President available in paperback,hardcover and ebook wherever books are sold. That evening and welcome to pmp live. Im liz hottel thank you for joining us here in this new space where we continue to bring vital conversations to our politics and prose community. At any time during the event you can click on this green button below to push either of tonights authors on our website every single book thats purchased tonight will come with a signed bookplate and we urge you to support us , barbara and kia by buying the book. Just buy some books. I know many of you already have copies here but im sure there is somebody in your life who needs one and we can send it off to that person. Another way to support pnp tonight is by using the donate button at the bottomof your screen. We are working hard for this program any contribution you can make so that we can continue our programming is so valued by us. You can ask a question by clicking on ask a question but can also be found at near the bottom of your screen you can also read other peoples questions and even vote for the ones you like to hear answer the most area if you have any issues tonight, sometimes it happens we recommend first by refreshing your browser, too, switch over to chrome if you need to and three, try headphones area it helps. Tonight we are here to talk about economic inequality in times of crisis or the only thing that matters right now. And no one in the world speaks truth to power like barbara ehrenreich. Weve witnessed her refusal to accept easy answers in nickel and dime and throughout her extensive career of activism and her desire to impart social change and economic reason is distilled in her new collection of essays. Tf sorrentino has become a successful processor for all of us through her work in the new yorker and her questions right here and during the covid crisis or work has taken on a more urgent voice culminating in a piece on the advent of mutual aid in this weeks new yorker. These women are required reading or any informed citizen of our time. Please help me welcome abra ehrenreich and gr sorrentino to pnp live. There goes liz. I barbara. I everyone, theres 1000 people listening to wild. Its incredible. More than what would be in the bookstore. Its funny, we were just saying before they wentlive. If any of you guys havent, had i known i highly recommend it as book for the og. And all of the things that were all thinking about right now but how absolutely ridiculous it is billionaires are frontline workers are making. All these things. Obviously writing about these things for decades, it was a delight to interview her and iinterviewed her for the new yorker and the before times. And its good to be able totalk now. I mean, i think for you and me were both a little bit, our brains naturally go to the fact that the story of labor, this is a single story of a country right. We been inclined to think that way. But to me, i wanted to ask you do you feel like how much you feel like class consciousness has changed. Has been at the forefront during the last couple of months . Not enough. Number i think its unavoidable. You know, and if you cant avoid the fact that the stimulus package is aimed towards the big corporations. And the wealthy area so you know, how people are absorbing this and beginning to try to act on it, thats the story which you did a great job of one, in this weeks new yorker, what is it on mutual aid for mark. Bringing up spontaneously around the country. Just need help with the most basic things like groceries and getting people to the doctor, stuff like that area and i just loved that speech. I the new yorker. Or i dont know, whatever you do to read these days. But actually working on that piece it was interesting because i think its true that the stimulus package is almost laughable. Its laughable. And the fact that life, isnt the vmi sort of mandatory sickly, i think corporations that employ more than 500 people are exempt from there so many ways in which this actual legislative negotiation of getting help right now is a nightmare that i need. I dont know if my perspective is swayed from having and seeking to organizers for so much of the last couple of months but it seems to me like so many of these Mutual Aid Networks are springing up because of this of like sudden or increasingly very mainstream understanding that the states not doing its job. The legislature is not doing its job area and these mutual aid is this sort of organizing factor and disadvantaged communities and now its amazing to me how mainstream this idea is that where basically a failed state and i kind of find that very heartening. That you think that its not representative or something area. Your article . Know, just this sort of realization. There is no government. There is no government when it comes to the use of arms and things like that but we dont have a welfare state. So we are completely unprepared for people losing jobs en masse and when were looking at 30 percent unemployment, its the estimate now, right . I cant even imagine that. I was not allowed during the great depression, when i heard plenty of stories and this is much more unemployment than that. And of course, we dont have fdr as president. So no, this is, its hard particularly hard to judge things about class consciousness when we cannot congregate. When we cant see people in large numbers area and you know, a lot of my own history as an activist has been large crowds. Thats and linking arms or forming streets together. And hugging and all kinds of things that are now strongly not advise. So its hard to see and in one of my favorite organizers friends said called me and said how do we organize now . People cant even get together, people need to make arms and to whether its a Mutual Aid Society or an action to put pressure on elected officials, whatever. How do we measure that. I know. You been on the frontlines talking to people class i think that ive been thinking a lot about how radicalizing moments get radicalizing moments and i do think that light, we have seen a pretty and again, i could try to fight against the sort of, im always looking for ways to find it there are certain things, like there are certain aspects of a strike that are going on right now that are reminiscent of the 30s. But that are transit workers and hospital workers and warehouse workers and you know, there is still this, theres this rising discontent that we cant acknowledge it and sort of see each others presence which is its this sort of compounding unprecedented and i with the word unprecedented, its so refusing right now but theres certain things like for example the fact that we are staring down 30 percent unemployment, maybe higher. To me its like as if anyone come out of this and Still Believes that Health Insurance should be tied to employment. To me it seems almost impossible for anyone to come out of it thinking that we shouldnt have universal healthcare and im also like, are you being stupid again . Like what do you think about that western mark. We know the bright side here is that we are learning. I am not a status. I sort of lean more and artistically but this is you know, when you realize that nobody is going to come to your aid. And nothing is happening, thats when you say we have to do this. And thats we, to get to the beginning as a people, as a world. It was interesting to me reporting that piece to confront my own statist leanings. Because i guess for people who are listening theres this fundamental tension between all this workthat people are doing for each other like barbara is saying. Making sure they have access to the pharmacy trips or whatever because theres a question of are they doing what the state ought to be responsible for or what the state has never done for many people is not really showing anyinterest in doing. And i tend towards the status point of view but i was much more like 80 this is a lack of imagination on my part. So in terms of you as everyone commenting is saying i think nickel and dime was a formative, deeply informative book in terms of many of us developing a consciousness of inequality and you know, economic oppression and to me , we talked when i was interviewing for the new yorker about how the media often failed at showing any sort of workingclass life which is why i started the Economic Hardship recording project which is one of my favorite thingsgoing and if anybody listening is the know your , many of my favorite stories every year on this as you can abbreviate it to. And to me, i feel that economic equality has been foregrounded by the media in this. Surely. Foregrounded . Kind of. People will always talk about we are all in this together and thisvirus is the great equalizer when obviously it is not. When black people are three times as likely to know someone whos died or whatever the statistic is. In new york i think three quarters of the frontline workers are people of color, the fact that so many of theselowpaid healthcare jobs are held by women. To me, these facts have been pretty clear in Media Coverage and i was wondering what you thinkabout that. You think, how do you think the media has done in reporting on it . Not so bad. Im thinking seriously mainstream, fake news, etc. But i think that the New York Times and the post have been pretty good at constantly bringing this up. And thats something. Now, are there any examples that spring to mind . I just think the times coverage in general. But youre a better judge of these things. You are at their frontlines of journalism. Im in my bedroom like everyone else. I thought there was that oped by the mta conductor about how hideously the transit workers have been treated. Its got a lot of exposure, the fact that i think that there was that great piece on healthcare workers including the lower paid transporters and Environmental Services people the people who are not like the doctors and nurses necessarily but the people, and im also wondering to what degree the and narratives are reaching people that are already aware of. Well, we keep trying. In our different ways. I feel very very frustrated that i cannot talk directly to large numbers of people. Now, its not that im a show off and want to be the center of attention but just to feel, i dont feel a sense of a platform and a sense of people interacting with me enough. Right now. And your agreeing and you are much more out there right now thani am. I think youre right but theres a way in which just this frustration, you think about those lines of people voting and the content or the people in South Carolina protesting ahmaud abery and the risk it takes to gather, its devastating for the kind of organizing that youwant to see so lets talk about amazon organizing. Because i know your exhusband had been involved with organizing amazon and we talked about it in the interview but i think early on the amazon workers in new york i think were one of the earliest people to strike because somehow someone contracted coronavirus and then amazon retaliated. You seen this always accompanies retaliating against like nurses who have spoken out about the condition and i thought of your optimism book. There was nyu langone without this internal Committee Case and that waslike , please only rinse positive statements about the hospitals. But you know, and amazon its been one of the most prominent. It has really tried to tamp down on this local organizing as it has for a long time but its gotten called out for it and the attorney general said they will probably investigate. What, talk to me about just whats going on at amazon right now. I cant really tell you as an insider. But i think whats happening is kind of amazing. In that its nationwide area its entirely done by telephone and online. And its attracting a very interesting diverse mix of workers. Which amazon has. All the ages and skin colors and Different National backgrounds and everything. And its amazing that they just, they get along. That they are and that theyre very excited. And theyre moving from place to place. Building on the success in other spots. Because she is, amazons response to the promise or threat of reopening has been to cut back, to cut bait. They were paying 17 an hour for new workers. And now that theyve, that was two dollars more than as of may 1, that has been, im just looking this up. The 17 an hour was being brought back. I think the heroes they lasted for 30 days. Like what these companies. And i think thats what i sense is going on in general. As people think about giving up to going back towork. Possibly opening their factory gates and whatever again. The companies are thinking hey, were doing them a favor. Were giving them jobs. Jobs that they already had. And i hate that language, giving people jobs. People give you their labor. And you get very much little back for that. So theres this pushback now coming from the ceos saying weve suffered a lot. Weve suffered a lot during this period weve seen our stocks go up and down in crazy ways and so on. Now we need to be rewarded. And so the workers have to take a hit. So its quest one of the things they are complaining fighting about and amazon is getting paid sick days area nobody seems to have paid sick days. Anymore. And these are basic things that we have been talking about for everyone. I mean, yes. To me its just like i dont know if im just delusional here its like the fact that there is this glaringly obvious sort of blaring siren in the back of my head all the time which is that were the richest country in the world and its the least thinking of any area i mean, it just seemed like how could anyone come out of this opposing universal healthcare and sick leave for everyone, not Just Companies but then. All the things we dont have area. And anything about the election and then you just want to. I mean, i cant even. Think about that. Whats made you the maddest. Like, and were just sitting. What has infuriated you the most about i dont know, on the last couple of months. One of the things they gave me unfortunately, i think the attack on the working class going on now. In the United States as a whole. Infuriate me area its taking people who you know, have been underpaid and unused during their work lives for a long time and getting them while theyre down. I mean, what more can you do. That die or your employer. And that seems to be the new deal. You want the job, be prepared to die. And i dont even know where to start with this anger. How do we do this constructively . I think to me when i think about that, one of the things i think about is, one of the things i worry is that people are going to see lowwage workers as expendable. Theres already such, there is a tendency on the part of the wealthy businessman to viewport deserving of this status. If you make 12 an hour thats because of some sort of moral failing to be unable to make more. What they do, and you know if you dont have to do it for reason rather than for no reason at all really. That is the thing that has a lot of dread. Which i also think maybe at the same time this can be people for whom is becoming much clearer than it was have to press their lives for 17 an hour. I dont know what is going on with the consciousness of so many of our law makers. We are looking at Something Like 30 percent unemployment. That is worse than the great depression. We have no place two or no way of caring for these people medically. When we thinking. I worry because im always a little bit pop politically inclined. I can help it. Apocalyptic novels and so on. And here is where it is right in front of us. We have to get that mutual aid, that philosophy that you write about. My general class consciousness. They dont mean to be to exclude too many people. There people now who are going through very hard times and never imagined that. Is coming into their lives. But it was clear to me, to see that some people could work at home. That was a clue. Because who is going to work at home. The fedex delivery guy. No. People like you and i can. We got to work at home. Even the racial disparities. Like a pretty strong americans are of why people can work at home. But hispanic people cant. But one thing that i will say, the think that maybe, that this is not sort of thing where talking about. Have you seen obviously, meat packing plants. Is a job is mostly done by immigrants, it is sort of firm working conditions. Where you are close together. This governor of south dakota said that the outbreak among the meatpacking employees. As like their different social things that immigrants do. Barbara is a white why. The sort of thing like sort of when you said, like our legislature is personally blaming the lower class. Like, it is ridiculous. Barbara that is been a theme for so long. If you are poor or depressed economically it must be because youre doing something wrong. It. Tai it. Barbara this out it youre an addict. Whatever. That all of the ways of shaming which make the affluent do very well. Because i can say hey, i have done everything right. I have an education. Tai right. Barbara but that is all about to change. If im looking into the future, i am scared. If people are shooting at each other, getting into an and mcdonalds dining room. Theyre shooting at each other because are being told to socially distance and that dollar store. What is next. When you have an armed population. At least the rightwing side is armed. People are angry. Nobody is saying how to direct that anger. We are. Tai yes. I grew up in texas. My mom worked in the Hospital System there. And as the state reopens, like to me its like you want to dismiss is quite the portion of people want to reopen the economy that need money. But, to me like the fact like as soon as the states are allowed to reopen. It was like okay, so his way to cut off unemployment. Having to pay unemployment people anything to be about people like Service Workers a new salon workers. They will have to go back to work. They will make any money because nobody will come in. They cant get unemployment. In this like thats just it pretty. Barbara what is next. Is when you pick up a break brick. Tai maybe like a good way. [laughter]. You know, there are traditions of mutual aid. You mentioned of them. The history somewhat in your article. But i just wanted to throw in your summer of the moment. Tai oh yeah pretty. Barbara quite a position of selfhelp and mutual aid. Like around healthcare. Our own clinics. Teaching women how to do their own things. If these doctors are going to remain this way and we are going to figure out how to do it for ourselves. Meaning that spirit. And we can do things. I feel the same way about reproductive rights. It is easy enough to abort a tiny fetus. What we just saying, we can take this into our own hands. Tai yeah. I think i am trying to report on a really long piece about abortion activists right now. Because its