Socialism has come into the american mainstream for the first time in our countrys history. There has been socialist candidates but they were never in the mainstream. But now come in fact at a time when many thought socialism had collapsed at the end of the 20th century now suddenly it is back with a vengeance. Will not surprise there are a lot of books that take stock of this. By a large it is an appeal to history the idea socialism has never worked before certainly for not lack of being tried. The largest countries in the world russia and china and india so the issue is it didnt work before so it will not work now. But the problem with that argument the young people dont know that history and even those that do say listen we are trying a new form of socialism come its not authoritarian its democratic. Our model is not london or mao that scandinavia we like the way people live so why not that scandinavia model . We have new types of socialism. It isnt just grievances and gender grievances and transgender in other words the left is putting forward a new socialism insisting this time it actually can and will work. What it is we talk about what socialism are you talking about . It is an economic with the means of production that form is not very common today so what is it that you mean when you say socialism . The new socialism, i would call it classic socialism that has evolved the last century and a half. It meant voluntary communities of people who come together on their own, share possessions , a freelove component but not involved. But then to come along and propose a system which is the proletariat of the working class working through the capitalist class and take over take over the means of production and the whole community. That prediction has never come true. Even marks to this day anywhere in the world theres never been that kind of revolt ever. Late 20th century it meant nationalization. I grew up in india the government took over the banks and the airlines controlled the farming industry. So in practice that meant ownership of major industries. The left is it interested the new socialism has an economic component and component like the Green New Deal you can see the czar embrace by the Democratic Party but also a cultural component. Its not a union guy demanding higher wages but an eco feminist who marches with black lives matter and throws cement blocks of her political opponen opponent. Thats not the character marks could have foreseen and then dealing with an interesting hybrid of cultural and economic issues. Many care more about abortion than the minimum wage and the transgender bathroom than universal basic income. There is a cultural component that overtakes the economic component. At one point you define the types hardcore cause i and socialist light may be like a bud light heavy what do you mean what falls into those categorie categories . Biden against Bernie Sanders he sounds like an old time socialist he braved the bread lines. Now this is a bit too much i dont think this is a socialism you can sell in the United States. So i called out socialism light. So biden for example opposed free college but now he is for it. Why . Because the poll is to the left. A good way to think about socialism now not as defined but on one end of the spectrum and socialism on the other. Which democrat pulls in the free market direction which pulls in the socialist direction and they are all socialist pulling that direction had just is that they pull hard or soft so that its more marketable than bernies thats why they take biden over bernie. So talk about this as a spectrum with a narrow version and to nationalize production in varying degrees with the soviet union with a complete nationalization and still overwhelming and on that end of the spectrum the look at some of thes policies. One of them is singlepayer healthcare or nationalized healthcare. That fits into the traditional definition of socialism. It does. And of course there are welfare states in europe with National Control of healthcare. You cant debate these without being honest and knowing what you are talking about. Listening to people like Elizabeth Warren and medicare for all singlepayer healthcare they use the rhetoric that has to be unpacked we want to take healthcare away from the Greedy Pharmaceutical Companies turning it over to the people we want the people to be in control of their healthcare the way it is administered. What role will the people have in any of this . Look at the post office. What control do we have . Nine. What control the dmv . Nine. What does the ordinary british guy have none. So the people wont be running anything Elizabeth Warren is the right away we realize it offers something to the socialist class proposing it. Not just the pharmaceutical companies that the politicians who have a great deal of power to gain and that converts into money. Socialist in america get very rich and the people can parlay their position obama and clinton and al gore how do they go from zero to 100 million . By cashing in on their public position. Thats the first point i want to make is that people are not in charge. In fact you will run healthcare the Insurance Industry or the Political Class . You are on point that they end up benefiting and some are more equal than others so what you would to treat everyone more equally with universal basic income we will guarantee a minimum so they can be free from the oppression of want how do you respond . This is where we have seen a little bit of a preview a nasty preview of socialism on the coronavirus we have some form of universal basic income and for the left they almost went to say he had been sitting on your couch for months how do you like to keep doing it . Why you want to shave and go to work and listen to your employer . He will give you 2000 a month and make you a permanent so now there is a little bit of human nature that says thats fantastic because he wants to get off the couch. This appeals to all of us. Ultimately appoints to the type of socialism by the way parks would have been disgusted marks admired the workers sweating and putting in the long day in pointed your putting too much of the load some time his back will break he will have enough. Hes dripping with sweat the workers of the world unite not the freeloaders of the world. They seem to prefer that we dont work aoc made a video we are not going back to work. Dont tell us to go back. We will try to make a temporary condition permanent the same shortages of limits on purchases things that i am familiar with in india under coronavirus we have a temporary case of what socialism would feel like on a permanent basis also the attack on Civil Liberties thats a key part also no religious liberty no freedom of assembly or speec speech. When you pay people not to work you dont get production weve seen that in the recent months. That doesnt fit with traditional marxist edict but i dont see College Students free college for everyone and or forgiveness is part of the package. I was watching 60 minutes his name is joe babinski and he says i would be such a better doctor if i didnt have to worry about paying for medical school. Would be so great if the education was rijeka put all money education to be an on a doctor and waiting for her to ask if you want other people to pay for education once you become a doctor are you willing to work for free . Obviously not. He wants the bmw lifestyle with the pool in the backyard and a big house but heres my point he wants a privileges to be a doctor but he wants a foreman to pay for his education. The shamelessness is a little shocking and again i think marx would have any sympathy to consider him part of the bourgeoisie when the workingclass became angry enough. But they are less likely to be of the union then add a trump rally. The workingclass to become while the prosperous one prosperous and then to change their constituencies. But on the face it has those underneath was at the Green New Deal . A number of remedies have nothing to do with Climate Change and politicians dont know or care if the are it is getting harder or colder thats exactly the same as when they were kids. Ultimately it is a pretext and a bruise. Why at all . A moment ago you said the workingclass will not deliver what the socialist want. And economist 100 years ago raise the question why has socialism not become mainstream in america . Alls that come on roast beef and apple pie the working guy wants to join the capitalist class not violently fling it to the ground. The left figure this out. We need to have it with new ways to get to socialism without the revolt that marx predicted would never happen. Fdr learned in the new deal that fear is a great way to get things done you cannot do otherwise. Really since then, since the seventies when i came to america i have heard this. In the seventies they were running out of food. In the eighties, Nuclear Apocalypse the ozone was dissipating the last 20 years Climate Change the oceans are raising the penguins are coughing and then now coronavirus in every case the ideas you create panic to get people in the crowd mentality what they would not do enacted in that common deliberative manner now thats the strategy of Climate Change. You also identify this. In the thirties how america began the transition to socialism can you elaborate on that quick. To elements that are not that well known. One is fdr favored 100 percent tax rate. He thought if you make over a certain amount the government should take everything. At one point he even said why should any american make over 25000 a year . In his time he did not mean it to us but the statement itself is revealing he wanted a limit on what americans could earn. Also he introduced the politics of demonizing the rich which has been critical to the politics of the american left this is worth noting because its not necessarily a characteristic of a socialist country. Look at scandinavia he will never see people demonizing that guy running no kia or ericsson. Hes a bad guy. We will make him pay the Bernie Sanders indignation this is absent from socialism. We try to find the scandinavian model. Know you follow the fdr model the politics the dividing the facility i call it unification socialism we are all in this together contrasted with division socialism critical of the politics of the left look at the racial divide because its part of the socialist strategy. A couple years ago while researching while we travel the world we finished up going to the big socialist conference and talk to young people there basically no be nobody in our age range so we went there to understand what do they mean by socialism . What are they talking about . I didnt hear much about nationalizing that black lives matter, immigration issues, climate issues, gender issues as you go across the spectrum. None of those are traditional abortion is what they chanted i dont remember seeing that in marks anywhere. I was a little surprised by that maybe we have some differences possibly have some issues but the solutions that you identify this as identities socialism could you elaborate whats going on . This is a signal contribution of my book i identify to try to diagnose a new type of identities socialism which is the marriage of classic socialism and identity politics. Think of it essentially a strategy of marxist division between the rich and poor. Its a class divide for the modern american socialist left it is that but not just that the race divide black against white male versus female Sexual Orientation divide transgender and in immigration divide legal against illegal so trying to carve up society one tries to slice American Society across many different lines. Why do they do this . They think if we divide society in these a different ways, we can assemble of these aggrieved Victim Groups to come to gather and take on everybody else. Getting to the 51 percent with the firm belief that democracy itself will legitimize them looting and oppressing the other 49 percent this is what they call democratic socialism its not a whole lot of difference if i want to score ten marbles in my pocket if he jumps me and takes my marbles the other nine jump me which is the majority either way im being robbed. What is it with the banners socialism these individual issues what is it that banner that pulls it together. I think they are unified by a hatred of capitalism but more broadly what could be called the infrastructure of western society to make it flourish within it. Is not just the market or the insurance companies, they also hate the family. They hate the idea of a judeochristian structure of morality. They hate the idea of these churches which are a vehicle for people to express freedom of conscience if they had their way family and property and the church in a say all socialist target these three institutions and they do it right away. I was certainly true in the former soviet union. It was striking to me that even though we have advocates of democratic socialism how quickly they had become tyrannical and so you cannot go over here we will have drones monitoring your movement were happy to shut the church is down. Nobody is denying a coronavirus but the truth is there is a First Amendment and nothing in the constitution that says unless there is a disease or Health Authority say otherwise but these basic constitutional liberties is not from a democratic referendum doesnt matter if the majority opposes them i have a right to say what i think i have freedom of conscience. Its one thing even if you debated it with psalm agony on balance that no the governor of new jersey says he was even thinking about the constitution. It didnt cross his mind. Obviously the book was entirely written before the pandemic. What you see here around the world and at the state level the crackdown on authoritarian Government Policies how does that make you feel different with the progress of socialism. I have to say that the book has been vindicated not only by coronavirus but the aftermath of the George Floyd Killing. If i said it envisioned defunding the police to disband the police force i would consider that an extreme thing to say. I wouldnt have dared to say that but yet i hear that. So to the riots, we see the attempt to have a social conformity almost anything foreseen in orwell with that reflection white people kissing the theater black lives matter activist not just confederate statues Abraham Lincoln and the unknown soldier, the shows you whats going on. Its not george floyd there is a specific injustice and the truth is there is a unified outrage from the left and right me included whenever surface. And opportunity for National Unity it cant work like that so immediately they took up the killing with a much larger narrative than normal narrative is the bad copper cops is try to make more good cops that their view is no cops because they are based on dash racist because the Free Market Society is allied with White Supremacy and america itself is structurally racist but you have a remarkable and gigantic narrative hooked onto the George Floyd Killing because if you disagree with the narrative you are accused of being insensitive to george floyd. This is a strategy that they force you to embrace the larger narrative even a are more than willing to go with them on the original injustice you just not willing to sign on to other stuff. I dont want to go too far but with the theme of socialism in the book a little bit to similarly recognize the injustice the free market capitalism tends to minimize because those that discriminate pay the consequence. But theyre protesting is largely government run. For freemarket capitalist to talk about competition for those issues that are of legitimate concern to people . There is an opportunity there i have been struck in my lifetime to see services that i check for granted our government monopolies like the post office. Have now found competitors like ups or federal express. So i agree and on the other hand the reason we have a government i and social contract not just according to block is we need protection, we need to be good and he favored leviathan if the state doesnt do that and give you the protection basically all bets are off. You owe no more allegiance to the state and have every right to overthrow, dont need to pay your taxes. You are basically back in the state so i want to emphasize the radicalism of what the left is putting on here. The funding the police means to me to solve social contract. Strike ts try to bring thisk into the book now thinking about the identity politics and divisiveness i think it was Something Like venezuela that this is all headed. Talking of the scandinavian model until i read your book i didnt know that he never had visited their. Telling. But you know, people bring up, anupcome and ive done this befe in my own writing that the countries are not very socialist. They have big welfare states with high taxes for lots of people and as an economist i think theres problems with that and theres a reason the growth isnt as much as it could be but that isnt socialist. I have sympathy for that in the buck bubook but you also had a different point and said whether it is or not its basically not attainable in the United States. Why not . The american socialism is based on a simple idea outlined by george vernon. Anyone that robs peter to pay paul can count on pauls aboard. In this country the left tried to say to people listen, we can offer you this and that and the good news is that is truly free. Colleges and free, unique buildings and professors and technologies, hospitals are not free, you have to pay doctors. What they mean by free is the good news for you is we are going to make somebody else pay. That is the key to american socialism. It would collapse without it. If you told Bernie Sanders