I am the Vice President of the open Society Foundation that is hosting this event. And i should say, that we are going to talk to around 45 minutes, give or take. And that we have enough time for another 45 minutes of questions. Those questions that you would like to share with eric and maya and me should be sent to questions at open Society Foundations. Org. Questions and open Society Foundations. Org party can also do this by twitter. If you really need to, you can do it via facebook. We are recording this event. It is being live cast. And it is going to be quite a show. We have someone i have known and admired for a very long time, mile wylie is with us as a discussant. She has a very long time civil rights lawyer and activist, former chair of new york cities civilian Complaint Review board. Former Corporation Counsel to his honor, william de blasio, a University Professor at the school and ongoing legal analyst for both nbc news and msnbc. And so its a great pleasure, maya to be with you here. And the person of honor, Eric Alterman, who was a distinguished professor at Brooklyn College in the english faculty, a person who has had a fortnightly column in the nation since i think i was in diapers. But it continues going on liberal media, eric has been the recipients of fellowships and awards over the years, testament to his important work as a journalist, is a historian. He has written many books. From bruce springsteen, to liberalism to the American Media and this question of president ial lying that we are going to interrogate today. So welcome eric, welcome maya. And welcome everyone who has joined this live cast. I thought, erica could begin by a pretty general opening question to you about why it is that you wrote this book. What did you learn from this . Because for the dissertation online some years ago at stanford that became a book some 15 years ago online. So what made you return to the theme of mendacity looking across the gamut of American History and what did you get out of this . So over to eric. Guest thank you so much lenny, thank you maya i am deeply honored by your presence here. I mean that. And thank you to the foundation of course. I appreciate that question because it is a very meaningful question to me. Why i wrote this book. I was actually under contract to write a different book when they talk of Donald Trumps election took place. And that january i went away for my birthday with my daughter for a little vacation. And i was reading ron char nelson book on the warburg family. A very important wealthy German Jewish family. A significant gynt number of whom remained in germany throughout the hitler years and ended up dying one way or another. And i was not in my mind comparing trumped to hitler, still am not. But i was amazed that all of the different signs that they were able to ignore and commit the family in convincing themselves everything was going to be okay when it was not going to be okay. I had this thought then that i wanted to counsel myself in this period of trumps presidency. Because it was something unusual and no one knew where it was going to go. And i thought, what do i know . I know president ial lying because i wrote my dissertation and my previous book which was a case study, its like this but the begins with George Washington and goes through donald trump. So i thought, that is the contribution i could make. And that way, when my daughter who just graduated college, no pressure, but once she had children one day and they say daddy what did you do during the trunk presidency i will hand in this book. Thats actually how it happens. So now back to work on the original. And for the second part of your question, i will tell you i have a phd in American History. I have written a lot of books that are mostly history books. Even the springsteen book was a history book. But and most of my writing has been either about the media or u. S. Foreign policy. So the cold war and the empire and the way that made president s lie, i knew that that did not stop me i was ready for that. What shocked me was a centralia sea of White Supremacy. In the history of the need for president ial lying. If you asked me in the pretrunk. , or to the two main drivers of president ial lying, number one is White Supremacy. Because we are not actually a nation were all men are created equal much less all men and women are created equal. We are a nation where a lot of people have to be put in certain places so that other people can feel superior to them. And then has been a constant theme of American History from slavery through you know, the expansion into latin america, the philippines, et cetera et cetera. It all had to be done that context. That is what the president couldnt tell the truth about how the people who were nonwhite were being treated because it was in direct contradiction with the fundamental myths of this country. The second driving force which change slightly over time and maybe it changed fundamentally under trunk, we will talk about that later, begins of the need for constant expansion began very early with jefferson and lewis and clarke and so forth. And it becomes, when we run out of territory to expand and north america, Frederick Jackson turners great thesis which i believes 1896 we start expanding overseas and become an empire. In following world war ii, we get this definition of National Security which encompasses our empire. But it is completely limitless. And again, that idea of constant expansion, of empire, of the fact that other countries are not allowed to take their own form of government because it conflicts with our idea of National Security. That also conflicts with the myths that we are taught as schoolchildren are expected to believe our politicians say. So all of these things, come together and trapper president s into lying. Almost no president has been able to avoid the formula of having to lie about White Supremacy and empire National Security. Sue and so eric let me push you a little bit on the question of lying specifically. Because what you just described in terms of manifest destiny, in terms of at least the implication that three fist the clause in the constitution, this of course is nothing new. Tell me what you feel is new or novel or distinct about this master category of lying that is going to add to the broader understanding. Even if synthetically of American History. Sue and first volley went to to say this is alcohol. This is ivanka martini, unless the to be for me at least a celebration of this three years i put into this book, it will be four years. And im just so grateful to the world that no other Important News was produced today so everybody could focus on it. Its an important event. [laughter] i was worried about it but its okay. I havent looked at my computer. Listen, when a president lies, people lie a lot. People have no idea how common lying is. Most of them think of themselves as lawyers but everybody lies. The shocker is men live more often to make themselves feel better. And women like to persuade other people. As a rule, the odyssey there were exceptions. When a president lies its different than any other kind of life. Because president s create its own form of reality. When a president lies people react to it. Instead of reacting to what the president is lying about they react to the lie. So they end up doing with a problem that has been light about in the initial problem that was light about becomes unchecked. If you create a dynamic of lying, lying, and lying because you let the problem fester. What he found some interesting last week, about one of trumps lies was when he was asked about the exposure in lebanon is a talk to some great generals. They told him it was probably an attack, a bomb. And everybody ignored it because no one takes them seriously. In those president of the united states. Today news aoe have to investigate . But this is a new situation. And it has different a lot of problems associated with that. There different problems. If theres any other president said that it would be a crisis. Host thank you for that helpful clarification. Let me turn to maya. I am wondering, maya, if we do think about trump for a second, nobly in a blaze in the great history, think we all recognize her huge structural preconditions and structural pressures that enable someone like donald trump to exist. Awful as some may say he may be. I am wondering, maya, if you could talk a little bit about those enabling conditions and terms of what created the opportunities for someone like trump to be as it were, prevaricate her and chief . Will thank you lenny. I also just want to say congratulations eric as someone whos writing ive always appreciated enjoyed and learned from. Its an Exciting Book an important time, so thank you. And also thank you lenny, it is like a homecoming to be part of one of these events. And i wanted to say happy birthday george the. Someone who has been a victim of lying with the being antisemitism. Its something that is in erickson book. Not going to tell you all the things you says you go out and buy it. Some of them include the fact without recently play out in the impeachment hearing of donald trump. With a party system that has failed to hold its own accountable. The democratic process that was unlike what we saw say it with nixon, the tremendous liar and watergate, right . The party was willing to say you have to protect the institutions of democracy not the person of the president. The shifts we seen and the book shifts to the components was less about the republican establishment was the willingness to embrace him despite not liking him. Because of the fear of the base that very much voted for and accepted a donald trump as a liar. Because i think one of the things that is striking to me about donald trump as he always lies. He was lying years before he ran for president. It was racist. He has been smith, full disclosure friend of mine. Ben smith wrote to his staff about what they could say on social media during the campaign that they could say donald trump was a mendacious racist because it was a factual statement. That is an astounding thing for a newsroom editor to say to staff around facts, right . And how important it was of someone in the media willing to make that kind of statement and stand by it when it got publicized beyond his newsroom. Eric really points to the way even some longtime, very conservative commentators like a Charlie Sykes or george wills kinda bemoan the fact has become part of the disinformation system on the quote unquote news reporting is if there is something called neutrality in the context of boldfaced lies. And the difficulty the newsroom has an calling them out. Its meant to underscore what eric said about racism. Because there is no question that in my view that the core of the white supremacist model that has helped enable a donald trump to the white house which includes Voter Suppression by the way and very intentional efforts to undermine the vote which may explain why hes in the white house to begin with. With his break from the southern strategy. Remember the southern strategy, part of the lying and history round White Supremacy was we are going to uphold it, but we will use dog whistles. We will use only those phrases and terms that folks who want to uphold White Supremacy can hear. Those who were offended by it wont hear it. And we will get away with it. And donald trump really broke that model. The economic populace. That is the break from the tradition model of we will be covid in appealing to espouse White Supremacy. And to be globalist and freemarket economies. That is the deal that donald trump broken networks. Can i ask, maya you touched on the question of journalism, mentioned ben smith. In erics book as you say he cites a number of journalists pretty takes peter baker a bit to task because, to your mind, eric, lying is not just about intentionality. And so many journalists, as i think you correctly notes, feel that they have to maintain neutrality because they cant necessarily prove intent. And so in your book, you take a more capacious sense of lying. The window click clued disinformation misinformation and the like. And not just intent. I am wondering, if we spoke to some of the selfrespecting journalist that maya just mentioned, would they accept your more capacious sense . What would the journalists feel itself that Mainstream Media would reject it outright which is one reason i wrote the book. That inability to point out the president just spoke a falsehoo falsehood, at the time the president is speaking it, is what has empowered, not only trump other president s. To get away with literally murder. I would say, ive made a lot of important points that like to try to speak to you look at the First Century and a half of American History, buys that the president told were kind of consensus lies. You mentioned earlier manifest destiny. William cope, she talked about a lot he was the most consequential liar of that era. The manager to hold them to account, interesting enough. For example Abraham Lincoln a two term congressman who his job for that reason. He did not run for reelection because he had become a dissident by trying to hold polk accountable in the mexicanamerican war. For most of this period, manifest destiny and this expansionary. In keeping the world safe for democracy, there is a consensus on behalf of the lives that were told. I think it began to break with Ronald Reagan i would say. Because nixon was held to account. With nixon the system work. With Ronald Reagan, reagan would like, he would speak nonsense all the time. I want to give a hat tip if thats not a sexist term to may maya. On that racist dog was open. Because reagan announced, mind you member what town he announced in . Stu in philadelphia. As if he wasnt saying anything. For a variety of reasons are so cautious about holding the president account, the president has historically had a incredibly wide birth to live or use this racist dog whistles. [inaudible] the case of reagan said nonsens nonsense. Ive never left california. And it was well he makes up these stories and he believes them. He is disengaged. But reagan because the media are not one to take on a president say this is nonsense at the moment the president says something is false if the call it out as false otherwise its true because the president said it so reagan began by speaking nonsense. The immediate was shocked by the election the same way they were shocked by trump selection. They were afraid, i would say that the current moment there moving and began with Ronald Reagan. At then took in a norm is jump forward with Newt Gingrich who recognized that if he was going to use the most outlandish language and craziest again the press would do it they had done, what they did to joe mccarthy. They would say Newt Gingrich says you are a comic, good for nothing, liar, homosexual, whatever. What you say . And you say i am not any of those things. And then the press print both and lets the reader decide. So i dont think thats useful. Its clearly not useful when you get to donald trump. Masers running for president saying the president is not born in this country. And that Global Warming is a plot to destroy American Manufacturing made up by the chinese. And then he lied about having said that. The media they decided to do about these lies is either print both sides, trump says this, obama says that print 52nd calm somewhere else, newspapers print Fact Checking columns. They basically get away with it. But it does not work unless you point out that is not true in the time the president says it because again of the president says if it takes a life of its own. I give donald trump credit, he said she is a lying genius. Even recent people been talking about the great interviews that Chris Wallace did, i could go to those interviews and point out dozens and dozens of lies because no one can keep up with this mans ability to live. And the lies are so embedded in our culture its like a swamp. As trying to break through them. Spinning look, lets ask if we could, it was great it was great. Lets zoom out for a Second Period because we are swimming in a sea misinformation disinformation, propaganda, at every level at every turn im wondering maya on how the hell do we get out of this i said before the foundation there is no silver bullets. We are not returning to some idyllic area that never existed. Its a matter of how do we deal with, tamp down where necessary, miss information and disinformation. But we are not going to transcend it. We are not going to overcome it. I am curious, maya, where you see all of what eric is talking about in terms of fundamental lies by executive office holders. In the world of disinformation that we inhabit right now. What you see the future looking like . I think it looks like my cat. [laughter] and all roads lead to my cat. Seriously its a very important question pretty think a lot of the analysis that eric is pointing to that is in the book, and a sense can be translated also into a roadmap. Meeting it is certainly encouraging and we should be encouraged by the fact that we have a National Discussion for example about what is truth and what our lives. Unfortunately as the context of donald trump who lie so frequently, but the fact that we have a Washington Post, with a running catalogue over what are we up to 18000, i have lost track. Steam at 20000. Lies and misleading statements from the president of the united states. I think the fact that we have seen, and i think we are seeing the public start to respond to the accountability of elected leaders on protecting the institution of democracy as a part of that. I dont think we can get away from some of the Underlying Research that points to for example, why people are more likely to believe conspiracy theories for example. And anxiety is a huge psychological predictor of the willingness to believe in conspiracies. And by the way conspiracy belief is rooted in one particular ideology or another. There are left wing conspiracy theories. There are right wing conspiracy theories, and all matter in the middle. But the ability for American People to get acknowledgment and validation on anxiety, to get an ability to be supported in having more human connections. Particularly to people who are different. We are more segregated now that we have been and years and we are going in the wrong directions on racial segregatio segregation. But it also means that we are not having the kind of experiences with one another that create the form of relationships that also help us navigate some of the lies we tell about other people. And i think in this context for instance the donald trump, eric outlined some of these lies in the book around caging children and they flat out denial of our lying eyes in the form of seeing the images. And him claiming it was the policies of the past. But there was a very troubling trend in some of the Opinion Research that showed there were some americans who actually saw this as a rational policy. So not even whether is truth or not truth but the dehumanization of some people in the world who instead of being seen as folks that are experiencing a humanitarian crisis, and something as basic as parental rights. Books, we lost maya for a moment. Lets give her three seconds, i know she was having a little bit of internet problem. Alright eric, let me just as we wait for maya to come back in, it could be that cat. It could be the catch. Let me just raise with you, eric, something that maya was saying. Its a sort of normative set of questions. What would you like at the end of the day . Or a historian you had the first draft of history in the 9h draft of history, not many are able to do both. What would you like ultimately from a prescriptive to the extent you want to be prescriptive, what would you like people reading this book come away with, outside of simply everyone lies. Is there anything prescriptive you want people to learn from this . Well you know im also a professor and evince a college. And i remember how little i remember from what i learned in college as a professor. So the first thing us in the first in class is, i say three things. Number when i teach them the difference between was and were. Then i teaching the difference between less and fewer. I want you to learn these grammatical. And then i say dont expect you to remember really any of the facts you learned in this class. But i want you to learn critical coaching to be able to evaluate your sources. That is what my work is all about. It is about how to choose who you are going to believe. And live your life on the basis of those needs. It is hard work. Ive been very lucky. When i was in college i had a column in the College Newspaper and i had great professors. One of them wrote this book it was very meaningful to me. And basically have the same job i had when i was in college. And on the one hand i am studying history and trying to make sense of how we got to where we are. And how i got to be where i am. And im trying to apply that history to sameday events. I need is a very. I have written about this. I use it in college, epistemology. There is a conflict in the assumption of journalists and historians. We can say about the historian is the adjuster journalists. The most insulting thing that you can do a journalist is its history. You cannot understand that without the other and vice versa. So i have this nice Little Mission in my life were trying to do both at once. But if you ask me what is my prescription for journalism, one will be to survive. Lets not leave that aside. Will be two things. Number one what is the context of the issue that youre talking about. Not did what did he say what did she say. What is the overall context. Not even what is news. I dont care what is news. New is not necessary important. The second question is what is true . What you believe to be true . Theres a third person, and then its very complicated. What we want from our journalism is people who spend a lot of time trying to understand and tell us what is reality to make the fixers in our head match the world outside. It is hard work. I dont deny that. And the problem is, that is in both cases. To the work of the historian and the journalist. Because journalism is about what is new. And historians about working so hard by the time you get them they no longer matter. This book is somewhere between 500,000 footnotes. And i wrote a dissertation long time ago on this topic but most am relying on other historians. Based on the work, im trying to apply the lessons of history to a contemporary situation. And when you do that, its a very different picture then you get even in the best newspapers on their best days. Host as an english professor not to correct your error, they are actually endnotes in this particular book. But that is neither here nor there. Keep going i would like if its alright, with got a lot of questions a lot of good questions that have been pouring in. If its alright, my and eric, like to be in with a couple may be two by two but some but we will do singly. Some of that eric actually mentioned earlier he teaches at princeton hes the history faculty there was an analyst for cnn. Julian asks, as we evaluate the legacy of president s comment as a consequence of a president ial lie matter . Have there is not a great policy consequence like vietnam, after the resolution is it less significant . I think i might just stop there before the next one that is a big question. Maya, eric, please. Look i am black in america. What that means theres always consequences. But sometimes they are not immediate. Because sometimes they are consequences that have to be of our making. Coming from a community that has the force reckoning with the history we are talking about earlier, the force reckoning with the White Supremacy that continues to manifest itself today. Just lost a maya for a second print shes going to come back again, eric just pick up. Guest will it is a good question. I got two answers on different levels. One is, mention the introduction of my book, its all consequences. If you look at how historians rate as president s has nothing to do it all. Big layers are at the top and people with lies jimmy carter, barack obama are and it is all about who was successful. Historians as well as the public are very much willing to forgive give lies as long as they work out. I wish that werent the case but it is definitely the case. A friend of mine, a historian, Michael Kazen wrote me at georgetown and he asked did roosevelt lie in the 1940s about getting us into war . He wanted to get us into war against the nasis. And when he didnt want wasnt interested. Remind me of a famous quote from senator fulbright who said that roosevelt lied in a noble way and is almost perfect lie that got us into vietnam it was a catastrophe. Now to write my first book is a president should never lie and im taking that back. Read the book its a good book. That part in taking back. Mightve lied to save civilization for it im cant say president should never lie. Im glad roosevelt lied about his intentions about getting us into war. Im glad he lied to get us into war which he did. Although Lyndon Johnson did very much the same thing and got us into a catastrophic war. John kennedy, the very same case he lied about solving the cuban missile crisis. He was much more debit us then he admits to. He made a deal the russians that he sworn everyone on the cabot were he didnt make any widow made it even weaker deal if he had to. He was going to prevent that Nuclear Catastrophe no member what. Interestingly, he lied about making the deal. And Lyndon Johnson, his Vice President never knew about the deal the secret deal. So was living under the mystic kennedy had been eyeball to eyeball with the russians and didnt blink. And he went into vietnam eyeball to eyeball didnt blink because he felt like he had to on this actually the reason i wrote my first book. Because of that particular lie. We got caught evan vietnam because he had to be as macho as his predecessor. So lying is a very complicated matter. Like i said you cant just rule and say dont lie because we allow the time. At the very beginning of the book or we are taught great it is that jacob lied about his birthright to his father isaac to steal it from esau. Then of course it would be no moses if the midwife had not lied about the israelite child. Lies and noble eyes we understand that. Very hard to understand the consequences of lying before the lie takes place. But i think the job of journalists and intellectuals is to defend the truth. You cant worry about whether its a good lie or a bad lie. The job of scholars and intellectuals was to defend the truth defend the language. One thing donald trump is really should go to jail for commas language jail hes so promiscuous with lines even though he only knows a few words, he misuses them so frequently had tarred to make sense of what hes saying. And if you think about words in a kind of bubble we are all collapsing on one another and thats part of what he gets away with. Everyone always talks about the Washington Post fact checkers. The one guy that hired away from the star, he does not get the credit he deserves. He does it all by himself for cnn. Fascinatingly. 90 of the time the night print daniel bill said that was all a lie. But he has reported out that what the media has done for the first three years of trumps presidency is make him make a lot more sense than he really did. When he gives the speeches and press conferences hes basically speaking nonsense. In the press, when they cover the story they make it sound sensible. I want to give a shout out, i wish my close personal friend, sara cooper who ive never met. If shes watching i would like to be friends with you sara cooper. Because she had shown us how crazy the man sounds when you actually see his words in a row. And i would say that trump, even when he is not exactly line, is lying. Hes been manipulated and lying in such a way the truth becomes. [inaudible] look let me jump in your. I know maya is back. But this is a Perfect Moment to segue into a question we just got from that jerk great joke on us in. And joe writes, does the electric give a hoot . Yes. Do they care or do voters only care about the topics that may elicit president ial lies . What you think maya . Space it i think people care about lies in the things they care about pretty think that goes to some of the points that eric was already making. And they dont care about lies if they just want the president to do with the president is doing. We saw about. Theres a great comedy routine where one of the comedians was going out into an audience of trumps supporters. Any Trump Supporters set i stand by my president because and said something exactly not President Trump said or stood for. Theres a total mismatch with the voters saying what trump said within the voters said will i dont care. As a group that will support no matter what. But i think as we have seen and we should not forget this, there is a vast majority of americans are expressing real concern. Move had gerrymandering, because we have broken fundamentally how peoples voice and vote get registered and count and Elections Come that that dilutes objection and their voice when it comes to these kind of lies. Particularly on things that are important to a diverse American Public. So unless we are willing to address the fact that at least 2010 we have not had an outright and intentional attack on the Voting Rights of people of color in this country, because of who they are more likely to vote fo for. That has deeply undermined the ability of the American Public to register in a way that counts with elected officials. Their concerns about lying. I think that can change. But as we have seen, we have seen the seeds of glides and misinformation being sown around mail in balancing is an effort to erode the American Public to take control back by exercising their rights. And that we have to confront. And we do that by doing and i apologize for getting cut off thanks to my bad optimum cable, but the reality is its a struggle that we have had since the beginning of the country is to make our elected officials reflect our values and our beliefs in a way that is a pluralistic democracy that we in fact are. Sue went great that wasnt anti plug. May ask eric, if you are on board with what maya just thoughtfully said about whether the electric gives the will president ial line . Guest i dont think there is an electorate anymore. I dont think we really are a country, a single country anymore. I think weve divided ourselves into separate fiefdoms. In part thanks to the media, rupert murdoch, fox, breitbart et cetera, these people live in their own world. And they are incredibly dedicated. And it caused a lot of trouble for individuals who go against them. And also for the rest of the media. This is part of what i wrote about in my book. They hassle people its not worth taking them on. In doing so they move the center of american politics further and further to the right to their own territory. So even though you have a right wing media which is fox and everything else, ben shapiro, and all these other organizations now, but the main three stream media has also moved with them. Because the fox makes a lot of money is the highest rated program on cable. So the media, they are in business. They are chasing after the same viewers. So the fact that now is it absurd that Donald Trump Thanks he can win the election by defending can federate statues . I mean whos dedicated to confederate statues even the military and the Republican Party are seeing get rid of them. But john thanks its a winner how can that be even if you have these horrible politics you think obama all kinds of problems. And the reason is, you are living in this bubble that is entirely lost control. By people who were there to a support donald trump and be teach you that the three of us are evil, trying to destroy her and trying to get you. Anti religious and anti god. Its become impossible to break through that. It has to be defeated. It is like tempo, still living in the old world speak of the country but shared values. Traditional parts of patriotism. They can control wisconsin to, or my daughter just graduated. They can control the voting process to a tiny minority, the kinds of people who care. Does anyone know much about confederate monuments . But these people can actually, this kind of minority can control these in the country and destroy our democracy. Can our country survive another year of donald trump is a democracy . I dont think so. The second interesting point is been made by another is that no one in the world thanks donald trump is going to rape popular elective in the next election. The others were not sure hes going to win. Vulnerable aspects of the democratic processes. I would like to see her main stream media treated as a crisi crisis. I have too much on the one hand than the other hand. Host got it. This should to, want to turn to an excellent question from somebody from the university of wisconsin madison. Its underscored for everyone. Hosting this event is obviously a nonpartisan organization. Let me go to this question if i can, eric and maya from chad allen goldberg, professor of sociology at udo madison. He talks about robert park the racist journalist, sociologist, robert park that wrote once the Public Institution should be responsive to Public Opinion in the democracy. But there can be no Public Opinion and thus the persons who compose the public are able to live in think the same world. To eric and maya, what are the implications of president ial lying for the possibility of Public Opinion in the organization of a democratic public . I think eric was speaking to this in the context of the fox news echo chamber. Let me just give you an anecdote. Because it really is about where and how we access information. And whether there is any actual grounding in that information. Member drive between biloxi and new orleans for work post hurricane katrina. And that radio stations along the way, all i was trying to do is pick up music stations, were by and large conservative radio. And in every single station i hit in the entire drive, i heard one set of facts and opinions. Not multiple. And it was by and large one painted immigrants as the worst possible thing that could happen to the country. And particularly as immigrants who would steal our healthcare. Thats obviously not a factually based conversation. It was an emotional one. Is deeply troubling and racist one in my view because it stereotyped a whole group of people. But it also became fundamentally over starred to see in the organizing its healthcare reform as a dominant narrative. Their multiple sources of information and news. I go to rural other parts that are rural, theres often not more than one source of information makes it impossible there is only a bubble of information that is not back to base, that is emotional that is opinion that is not grounded. Which doesnt enable an actual conversation with real people who have different experiences pretty think that is fundamentally the challenge. Sue and eric, anything additional on that . Guest i think i second everything maya just said. Theres a whole faction of the country never hears anything but what fits into the preconceived ideas. And because thats profitable, theres no way to break into it. The second thing though, still i wrote the book when i began it, and 2016 i was very worried about using the word fascism. Because it is such an explosive term. You saw a little bit course its not italy, but there are a lot of techniques that trump is using. And ill think even knows what fascism is i think he just got a feel for it. In those disorganized speaker, disorganized thinker she got some really piercing things to say that come true over time. One appoints she makes that i couldnt help but to reflect on my conclusion is if you destroy the idea of shared knowledge, of shared facts, then you can get away with anything. If you say, trump literally says, the final chapter on trumps presidency is called i dont believe what you hear, its a direct quote from the president. And if you destroy the idea of shared knowledge and shared facts, then you can say anything you want. And again, i dont think trump red fascism, although according he did keep a collection of hitler speaks by his bed. But he does that. And he has appointed a whole group of people. Its on down line, get some crazy guy in the cia and others appointed recently. He competed saying all kinds of nonsense this weekend in the press. And it is destroying shared understanding about reality that we have. And again, its not just the media but the entire establishment. All of us who are privileged enough to be heard in the discourse of foundations to defend these things. And it is not happening. Starting to happen to little bi bit. It became so obvious of what hes trying to do. But it happened for three years and every basic yet thats grea great. Damage has been done. Is not the place for. I might have survived this moment but i am not sure. And my god how did we get here . How to be get to this place . And we had such a dysfunctional compared to germany and italy for goodness sakes. Thats what we defeated. Can i ask you, again i dont want to talk about elections since the foundations non partisan. I refuse to. But if i can just raise one appoints, is a really interesting documentary, its really good talking head and it on a lee atwater. One of these spin doctors that took public debate and threw it into the abyss. We realize the 92 election with clinton and George Herbert walker bush were seeking reelection a date nefarious episode about, i raised lee atwater. That was 88. 88. That was 88 that was successfu successful. Im sorry, thats right 88. Sorry, sorry, sorry. I raised atwaters in struck me as an Inflection Point were for the first time and it maybe it wasnt the first time it seemed as if anything before i guess the wall, whether its a lie, however egregious that i is if its not great, if it didnt move onto the next life. Didnt seem to me, and i would not be told otherwise that in previous elections there is such a nerd kick freeforall of preverification. This seemed to somehow we then from 88 began anew. In line. She read that similarly or not . Which was reagans Vice President i would give without debate. Criswell as a historian things are pretty bad at the beginning of the country. Like Laura Ingraham and tucker carlson, had their personalities in the early part of the centur century. The early part of that history. But things calm down quite a bi bit. And again with reagan, and then as they say with bush and atwater, things started to go awry. That led directly to trump. Part of it was implicit racism with reagans announcement speech and mississippian atwater et cetera. And one thing i am proud of, in my career is that i did not invent the phrase but i found it in a pop dealer eyes did in my book i spent a lot of time with it. It was originally spoken by George Herbert walker bush. The head of the Republican Party at that time. Atwater was the campaign manager. A guy name rick spahn was lost to history except for this quote said that he knew the media word that liberals even know. When he was doing was working the rest. The more you hassle the more likely the rest is likely to throw you a few calls, just to shut you up. And what a conservative movement did, was create the sonorous, incredibly wellfunded structure to hassle the media. To try to get the media to report stories the way that they saw them, regardless of what was true or not. And the media did not need the hassle. So they put in a few calls. In tried to keep things from their point of view. So that they would maybe go awa away. Like one of those japanese monsters in the 1950s movies like godzilla when you see it and it grows bigger and stronger and eats more of your city. dont happen to share their values. And not willing to take a stand. This has been reinforced by this right wing media that constantly is fighting this battle. And working the rest. I dont know how to say this because im the one hand im enormously sympathetic to the problems that awhen you look outside the New York Times and Washington Post and every time you see other places its an enormous crisis of survival, Margaret Sullivan has just published a very good book on the crisis we are facing. Its very hard to make a good living, to make a profit in this country in a straightforward accurate way. I have a great amount of sympathy for that on the one hand, on the other hand, if youre gonna play along with undermining of truth then ab [inaudible] theres too much of people saying, policy is for supporting a certain way we have to Pay Attention and give critics to that even though we know its nonsense. I promise you, thats the way its understood. Maia . Its like this, which straw broke the camels back . All of them. This media piece is critically important we cant lose two things that lee atwater admitted to for this conversation, one is he said, if i want your opinion i will give it to you. So this is this intentionality around listening to fox going around the south in particular and listening to where and how he could use a communication strategy to pull out and draw upon their fears and form their opinions based on them. Its not a small thing. Even more importantly, lee atwater admitted in a conversation with the political scientist that he did not know necessarily what ultimately get punished about the discipline that really was the beginning of understanding how to manipulate racism to meet the and achieve the ends you want. Thats as long a history in the country as anything he said. This is a paraphrase but almost a quote he said start by saying nword, and word, and word. But then the Civil Rights Movement happens. That starts backfiring. Then you start saying things like, bussing, crime. Then you get so good that all you have to say is taxes. His point was, the entire foundation was built up over years and some folks have attracted all the way back to the organizing that began to retrench from the new deal. And from the opportunities that Racial Justice was pushing for and what would become the second reconstruction of the Civil Rights Movement so i dont think we can understand anything about how we impact it. Of course we need information. If you look at textbooks in this country they have been captured as well, even what we are learning in schools has become difficult to get a full history and accounting of what racism has meant in this country whether talking about native americans, japanese internment, channel slavery in the Civil Rights Movement. Ebony number of experiences are not even adequately taught as we continue to find ourselves having a harder and harder time living anywhere near each other, going to school together, having any experiences that create a foundation for undermining exactly whats been manipulated over decades. Lee atwater was just one of the many, he wasnt new, he wasnt unique, he was just good at it. Can i speak to abi actually knew lee atwater really well. Ironically. One of my biggest moments in my career i got an assignment for the New York Times magazine to profile lee atwater right after george bush won the election. I traveled with him and i have to say ive never had more fun than i did with lee atwater. Hes really fun. Hes a musician. Yes. He played in a band he wasnt very good but he knew how to have a good time. I could tell you stories but im not going to now, any more than im gonna talk about the election. Theres two things i want to say in response of what maia said. I read a history of american liberalism from amy last big book, i think it came out in 2012. Is a good book, every buddy should buy it. But when i wrote that book and for most my life i was a classmen rather than a race man. I felt like race is always been used to divide people by class and you can improve everyones lives, particularly people of color, if you put race aside and let people unite via their class sentra. Way to second eric, this is until 2012 . Yes. Okay keep going. About lee atwater, just to complicate that point i made a little bit, lee atwater was definitely exploiting race with the Willie Horton ad but he was also doing Something Else which is what we see with trump and the entire Republican Party is that it was very much a narrow us against them and the dam doesnt have to be people of color, it could be anyone who is not you. There was a candidate, i dont have the details exactly although if you watch the movie i talk about it. There was a candidate for governor of South Carolina who was the mayor of one of the cities in South Carolina and he was a democrat. He had a good chance of winning the governorship. He raised money in new york and that was the problem, who lives in new york. Atwater did some research and found out that the thing that people found most objectionable about a hypothetical candidate was that he did not accept jesus christ as his personal savior. Did anyone tell him jesus was jewish. [laughter] they recruited a usedcar salesman, literally, a usedcar salesman to run as a thirdparty candidate. He was incredibly wellfunded somehow. The campaign against the sky, this jewish guy, because he didnt accept jesus christ as his personal savior. Thats how they won the governors race in South Carolina. So that wasnt about race. So trump and much of the Republican Party didnt really care if you know that they are lying or not and this tribalism which race was at the center of obviously not the only part of it is their only hope. Tribalism combined with restricting the vote. And they are hoping they can get one more election out of it and that will be all they need and they might be right and thats my greatest concern right now as an american. I want to make sure, we got around 15 minutes give or take. With a bunch of questions. There is one special one that just came in by a woman who was a recent graduate of the university of wisconsin madison, Political Science and educational policy studies on the eve alterman, who has a fascinating sounding question two step in which miss alterman asks, lying is not only deceitful but its a product of a refusal to take accountability for ones mistakes. Recent movements like blm and me too stress the general culture of a lack of accountability amongst those in power whether in the police to permit or Sexual Harassment in the office. Trumps accountability allergy, miss alterman says, has taken lying to an entirely unprecedented level, even in the age of Fact Checking at our fingertips. How can we move forward in new york city or in the u. S. When the truth is no longer valued. What type of systems can we put in place, she asks, to restore the importance of telling the truth. This is a metaquestion by a recent university of wisconsin madison graduate. If its all right i might just start with maia. I was going to say, i got a feeling this incredibly area of diet and elegant eloquent question is addressed to someone who miss alterman might respect, and that can only be maia. [laughter] i dont even know what to say that. Is a brilliant question from no doubt a brilliant woman. Heres the thing, im not really ready to accept the premise that people dont care about the truth and that but i absolutely agree with the premise that the theres been a complete failure of accountability. Thats my point about going to institutions and people and systems are cheating. I think thats true sometimes in policing, in terms of when we see Political Parties start to behave around Voting Rights. I think the honest truth is, we are seeing people demand the accountability and quite effective ways. Its called protesting. Its called organizing and demonstrating its called a complete refusal to enable and do anything other than challenge the institutions that are not functioning as we the people have mandated mandated that they function. I do think that matters tremendously, i think it has mattered and has been manifest at local levels, i think we have seen as a result of demonstrations, and incredible response, forced responsiveness by even local electives who may be not because they were completely without any accountability as weve seen in the context of donald trump. But who nevertheless maybe taste paths of least resistance rather than being more bold and transformational where necessary. The very act of democratic practice, which includes protests, has created a form of force to come ability both of people and institutions in ways that i think matter dramatically and i dont think theres anything more encouraging than the fact they been multiracial, the fact that weve seen even multi generational protesters in many places and that it has created a context in which ive never seen this kind of pull before in my life where six in 10 republicans say that race is a significant issue in the united states. That is a seachange and one that can only be credited with activism and organizing and it didnt just happen because of george floyd, its been happening since Trayvon Martin and also in ways outside of the issues of police brutality, not because its not critical but its not even the only way, as me too also demonstrates as we think about the womens march right after the election in 2016. I think the amount of democratic engagement and practice has increased and the openness of the American Public to have a much more honest confrontation with the question of things like race and democracy and our systems of accountability are what gives me hope and certainly one of the things im grateful for open society for funding and also critically important because it creates a space and opportunity for the news media to step up and start to push even harder on the facts. I will stop there and thank you for the question. Ive got to say, i have a daughter who is 23 years old, recent graduate university of wisconsin madison. I despaired in recent times of the world that we are leaving her the fact that Global Warming may be insurmountable and so many problems are being let slide on purpose and anyany inequality. This black lives movement has so surprise me and enlighten me and made me feel proud to be american. I didnt think it was possible i thought we were all beaten down. I thought people thought you click on something and tweet about it and thats the end of it and thats all but they are out there and facing physical danger and refusing to back down and its beautiful. And its meaningful and its inspirational. Its made me feel much more optimistic about the country that we are leaving our young people even though, what a mess at the same time. But its not hopeless. I dont feel hopeless in the way that i did before this happened so i just want to say thank you to those people out there for doing that. Can we just throw in, that is so moving but its also true Indigenous People on climate change, one of the things that so wonderful as there has been so many fronts on which communities have been organizing on so many issues and that there is more interaction between them. I think that is something that also a can i ask my question . Maia, its my understanding that black lives matter was a net win for trumpet 2016, the scare tactic, are you as impressed as i am about the ab im wonderfully shocked. Im not, im shocked about the opinion polls but im not really shocked because i think weve always seen it in the context of black organizing for Racial Justice in this country. It was true in the fight for abolition of slavery. It was true in the fight to hold onto reconstruction. It was true in what we call the secondary reconstruction which was the Civil Rights Movements of the 50s and 60s. I think the fact that its always the first refrain to say be afraid of those folks and the reality is because the work doesnt stop and because ab and has been so much more opportunity and i think this generation, the generation that represents recent graduates from the university of medicine and generation z they have much more of a framework of intersectional analysis that saying, our fates are linked. If its happening to Indigenous People of the pipeline, also destroying our Environmental Health committee for Police Violence in black communities, we got to care about that too. If its immigration at the borders, thats our issue. Theres been this tremendous building for years now, i dont see it as a recent phenomenon but i think its not surprising to me the fact that it hasnt gone away and the fact that its something that has become a reckoning because its been very intentional and i think black lives matter in particular as a movement has been very intentional as well about having those conversations across community. And the students in part limb for that matter in terms of gun violence and really recognizing that its not just the mass shooters its also whats happening in gun violence in communities of color. Im so impressed by the fact that we have a generation of folks who been reaching across communities to find their common humanity. That is what is so important here. Thank you, thats very moving. I would just like to move it back to one point which is the importance of truth. George floyd will go down in history because we saw it, there is no denying it and it was so powerful when you see it now its still unbelievable, you can almost barely stand to see it. I think its just as important abcampaign finance is important too. You cant move forward unless you get rid of all the money on one side. But you also cant move forward unless you can agree on reality. To agree on whats out there to make the pictures in our heads match the world outside. If i could wave a magic wand i would say that the purpose of my book is to try to get people to demand the truth, to demand that the people are responsible. Its largely the media, but not only the media. Its all these establishments institutions who have the privilege of defining the pictures in our heads. Thank god for oss, that sounds sappy but for george soros dedicating his life to doing this and a great personal cost. George soros is a symbol, he is the antichrist in the eyes of so many people because hes not giving up on this fight. Hes insisting on demanding that we hold true to these truths and values. I think we shouldnt just leave it to george and oss and the few people fighting we need to demand it of our athe people who run our leading institutions. I dont think murdoch should be treated with respect, i think he should be held to account for destroying democracy, for undermining our abilities to deal with climate change, etc. Im using him as an example. But theres lots of people like that. I think as you read my book, i sound like im plugging my book, its an ongoing process. On the undermining of truth, the enemies of shared reality and we cant be mind move so a aabout the shared reality in the groups but thats what these people are trying to destroy and thats what we need to get to you not. Its a stepbystep process, george floyd was kind of easy he had his elbow on his neck. Of the rest of the world is more complicated and we need to find a way to demand truth from our institutions so that we can force our society to reflect the values we share. We have so many more questions because there is so many hundreds of people listening to this vital and searching conversation i want to thank you so much, got a little welled up listening to your comments about george soros. Whose birthday is tomorrow as he reaches man ordinary and status. Happy birthday to him. But, eric, this is all about publicizing your book. And it is here lying in state why president s lie and why trump is worse, its an exceptional story, not an easy one but a necessary one. First i want to thank my old friend maia wiley for all the taking atime you taken here. Is lovely to be in conversation with you. I would like to thank my new friend Eric Alterman for giving us this opportunity to celebrate you and your book and only the best of luck with it. Thank you so much to everyone involved, i lack the words to say how grateful i am for this. Here are some of the current bestselling nonfiction books according to the Washington Post, topping the list Pulitzer Prize winning author is about what percent explores what she calls a hidden caste system in the united states. Then in how to be an antiracist abram kennedy argues that america must choose to be antiracist and work toward building a more equitable society. After that, in too much and never enough, President Trumps niece mary trump takes a critical look at the president and his family followed by activist glenna doyles memoir untamed wrapping up our look at some of the bestselling nonfiction books according to the Washington Post is his truth is marching on historian john meachams biography of the late congressman and civil rights leader john lewis. Some of these authors have appeared on booktv and you can watch them online at booktv. Org. Good morning, thank you for joining us here at post live, i am karen told the im a columnist here at the post i read about poetics and it is my great pleasure this morning to be interviewing a couple of my colleagues and friends, Kevin Sullivan and mary jordan about their brandnew book trump on trial the investigation, impeachment, acquittal and aftermath. That we have all lived through in this past year. Kevin, thats one of the things that as i was reading this book, which its gripping, i had to keep reminding myself that it has