I would like to welcome everyone, there might be big news today in american politics, but it aint nothing compared to this, which is so much bigger insignificance, and opportunity for us to celebrate eric alterman. With his new book lying in state why president s lie and why trump is worse we are going to spend, my name is Leonard Bernardo by the way, Vice President of the open society foundations, hosting this event, i should say that we are going to talk for around 45 minutes, give or take, then we have enough time for another 45 minutes of questions, those questions that you would like to share with eric and maia and me should be sent to questions opensocietyfoun dations. Org. You can also do this via twitter and you can also if you really need to, do it via facebook. We are recording this event. Its being live cast and its going to be quite a show. We have someone i have known and admired for a very long time, maia wiley with us as a discussant. Meyer, who is been a very long time civil rights lawyer and activist, former chair of new york citys civilian Complaint Review board to form a Corporation Counsel to his honor, william de blasio Current University professor at the new school and ongoing legal and maoist at both nbc news and msnbc. A great pleasure to be with you here. The person of honor, eric alterman, a distinguished professor at Oakland College in the english faculty, a person who has had a fourth nightly column in the nation since i think i was in diapers but continues going. On liberal media, eric has been the recipient of a s of fellowships and awards over the years, testament to his important work as a journalist, historian, has written many books from Bruce Springsteen to liberalism to the perfidy of American Media and then this question of president ial lying that we are going to interrogate today. Welcome, eric, welcome, maia and welcome everyone who has joined this live cast. I thought, eric, i could begin by a pretty general opening question to you about why it is that you wrote this book, what you learn from this because for the dissertation online some years ago at stanford that became the book some 15 years ago online what made you return to the theme of mendacity looking across the gamut of American History and, what did you get out of this . Thank you so much lenny, thank you maia, im deeply honored for your presence here, i mean that. And thank you to the foundation. I appreciate that question because its a meaningful question. I actually was under contract to write a different book when the talk of donald trump selection took place. And that january i went away for my birthday with my daughter for a little vacation and i was reading ron terminals book on the whataburger family, a very important wealthy German Jewish family, a significant number of whom remained in germany throughout the hitler years and ended up dying one way or another. I wasnt in my mind comparing trump to hitler, still am not, but i was amazed that all different signs that they were able to ignore and commit the family and convincing everything was good to be okay when it was not going to be okay. I had this thought then that i wanted to account for myself in this period of trumps presidency because it was something so unusual and no one knew where it was going to go. I thought, what do i know . I know president ial lying because i wrote my dissertation and my previous book on which was case study of abit begins with George Washington through donald trump. I thought, thats the contribution i could make and that way when my daughter, who just graduated college, no pressure, once she has children one day they say, daddy, what did you do during the Trump Presidency i will hand them this book. Thats how it happened. Now im back to work on the original. Some second part of your question. I have a phd in American History, ive written a lot of books that are mostly history book, even the springsteen book. But, and most of my writing has been about the media or u. S. Foreignpolicy. The cold war and abthe way it made president s lie, battered and shock me, i was ready for that. What shocked me is the neutrality of White Supremacy in the history of the need for president ial lying. If you asked me in the pretrump period what are the two main drivers of president ial lying, number one is White Supremacy because we are not in a nation where all men are created equal much less all women, we are a nation where a lot of people have to be put in certain places so that other people can feel superior to them and thats been a constant theme of American History from slavery through the expansion into latin america and the philippines etc. , it all had to be done in that context that for president he couldnt tell the truth about how the people nonwhite were being treated because it was in direct competition with the fundamental myth of this country. The second driving force which changed over time and may be changed fundamentally under trump. Begins with the need for constant expansion that began very early with jefferson and lewis and clark and so on. And becomes when we run out of territory to expand in north america, Frederick Jackson turner is a great thesis which i believe was 1896 we start expanding overseas and become an empire. Then following world war ii we get this definition of National Security which encompasses our empire but completely limitless. That idea of constant expansion of empire of the fact that other countries are not allowed to take their own form of government because it conflicts with our idea of National Security, that also conflicts with the myths that we are taught and expected to believe in politicians. All of these things come together and track president s into lives. Let me just push you a little bit on the question of lying specifically. What you just described in terms of manifest destiny, in terms of at least the implication the 3 5 clause in the constitution, this of course is nothing new, tell me what you feel is new or novel or distinct about this master category of lying that is going to add to the broader understanding even if synthetically, of American History. First of all i want to say this is alcohol, this is a vodka martini and this is supposed to be for me a celebration of this three years i put into this book, for years, im grateful that no other Important News was produced today so everybody can focus on it. [laughter] i was worried, its okay, i havent looked at my computer in a while. When a president lies, people lie a lot, people have no idea how common lying is. Most people dont think of themselves as liars but almost never belies. Shocker here, men lie more often to make themselves feel better and women lie to assuage other peoples feelings. As a rule, obviously there are exceptions. When a president lies, its different than any other kind of lie because president s rhetoric creates its own form of reality. When a president lies people react to it. And instead of reacting to what the president is lying about they react for the lie. So they end up dealing with the problem that perhaps has been lied about whereas the initial problem goes unaddressed. You create a dynamic where you have to keep lying and lying because you let the problem fester. I dont want to jump all the way to donald trump but im going to for one minute. What i found interesting last week about one of trumps countless lives was when he was asked about the exposure to lebanon he said he talked to great generals and they told the him it was probably an attack. Debunked. Everybody ignored it because nobody takes them seriously, even though hes president of the united states. Did anyone stay we have to investigate the terror attacks. There are a lot of problems associated. Different problems when we face with that, any other president said that it would be a crisis. , if i could, thank you for that. Let me turn to maia and im wondering, maia, if we do think about trump for a second, i dont think any of us here believe in the great person theory of the tom brokaw, i think we all recognize there are huge structural preconditions and structural pressures that enable somebody like donald trump to exist, awful as some may say he may be, im wondering if you can talk a little bit about those enabling conditions in terms of what created the opportunities for someone like trump to be, as it were, prevaricate her and chief. Thank you lenny but i also just want to say congratulations eric, as someone who is writing, ive always appreciated and enjoyed and learned from this is an important and Exciting Book an important time, thank you. And thank you lenny, its like a homecoming to be part of one of these events and i wanted to say happy birthday george sorrow. Someone who has been the victim of lying and particular lying thats embedded in antisemitism. When we talk about the structures, i think its critical that we talk about and, by the way, this is something that is in erics book so im not going to tell you all the things it says so you go out and buy it but theres really Important Information in the book around some of these structures and some of them include the fact, we just saw it recently play out in the impeachment hearing of donald trump that we have a party system that is essentially failed to hold its own accountable. That deal that weve seen is really a degradation of a democratic process that was unlike what we saw say with nixon the tremendous liar in watergate. Where the party was willing to say we have to protect the institutions of democracy, not the person of the president. The shift that weve seen and the book speaks to some critical components of the shift was less about whether the republican establishment loved donald trump, it was the willingness to embrace him, despite not liking him because of the fear of the base that very much voted for and accepted a donald trump as a liar. Factual statement. That is an astounding thing for a news room editor to stay to staff around facts, and how important it was to have someone in the media willing to make that kind of statement and stand by it when it got publicized beyond his newsroom. And eric really points to the way in which even some long time very conservative commentators like charlie, like george will kind of pamona the fact that there has been a rise of an echo chamber that has become part of a disinformation system of quote unquote news reporting. As if there is something called, neutrality in the context of boldfaced lies. And that the difficulty that newsrooms have had in calling them out. So i think there are multiple things to look at. And i also went to underscore what erica said about racism. Because there has been no question that in my view the core of the white supremacist model, that is helped enable donald trump to the white house. Which includes a Voter Suppression by the way in very intentional efforts to undermine the vote, which may explain why it is even in the white house to begin with. Certainly undergirded by his rank from southern strategy. The customer the southern strategy, part of the lying in history around White Supremacy was we are going to uphold it but we will uphold dog whistles part only those phrases and terms that folks who want to hold White Supremacy want to hear. Those offended by it wont hear it. And wont get away with it. And donald trump, really broke that model. What he did his he said im going to be upfront and inyourface with my racism. But i will be an economic populist. And that was the break from the tradition republican model , we will be covid in appealing to those with supremacy, but we will also be fiscal conservatives and we will be globalists in the sense of free market economies. That was the deal that donald trump broke and it worked. Can i ask, you touched on the question of journalism you mention ben smith. In erics book as you say, you start a number of journalist britt he talks baker to task. So to your mind, lying is not just about intentionality. In so many journalists as i think as you correctly notes, feel that they have to maintain some notion of neutrality. Because they cant necessarily prove intent. And so in your book, you take a more capacious. You have disinformation and the like and not just intent. I am wondering if you spoke to some of the selfrespecting journalist that my head just mentioned, would they accept your more capacious sense . What were they think about your approach and why . Of the journals in the main stream media have been rejected outright. Thats one of the reasons i wrote the book. That inability to point out that the president just spoke a falsehood, at the time the president is speaking it, that is what empowered not only trump other president s. The fact that, i would say ive made a lot of important points that i like to speak to as well as answer your question. If you look at the first the First Century and half of the history, the lies the president told were kind of consensus like. You are mentioned earlier manifest destiny. Even some of the most consequential liar of that. The man who try to hold them to account, and trustingly, abraham lincoln, to turn congressmen who lost his job for that reason. I did not run for reelection because hed become a dissident by trying to hold him accountable the mexican war. Most of this manifest destiny and this expansionary. And keeping the world safer for democracy, there is a dissidents but there is consensus on behalf of the lies that were told. Things began to break with ronald reagan. I would say. Because nick sim was held to account. With nixon the system works. With ronald reagan, he would speak nonsense all the time. I dont to give it hat tip, that is not a sexist term, to my a on the races dog whistle. Remember the town he announcing . Philadelphia and mississippi. Thats when they were murdered. Civic he happened to announce in that very speech as if he wasnt saying anything. It was obvious what he was saying. And that people in that media for a variety of reasons are so cautious about holding the president to account for they respect the office, they are afraid of the crab they get from the right wing working they dont get blamed. But the president has historically had an incredible wide birth to live into use this racist dog whistle, which amount to lying. So in the case of oregan, he would say all of this nonsense. He had liberated the concentration camps and he never left california. And the excuse was a well, he makes up these stories and he believes them. My friend came up with the distant grade entering reagan got away with all this. Because people, the media were not willing to take on a president say this is nonsense. He would call a lie or Something Else but it doesnt matter pretty have to at the moment, the president said something thats false call it out as false. Otherwise it becomes true because the president said it. So reagan began by speaking nonsense. And the media was shocked by reagans election very much they were shocked by trump selection. I would say that the current moment, began with ronald reagan. Then took anna normas jump forward with Newt Gingrich who recognized that if he was going to use the most outlandish language and craziest accusations that i want to recommend my friends new book. On this topic that just came out two weeks ago. That again the press would do what they always do. What they did to joe mccarthy. They would say that homosexual whatever. What you say . And you say i am not any of those things. And they spoke as both sides and left the readers side. Its clearly not useful with donald trump who says running for president saying the president was not born in this country. And that Global Warming is a plot to destroy American Manufacturing made up by the chinese. He lied about having said that. Set it hundreds of times. On the ask the media with they decided to do about these lies is either print both sides, trump says this. Obama says no i was born in this country. Or they print somewhere else. Newspapers, and those in broadcast basically get away with it. It doesnt work unless you point out its not true at the point and presidency. Because the president says it takes on a life of its own. I give donald trump credit. He is a lying genius. Even recently people in time but the great interviews Chris Wallace did. I could go to those interviews and point out dozens and dozens of lies that went on answered. Because no one could keep up with this mans ability to live. In his lies are so embedded in our culture, it is like a swamp to break through them. Steve and eric, lets calm if i could, no know its great. Lets just zoom out for a Second Period because in swimming in the sea of lies. Misinformation, disinformation, propaganda, at every level, at every turn. And so the thoughts on how do we get out of this . Because my feeling and ive said this before at the foundation, is that there is no silver bullet. We are not returning to some ideally kera that never existed. Its a matter of how do we deal with, tamp down where necessary, miss information and disinformation. We are not going to transcend it. We are not going to overcome it. I am curious, maya, where you see all of what eric is talking about and terms of fundamental lies by executive officeholders. In the world of disinformation that we inhabit right now. What you see the future looking like . I think it looks like my cat. [laughter] and all roads lead to my cat. The very important question prayed a lot of the analysis that eric is pointing to and is in the book. Is can be translated also into a roadmap. Meaning it is certainly encouraging. And we should be encouraged by the fact that we have a National Discussion about what is truth and what are lies. Unfortunately is the context of donald trump who lies so frequently. But the fact that we have Washington Post running a running catalog of over what are we up to 18000, ive lost track. 20000. 20000 lies and misleading statements from the president of the united states. I think the fact that we have seen, and i think we are seeing the public start to respond to the accountability of elected leaders on protecting the institutions of democracy as a part of that. I dont think we can get away from some of the Underlying Research that points to for example, why people are more likely to believe conspiracy theories for example. And exide eddie is a huge psychological predictor of the willingness to believe in conspiracies. By the way conspiracy belief is not rooted in one particular ideology or another. There are left wing conspiracy theories. There are right wing conspiracy theories. In all manner in the middle. The ability for American People to both get acknowledgment and validation on anxiety, to get an ability to be supported and having more human connection, particularly to people who are different. We are more segregated now than we have been in years. And we have been going in the wrong direction on racial segregation for example. But it also means we are not having the kind of experiences with one another that form relationships that also help us navigate some of the lies we tell about other people. And i think in this context for instance of donald trump, eric out when some of these lies in the book, around caging children and they flat out denial of our lying eyes. It was policies of the past. It was a very troubling trend in the Opinion Research that showed that there were some americans who actually saw this as rational policy. So not even weather is truth or not truth. But the dehumanization of some people in the world who instead of being seen as folks that are experiencing a humanitarian crisis, and something as basic as parental rights. Host webs weight lost maya for a moment. Lets give her three seconds. I know she was having a little bit of internet problem. Alright eric, as we wait for maya to come back in, could be the cats. It could be that cat. Let me raise with you eric, something that maya was saying. Aetnas eight sort of normative set of questions. What would you like at the end of the day. We are both journalists, your historian, you produce history h draft of history, not many people are able to do both. What would you like ultimately from a prescriptive to the extent you want to be prescriptive aspect. What would you like people reading this book to come away with outside of simply everyone lies. Is there anything prescriptive you want people to learn from this . Well you know, i am also a professor. And i have been to college. And i remember how little i remember from what he learned in college. The first thing i say on the first of class is, i say three things. Number want to teach them the difference between was and were. Then i teach them the difference between less and fewer. I want to learn these grammatical. Then i say, i dont expect you to remember any of the facts you learned in this class. What i want you to learn critical thinking. I want you to be able to evaluate your sources. And that is what my work is all about. It is about how to choose who you are going to believe. And live your life on the basis of that. And it is hard work. Like i have been very lucky. When i was in college, i had a column in the college newspaper. And i had great professors. One of them wrote this book is very meaningful to me. And i basically have the same job that i had in college. On the one hand i am studying history and trying to make sense of how we got to where we are, and how i got to be where i am. And on the other hand is try to apply that history to daytoday events. And it is very interesting. Ive written about this. Its a big lord and ive used it in college. There is a conflict in the assumptions of journalists and historians. The most thing you can sage was a story and is is just a journalist of the most inserting thing though say to journalists is its history. In fact you cant understand journalism without history and vice versa. So i have this nice Little Mission in my life where i try to do both at once. But, if you ask me what is my prescription for journalism, number one would be to survive. Because that is a big problem right now. We will leave that aside, journalist has many crises. But it would be two things. It would be, number one, what is the context of the issue that you are talking about. That is what did he say what did she say, what is the overall context. Not even what is news. I dont care whats news. News not necessarily important, its what does it mean . In the second question is what is true . What do you believe is true. Dont tell me what you said this guy said is true and back i said is true. And also the truth is very complicated. But we want people spent a lot of time trying to understand an issue and can explain it to us and tell us what is reality. Called the fixes in her head match the world outside. It is hard work. I dont deny that. And the problem is, that is empathetically in both cases. Both with the work of the historian. Because journalism is about what is new. And historians are about working so hard to get things exactly right. So by the time you get them they no longer matter. So i tried to do my work in this netherworld. This book, you got to like, theres like 500 footnotes. Some of this footnotes are mine because i wrote a dissertation a long time ago on this topic. Mostly im relying on a historian. Based on the work, i am trying to apply the lessons of history to our contemporary situation. And when you do that it is a very different picture then you get even and the best newspapers on their best days. As an english professor, not to correct you i think they are and notes in this particular book. But that is neither here nor there, keep going. I would like, if its alright with got got a lot of questions, a lot of good questions that have been pouring in. That if it is alright, i would like to begin with a couple. Well do that maybe two by two may be some singly. Some that eric actually mentioned earlier, just sense in, julian he teaches at princetons on the history there is an analyst with cnn julian asks as we evaluate the legacy of president s, does the consequence of a president ial lie matter . If there is not a great policy consequence, like vietnam, is it less significant . I think i might just stop there before the next one that is a big question. Maya, eric, please. Spin echo ahead. Well, look i am black in america. And what that means is there are always consequences. But sometimes they are not immediate. Because sometimes they are consequences that have to be of our making. And i say that with all honesty. That coming from a community that has the force reckoning with the history we were talking about earlier, force reckoning with a kind of White Supremacy that continues to manifest itself today. Host whats. Just lost a maya first second shes going to come back again, eric stickup. Yeah. That is a good question. Ive got two answers on different levels. One is, i mentioned in the introduction of my book, it is all consequential. If you look at how historians rates president s, lying has nothing to do with it at all. Jimmy carter, barack obama, they are not at the top. And its all about who is successful. So historians as well as the public are very much willing to forgive lies as long as they work out. I wish that werent the case but it definitely is. A friend of mine, a historian, wrote me today at georgetown. He asked me did roosevelt lie in the 1940s about getting us into war . He wanted to get us into war against the not sees. And it reminds me of a famous quote, roosevelt lied in a noble way, and Lyndon Johnson told a y that got us into vietnam that was a catastrophe. Now night wrote my first book, i said president s should never lie. And im taking that back. Read the book its a good book. But im taking it back. Because roosevelt definitely lied. I cant say president should never lie. I am glad roosevelt lied about his intention to get us into war. Im glad he lied to get us into war which he did. Lyndon johnson did very much the same thing and got us into a catastrophic war. John kennedy he lied about solving the cuban missile crisi crisis. He made a deal with the russians that he swore and everyone on his cabinet swore he didnt make any wouldve made a weaker deal if he had to. He was going to prevent no matter what. Interestingly, hate lied about making the deal. And Lyndon Johnson come as Vice President never knew about the lie. He never knew about the secret deal. So johnson was living under the myth that kennedy was eyeball to eyeball with the russians and did not blink. Many didnt blink because he felt like he had to. Thats the reason i wrote my first book. My got caught up in vietnam because he had just as much as the predecessor. So lying is a very complicated matter. Lied because we lie all the tim time. Beginning of the book we are taught how great it was that jacob lied about his birthright to his father isaac to steal from esau. Then of course thered be no moses if the midwife had not lied about the israelite child. We understand that. Its very hard to understand the consequences of lying before the lie takes place. I think journalists is to say the truth. You cant worry about whether its a good lie or a bad lie. Scholars and intellectuals to defend the truth, to defend the language. One thing that donald trump should goad to jail for, he is so promiscuous. Even though if he knows a few words. So frequently its hard to make sense of what he said. And if you think about words and it kind of bubble we were collapsing on one another. That is part of what he gets up way with. Ivan talks about the Washington Post fact checkers. I admire that one guy at cnn hired away from the toronto sta star, who does not get the credit he deserves. He does it all by himself or cnn. Cnn allows that 90 of the time. But daniel dell has sorted out with the media has done for the first three years of trumps presidency is making make a lot more sense. He gives these speeches and press conferences each basically speaking nonsense. In the press when they cover the story they make it sound sensible. I want to give a shout out, i wish my close personal friend, sara cooper who ive never met. If shes watching you like to be friends with sara cooper. She has shown us how crazy the man sounds when you actually see his words in a row. I would sit from even when he is not exactly lying is lying. Because he is manipulated in such a way that the truth rick. Eric let me jump in your. I know maya is back. This is the Perfect Moment to segue into the great joke on us in. The great journalist joe, sid and joe writes, very much on point here, does the electric give a hoot . Thats my paraphrase about president ial line, they only care about the topics it may elicit president ial lies. What you think maya . I do think people care about lies with things they care about. Think that goes to some of the points eric was already making. They dont care about lies if they just want the president to do with the president is doing. Theres a great comedy routine where one of the comedians was going out into an audience of trumps supporters and the trumps supporters said i stand by my president because and then said something that was exactly not what is covered. When the voter was confronted with the fact that there is a total mismatch between what the voter was saying and what trump said, the voter says will i dont care. So yes, there is a group of people that support no matter what. I think as we have seen and we should not forget this, the vast majority of americans are expressing real concern. The problem is, either the leadership, because of the way we have had gerrymandering. The way we have broken fundamentally how people voice and votes, get registered and count in an election. That dilutes the objection in their voice when it comes to these kinds of lies, particularly diverse American Public. So unless we are willing to address the fact that at least 2010 we have not had an outright and intentional attack on the Voting Rights of people of color in this country because of who they are more likely to vote for. That has deeply undermined the ability of the American People to register in a way that counts with elected officials. The results online. But i think that can change. Weve already seen as a seeds of lies and misinformation being sown about mail and balloting as an effort to erode the ability of the American Public to take control back by exercising their rights. And that we have to confront. And we do that, and i apologize getting cut off for my bad optimum cable, but the reality is, it is a struggle that we have had since the beginning of the country is to make our elected officials reflect our values and beliefs in a way that is a pluralistic democracy that we in fact are. Great. That wasnt optimal cable plug. Let me ask, eric, if you are on board with what maya just said about whether the electric gives a hoot about president ial line. I dont think there is an electorate any more. I dont think we really are a country, a single country anymore. I think weve divided ourselves into separate systems, in part thanks to the media with murdock, fox, those who believe in their own world and are incredibly dedicated. They cause a lot of trouble for individuals to go against him. Part of what we wrote about in her book, they hassle people so much, its not worth taking them on. In doing so, they move a center of american politics further and further to the right to their own territory. So even though you have everything else, all of these other organizations now, the main street media has moved with them. Because a fox makes a lot of money. It is still the highest rated program on cable. So the media, they are chasing after viewers. So the fact that now, i mean isnt it absurd that donald trump inks he can win the election by defending confederate statues . Who is dedicated to confederate statues . Even the military and the Republican Party saying get rid of them. How can that possibly be aware. Why would you really care the statutes. When you have 20 unemployment , all kinds of problems. You are living in this bubble that is entirely controlled by people who are there to aid, support donald trump and see that we are evil trying to destroy, anti religion, anti god. And it has become impossible to break through that. It just has to be defeated. But it is like living in the old world. When you speak to the country about shared values. And you appeal to traditional points of patriotism. And its by most people. But as maya says, weve seen recently in georgia and kansas, they could control, they could control the voting process to the point where a tiny minority, the kinds of people who care. Anyone knowing cares about confederate monuments i dont know them. This kind of minority can control the country and destroy the democracy. Can our country survive another four years of Donald Trumps democracy . I dont think so. No one in the world thanks that donald trump is going to win a popular election in the next election. You can get anyone to say that. And yet. [inaudible] mess because he has been so careful it degrading the vulnerable aspects of our democratic process. I like to see her main street media treat this as a crisis. I want to just say is an excellent question from someone at university of wisconsin about this question of democracy pretty want underscore for everyone hosting this event is obviously a nonpartisan organization. But let me go to this question if i can, eric and maya, from chad allen goldberg, professor of sociology at ute dove madiso madison. Once wrote that the Public Institution should be responsive to Public Opinion and his democracy. There can be no Public Opinion compose the public are able to live and think in the same world. So eric and maya, what are the implications of president ial lying for the possibility of Public Opinion in the organization of a democratic republic . Guest i think eric was speaking to this in the context of fox news echo chamber. Let me just give you an anecdote. Because it really is about where and how we access information and whether there is any factual grounding in that information. I remember driving between biloxi and new orleans for work post hurricane katrina. And the radio stations along the way, all i was trying to do is pick up music stations, or by enlarged conservative radio. And in every single station i hit in that entire drive, i heard one set of facts and opinion. Not multiple. And it was by and large one that painted immigrants as the worst possible thing that could happen to the country. And particularly as immigrants who would steal our healthcare. And that was obviously not a factually based conversation. It was an emotional one. It was deeply troubling and racist one in my view because it stereotyped a whole group of people but it also became fundamentally what we started to see in the organizing against healthcare reform and in those communities there were not multiple sources of information. If you go to some parts of rural arizona rural other parts of the country, there is often not more than one source of information. And that makes it impossible. Theres only a bubble of information that is not backspace that is opinion and not grounded and does not enable an actual conversation who have different experiences. Think that is fundamentally the challenge. Subic eric anything additional on that . I secondary everything maya just said. Theres a fact shaming that you never hear anything but what fits into their preconceived beliefs. And because that is profitable, theres no way to break into it. The second thing though, so what i wrote the book when i began i it, and 2016 i was very worried about using the word fascism. Because it is such a global term for you saw a little bit some scholars were saying there were similarities but of course this is not not the germany, its not italy, there are a lot of techniques that trump is using and ill even think he knows what passes and ms. Technically speaking i think hes got a feel for in this she is a rather disorganized speaker, shes got some really piercing things to say come true over time. One of the points she makes that i could not help but reflect on in my conclusion is that if you destroy the idea of shared knowledge, then you can get away with anything. If you say, trump literally says in the chapter on trumps presidency is called like dont believe what you hear. Its a direct quote from the president. And if you destroy the idea of shared knowledge and shared facts, then you could say anything you want. And again, i dont think trump red fascism. Although theres correction of hitlers speeches. But he does that. And he has appointed a whole group of people that did the same thing. William bart is a same thing. Got some crazy guy in the cia. Another one theres peter nava rose sang all of nonsense this weekend. And it is destroying an understanding about reality. And again, it is the job of not just the media but the entire establishment. All of us who are privileged enough to have voices and have gone to college and to be heard in discourse foundations, local government, to defend these things. And it is not happening. Its starting to happen a little bit. Now that it has become so obvious what is trying to do. But it happened for three years. Everybody was like the dow is great, theres an anonymous amount of damage has been done. I talk about elections, it is the place for. I think we might just survive this moment. But i am not sure. And my god, how did we get here . How do we get to this place to live such a does functional democracy, compared to germany and italy for goodness sakes. But can i ask you, again i dont talk about elections because the foundation is nonpartisan. But if i can just raise one points, theres an interesting documentary, really good talking head in it on lee atwater. One of these spin doctors that has taken, that took public debate and basically threw it into the abyss. We remember that 92 election with clinton and George Herbert walker seeking reelection. And the notorious nefarious racist episode. I raised lee atwater. Thousand 88. That was 88. That was successful. Sorry. Thats right 88, sorry, sorry, sorry. I race atwater and because it struck me as an Inflection Point where the first time and maybe it wasnt the first time period has seemed as if anything could be thrown against the wall whether it is a lie, however agree just that light is. And if it stuck, great. If it didnt lets move onto the next. It did not seem to me. I want to be told otherwise, that in previous elections, and previous american there is a kind of an archaic freeforall. This seemed to somehow be a kind of culmination of where we then from 88 began a new period in line. Do you read that similarly or not . Which was reagans Vice President id start there. Theres two things for it as a i got to say things are pretty bad at the beginning, like Laura Ingraham and tucker carlson, they have their personalities in the early part of it, of the century. But things have come down quite a bit. And again with dragon, and then as you stay with bush and atwater, things started to go awry. That led directly to trump. Part of it was an implicit racism of reagans announcement speech. And atwater, et cetera. One thing i am proud of in my career is that i didnt invent the phrase working the rest. I found it in popular lunch and popularized it. Originally it was spoken by George Herbert wallace bush the head of the Republican Party at that time. Atwater was a campaign manager. Said that he knew the media he was working the rest. The more you hassled the rest the more likely will throw you a few calls just to shut you up. What the conservative movement did, was create this and normals incredibly wellfunded structure to hassled the media. To try to get the media to report stories the way they saw them. Regardless of whether its true or not. And the media did not need the hassle. So they put in a few calls. And they tried to see things from their point of view so that they would maybe go away. But its like one of those japanese monsters in the 1950s movies like godzilla when you see it and it grows bigger and stronger and eats more of your city. The more calls they were given, the more they grew stronger more and more. And now i think it happens all the time. So when you look at the coverage of people saying obama was not bored in this country. You are not going to get a very clear picture. They want to be respectful of the views of people who dont happen to share their values. They are not willing to expand. This is been reinforced by the media thats constantly reinventing and working the res rest. So i dont know how to say this. Because on the one hand i am a normatively sympathetic when you look outside the New York Times and the Washington Post and cnn and the other places there is in a normals crisis of survival. Sullivan just published another great book on the crisis we are facing it is disappearing. It is very hard to make a good living, to make a profit in this country and report the news in a straightforward, accurate way. So i have sympathy for that on the one hand. On the other hand if youre going to play along with the underlying truth, then why are you in this business in the first place . There is just too much of that. This too much of saying the reporting it this way so we have to Pay Attention and give credence to that. And i promise you, that is the way it is understood. Host maya . Speech it looked, it is like this. Which straw broke the camels back . All of them, right . So this media peace is critically important. We cant lose two things that lee atwater admitted to for this conversation. One is he said if i want your opinion i will give it to you. And so this intentionality around listening to folks, going around the south in particular and listening to where and how he could use a communication strategy to pull out and draw upon their fears and form their opinions based on them. It is not a small thing. Even more importantly, lee atwater admitted with the political scientist he did not know necessarily what would ultimately get punished about the discipline that really was the beginning of understanding how to manipulate racism to meet and achieve the ends you want. And that is as long as in the country he said, this is paraphrase but almost a quote, he said we start by saying nword, nword, nword. But then, you know, the Civil Rights Movement happened. That starts backfiring on you. To start saying things like crime and then you get so good that all you have to say is taxes. But his point was, the entire foundation was built up over years. In some folks have attracted all the way back to the organizing jet begin to retrench from the new deal. And from the opportunities that Racial Justice was pushing for and what would become the second reconstruction of your Civil Rights Movement. So i dont think we can understand anything about how we impact of course we need information if you look at textbooks in this country they have been captured as well. Even what we have learned in schools has been difficult to get a full history and accounting of what racism has met in this country whether were talking about native americans, japanese internment or chattel in the Civil Rights Movement. Any number of experiences are not even adequately taught as we continue to find ourselves having a harder and harder time living anywhere near each other. Going to school together. Having any experiences that create a foundation for undermining exactly what has been manipulated over decades. And lee atwater was just one of the many. He was not new pretty was not unique, he was just good at it. Could i speak, thank you may maya. I actually knew him really well ironically. Its one of my biggest moments in my career i got the near times magazine to profile lee atwater right after george bush won the election. Hen i have to say, i have never had more fun than i did as Lee Atwater Britt he is really funny. Hes a musician. He played in a band he is not very good. He knew how to have a good time but i could tell you stories but im not gonna talk with that anymore than the election. There are two things i want to say in response, number one is , i wrote a book on history of american liberalism called the cause. It was my last big book it came out 2012. And it is a good book, everybody should buy it. But when i wrote that book common for for most of my life i was a classmen rather than a race man. Because i felt like race has always been used to divide people by class. And you could improve everyones lives, particularly those of color if you put race aside and let people unite in the class interim. Ive given that up. Because racist is consensual. Its too important. [inaudible] sue and this is until 2012 . Guest yes. Alright keep going. Now to complicate that point i made, it was also doing Something Else is what we see with trump, was very much a narrow once again them. That then does not have to be the people of color. It can be anybody whos not you. There was a candidates. I dont have the details exactly in my head. There was a jewish candidates for governor of South Carolina who was the mayor of one of the cities in South Carolina. And he was a democrat. And he had a good chance at winning the governor. And he race the money in new york. Atwater did some research. And he found out that the thing people found most objectionable about a hypothetical candidate was that he did not accept jesus christ as his personal savior. They didnt mind his jewish they minded he did not take jesus christ as his personal savior. [inaudible] they recruited and used a salesman, literally. A used car salesman to run as a thirdparty candidate. Use incredibly wellfunded somehow. And he campaigned against the sky, this jewish guy because he did not accept jesus christ as his personal savior. And that is how they won the governors race in South Carolina. So that one was not about race. He was not one of us, okay . So trump and much of the Republican Party, they dont really care if you know they are lying or not. Are you one of us or not . And this tribalism, which race is at the center of comets honestly not the only thing. It is their only hope. Its tribalism combined with what maya says restricting. And they are hoping they can get one more election out of it and that is all they need. And that is my greatest concern right now as an american. Host i want to make sure got around 15 minutes give or take. There is one special one that just came in by a woman who is a recent graduate of the university of wisconsin madison. Being in Political Science studies. Eve alterman who has a fascinating sounding question if i may and which ms. Alterman asks, lying is not only deceitful, but it is a product of a refusal to take accountability for ones mistakes. Recent movements and me too, stress the general culture of a lack of accountability amongst those in power. Weathers and the police department, or Sexual Harassment in the office. Trumps accountability allergy, ms. Alterman said has taken lying to an entirely unprecedented level. Even in the age of Fact Checking at our fingertips. How can we move forward in new york city or the u. S. When the truth is no longer valued. What type of systems can we put in place, she asks, to restore the importance of telling the truth. This is a meta question by recent Madison Wisconsin graduate. If its alright i may just start with the maya here. Ive got a feeling this is incredibly intelligent question is someone whose views might respect and i would use maya. [laughter] guest well, i dont even know what to say that. It is a brilliant question from no doubt a brilliant woman. And i think, heres the thing. I am not really ready to accept the premise that people dont care about the truth. And again, but i absolutely agree the premise there is been a complete failure of accountability. And that is my point about going to institutions and people of systems at start cheating. And i think thats true sometimes of policing just as its true with Political Parties starting to behavioral Voting Rights. And i think the honest truth is, we are seeing people demand the accountability and quite effective ways. It is called protesting. It is called organizing and demonstrating. It is called a complete refusal to enable and to do anything other than to challenge the institutions that are not functioning as we, the people have mandated that they function. And i do think that matters tremendously. I think it has mattered and has manifest at local levels. I think we have seen as a result of demonstrations and incredible response, forced responsiveness even local electives who may be not because they were completely without any accountability as we have seen in the context of donald trump, but who have never let maybe faced paths of least resistance rather than being more bold and transformational where necessary. And the very active Democratic Practice which includes protest, has created a form of forced accountability. Both of people and institutions in ways that i think matter dramatically. And i dont think there is anything more encouraging than the fact that they have been multiracial. The fact weve seen multigenerational protesters in many places. And that it has created a context that i have never seen this type of pole before in my life. Were six intent republicans say that race is a significant issue in the united states. That is a seachange. And it is one that can only be credited with activism and organizing. It did not just happen because of george floyd. It has been happening since margin, and it weighs outside the issues of police brutality, not because its not critical but its not the only way as me to it also demonstrates with the womens march right after the election of 2016. I think the amount of democratic engagement and practice has increased. And the openness of the American Public to have a much more honest confrontation of things like race and democracy and immigration and our systems of accountability are what gives me hope and are certainly one of the things i am grateful for a drink grateful and open society for. It also critically important because it creates a space and opportunity also for the news media to step up and pushed even harder on the facts. So i will stop there and thank you for the question. Thanks maya. Eric something to add on that please . Guest i have to say i have a daughter who is 22 years old, a recent graduate of wisconsin. I have been spared in recent times over the world that we are leaving her. The fact that Global Warming may be insurmountable. And so many problems are being let slide. if you click on something and tweet and at the end of it. And facing physical danger it was beautiful and meaningful and inspirational. And if you much more optimistic about the country we are leaving our young people. But i dont feel hopeless in the way that i did so i just want to say thank you to those people. That so moving because its also true to those Indigenous People on climate change. I think that black lives matter was awaited in 2016 for trump as a scare tactic. And i am shocked. Im not although i am shocked about the opinion polls but im not really shocked and to see that black organizing for Racial Justice. It was true for the fight of abolition slavery. And it was true in the second reconstruction and i think the fact that it is always the first refrained to say be afraid of those folks and has been so much more opportunity in those recent graduates from the university of medicine and that is the intersectional analysis that is happening with the pipeline and Police Violence and black communities we have to care about that you and that is our issue with the borders so there is tremendous building for years it is a day recent phenomenon but the fact that it hasnt gone away and the fact that it is a reckoning because it is very intentional and black lives matter it is a movement has been very intentional as well. And also to realize is not just the mass shooters and communities of color im just impressed we have a generation of folks who were reaching across communities to find their common humanity. That is very moving but i would like to move it back to one. Which is the importance of truth. George floyd will go down in history because we thought. And it so powerful. You can move forward to get rid of the money on one side but unless you can agree on reality. And if i could wave a magic wand and the purpose of my book is to try to get people to demand the truth. Those that are responsible and then to define the picture. Think god but for george soros who dedicated his life but it is a symbol. He is the antichrist. Just to leave that and then just to demanded i dont think Rupert Murdoch should be treated with respect but held to account for destroying to undermine our abilities. There are lots of people like that. It sounds like i am plugging my book but its just ongoing process that the enemies of shared reality. And that is what these people are trying to destroy. It is a stepbystep process. He has is elbow on his neck but we need to find a way and then to reflect the values that we share. There are hundreds of people listening i got a little welled up i must say listening to your comments about george soros whose birthday is tomorrow. Happy birthday to him. But still feel no compunction about publicizing your book thats over doing here anyway. And it is here lying in state. By it did it is an exceptional story. Not an easy one but a necessary one. And so first thinks to my friend for all the time you have taken here its lovely to be in conversation with you and my new friend for giving us this opportunity to celebrate you and your book and only the best of luck with it. Thank you so much to everyone involved i lack the words i think the president has a worldview to approach National Security with a philosophy in mind with a grand strategy or policies. There is that much more for the russians to manipulate whether Vladimir Putin or any number of authoritarian leaders, they do see the president easy to maneuver. That is a very real concern. Cheryl adkisson here with carter page we are here to talk about his new book abuse and power which i think in my opinion is one of the most important stories of our time and has not been well told and tell now. I got to know carter page professionally as an Investigative Reporter covering a story and i was blown away by the fact with powerful interest try to shape them and you dont get the true