And with cvs face the nation coanchor of cbss morning and his current role as a 60 minute correspondent he made them one at the journalism gene his mother was a pioneer journalist and pbs first female correspondent. John will be joining conversation tonight by another esteemed authority of the presidency we are so excited to have her here in addition to covering six white house administrations and ten president ial elections and then New York Times bestselling author we can be in more capable hands also including into the chat box thank you for joining us and please tell me to welcome John Dickerson and susan page into your home. It worked. Now he managed to turn our video cameras back on. [laughter] it is such a pleasure thank you for inviting us into your home. John is at his home in new york but it such an honor to be here on the publication date of his wonderful new book. It on are such a wonderful author. Thank you because we have talked about the presidency but thats okay. I will see if i can settle down and handle it here. And try not to look at all the books on your bookshelf to understand is a wonderful place to start the book tour. So we can be together. He wont get questions just for me but others that have joined us in the audience but first lets start i cannot stop looking at the photo on the cover. It is a remarkable picture and tell us what it shows. Lyndon johnson summer 1868 and what hes doing in the picture is a real to reel tape recorder is on the table at the white house. There is a report from the governor of virginia he is a marine fighting in vietnam he is a marine fighting in vietnam getting the straight story from the general. And particularly overwhelmed by the reports but we had the tet offensive and mlk, robert kennedy. It was a time in america and write a book and also has that picture on the cover. First of all this is a historical book and obviously i write about him this is the burdens of the office and then quickly package you to the burdens and then the author of my favorite quote. What is your favorite quote of the presidency . He had a lot of great quotes you could just keep writing books about johnson because he so colorful was so much character. Sometimes its like a jackass in the hailstorm sometimes you have to take it. That is one of the central questions about the author. What about the tenant of the office and johnsons he was those are unfair and sometimes you have to sit and take it your job is to take a i think donald trump looked at some of those and then he punches those in the new on on in the nose. And that represents a change. Lets go back to the founders. To overburdened and misunderstood. Is that the job the founders thought they were describing in the constitution . As far more powerful. And if that federation wasnt much to do but he said that the job is tremendously hard but it had gotten harder but you have a job for the president who could act for National Security that basically for congress had a mammoth role in the creation of legislation and a lot of those are supposed to be with congress moved over to the presidency and to put all kinds of power inside the white house we are in a constant state of emergency were the founders need the executive now we are in a permanent state. Obviously we could get into it the president has all the power that he does that wouldve terrified them. So your book is full of historical tidbits. One of my favorites is the book that George Washington bought leaving the Constitutional Convention to go back to mount vernon what did he buy for his reading pleasure . The game of thrones at the time. The hottest thing going. He spends four months in philadelphia they nailed the window shut to keep it secret and in a particularly hot summer. Can you imagine now with the heavy clothing in a room with no air for months and there and then at the end he signs a document and advise the books and on its way back to mount vernon. It is an extraordinary thing they were doing they were so fearful of the monarchy be at creating something with an executive to hold his power and it was such a gamble. Basically washington believed in the stream. Proportionally for washington he picked her a dream. So now lets talk about this book. When did you first get the idea for this topic . [laughter] part of what we do we do a lot of reporting and writing and then how do we get a handle on this . Picc line that sets the stage wondering if i leaned a little too much on that story. Thats why said i had to think it through because because of his Vacation Home in crawford working for Time Magazine we go down to interview president bush. And we get an interview that day and we are waiting for the car and he says if you want to ask but if they are good president ask how they make decisions its only about making decisions. In that moment thinking about the job and the kids and what it is and what that means and the adequate structure that you build as to what we talk about on the campaign which tends to be all of it. Even with issues in the abstract nominee has to make decisions. That is in 2004 i wrote a series of articles in 2010. How would you do a Job Interview than three years ago i wrote a cover story did on to touch on the themes. So what that tells us is you have been thinking about this for a long time long before donald trump was elected president. Its impossible so did his presidency change any of the conclusions are the assumptions that went into your thinking of the american presidency . Yes. And the challenges central because part of that argument and what i discovered to say we have become a presidency is stagnation and not always stuck in my head Political Science history professor the founders would be terrified we turned into celebrities. And then these figures of humility. And there was a public virtue to be humble. And then the way we treat our president s as celebrities today. And has been the way donald trump who is a celebrity and to measure the office so to your question to be analyzed and then touches every part of the presidency. And helps us to decide telling the truth, responsibility, with the head of the party and ahead of good government. Everything at one every time i come to something i wrestle with donald trump if it is worth telling his story to eliminate that or as a way to allude his presidency and out the office itself. Heres a question i struggled with myself. Donald trump had challenges just like you said. Does the presidency fundamentally change. Thats a great question. Things that changed beforehand with him coming into the office. One of the questions that i wrestle with is how many times have you heard Ronald Reagan and tip oneil got together to solve Social Security. You hear it all the time. And with these two towering people, two towering representatives of government to get together with a bipartisan fashion working together to keep Social Security around for a much longer time. That is all true but the structure in which that took place there were a lot of conservative democrats working with reagan because it helps them to get reelected in their district. When he won in 1980 with 144 democrats who won their district that reagan carried. So they knew they had voters in their district to really liked Ronald Reagan. Trump one and 14 democratic districts. And those democrats are not working with trump so much of the structure of congress to have incentive to work with the opposite party, you will not have a fairytale story working together. That has nothing to do with donald trump. He was elected because without even sounding that conciliatory tapes. How much does donald trump have to do with any of that . Sorry wanted to make sure i didnt lose you. The nsa has control of my computer. So you could imagine all kinds of executive behavior done in the name we have to fix everything. Just the same power grab trampling on the prerogative of congress to set the founders into a tailspin in terms of overstepping the powers of the office. Essentially to their and. And the Democratic Candidates to use those tools that have been shown is that can be used. And finally it just depends on congress becoming a different kind of body if the presidency will turn into something else. We have some Great Questions and people who are joining us rebecca asks largely successful in his time in the modern presidency. His voice was very high. And he was a jumpy fellow. And then to come across that to hot. And then to say wait on that presidency that was before. So with his personal behavior. No reflection on him. But it has been dictated so much. But that was much different but he still operates in the system. That in the donald trump poll but he took on his own party. And that has to be him as well. And try to make the appeal to the republican if they wouldnt have in 1912 they might not have it today. I dont know about Theodore Roosevelt but he seemed like a trump type figure. To get shot so thats a great question. You have expressed of the campaign is reflective of the demands of the office moderating a debate later this year heidi make it more useful . Thats a great question. What can journalists do . You write at length the job search does not match the job. So how can journalists or reporters frame the debate when the National Number . What they do to make the system work better . Is something about a great deal about and its not easy. And happens in a narrow wave. I was surprised the president s teambuilding putting together an organization. The job is so big you have to have a good team around you and manage the emergency. How do you get that . If you ask questions about management and teambuilding people will say what why is he asking about that . And then the actual candidate has to answer the question. We get a lot of responses and for their theory for leadership and management. So which can you illuminate something . But then to in their answer tell you something in the bedrock of their views. And then to go back to their bedrock views. I think i would try to form those questions around those attributes. But i can tell you it is so hard to get candidates to answer the question. And you dont have all days you cant place to the clock to chase them to get them to answer the question. Its very hard. We need a concerted effort throughout the campaign rather than just during the debate. But there are some things about the media and you talk about things you have criticize criticized. One of them you spend too much time looking for hypocrisy in candidates. Talk about that. I dont just want to throw it out the window but a couple of things happened and trump has added some particular challenges and some of the best president s were really good liars if we have to fragile of you we spend this time and not to give us a realistic picture not only of the office but the people in the office. Dont get me wrong. We know telling the truth is important but what is important . Or hiding a true motivation . Thats one thing. With the very notion of truth undermines the office of democracy in its place in the world. And that there is a continuum. I think we should said it at two or three but not someone working off of attend. But the hypocrisy to be easily understood. It gets people riled up. So when i thought about the opportunity. And also the opportunity cost. So just tried to think of the tradeoffs and worth spending the time on if there is other kinds of stories you should be thinking about nice think why wasnt i smarter why did i see this . Covering campaigns is a humbling experience. In your book you list 17 key president ial attributes. And that you list them in alphabetical order from adaptability to vision. What president do you think has the attributes best suited for the job . And also the job that they encountered because thats the tricky thing. That list 17 attributes we know there were 17 when im trying to do one of the things i think has been a challenge is on the one hand we need a political instinct. Its the continuum empowers what you use an office to get stuff done. Are they only political . But if they show a political skill that can be reason to vote for them. Who is good . And say fdr. I want to give people a sense of how to make their own determinations. At some point i was happy about that. Is there any president or any particular attribute . The idea that fdr has a firstclass temperament. But that went a long way with the uncertainty of the job and with that crazy presidency he inherited. If yes 17 attributes that has more weight than the others. And president bush was restrained in office which i write about find it fascinating to have such skillful restraint in office but his campaign was considered the most with a successful attack. Is restraint i thought nobody has all 17. What are you hiring them to do cracks you make the point you hire them to do something neither you nor they know they will have to do. When you talk about recommendations black swan . What does that mean cracks make a conversation i had with Condoleezza Rice with almost every interview to start by saying if we look at the presidency or the campaign is a Job Interview what would you want to know from any candidate . And doctor rice said what they thought the black swan would be there presidency and how they solve it. With cyberwarfare and cyberattacks this was finished before covid19 was on the radar screen and this is the next big surprise we would face would be from a cyberattack. So the idea behind that question but the problem is with one particular candidate and they just dont answer the know its too dangerous so they are willing to give an answer that doesnt hurt anybody. George w. Bush in 2000 woodward terrorism only came out once. No Major Organization pulled about it. Woodrow wilson when elected said when it be funny if i had to concern myself with fund on Foreign Affairs because i spent so much time talking about Domestic Affairs . He had to wrestle with world war i. Everybody has a big surprise and thats a black swan. What he would understand the job if you can act in a moment of crisis. Cannot ideological purity. Heres a question do you think its possible for congress to assert itself in this era president ial obsession . Talking he want to make it a more manageable job Congress Needs to step up. Is that possible . I dont see how it happened. You hear this all the time im sure. Senators of both parties say i just want to vote. That they dont take votes in the future is tied to the president of their party. Even in the off year election. They say its a referendum of that in office. They always money from the same Interest Groups. And those who had very different interest. And now its from the state Interest Groups that makes the candidates a lot more like the candidates are a lot more like and they are tied to the presidency so Congress Needs cyberpub on the president to do well because her fortune is tied to him so they are unlikely to push back in a way to diminish his political standing. Because races are dominated by primaries he will hurt them with those who are the most parties of he has strong ties to those who participate in primaries then you heard the president now you have a primary challenge. Are now you have to raise these dollars defend of the challenge. You have to be very careful. Was the primary date has expire expired. Reflect on how the on l. A. Have harnessed how it has harnessed is there are seven ways in the Crisis Campaign with the prize a lot of americans. Yes. Although some of that with embedded reporters but he to questions he was accessible in a way Hillary Clinton was not. And as the enemy of the people at the full story. The press always puts on tv as because they were not anxious to be interviewed. In a Perfect World they are accessible all the time. And one thing is true with donald trump and the campaign, interviewed him 19 times. We had some very contentious interviews. I saw him kick you out of the oval office. Yes. Thats what happened he would get very angry but then he would come back and then radio change the way theres these acceptance speeches a Political Convention and those that are shorter and less substantive. So obviously it is a fundamental understanding. And now something almost entirely which he felt his job was to explain thoroughly everything going on. People like to have things explained even if the explanation is not great or things will be bad for a little while. And fdr found that. Kennedys article in tv guide where he said television will become the new thing and basically trying to spin everybody before his campaign on the special talent for the inside truth about a candidate. So you are learning something about his ability. So kennedy begins a huge change in politics and then uses talk shows a new way as before. And then obama uses the internet very very well for the fundraising piece as well as the current outreach piece. Twitter because donald trump has not been able to use the persuasive power of twitter at all for any program he promotes whether dismantling of obama care, building the border wall or tax cuts. And doesnt have the power of the fireside chats to control the media and throw distraction has been singular. And in the communication device but heres the question which president surprised you the most . First they start off writing a speech on knowing what they think. Then you know what the book is about that the ad but in the end and in particular about president s. As a fantastic writer to say if you write something and dont discover something along the wa way, turned your head makes you look in a different direction and that is a warning sign. By the way thats how we get into this it is the joy a of surprise and finding out if its true or not. Thats what makes working on this book such a delight. Deadlocked on the final stretches. You cant just say the door is closed. It changes the filter in the way you see the world. Eisenhower interested me and surprised me but not really because i had considered that caretaker president floa