Transcripts For CSPAN2 Discussion On Diversity In The Publis

Hosting. Good night. And now on cspan2 book tb, more television for serious readers. Hi everybody i am Vivian Schiller and i the aspen institute. Really glad you could be with us today. The near times bestseller list can often be a mirror of the national psyche. As such, this year it seems to reflect the nation going through an awakening on matters of race. Books written by people of color and about matters of race and racism have filled those lists. Both fiction and nonfiction. That is the good news. Sadly the Publishing Industry does not always reflect that reality. The recent twitter protest publishing paid me expose a major pay disparity in the industry between black and nonblack authors. Theres a few people of color who served as publishing staff or literary agents. And even fewer who operate at decisionmaking levels. And for those who are published, sometimes the marketing exposure can be suboptimal. And this year of National Reckoning on racism, we are going to take a look at the book industry. The book Publishing Industry. Whether it needs to bring more racial diversity to the fields. This is our part of changing the narrative series. Which look set issues of race through the media. We have upcoming, another program on the entertainment industry. We explored the challenges. But importantly we also look at the new possibilities this case for publishing more book about people of color. Just a reminder, this is a live program. The among our moderator and our fantastic panelists. Slow but this is q a. Anytime starting now and enter this question. It is jus just as lamour texture and context of the question. We will then pureed the question and provide those to the moderator will pose us to the panelist rates of anytime click on it starting now now will introduce our panelists we can get started part b have with us regina brooks, the founder president of serendipity literary based in brooklyn her agent is represented and established a diverse base of awardwinning clients in adult and young adult diction, nonfiction and childrens literature. Nicole is the author of here comes the sun, and maritimes notable book in the year in 2017 land literary award winner her bestselling second novel, is a 2020 award winner and near times editors choice, a Financial Times Critic Choice a stone well books choice and best book of the year list. Lisa lucas has been the executive director of the National Book foundation and is the incoming Senior Vice President and publisher of pantheon and shokin books. Prior to joining foundation, lisa served as the publisher, a nonprofit online magazine focused on writing that explores the intersection of art and politics within international and diverse focus. We have with us also Harold Mcdonald the Vice President executive editor and Penguin Random House Speaker where he has worked in various editorial capacities for more than three decades. Among the distinguished authors he has published are jack henry abbott, james baldwin, cat bases, henry louis gates, friendly with, Toni Morrison and many, many more. And finally, i am so pleased to introduce our moderator today, adrian roeder. She is the head of the executive director of aspen word purchase also the author of the memoir wild game which is development for film. During his 15 years the Publishing Industry, adrian founded a literary magazine with filmmaker friends within acquiring editor and h h books and served as a judge with other literary context for it shes been published far and wide literary arts nonprofit with the aspen institute. Which has the aspen words literary pride. Or so pleased to have you with this, my beloved colleague and i turned over over to you and the other panelists. Thank you so much vivian for that introduction. In thank you into all of you, our panelists, and to all of you who are zooming in today, for your interest in changing the narrative something long overdue in the Publishing Industry. As an fyi, for all of you watching, this group met yesterday to have a little pregame conversation. And we decided as much as possible, we would like to make you a forward thinking solution driven conversation. So in other words, while we are not going to sugarcoat any of the facts or the historical situation surrounding racial inequality that exist in publishing, we are also not going to spend too much time restating and rehashing the obvious. The obvious being, one, the Publishing Industry has always been predominately whites, 76 according to a recent survey. And that figure skews higher when it comes to the highest positions in the industry and two, that as a result of that power structure and this has literary culture, black writers and other writers of color that have had a harder time getting published with there are of course other issues, vivian mentioned that we will have lots and lots to talk about. Fields important to acknowledge i am aye woman and am sure have blind spots in terms of my own privilege we only to do that. Again on all of us on this call no, we are lucky enough to work in one of the most fascinating, exciting, Wonderful Industries of literature and storytelling drew you to a literary world, needs to do now to open up opportunities to people of color and regina i thought i would start with you maybe you talk a little bit about your experience at Howard University press book institute. I think about the genesis of how very serendipitous. That is the name of my company i was going to this Publishing Program at Howard University and really change my life changed my world upside down. Ive always had kind of a background interest, i say background. Background interest in books. Just interviewed probably about a week ago. I was trying to think, gosh regina you have always been a person is gone to the library. This library right right on the corner from my house. And i realize, asked my mom to go upstairs there is a certificate. It was one id given to james and baldwin and award. [laughter] so ive always been a part of the publishing space. But it ended up at the Howard University Publishing Institute. That institute no longer exist today. Its 27 years ago. That is how i was introduced to the publishing marketplace. As an engineer, i started working out for john wylie sons. I started in sales. And eventually they move me to it new york and i became editor. I worked as an editor in the engineering discipline, mechanical, chemical, electrica electrical. But it is so funny because again just thinking back there to people that i met at that Publishing Institute that are still in the business today. One of them is a Business Partner now. One was marie brown shes a literary agent, i also met sherrill hudson, she is a publisher with her husband wade. And they again are still in the business. So something to be said about the longevity of being in the business as a black person. Theres also something to be said the fundamentals that were learned at that Publishing Institute. That no longer exist today. When i think about what kind of things could the industry do to bring more people into the business, and also sustain them. Think of being awesome idea there other institutes that exist like the Denver Institute institutes, but i think that numerous publishers today are trying to figure out how to get to the talent . How do we get to the talents. Theres no bigger and better way than to have the institute. And i did read, just today that and publishing perspectives that the echo in partnership created a publishing diversity fellowship which is new i believe part of combi publishing course something that segues to what lisa was talking about yesterday about the bounty of jobs in publishing the udo necessarily all know are there and talk about that lisa . I probably would have been a literary scout probably is a 28yearold i did start working so i was employed at 33. He went outside the industry moves a real education all the things that no one had told me. I think we have to be thinking about diversifying with decisionmakers when you think about marketing folks hr and all of those things that go into sales has an imprint. It has a title of an author. And i think this person made this book. But it takes an actual team to make a lot of these books. And if you dont have diversity to every level, you dont have a diversity of information the authors and the editors back to be thinking really broadly that made an entire Team Possible or an imprint possible or publishing possible. Or the agents representation. Regina is so important. She had to really educate people about what books are. I think sometimes they work their own i think one of our jobs is to work with teenagers. In becoming film makers. Think the most important thing we did was to be mystified would it look like to articulate below the line jobs. Understanding what was happening and we are happy to make it seemed like we make magic. Like everybody who does art is like our magical art form that i work in and no one could ever figure out what we do. And that all obscured that there are roles for people to fill. And that there are job trajectories. I think that a parent of a child might not support them if they go be an author or go be an editor. They might understand what it means to be in hr and a huge corporation. [inaudible] to work in the arts with a law degree or whatever it is. because we are telling those stories and i think we think about only aand the artist first but there is so much that has to happen for that art to live and we need to educate people about those as well. Maybe we can turn to the artist, to nicole, ask you what your career journey was like and was it hard for you to find traction in the industry in the beginning finding an agent and editor, with your first novel . Definitely it was a challenge. Be enlisted by the industry, i knew nothing about the industry. Im coming from a public medical background so of course fourthgeneration immigrants you are told thats what you ought to do but yes i knew i always wanted to be a writer. I didnt have any avenue whatsoever, did not know any races growing up, so when i came to the u. S. And of course at the college and the whole msa program, i was surprised i was one of two black students in the program. Long story short we are told getting agents are the hardest thing im thinking thats the only hurdle you have to jump through to get into the realm of publishing and thats far from the truth. I think as mentioned, you have the ait took me a while. The person ended up telling you to check out abtake out the jamaican tactile in my book because a woman to woman from michigan would never read it. I thought that was the end all be all i thought i had to do that to be successful so i did. Of course reading my book it didnt feel like mine, luckily i had a mentor and she was the head of hearts and right where had a fellowship. She said let this one go, as a writer its a part of the game to get rejection. Go back to the drawing board, get on the computer and start a thats what i ended up doing. I ended up writing a whole book and resubmitting to agents. I went to the writers database and a couple weeks that i got hits from three agents. I was so happy that julie barer was so, my mentor, very important to have mentors. One thing my reader said to me was that your agent its like a relationship. A lot of young writers out there athats what youre told you ought to get to be successful but its important to have somebody who gets your work and especially as a black immigrant writer tapping into very dark issues, sexuality, all these things the person has to get it to sell the book well. I had the luck of having that happen but not many publishing boards got onto it. Here comes the sun was a hard sell. And spots the only publishers that latched onto the book was katie adams from live ai was getting messages its too commercial. So in terms of diversifying publishing, i feel like if i had more black editors who were looking at the work and said, yes, we get that, we understand the importance of seeing the other side of the socalled paradise that people see but bob marley and all of these things but i was getting deeper into who we are as a fantasy and i feel like nobody got that except for one woman who happens to be right, two men who happen to be white. It suggests the importance of allies as well. One thing that happened in 2020 that i was really happy about given my foot was in the door, got the pack deal, lisa was coming on, he or she has in her new position, there is dana kennedy aberroll, regina brooks, the young me did not know these people, the young nicole coming up i knew nothing about that. Now its more in this rail on this level, these individuals are no place in higher positions i interviewed dana kennedy two weeks ago for zora magazine and she said, it has to happen from the top. It has to trickle down but the top is where it happens first. I honestly believe that and im so happy that she is sitting at that talk and looking at the people, forget msa, a writer coming into the game you know you could see yourself in other pages you can do it as well. You can achieve that because there are people behind the closed doors that are also rooting for you. Thats really where im coming from. Thank you. Erroll, youve obviously been in the industry for some time, 40 years. Why has the industry been so very slow to diversify . And what other initiatives need to be developed to achieve greater inclusivity . There is so much fake news out there about publishing in general and publishers have done such a lousy job accounting for and describing the industry that i dont know where to start. Let me begin by saying the publishing with literary publishing per se because publishing is a huge universe of category that most people dont Pay Attention to, the press is mostly interested in literally a commercial fiction. I think publishers can increase diversity and inclusion by the advertising jobs in a multiplicity of categories and a multiplicity of function. I echo what lisa says that along every aspect of the publishing chain, we should think about it, reflecting america, reflecting how america looks. Right now the emphasis is strictly on decisionmakers. That should not be. If its going to be on decisionmakers it should be on decisionmakers in publicity and marketing and sales and the bookselling community. Thats very true and it is such an enormous industry. I would like to for a moment turn toward the very current moment we are existing in. I think we can agree that its a unique moment in time or a special moment right now but in recent weeks black authors including isabel wilkerson, brooke bennett, abram conti, kennedy and Michelle Alexander amongst many other have surged to the top of the bestseller list. I know all of us wish that this moment hasnt been brought on by this racial reckoning that took place in the aftermath of the murders of innocent black people, george floyd, breonna taylor, ahmaud arbery, this since this moment feel different to you . And maybe erroll, we can keep going with you. Does it still feel like abdo you think this one is going to last . Does it feel like a moment . What can white and black publishing professionals do to sustain recognition of authors with color so its not just a list that winds down. It is a long list and i dont believe its a reflection on the history of publishing. One remembers that books by black writers were hugely popular in the 60s and 70s during the Civil Rights Movement and during the black power movement. That went away. Right now we are at a moment where the narrative is still being defined by a certain degree abto a certain degree by people in power so that those books that are on the bestseller list are there mostly to educate whites. Whites have taken on these books as if they were selfhelp program. I believe that interest in these books will continue weight but i do think that their appearance on the bestseller list has increased interest in acquiring more books like those among publishers. Okay. Regina, why do you think that black story is have been ab this is and how it works in the Music Industry for instance, what can we do from your perspective or from the literary agents perspective to continue to change this . You are on mute. Sorry about that. Thats a big question. There are a number of different ways to approach answering that question. I think the first thing echoes back to what was said before is that its very difficult for people to penetrate the market place if there is a lack of understanding of the content. As literary agent one of the things im consistently asked, editors, is if you know that there is an audience or book and you know that the book is going to sound but the book is not messerli something that ab not necessarily something you would read or pick up at the bookstore would you acquire that book . More often than not, editors say if it doesnt resonate with me, and its not a book that i feel like i can truly champion, then im not the best editor for that book. There is a true understanding from an agent and editor standpoint why they might say that. But that is a big hurdle because most of the people, again, that are in these positions of power to make decisions, are white. That doesnt mean that white people cant enjoy books that are written by people of color but generally speaking, the people that they do raise up and buy books from our celebrities better people of color. [laughter] so that is one big obstacle. It starts in the editorial side. Another thing that i hear too is the fact that even if they were interested in buying the book, understanding how to position the book once it is acquired, thats a big issue. What do we mean by position . How do we get it out into the market place so that the audience that is going to be interested in this book actually knows about it. This is both in the childrens, young adults, adult marketplace, all of the different areas within publishing and do we ha