing Houses were latching onto it. For comes a son is a hard sell. In fact, the only publishers that latched onto the book, from live report as getting messages like oats to commercial or we dont understand why young black white writer is changing her skin what is that . A gram in terms of diversifying publishing. Maybe there are more who are looking at the workings that oyo would get that, we understand the importance. Seeing the other side of the socalled paradise that people see. But i was actually of who we are in had a fantasy. I feel like nobody got that except for one woman who happens to be white. Two women who happen to be whites. There is also allies as well. One thing that happened in 2020 that i was really happy about lisas coming on now is here she is in her position. That young me did not know these people. They knew nothing about that. Now we are more we are here this level these individuals are in higher positions. I interviewed dana kennedy two weeks ago for magazine and she said you know things have to happen from the top. I know it has a trickledown but the trappers were happens first. So i honestly believe, sitting at that top. Looking at people your rights coming into the game. If you could see yourself with other people you can do it as well. You can achieve that because their people behind those cool stories who are ready for you. Thats wre i am coming from. Right thank you. If i was a bit in the industry for some time, 40 years, why has the industry been so very slow to diversify . And what other initiatives need to be developed to achieve greater inclusivity . Theres so much fake news out there about publishing in general. Publishers have done such a lousy job accounting for and describing the industry. Many begin by saying the publishing with literary publishing. Se, is a nonstarter. Because publishing is a huge universe of categories that most people dont Pay Attention to. The press is mostly interested in literary and commercial fixtures. I think publishers can increase diversity and inclusion in categories and multiplicity of function. So i echo what lisa says, that along every aspect of the publishing chain, we should think about it reflecting america. Reflecting how america looks. Right now the emphasis is strictly on decisionmakers. And that should not be. If its going to be on decisionmakers, it needs to be on decisionmakers in publicity, and marketing, and sales, and in the bookselling community. That is very true. And it is such a enormous industry. Id like for a moment to turn towards the very current moment we are existing in. And i think we can agree it is sort of a unique moment in time. Or a special moment right now that in recent weeks, black authors including isabel wilkerson, chris bennett, abrams kennedy, and many others have surged the top of the bestseller list. I know we wish all of us, id not been brought on by this racial reckoning that took place in the aftermath of the murders of innocent black people, george floyd, breonna taylor, but is this moment actually feel different to you . Or we keep going theo. Does it still feel like you think this one is going to last . Does it feel like a moment . What can white and black publishing professionals do to continue to sustain recognition of authors of color . So its not just a blip that winds down. I dont believe that reflection of the history of publishing. Books by black writers were hugely popular in the 60s and 70s. During the Civil Rights Movement during the black power movement. There in a moment where the narrative is still being defined to a certain degree by people of power. Those books are on the bestseller list are there mostly to educate whites. Okay . Whites had taken on these books is that they were selfhelp programs. I bum interest in these books hold tenuate. But i do think there on the bestseller list as increased interest in acquiring more books like those among publishers. Okay. Im in regina, they have been riskier does not help works in the Music Industry for instance, what can we do from your perspective or from the literary agents perspective to continue changes . Oops you are on mute. [laughter] sorry about that. I was wednesday while that is a big question for there are number of different ways i can approach answering that question. I think the first thing echoes back to what was said before. Its very difficult for people to penetrate the marketplace. If there is a lack of understanding. It was a literary agent, one who thanks i am consistently asked, editors if you notice there is an audience for book, and you know that the book is going to sell. But the book is not necessarily so that you would read or go pickup in the bookstore. Would you acquire that book . And more often than not, senders say, doesnt resonate with me. Thats not a book i feel like i can truly champion. And i am not the best editor for that book. There is a true understanding from the agent and editor standpoint why they may say tha that. But that is a big hurdle. Because most of the people again that are in these positions of power to make decisions are white. On the does not mean that white people cannot enjoy books that are written by people of color. But generally speaking, the people that they do raise up on by books from our celebrity sitter people of color. Right. Two that is one big obstacle. This was also the editorial sid side. The other thing i heard she was even if they were interested in buying the book, understanding how to position the book once it is acquired, is a big issue. And what it would mean by position . How do we get it out into the marketplace of the audience that is going to be interested in this book actually knows about it. This is about the childrens, young adults, adults marketplac marketplace. All of the different areas within publishing do we have issues. Against staffing issues. Their people from the sales department, people in marketing, people in publicity that are people of color, there could be a lot more understanding of how that position. Just on a call today who i was talking to a marketing director. And explained that i am okay at this point that you dont know how to position this book. But im here to stand in the ga gap. I have my finger the polls of certain communities. In the winter to use me as an ally to help position some of these books. But there arent a lot of people like me, first of all agents typically dont help with marketing. On the second thing is, when they do, these structures not set up to allow agents to have that kind of access to the Marketing Department to the publicity department. The essays of the editors. Sprint since nicole since you had a fellow team as i understand it, marketing, publicity, sales et cetera, who is helping you with that gap . Did you have someone help, both of your books and been very successful. Did you have regina to help you guide you through some of that . Somehow she stepped in that gap. I had a great publicist, feel like he had his finger in all of the polls. Here comes the sun i would say like on eleanors list. What i wanted on my book. As well as the jamaican who wanted to read the book as well. They also got. And for me it was the book it had a jamaican widget the book as well i was happy all of the stars were aligned. Thats great i actually did listen to your book to his wonderful reading. So lisa come in terms of you. I was you been credited with revitalizing the National Book award. The Book Foundation and its annual award. I think in 2008, office of color swept all five categories, is that right . 2008 . 2018 im sorry. I added a decade to your work there. [laughter] why you think theres a disconnect between the recognition and marketability for authors of color . Light think back to a point earlier which is if you really wanted to facilitate change at the top, you need to think about marketing. Any think about publicity. So functionally the National Book award is a publicity wing of books. Likely make noise about books. Try to serve readers. We are not publisher basing their not author basing. We are reading reading basing an audience basing. Thats it we work to do. That is the way that was our panels, the presenter show, we have as host, the different programs we do whether not were giving books to young families in public housing. Or doing middle School Programs for young readers. We are selecting books about mass incarceration and coming up with interesting ways to get people to read those books so they know more about the system. These are always to connect reader and book. And i think that, you know, ultimately one of the reasons why we see some of the problems we see is about a failure to imagine a different or new audience. And i think that the foundation is nimble enough and small enough that we can do that really easily. I can get a new job and set think we can reach a bigger audience. Some of will put me on the news and say that and we can start doing that new program. It is not as difficult to implement change. I think on the publishing side which i have them but i will soon go. I think one of the things is there seems to be such a resistance of publishing, literary publishing to think about we sell is a thing as a commodity or making a transaction between consumer and seller. If you are apple, and use it just seems like black people just dont like the ipads. Were not when to sell them ipads. Were gonna focus on who has ipads and sell them ipads. With an ever increasing black population working to send that money in the garbage were not to say it were not worth that we dont like ipads. That feels a bit to me of what publishing has done. We note black folks who like this kind of books that can guarantee is a sale. When everything else, its never going to happen. Mary b there is a flash in the pan, on the worst at mixing metaphors. [laughter] or whatever the expression is. This happened in big bestseller. Now it ever happen again. Lets move on and selling your grandma and iowa a book. Because we know she will buy it. But the question for me is how to begin your crime and i want to love books. How to be get to know she would like a specific book for thats Market Research thats investment, thats working on how to ensure a community is consistently well served and we involve our business to continue serving that cash cow that is that particular demographic segment of america. And in our continued refusal to actually consider we might seek market share to the greatest disservice that we could possibly told her black and brown communities in america. Tour rural communities. I think that we really often fail on that front. The fact to be the thing i keep coming back down to is like you like to sell things just are no . Do we want to sell more things yes or no. Other more people have demonstrated again and again we have overestimated on consumption and we went to sell them things . Yes or no . Do we like stories, we people in america pot. We love films to the podcast we love television. We love books too. And how do you transfer the actual factual information into sales of a product . And that insofar as i understand is our job. And i think that, you know, we are the continuation to sortable were talking earlier but all these books going on the best seller lists our job is to keep them on the bestseller list. To continue pumping things into the reading population actually doesnt chase away. We need to talk about the fact there are very few black booksellers. Very few latino booksellers. Very few indigenous booksellers. Very few bookstores and communities that serve these communities. And so what you do with that . The whole thing is structured to look at only white people has big big shifts. If the really systematically look at where those points are. We are continually failing. And judge not just for equity or justice but at the very baseline, most cynical rebel for company. To any of the rest of you and to add something to it lisa just said, it is so fascinating. We focus on the books around the bestseller list. These books on race and racism. Because even those books which are described as socalled black books, are in fact against white readers. I have not seen a lot of black people try to be an antiracist on subways. I dont see a lot of black people reading white fragility. So we have to understand that publishers broaden their understanding of why books in matters to black people. Absolutely. Anyone else . P peoples country have to decide black People Matter before we can decide black folks deserve black culture. It is the exclusionary history we use this language it is so soft. Even in harsh languages. The conclusion of only so many black only two living. Since the 1980s an enormous collection of the best films planet earth. The fact that those stones have not been canonized. They have been not given the same treatment. Meaning we are excluded from what we consider the best. That is suppression. When he think of julie, not off in the film tangent, you think about just another girl, got so many you think of all these incredible things it of shape to black culture and shaped black thoughts on the film side. There actual exclusion this incentivizes participation. You cant win so why play . Fails to educate the american population. But at the end suppress real voices if we are not saying something that speaks to this gatekeeper than it is not of value. And that person is what value is to everyone. And then we become devalued. So i think the dangerous nature of this sort of thing, think that is the thing people dont understand. I think even people making these decisions dont understand. It is not just an equal, it is not just unjust. It is also done to people who live in this country. That might be slight off tangent. But i just feel sort of like we have to really understand that foundation about being cynical about whether what black people will read. An artificially manufacturing a Cultural Landscape that suppresses the real lack of voice and so many different instances. It is part of what is destroying our country. Go ahead. I was just going to say its interesting Toni Morrison brought me to the kitchen. Theyd watch for interviews for agree on the essays for it she says its not right for the white, you write your stories and write it truth. What was just said the kind of books and made bestseller list is like teaching white people. I remember talking to a friend , even with here comes the sun, i did not get any awards. On it was and is a bestseller off new York Times Bestseller. Im like oh my gosh it was interesting. And she said to me . What would Toni Morrison say . I was like. [inaudible] said the truth about art form. And so i think that is very important but at the same time i do understand that yes i do see the books on the list. I do see that pattern i mean i love most of the people who are on that list. But yes when you do look at the issues it tends have that element in there. What he just said, its the question of the artist a special for our Young Artists and you are wondering so what if were writing and nobody wants to read what we write . Your constant pushing causally writing. And theres think it is for discussions like this on for this is a good discussion but you dont want to worry her head to latch onto just right. So i guess as an artist listening to this conversation just right. No there are people that are hopefully going to listen to what we have to say. Im glad youre part of this conversation. [laughter] and before i realize we are getting close to wanting us to turn it over to the audience q q a. I wanted to ask one last question is sort of an optimist and i would like to know, what does give you hope about the industry these days . And are there things that are coming think you mentioned are looking up and hopeful about. And in and you can chime in on. I will say one of the things that i am really excited about is i am on the board of the association of representatives. A minute . No. Im on the board of the association of author representatives. We are doing quite a bit to try to bring more people of color into the agency world. Because they are the gatekeepers within the Publishing Houses. Also in order to get into most these mainstream Publishing Houses you do need an agent. And a lot of times for people of color it can be difficult getting an agent. Just being an agent is a very difficult thing to because of the way the Business Model is set up. Not too many people of color are able to live in york city, partly that is shifting. And be, where their salaries set up based on you eat what you kill. As an agent i get 15 of the monies that my authors get in advance. And that is my commission. And so, you mentioned earlier the publisher. So that i am an agent working with clients that are black. I mean i have a combination. If im working with black authors whose work is being devalued were getting only a small percentage, what is a very difficult business to be in. There are a lot of changes being addressed in that part of the business. I am super excited to be one of the people who are helping to make some of those shifts. Thank you. Anyone else . What are the things that excite me . The things that excite me. One is that there appears to be a generational shift in the Publishing Industry. I was really heartened by the attempted insurrection by some young people recently. And making certain demands of publishers. And i think its not unhealthy met an older generation which adheres to certain matters, i dont think its unhealthy that that generation might be dying out. [laughter] i would agree. I would say think the thing that gives me the most optimism is not necessarily the older generation leaving, but the new generation coming in. I slight, i think, im 20 years into a career. Hopefully a wild left to go. So happily in the middle. But you look at i came up the way i came up. I had to change the way i spoke or dressed or acted or what i said. The things that i accepted that i feel ashamed of now. And many cases. They are growing up believing this to be unacceptable. The narrative is different for them. The larger landscape is different for them. Even things that i as a pretty else both should unhand spoke that enraged person who feel and think and do they are so much more radical than i could ever dream of being. And i just cant wait pretty think that is, the thing that i can give is to ive had many mentors. Many from the old guard. I lost one he was more bait role model than a technical mentor. But you know, to try seek out young people who can change thi this. And to give them whatever information of context or con tax i have two empower them. Their great shakeup of the cultural world that they have all of the tools they could possibly have. And you know what . At one point though so you can too conservative. Youre not doing enough youre not changing fast enough and i welcome that. They deserve the power to actually did make this world a little bit more just. And i think that i grew up in a different world. I was born in 1980. He went to high school in the 90s. I think it would be so different and still very frustrating in 2020 to be that age. I think we have that opportunity to change a few things. I think that people have demonstrated they still value the book. I wish more people did, but people think about the book, the news cares about the book, again more than it did maybe ten years ago. And i think that intersection of people who care about literatur literature, no name, the rapper from chicago who is incredible is taking a deep and profound interest of getting books into prisons and talk about anticapitalist books. Doing a book club in think about who we are speaking to being spoken to by, i want to see what that looks like. I am just really excited for that future. And it may not include me and the degree i would like it to. And that is okay. Think we have a lot to thank the four of you for, the resurgence of the book. Im going to look at these questions that are in the chat line and ask you some of these. So here we go. Libraries are part of the larger book ecosystem and collectively have significant buying power. How can Library Staff push for change in the Publishing Industry . How can Library Staff push for and change out, sorry in the Publishing Industry . Any thoughts there . Its the same role in many ways as a bookseller, in no time in . You have the community, people coming and want to participate in the book. So what you look like. What youre buying many copies of. How you are presenting them through the programs you run around those books. They are involved and how welcome someone is or isnt in that safe. And thats a place to start. Who is a space for . Who are we creating the spaces for . I think when you actually design spaces the Real Community in mind and a real openness to what that community might want to receive culturally, i think that you start a conversation. I mean librarians are doing gods work, honestly. I dont have a whole lot of critique for the Library Community on the diversity issue because that is ground zero for where people go to get books. I love the librarians. I think you do walk into the library sometime and say who is the set up for . Who did this . A continue. If you are a librarian like nurture young, empower them. Young people know, they know more than we give them credit for. They are living, they are building a more equitable world. I think sharing power when you have two generations that are doing to totally having two different relationships about equity think we have to allow equity who are far more progressive on these issues to do things on their own and independently pretty think that built a lot of spaces as well. But again i love the Library Pretty much denied a lot to critique. And think mentorship is just one of the big takeaways from this top of all. We have another question from erica who is a writer. What other activism needs to happen in order to throw back the curtain on these other tough jobs within publishing . I dont know that there is much to add beyond but we have said. If you have something regina . I really do feel like it will be super advantageous to not only be redundant but to do something with Publishing Institute. Because you can talk about all of the different positions that are available. Within the industry. I think that having people come in and talk to young people about what opportunities exist, a lot of it is access, knowledge and being able to see it. I agree with that. Just quickly what to say, i worked at nonprofits for 19 years part i have never worked at a publisher. That is not what i have done. I still cant make heads or tails of who does what at the publishing group. Im trying to figure that out at night on zoom having people work there, who does what, who works on which imprint and wet and how all works together. It is totally obscure. It is totally opaque. There is no way figured out from the outside. I literally have the job. The fight cant figure out what in the world, then how would anyone else . And how do you even start to address those issues when theres no transparency about how it works . I have to say that as a little bit flabbergasted. I might could is what where . How does this work . Is like that internally and externally. How many times i have to explain what a literary agent actually does . Then there are multiple ways to approach the business. To tell you i am speechless how little i know and how hard it is to figure out. Its not because people dont want to tell you. Its not that kind of thing prodigious very complex and there is nothing you can read or download thats going to be like oh cool got it got it got it. This is exactly how works for these are the jobs is what needs to happen, we made this point earlier we really need to do a job of talk about what her industry really is. For not just ourselves, not just for future staff to know how books are made. Two important. Dance organizations have classes in schools to explain what dances to the people. Imagine if dance was like oh, we are like books and every child needs us to learn how to read. We have such access this is such a big part of everyones life. And the fact that they truly are the magical objects that we dont really understand how their meter where they came from even the public industry if you asked five different editors how to build a book, youre going to get five different answers. Absolutely. Weve been working for different places. Somethings are just fundamental that that is challenging. And i think why did you ever grow up to be a book jacket designer when you know those jobs exist . It is difficult. Sounds like we should be inviting any the big five publishers that are watching to support the reinvigoration of howards program. [laughter] are right, plumbing read another question. I have an author, what can be done to make pursuing publishing careers successful too passionate and talented firstgeneration College Graduates and those from workingclass backgrounds. And also those helping to contribute to their families. It comes from the iowa writers workshop. I think that the industry is going to be changing dramatically. With covid 19. I think its going to change in ways that we cannot even imagin imagine. I think working at home is going to become prevalent for certain functions. And i think that might open the door to some constituencies that years before have not felt publishing to be attractive. So i dont know the definitive pronouncements can be made right now about how to bring people in. But i do know that the industry is changing dramatically and people should keep their eyes up keep your eyes open for opportunity. And in fact, because of the pandemic, i have a fellow who is working from belgium. And i also have someone who is in washington d. C. As seven agent right now who is in san diego. So i know that from an agency perspective, they are definitely going to be much more openness to people working remote. And i am internally building a system so i can educate people about the Agency Business and how to become an agent even if they are not on site. That is great. I feel like theres some, what weve learned from this situation that we are all figuring out how to work in other places the new york. The final question is, long and complicated. I have been reading it and still have not quite found the question. So i think im going to go back to something we talked about a little bit yesterday which has to do with language. And the language surrounding some of our goals and publishing to be more inclusive. Licia talked a little bit about it. But up the language of supremacy but how to make things more inclusive on that particular level. Is that something you would want to speak about . Unit lately ive been reading a lot about the changing of the guards for obvious reasons. And people talk about what we need to do in publishing. In the we that they are using is not the we that includes me. I think that is michael b talk about, we are talking about americas literature. Rights, the worlds literature. So when we are saying us and them, it is up to us to do this to make sure they feel this way. We failed its over. We still havent started the conversation. With the talking language it actually acknowledges people have shared as opposed to im going to give you a seat at my table. I must speak of it as such pretty think secondarily, industry wise because there is a majority and a very small minority, the majority talks about books, by the other as though it is the other. How can you sell that . You are not selling to a nether community we are all one community. And i just dont understand, some of the words i hear or read in the newspaper or that people say to me and discussions on panels and how other i feel not because my feelings are hurt. My feelings arent hurt. Worse things have been said to be worse things have been done to me. But the point has not been taken, this very loud, very moral, clear point that has been made over, and over, and over, and over again for decades. And the fact that with our language betray was sold under sin the very fundamentals of working in an us and them environment means that you still believe your self to be supreme grade which you are in fact not. The thing we have to appreciate is the very language of diversity and inclusion is itself problematic. It is a master narrative. Who was willing to diversify for what . Who is doing the including and for what . Scenic theres more in that language is one word which is equity. Okay . Diversity, inclusion and equity. And publishers have had a hard time with that keyword. Yes. Absolutely. Cant find a lie. Thats what they say. I think that is a wonderful note to end the questions on. I think vivian is going to be coming back in. It is 4 00 oclock. I want to thank you all for participating, for lending your voices, for being part of this discussion. It has been a really wonderful, educational and helpful, thank you. Thank you for having his. Thank you everyone that was incredibly powerful conversation. So lisa, nicole, thank you so much. Adrienne and aspirin we are so grateful for your moderating. We also want to thank those who have designed this entire series about looking at me get to the lens of race. The producer, the video we posted either later tonight or tomorrow you can find it on aspen at aspen digital. Well have our link on the twitter accounts. For those of you who register we will also email this to you. Thank you so much everybody will see you next time. is so important and why were hosting this conversation. During this hour well have a lively discussion that includes two of he most articulate dynamic observed of American Culture today, author of the plot to change america mike gonzalez, and michael knowles, and following the conversation between mike and michael well do a q a session which ill