Transcripts For CSPAN2 After Words Mary Jordan The Art Of Her Deal 20240712

Washington post reporter mary jordan about her biography of first lady Melania Trump. The book is called the art of her deal. She was interviewed by usa today Washington Bureau chief susan page. Its great to talk to you. How are you . It seems to me Melania Trump is the most mysterious first lady weve ever had in modern times, the one we know the least about. Do you think that is true . I do. Thats why set up to do this because i thought that was just this strange void of facts, information. During the 2016 campaign i remember turning to the editor in the newsroom. I worked at the Washington Post and saying if donald trump wins, his wife is an immigrant, especially at the time he was having a rally that day really about the wall and keeping immigrants out. I started making calls and i just come it was shocking how little was known about basic biographical information. Donald trump has been in the public eye for ever it seems like. Why do we know so little about melania . Theres a bunch of reasons, but one she only arrived in america in 2006 so i had to travel to her native country, slovenia which is a small country carved out of the former yugoslavia. Yugoslavia when she was there was a socialist country. Didnt have great archives. Imploded right around the time she left. The bosnian war, that whole area was engulfed in conflict. Also she wants it that way. When i was going around, it was her interesting how many people had said i got a call this adult talk to anybody. She really has, shes really made a brand out of being the enigmatic mysterious melania. One aspect of it is people make a lot of assumptions about her that you discovered by doing reporting turned out not to be true. Talk about some of those. I think because we didnt see her on the campaign trail, we kind of dismissed her as shes not a player. It turns out that even though you dont see her, you certainly dont hear her, that she does have influence with her husband. During the campaign, many people come Forward Campaign managers would say that after a rally, trump would get in the car and the very first person he would call was okay, how did i do, what do you think . And then she would give them advice about what was resonating, what was it, what he could drop, and she also was kind of a cheerleader behind the scenes telling him as one person after another said she would say let trump be trump. She admired his connection to people. One of the reasons she admires that is its hard for her to do public speaking. English is not her first language. Thats one of the interesting things you discovered as well. There have been many stories written that Melania Trump like many europeans is fluent in multiple language, what, four languages. You found that is possibly not correct. All i could find basically, its very clear to me that there is no evidence of that. Because it was such a key part of her resume, i was just going through and checking things and i just wanted proof. I wanted documents. I even asked the white house, you know, theres a couple of pictures on line where she is in italy one in france where she speaks for very short time with little kids, like toddlers and she says things like hello but its not a fluency. So i said i cant find anything online, could you send it . Because she has had a lot of foreign trips and opportunities, like she has traveled as first lady, she met the pope, she is met italian figures, she met the french president and his wife. I just went around and it took months and months and asked everybody, okay, did you have private conversations with her . At least in the dozens of interviews that i did, nobody says that she did. Can iy say she doesnt do this . Im not saying that. Im just saying its very, very noticeable that theres no evidence of that. In the meantime Jackie Kennedy in the 60s way before iphones made it easy to have video, you can find Jackie Kennedy online tapes of her giving and long address in both french and she gives a speech in spanish. It just seems fair to say hey, tell me about this because its a key part of your resume. You have been a very experienced reporter. You have won the pulitzer prize, covered all kinds of stories. Was the white house pretty cooperative with you in doing this book . Well, i have been a foreign correspondent. I worked on three continents abroad for 15 years. I have written about drug cartels. I have actually interviewed the head of the mob in japan, not easy to get to. Drug leaders in prison, and nothing, nothing compared to a difficult it was to get Melania Trump real information. I had a for instance, when i did interview her during the campaign, i had to be invited by her husband was a little bit busy running for president. I just thought it was very interesting right then when it asked for an interview that i was directed to talk to him first. What did he want to know about you . It wasnt exactly said that way. It was just i asked for an interview for melania and all of a sudden they said mr. Trump would like to see. I cant on the train. I lived in washington and i went to trump tower, this is during the campaign, he was pretty busy, and a member walking into the office in trump tower and he had about 100 magazines on his desk. Every single one of them had a picture of himself on them, if any had the walls lined with photos of yourself and theres so many it was an overflow and it was leaning against the wall. I said i did know you were moving. It was such a mess, i thought he was moving. He said no, no, no. Never trust anybody with a tidy desk. It was a bizarre yet very trumpian conversation where he had a Little Television on his desk, his very messy desk that hes very proud of, watching the masters Golf Tournament so he would talk about that and then return back to me. We would talk about jared, then in comes jared. Hes very, he speaks theres not a lot of linear thought but he did say, i asked him about melania and he said only great things about her, and then apparently i got the green light because i spoke to his wife afterwards. Melania trump has done very few interviews. She did do the interview with you during the campaign she wouldnt do in person, is a bright . It was by phone . Even then, even then shall he did it by phone. I spoke to her for 44 minutes. Normally you dont ever say 44 minutes but thats a long time her to talk to someone. Whats so interesting about it is she has one heck of a story to tell. Think of it, she was 26 years old when she first arrived in the united states, and 20 years later, 2016 she is in the white house. Incredible story. She grew up very modestly in a socialist country in a modest apartment, her mom worked in a factory and now she is married to a rich guy and living in the white house. I think, like its really hard to understand why she didnt want to be more forthcoming. Its not her nature. She has read all of the donald trump books and she does, her branding is exactly opposite is. Trump became trump because he never stopped talking. He was in every magazine. He put his name on every building. It was trump buildings and trump magazines. Shes the opposite. She knew she wasnt comfortable in the public eye but she is as extreme in her own secretive ducks the question stay silent as he is, you know, go in front of the camera. In fact, you say that ivanka trump had a nickname for her as the portrait, and im sure that reflects that she was always beautifully dressed and poised, but not silent, and Melania Trump called ivanka trump the princess. To be clear, they didnt use those words to their faces. But i thought, this was when ivanka was kind of young, a teenager and her dad started going out, had been divorced now twice. He was still in the middle of the divorce with marla maples when he took up with melania. Ivanka said oh, my god, she talks about as much as a painting on the wall, and then they started calling her the portrait. Ivanka and melania both former models could not be more different. Its not a big surprise that they dont get along. Lets go back to melanias origins. Her parents continue to be enormously important in her life. You can tell that, they lived nearby. Tell us about her mother and father. I am most fascinated by her mother, amalija. Shes most important person according to everyone i talk to you far the most important person in melanias life. She is with her most days that melania is in the white house. Her mom is right there. She cooks. She takes care of barron. Shes the right hand and the left hand to melania. Thats what a friend of hers told me. Her mom is fascinating because she grew up, world war ii was tearing her apart and are family had to flee what was then yugoslavia. And she was beautiful. She was silent. She was a talented seamstress. She worked in this building that i went into, was a former monastery and then when the communist dictator josef tito took over after world war ii, he kind of took all the catholic and other church land in nationalized it, s6 of state factory that made clothes, and amalija worked there for three decades and because she didnt have a College Degree or the right degree, she didnt really get paid or recognition for the talent she had. But everyone in town said she was the most stylish, and that when melania was little and melanias sister, they had clothes, and made clothes that put them a part, and that was important in the time when everybody was the same. Every building seem to be the color of a storm cloud. If you were a family of one side, that meant that was the same size of your partner you got. Everybody went to the government owned vacation homes. To stand apart come to look beautiful, to have handmade clothes, everybody remembers the mother and what she did for the kids. You went to this place, this town where she lived. What do they think about melania . Arthur melania gift shops and souvenirs . First of all, herbal town is gorgeous. It reminds me of ireland actually. Its all green. Its a small country. Its only 2 million people. Her little town is pretty small. It had one hotel and battlefield opened because of melania the people were coming to it. About 50,000 people. Its got trees. People have their own its right outside the rim, all green and lush and lovely. People there are divided like in the united states, and its pretty much because of her husband. Theres a lot of people in pretty much every country including our own that either loath donald trump or love them. That has filtered down and its hard for her to escape that. Theres a lot of division over there. In addition to that theres quite a lot of disappointment that she doesnt speak about her country anymore. And that translates there as you know, why doesnt she . Is she embarrassed . I think that its telling that the most famous slovenian in america is a basketball player for the mavericks, and its not melania. Isnt that incredible . Luka, luka, the basketball superstar is most famous and certainly the most written about slovenian. One of the things you write about in the book that i felt so interesting was that were important people to melania in early childhood, early in her career, and yet she doesnt seem to have kept up with him. She doesnt seem to have kept a network of friends from her life. Is that true . Why do you think that has happened . It is one of the facts of her life that is almost like she took a big eraser and when one chapter was done, its gone. Childhood friends said, there was a little girl who, very close to, they were in matching high rises and they played every day. That woman is now an artist, a very talented woman and she said as soon as melania went to the capital of slovenia, and many other people tell the same story. , that was it. Photographers who would help her get her pictures when she was 21 said that was it. She just kept moving on. She never looked back, never talk to the past. That made it easy when she met trump, because trump was not interested in her past. Trump is interested in trump, as many people have told me. Heard that same phrase over and over, and one of the reasons that trump divorced his second wife marla maples is that she was always having people around her, her mother and father, cousins. Melania does have her mother and father but they are super quiet. The public doesnt even really know about them, and she certainly has not brought people from her past in. It was striking at her wedding 99 points 99. 9 of the guests were people that she met through donald trump. So you told us about her mom. Her father is still around an important figure. Tell us about him. Her father is really close to barron. Donald trump likes to golf at barron likes to play soccer. Melanias father, viktor, is a great soccer fan. Barron speaks slovenian through his grandparents, and the father, theres lots of cartoons in slovenia about how much donald looks like melanias father, viktor. They both are a bit, you know, they are not thin and they both are about the same age. Viktor used to be a really good looking guy. Now hes in his 70s. Hes more outspoken. I talked to his buddies in slovenia, and they said, you know, he was a car buff growing up. He was brilliant with cars. He could take apart and put together cars. He repaired cars. He was a chauffeur. He was a chauffeur for a mayor in the town. He had the nicest car in town. He loved mercedes. Think of it. Heres this guy who was the chauffeur and for a little time had a a little tiny shop aftere country became independent. Think of it, like the former chauffeur is now being driven by secret service, has all the cars he wants. Its really an amazing story. You talked about how Melania Trump rarely talks about her native country and thats true but i was surprised to learn in the art of her deal that she has joint citizenship, continues to have joint citizenship, and that barron, her son, has joint citizenship. Why has she maintained her joint citizenship and why did she make sure her son had it as well . I think this is super interesting, because yet again, i think its interpreted by many in europe that she doesnt talk about it, the old days because she doesnt care about them, that is never the case with melania and she which was more complicate and he wants that people give her credit for. She did that im sure, and according to those who spoke with her, to give her son options. If you have slovenian citizenship, which barron is entitled to, and the passport, that makes a lot of things easier. First of all he can work freely in all of europe, much more easily. Its as if somebody is coming from another country, the u. S. Right now. Its tough to get, for a foreigner, namely because of her has been, it is gotten more tough to get a job. So if he wants to go to start a paris bureau or slovenia, its much easier for him. It just gives you more options. She also likes that he speaks slovenian, has a slovenian passport. There was an amazing press conference and i found the video and talk to everybody in the room that day was still alive. There was only one person of all these of journalists who met her in 1998 in paris where she had a rare day when all day long she was talking to journalists and i spent months tracking everyone there to be what she had to say because it was a rare time when she was so outspoken and there was no trump anywhere. It was melania. This was melania center stage. One of the things she kept talking about was somewhat someone asked her, she kept saying i love new york and someone said would you like to get u. S. Citizenship . And she said yes, because its more option, more opportunities. She is a mama bear with her son and she was just given more options and opportunities by giving him citizenship and passport, easier for him to get a a job or set up a business, easier for him to inherit land. Its mama bear i think just getting options to her son. Its quite remarkable, the first lady and her americanborn son have joint citizenship. Im just quite sure that is never happened before. Weve only had one first lady before who was born abroad, that was louisa adams and i was quite a while ago. And that was england. Wasnt a socialist country. And melania is the only first lady who didnt, whose first language is not english. You talked about how protected she is of her son barron, which of course we can all understand. But the story, the disclosure in your book that has gotten the most attention is her efforts to renegotiate her prenup after the election in 2016, which had a lot to do with barron. That was just an explosive story. Tell us about that. You know, donald trump has written many, many books, has certainly said in tv interviews that any rich guy who doesnt get a prenup is a loser, stupid i think was the word he also used. So we knew that they had a prenup. In fact, melania was on tv around the time of the and suggest that they had a prenup. So we knew that we also know that trump was very he said he is the greatest appreciate her in the world. Negotiator. In his book, the art of the deal, he talks about why he is such a good negotiator and he says i know how to get leverage. Leverage is when you have what somebody else wants. Or better yet, cant do without. So heres melania who by all accounts of those Company People that i talked to, did not get a very good deal. Because trump drove a hard bargain in the prenup. And we know that his first two wives have said publicly that they asked and wanted more than they got. She waits. Shes a chess player, a long game player, and politics has been great for the leverage table for Melania Trump because once he went into the public arena he needed her in a new way. For instance, they were negotiated a prenup during the famous and swat on the tarmac in israel in 2017. Glaciations were going on then negotiations were going on then and it was very noticeable then that she seemed very happily with him. The hand swat that went around the world. Then she stayed in new york. All of those things showed that she knows how to make a deal and that shes a darn good dealmaker. She would not call it making a deal. What she said was i want to do this to make sure that barron is treated as equally as the oldest three children. The oldest three being ivanka, eric and don jr. Who are the ones mostly front and center in trump world, work at trump or and get a lot more attention than tiffany, the child with marla maples, or with barron. It works, right . I dont have specific i was told it was more the money she wanted. She wanted to make sure that barron had a steak and was treated equally, especially because the older three children now have their children, you know . And theres a lot more trump heirs. Melania is 50. Donald trump is 24 years older. Barron is still only 14. Ive been fascinated by the cartoons that people are drawing because of the book, and all about the prenup and they had things about eric trump now working for barron trump because melania in the long run, as quite as she was, always was the quiet one, did get according to three different people i talked to a far better deal. So heres the big question. Its a hard question because marriages are mysterious things. But you spent all this time doing research, doing thinking about melania and donald trump. What do you think is the nature of the attraction . What is the strength and quality of their marriage . You know, like you said, susan, love is complicated. I think trump love is really complicated. But i am told and i have seen that when they first got together there was a real connection there. I think it was real. He admires her because shes cool. When she gets angry she doesnt scream or do something impulsive. She just walks away. He loves her cool. And she admires him here she admires what hes able to do. She admires his direction of the his connection to people. They are both really distrustful of most people. They both like the same things in some ways. They both value image. They both value beautiful things, wealthy things. They both like a lot of the same things. I think that they actually have a lot more in common than people think, and they are a really tight unit, family, trump, trump, trump. And for her its her family, her mother, her father and barron, very tight group and very few other penetrate and know the inner person. I think the relationship clearly has hit rocks at different times, been up and down. They have been together for 22 years. I have a lot in the book about this, but she was furious about the revelations about his infidelity, embarrassed to no end as she was reading about Stormy Daniels and karen hollywood. But she has an extraordinary capacity to kind of figure out okay, what is my next best move . Somebody who has known her for a long time was sanctioned always thinks that way. She doesnt do anything in a hurry, and did she get more from walking away from trump or staying with him . Thats how she thinks. Do you think those disclosures, they were certainly embarrassing. Do you think they were surprising to her . Several key people told me that she learned new details from all those press reports. She did not know the details. I find it hard to believe that she didnt know she knew that something was going on, but im pretty clear the details and the publicity about it. She has a son. It was the news was everywhere. She hates how he talks. That access Hollywood Tape when he was caught on talking, caught on tape, tens of millions of people heard him say really grows, lewd things about i can grant anyone i want. Highly embarrassing. She did know that tape existed. She didnt know really all that she was going to be in for when he went into politics. But at that moment that was a crucial moment. She could have blown up his president ial ambitions by publicly rebuking him, walking away. It was a perilous time for donald trump during the 2016 camping but she didnt. She stood by him. Whats your sense about why she did that . Thats a great, theres a scene in the book about this, because trump was in trump tower with all pics, chris christie, bannon, the whole inner circle. Its one month to november 2016 election, and they hit play and the room listens to that access Hollywood Tape and just trump was getting read from here on out. Everybody, some people thought the campaign was dead there. Other people moving quickly into, okay, how are we going to spin this . But it was pretty clear pretty quickly that trump was really just worried about melania because he knew that it she didnt stand by him right then, why would female voters . It was a close race. Hillary clinton was going to be the first woman president , and without her backing him up, i think in a close election, meaning he didnt even when most votes. He just won the key states, ad 10,000 votes in one state made a difference in some cases. I went to pennsylvania right after that because melania spoke. Pennsylvania was the key ground and it was in the end less, less than a fraction of 1 so they they sent melania out there and she stood up to a crowd, it was a daytime crowd, most women in the crowd, and vouched for him, and he won pennsylvania. And i think nobody would dispute in that campaign how important she was at that moment. Just her presence made a difference in the campaign at that moment, but you write about other ways in which she had influence over donald trump including some of the most from the middle decisions, who to run choose us running that, that melanias voice was an important one when he was thinking about that. What did she do . What influence did she have on that decision . Again, this is why people underestimate her, because you dont see her. She famously doesnt go into the west wing. She stays in the first ladies quarters in the east wing of the white house or in their more quiet residential parts but shes on the phone and he has brought in candidates for key jobs in the administration, and they are mostly run through her. The reason, because he really doesnt trust that many people and he thinks she has good instincts. For instance, during the campaign when he was trying to figure out who to pick for Vice President , the last three were former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, former new jersey governor is christie, and mike pence chris christie. She spent two days with the pences. In july of 2016. She met Newt Gingrich and there was talk about maybe it will be Newt Gingrich because he really needs help on capitol hill and theres all the speculation. But the people again that i spoke with who were right in the middle of this said, once melania said the donald, mike pence is your guy because he will be content to be a number two and not be gunning for your job like the other two alphas. One of the people who is telling me said that she felt the other two were alphas and that pence would be content to be just Vice President. Its interesting to me that she both thought that but also knows how to convince her argument to trump in a way thats appealing because as Anthony Scaramucci told me, trump likes to be the star and doesnt like costars. And again, that was a very appealing way to present the Vice President ial candidate. He didnt want a costar. Sometimes and i think this happens, sometimes people say why do we care about first ladies . Why should we pay any attention to first ladies . Why does it matter . If someone said that to you, what would you say to them . Why should we care about Melania Trump . When i asked somebody, somebody who knows a lot about first ladies, whos written a marvelous book called the matriarch, susan, you know a lot about this subject and a good answer but i would love to hear she wrote matriarch about george bush is wife, barbara bush. A terrific book that answers this question. So you first and then i will go. You know, for barbara bush i think part of it was the era in which she grew up. When she was in, at center stage. She was born in 1925. Women did not, before that, women did not have the opportunities they have now. Women were often not taken that seriously. Barbara bush was very accustomed and comfortable wielding significant influence behind the scenes. I think some of that is change and once we have our first husband instead of a first wife, maybe that will change more. Do you find that that attitude prevails even now, a tendency not to recognize the influence that they can have . I think that if we write about a cabinet member, we sure should be writing about whoever it is, whether its Kitchen Cabinet or, you know, we should be writing about who was influencing one of the most powerful people if not the most powerful person in the world. So to say she is not consequential misses the point. She is also a historic figure. Theres not that many women in all of history who live in the white house, she asked the staff, taxpayerfunded staff of a hundred. Who is this person . She has a platform that potentially can do a lot. Now, her influence so far has not been the best platform. It has been behind the scenes harder to see. I think the reason we are interested is it sheds light on to the president is and also its very important to know who are the influences of someone who has that much power. Do you think Melania Trump likes being first lady . Yes. She has to grimace sometimes, that cold look. She looks trapped as people, comedy skits have said. People talk about you see her behind the scenes. I seen this light at the best events. She would be smiling and natural happy talk to the kids, and then she walks out and she looks like someone has a gun behind her. She looks like she is forced out. When i was in both milan where she worked as a model and in slovenia, people said in the 90s she was trained that way. You were supposed to not smile. Because you didnt want to draw attention away from what you are modeling, the clothes your modeling. Some of it is how she was trained, but even more than that she came second in this very important modeling contest in slovenia when she was 21. Its a big deal, right . It was nationally televised. There were hundreds of applicants. It was narrowed down to ten finalists. She is tied to this place. I talked to many people there that night. They said you would never have known she won. Completely emotionless. She was only 21. Some of it is just her. She doesnt show that she likes being first lady, by all accounts she likes to be where the action is. She loves meeting famous people. She loved meeting the pope, the queen. She gets to travel to interesting places. I think, i mean, she cant love everything because theres a lot of stuff online we know she hates, but i think she really enjoys the white house. To your knowledge did she reach out to any previous first lady to get guidance or talk about the job . And does she have a circle of friends that she turns to for guidance . Because she does seem, she seems like a pretty isolated figure is looking at her, what we see of her publicly. Yes, and i think this is too bad really. I think that, i mean, she doesnt reach out enough. She certainly hasnt reached out to michelle obama. She has had tea with laura bush, but theres no, i cant even to Rosalynn Carter who was talking, just what you said, susan, like it is important. There are several living people who have been in this really unusual role, right . They are not elected but they are still public. Really her counsel is her mother, and very few and donald trump. Think about how isolating that is. I think that would be hard. Is there a previous first lady that she wants to be like that she is kind of modeling herself in the mold of . She was asked that question. She was asked this question in 1999 over and over. Because people forget that trump was first publicly talking running for president in 1999 and 2000. So i found, some of them were not easy to find because they are not archived but like george magazine, for instance, there was a headline about the first babe. Like if donald trump won, she would be the first babe. They were in talk magazine. I found this picture of her. She was wearing a bikini and line on a rug with the president ial seal in a mock oval office. So at the time people were joking about it. They didnt think trump was serious, yet there were these stories, but in these stories she was asked, which he be liked. So while dressed in a bikini, about to lie on a rug for this photo, she said id like to be traditional like Jackie Kennedy. You know, shes over and over talked about Jackie Kennedy. Clearly her mother, you know, who is brunette, very good looking, very elegant was called when she was a factory worker by her friends jackie because she was so elegant. Its kind of an amazing story that the mom now spends a lot of time in the white house sitting in Jackie Kennedys rose garden. It is a remarkable story. The 2020 campaign has gotten offended by covid19. Appended its going to be a Campaign Like no modern campaign. What role do you think Melania Trump was going to play . Was it up bigger role in 2016 . Given new constraint what should we expect to see from her during this campaign . We are waiting to see how covid is going going to change it but it was fairly big news that she announced, again before covid, that she was going to go fund raise. Oh, my gosh this woman who basically ceded that role to ivanka to be front and center was going to do it. She has the most popular ratings. Everyone knew precovid this would be a tough race. The republicans wanted melania. Her poll numbers are better so she said she would go to Beverly Hills to the thick fundraiser and another fundraiser. Those have been canceled because of covid, and she is far more careful and talking about Wearing Masks than her husband so its unclear what shes going to do. She likes to cut videos, kind of polished videos because she likes to have control. I would pretty much guess that there will be some Campaign Videos that melania is doing urging people to both donate and vote for trump. Is she a political asset . Yes. I mean, if you talk to her campaign, yes, shes a big asset. But she was huge during 2016. Im in pennsylvania right after access hollywood interviewing women that day. It was days to go to the vote. I said, you know, what you think of melania right after access hollywood standing up . And they said you know, shes so beautiful, this woman said, shes so beautiful that it says something about trump. She could be with a lot of different people. He cant be that bad. She wouldnt put up with it. She definitely is an asset in different ways. Do you think she wants him to win a second term . Well, you know, things are changing rapidly because now theres an eightfoot fence chain link fence around the white house. When i spent too much time since 2016 campaign talking to people about that, most of my interviews were done before these latest protests, the racial problems in the country, the civil unrest and this fence that has all these black lives matter. Everyone i talked to said she wanted to win again. She doesnt like to lose. She is ambitious. She was upset about the impeachment. There was a bunker mentality where she hunkered down and wanted to fight, thought that a second term would vindicate the trump name. Also, she was thinking of barron. If he wins another four years its kind of perfect because, for him, she thought, because hes 14. Four more years hes ready for college. Again, this is what people are telling me then. Ive got to believe that the recent events and all the protests may change as i said their relationship goes up and down. I thought it was very noticeable that she did not go across the street to the infamous night when there was teargas clearing out protesters right in front of the white house, and then trump came and held up a bible and had a famous photo op. She was not there. I thought that was really interesting. It was interesting in your book to read that she was an important voice urging him to run the first time. Yes. That she took him seriously as a president ial contender and most of us were not. While that is and thats why, thats the bond. Even his own lawyers were telling me, trump thinks about trump. Trump likes people who think about trump. Melania thinks about trump, and she has been really his biggest supporter. She told them, for instance, that, you know, forget all these people that are mocking you. She believed that he could win and that was really important to him. She urged him to do it. I think its fascinating that she came from another country. She read a lot and it drives some people in the white house crazy because she find all these critical things and she will bring to the attention of trump and trouble get upset, but her point is that she wants trump to know whos on his side and who has a loyalist and nonloyalist. People are upset that melania, in one way shes not elected, right . Shes just an influence but its hard to know what youre saying before, what am i supposed to think about this first lady. Is she really liked trump . Well, the answer with everything, its complicated. Shes like him in some ways and not in other ways. She has been with him at the critical moments, and one of the things that surprised people is given her own history on immigration, that she would be with a man who takes such a negative view of immigration when herself, her parents, her sister have all benefited by relatively open immigration to the united states. This is the most important thing to me. Youll see a lot about this in the book. She helped her parents become u. S. Citizens, and in the same week that they got their citizenship, trump complained about what he called chain migration, which is exactly what melania had just done. Meaning that she had become a citizen and then helped her parents, you know, the chain of going down the family line. It is unbelievable that, you know, it helped his own immediate family and what he has said. He has made it harder for all kinds of immigrants to come to this country. Hes really made a lot of the language really ugly about it, and i think that many extended family members in slovenia are most upset about this. Now, melania has had very tepid but very clear distance from that from him, like she first of all, you know, has said that she didnt want the border policy that separated kids at the border. She allowed her attorney to go on tv after, the attorney that helped her parents to go on tv and the identified as melanias attorney lasting trump, her husband, for what he was saying, those ugly words. But is it enough . I dont think its enough for most people. They are disappointed that she hasnt said more. So far as you know, if you spent a long working on this book, that her parents and her self and her sister come here following the rules when it came to immigration . She did it seems to me, according to the documents that i have seen, she the one thing, it was very complicated because its very suspicious that she wont say the lawyer that worked with a rigidly, you know . Thats just a big flag. Trump doesnt give his tax documents and thats a flag. You just feel like why doesnt she lay out the documents . Its a fair question and a lot of immigration ngos have said look, immigration is a centerpiece of his campaign, his whole, you know, trump build the wall, so lets see what your wife did. She doesnt show us the papers. She doesnt tell us the lawyer. The Associated Press did a terrific investigative piece where they got some lectures that looks like when she first came to the country on a visitors visa, which meant she could be legally here but she wasnt supposed to work, that she had ten jobs. Now, it was in a sixweek period and then she meagerly got her work visa. But again in normal times people wouldnt look at this but when your husband would throw so many out of the country for doing exactly that, its fair to say, its there to talk about. Once she did that she followed all the other steps. Her parents and her sister, does it look like they followed the rules of the day . They had the money to get great lawyers and they had Melania Trump helping them, so they probably, i think its fair to say had a leg up, but sure. This is the way america works, right . You immigrants come in. Its hard to say she hasnt done well. She lived in a modest apartment where she had a futon and now now she has trump tower, bedminster, maralago and they do well in america then they bring some of their family members over. Thats the country we know. Its just donald trump has said he wants to change that. I got time for one more. The art of her deal your book, its the reporters book. I 100 dont want to make i didnt set out, had no interest in making a case for or against. But heres my it is filling in the void. Its more trying to explain this interesting consequential and little known figure. As my last question let me ask you, what kind of response have you gotten since the book came out its gotten a fair amount of attention. What kind of response have you gotten from the white house and from team trump . I think the public response is how you view her is colored by how you view him. They dont want to even those who dont like him, and there are a lot who have intense dislike, just very hard for them to even, like she cant be with him. So theres that. So how could you even write about that . And then those who like him are saying how can you be so mean to her . Why did you talk about the fact that she has exaggerated her resume . So im getting hit from both sides, and again, i just think my job was just to get some documents, videos, actual facts about who this woman is. White house came out with a statement, although he said, theres no specifics. They just said filed it in the fiction genre, you know . I dont know. There was no specific fact they disputed . I sent questions over to the white house seven months before publication asking for fact checks, asking for another interview, asking to talk to other people. Nothing. They would just say send more questions. They wanted to know what i had. I remember like i just wanted to know what day, you said in september 1998 that melania met donald trump. Can you tell me what day it is . They wont even tell me that. She likes that gap. She likes the mystery. I was just setting out to try to fill in those gaps. Thank you. Thanks for the conversation and thanks for writing this book. Thanks, susan. This was fun. You are watching booktv on cspan2, every weekend with the latest nonfiction books and authors. Cspan2, created by americas cabletelevision company as a Public Service and brought to you today by your television provider. Weeknights this month were featuring booktv programs as a preview of whats available every weekend on cspan2. Enjoy booktv on cspan2. Cspans live coverage of the Republican National Convention Continues tonight at 8 30 p. M. Eastern with first lady Melania Trump, secretary of state mike pompeo, a kentucky senator rand paul. Watch live on cspan, live stream , live stream and on demand at cspan. Org rnc, or listen with the cspan radio app. Cspan, your unfiltered view of politics. Booktv on cspan2 has top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. Watch booktv this weekend on cspan2. Next on booktv a conversation with authors of biographies on mary washington, the mother of george washington. This comes to us from George Washingtons mount vernon