Every once in a while you make a few friends but what a remarkable story here. You arrive in the United States born in india. Granddaughter of an Indian Police officer, remarkable mother and father so motivated. Tell us come i know we will talk about immigration that has been the policy through your Public Service but start what that was like he said you come to the airport with two suitcases and thats it. Yes. Thank you for taking the time to do this. Is such a pleasure to have an indepth conversation with a colleague. Something we dont get to do. I landed here a few months before he turned 17. I came by myself. My dad at 5000 and spent all of it to send me here he thought this would be where i would have the most opportunity in the best education i show up at jfk with my two suitcases thats all you can bring without having to pay for more baggage. I just remember how strange it was to see first of all not the diversity of people that i was used to seeing ally the physical displays of affection i wasnt used to seeing it in Asia Mcdonalds and burger king what you dream about and indonesia they hadnt made it to that part of the world yet but then to be in a completely new place with a completely new environment not knowing if you would fit in our how. I went to georgetown undergraduate hear the Nations Capital and i remember when i landed at georgetown i went to the foreign Student Office to get all my information and they said something about being a foreign student but not getting my rooming assignment the guy was very well meaning all he heard was foreign student and said do you speak english . I remember being so surprised jokingly saying i do but only if you talk very slowly. [laughter] so that was the beginning of my entry into the United States. I never dreamt i would be sitting here talk to you as a member of congress. Host absolutely. I would encourage people to read the book just to see how somebody arrives at age 17 for the First Time Ever and that results in a person becoming a member of congress. This will be fun because you are a leader of the progressive ring of the Democratic Party and the leader of the new democrat coalition. One of the things that was fun about your book is to stereotype progressives they will have to grapple with the fact he went to Business School and worked on wall street in a medical device corporation. A wonderfully rich portrait how the world is so much more complicated than stereotype suggest. So talk about that. And how the private sector informs you. That stems from my dad wanted me to be the ceo of ibm said you have to be a doctor or lawyer or engineer those are the three acceptable professions and i got a degree in economics but then i decided i wanted to be in english lit major i called my dad with my one phone call per year he screamed at me and said i send you to the United States to speak english you already know how to speak english. I promised him i would get the same job with an english degree as an economics Degree Program at this time in the mid eighties, wall street was a place you wanted to work if you are smart and competitive. So thats what i did i worked on wall street for painewebber investment banking, i did a lot of things that no 20 yearold ever should have done frankly representing companies in bankruptcy proceedings and leverage buyouts. I realized it wasnt for me but i people its important to know what you dont want to do as much as you do. But also the skills you gain along the way are invaluable. Anybody can put a spreadsheet in front of me i work a very complex 300 page spreadsheets before excel was a thing and i could find the errors understand financials a masters in business i sold medical defibrillators they feel every single one made me better prepared to be in congress because as you were implying thing long as people think progressive completely divorced from business not understanding economics. I think those portrayals are true bad people are always surprised to hear about my background. But it has helped to inform my view of wall street accountability supporting main street and what action makes good economic sense what is good and pragmatic and practical in my world is based on how i think what the future looks like from an Economic Perspective as well as a social perspective. It is really interesting biography i worked at a bank for the while. Euro whole two years older than me and all your wisdom. [laughter] but i agree with you 100 percent. I felt like i was learning a lot and learning those negotiation skills that are important to politics but then you make a wonderful transition into the issue that animates your book you are not satisfied her with that Global Engagement in the private sector and you go abroad but now all of a sudden the whole concept of immigratio immigration, you say in the book you understand what drives migrants. Lets talk about that. Because its the core sadly not at the policy debate, we play defense against the president who has created a redhot core of anger quite frankly to describe immigrants as criminal criminals. Given where you come from, this book with the immigration debate of morality , here we are at a moment with the most dysfunctional non conversation about immigration that i can remember, i know 9 11 was important to you but what makes you passionate about moral immigration policy . When i was in thailand between graduate school i had this opportunity working for three months for the largest nonprofit and i happened to go to the largest refugee camp at the time mostly from cambodia and laos. It was a stunning experience for me. Deeply moving to see people being bombed there was a bombing in the camp just days before i arrived. So is still a very active camp. Most of the folks there thought they would be there for a very short time to get permanently settled coming out of wars losing family and children and you could just see the resilience that people have and how difficult life is those who are in terrible economic situations drought , war and the formation i think about as immigration or migration in the moment just experiencing what was happening, but definitely a core piece how i related to the issue of immigration about other people. My experience was relatively privileged. I spoke the language. I went to college. All these Different Things that allowed my experience to be a lot easier than the people i worked with. Later switching from the private sector i worked in International Health and development and i worked all over the world india, africa, asia, latin america, everywhere. And again i saw the challenges are the root causes of migration and that has always been my orientation how we think of immigration in terms of root causes and how people get here. The 9 11 hit and i thought about it from the perspective to be a us citizen and an immigrant here in the United States what does our immigration policy need to be . So then it started to be the largest immigrant Advocacy Organization and many policies in washington along with immigrants to live in the work over the last two decades to preserve for everybody. I got to know the policy detail. I talk in the book how there is such a lack of new wants to the debate of immigration where in fact the system is so unbelievably complex and everybody has a story to tell unless you are native american if africanamerican or you are brought over on slave ships its a very different situation but everybody else has a story to tell about a parent or grandparent or great grandparent coming to the United States and the moral core of that identity as a nation of immigrants. That has been very important to me to make sure we explained to the American People how we have not had a system of immigration laws. We had a few here and there are one or president has managed to move a complete overhaul of immigration laws forward, but its been decades. Our system has not been fixed in decades with no major change. That is untenable for a country that has such deep Economic Needs and societal and familial needs. And whose identity is focused on the role of immigrants and building our country. Host that is absolutely righ right. One of the things for all of us from the president s point of view is deeply immoral and we will come back to that morality. It is built on lies we are a nation of immigrants if you talk to Business People and take the moral approach they will tell you absolutely essential to have more robust immigration a Software Programmer from Washington State or the agricultural worker or those that are unseen but deemed essential ironically. So describe the for us, its not hard to look at that mass looking at family separation but to think in moral term terms, describe what you think this is really your thing and has been for decades, if you can wave a magic wand and American Immigration policy would change overnight, what would that look like how does that compare to a bill passed United States senate five or six years ago was 67 senatorial votes very different on difficult path of citizenship employment identification and verification but it got 60 votes in the senate. Tell us your view of a good immigration policy and what it looks like with very strong bipartisan manner five or six years ago. I was on the outside pushing for that bill there is a lot of compromises we didnt like but there were major components a lot of americans will say what the president said or even people before the president he has just been taken to a completely new level something no other president before him has done in history. That people say you should get online. There is no line in the United States there is no system but it took me 18 years to a whole host of reasons so the first thing we need to do is rectify the system so there is a process to navigate to join a family or work temporarily or be a studen student. Those quotas set three decades ago need to be completely updated. To have a system Going Forward you have to provide a pathway to citizenship for those that are here. Why . They primarily have been living here between 15 and 17 years, decades. But but if they all left the entire economy would collapse so lets recognize we to do the work we need them to do. So give them a path to citizenship and allow them to come out of the shadows. Because of the way President Trump talks about the undocumented but that conduct actually had republican support because they understood the Food Supply Chain the farms and the meatpacking plants simply dont work without that population. And despite of what trump has said there was still substantial support which is amazing given that demonization. But my followers that the washington and chamber of commerce there is a clear sense with the path to citizenship and humane reform. That we need to fix the system. There are humanitarian ways to see the United States as the beacon of hope and light. And traditionally very bipartisan support policy likes to talk about the calling the crown jewel of humanitarianism. This is another place where donald trump has destroyed everything that has to do with people seeking refuge. He has shut down the Refugee Resettlement program. Were barely taking any. Shut down the asylum program. Were barely taking any. We shut off all legal ways for people to come. We should be clear that his opposition is not just to undocumented immigrants but all legal immigration. Thats why he tried to ban student visas. Waited is why he tries to shut down legal immigrant programs for people coming here. He has rolled back all of that. So just to be clear his agenda and those were around to been the white house is no immigration. This will die without immigration that is clear. I agree no president has made immigration so toxic as part of their approach. However at some level it is the same old same old. The way the chinese immigrants were talked about in the 18 hundreds. And this has been the experience of the Irish Catholics and the mediterranean with the german and Northern European immigrants and its ironic because as you point out we all come from somewhere unless we are indigenous to the continent. So to get behind the politics it is absurd. That this country says its value is to a be a beacon to the world for 240 years we have been absolutely brutal to the latest wave of immigrants. What is going on their . How do we change that . Because if we dont there will be a demagogue who will take on the latest round. We have to fix the policy in spite of what people say. Every Immigration Reform happens the tremendous resistance be at the president that has overseen that has actually moved it forward despite any concern that she might have about what the reaction might be because it is good for the country that helps what happened for civil rights and every difficult transition a country has to make. And then remove that obstacle. And that it will continue to divide us and americans have a very complex history and that has to do with the fact that fear of the other can be used. And for people to reconnect with our immigrant history. The policy is not hard. We have crafted policy around this over and over. We know we need to do. There are some things i would change today we have moved on from where that is. With the United States to preserve our National Security to have a functioning immigration system to keep track of everyone that comes in. We have circular flow migration which was very popular in earlier decades but has gone away. You dont build walls or bridges you have borders that are secure but they are secure with systems to allow people to go in and out not the other way around. We have to go up a few times where donald trump fires up people based on the immigrant base. And that goes through everything else. And anything that any president can go to over and over again. We do have the history and the identity we just have not done the policy. If we were given a path to citizenship in the senate bill passed, of all the things we have been spending and the department of Homeland Security with a far more secure country. But it doesnt make a difference. Event in southwestern connecticut using brutal language with the undocumented. The economy of the area i represent came to a grinding halt if undocumented would disappear. And to reframe and remind people and we need to grapple with the attacks of the right wing. We dont call them illegals but yet they are here on the illegal and a documented basis. That is the affront to the rule of law. And then to say immigration policy is hard and complicated we have to acknowledge we are in the economy. You cannot come to the Public Square dehumanizing people are suggesting all immigrants are drug dealers or subhuman. That is from your religious faith. To do things that are not radically different. So now the fervor leaves the room i feel that appeals to course human values were talking about human beings and with the language of donald trump and that criticism. A system in which you would be accused of supporting illegals terrible language. We all acknowledge 12 Million People living in the shadows undocumented is a terrible system. Right . On fox news the president says he wants completely open borders i know that means that uncontrolled entry by anyone so can you address those fantasies . I go on fox news quite a bit and i have to laugh because i never talking to the anchor whose job it is to get explosive as possible but talking to those who watch fox news that are looking for a new way to think about things i understand your frustrated because you havent been able to find a good job. Before covid hit we had the worst income inequality and wealth inequality weve seen since the 19 twenties talking to people about their situation first to have a decent opportunity. And then in that moment its easy to blame somebody. We been in the situation before. Downplayed the immigrant like you said getting people to connect back how they came to the country and third in terms of the border i find that so funny because were actually talking about a system so you could know whos coming in in and out and allow people to be with their family used to be afraid of family values so what happened to family values blocking kids in cages are separate a child from their parent. White teeth you t have what you need for the heart and soul of america, the moral value of america as a nation of immigrants come as a country that shined a beacon of light around the world, for people like me that come here and for so many other ancestors and generations of people who come to the United States. I find when i go through that quickly i may not get the fox news host but i get emails from people watching fox news who say to me i didnt realize there wasnt a line and undocumented immigrants pay Social Security taxes so i can go and retired as a u. S. Citizen. They are paying my Social Security taxes. Host good conversation. Plus go even deeper here into the substrate of policy. I was talking about morality and politics because one of the main things in the buck is part two is about moral vision. Talk about different policy areas and i enjoyed reading it because i spent years thinking about the role of morality politics and what ive been able to figure out over time is politics without morality is a sort of insane