I wont president ial history because the presidency is especially built around who everybody pressured into it. Its important that everyone understand him and the presidency. But i think the biographies are alienating in the ways that the visual presentations and the way that they are written. So i really wanted the reader to feel as if they had never read a president ial biography. That they had everything they needed the beginning of the book to feel as though they were the experts. So that was part of it. I really did think think a lott my reader and the other part was thought washington has been called by president ial editors to edit the paper called him an vanilla wants to my face. [laughter] they are too much fun. Thats why the fighters survived. But the thing is he is, you can break him out and it can be interesting but you have to have fun with him. I think that its a whole different thing. But a lot of it is the way that i organize the material in my head when i was trying to make sure i got things across and then i just tried to be vulnerable and share it with everyone. I do think that there are certain things that help you understand. I can tell you in a sentence for instant we can say he lost more battles than he one so why are we talking about the battles when hes not fighting on the frontlines. I want you to be excited about it and talk about add a cocktail party. And she said you know that washington loves dogs . [laughter] and i did not know that. So we talked about that. To your point. And that he loves dogs you have to know to call the dog sweet. You need that. It is ridiculous. You also need details you cant just know how many people that he owned and he felt a certain way you need to know that he assaulted his slaves you can just hear that you need an example of that. So every detail i can find. So you told me earlier that because this book does so much to demystify washington in the context of relationships using the model for the presidency it also demystifies the presidency and theres a way to make the traditional biographies it is roman emperors and certainly the president is just a dude that we chose. Its interesting how throughout the book are always sure to emphasize not just the people around them but washington is an uncertain person to have goals but also what i had in my mind is danny glover that i am too old for this shipped shit i dont want to do it anymore. [laughter] we think of them as a monolith with all the details. Thats just not true. And annotating the constitution. I found that so revealing. Just to get into his head how he understood himself doing the jo job. And him in the office and it should give us comfort in the messiness in some ways. A big part of the book you cannot deal with that. And hes always concerned about what he will do on the farm and other people that he owned and what they would do. So what you talk about towards the and is how washington troops would always say yes i will free my slaves at some point but talk about his ambivalence and unwillingness to take the extra step. And then it appears in virginia someone who did take the extra step. I feel this is something biographers try to pull over on us. They make it sound i think its hard to revere someone because i think they do, there is a bias. If you cannot see him without a beautiful realization. To washington doesnt have a change of heart but a change of priorities during the revolutio revolution. The argument is sometimes enslaved and the free black man fought during the revolution. He didnt want that he was very reluctant about it his righthand man does always presented to the narrative because he is always been there and was representative of everyone rather than the exception. So what i wanted to do because it is present in his mind it is as important as anything else riding home to mount vernon what is he concerned about . So for me, to be honest with his anxiety and priorities priorities it has to be full time. And want to smash a bunch of micro histories into one biography but the thing is washington is it i wish you would have done this but understanding why he ultimately did the thing that he did. He could have pulled his land we called them planters which is misleading they are a plantation owner which is a forced labor camp because he gained when he fought for the british. And they had just given him the permission that they wanted. And so that is important to think about it saying thats not quite true. I cant do this. If you wanted to be the person who that he could have. People say he had no examples there were people in virginia because other slave masters were terrified of this. But then also to talk about it is a big move from my side. He passed the buck to her and left her in a vulnerable position. She ended up doing the inevitable for what she didnt want to see and be responsible for separating families forever. How many people were enslaved in mount vernon . It fluctuated. Martha was married before and to children from a previous marriage. The estate had over 130. Washington inherited when he was 11. And then it was sold to him. And then that number swelled 215 by the time he died. With washington as a slaveholder it when i talk about it in those terms most of the time to the people that he enslaved and that radically change how you think about these men. And how they must have thought about themselves. It wasnt a salon every day. Sign up through sundown most days thinking at some point during the day when you have the discipline. I dont know if i have a question. I think there is something worthwhile just thinking about it and washington always has he was so impressive speech but to maximize profit and labor to make sure he was applying that. And then to do important work all the time they were messy and drama queens and they thought themselves to be better. On a sunday washington would make enslaved people row boats and race across the potomac. Thats on a sunday. I want to know if you went to church but also he did that. John adams a disciple of the enlightenment is much different at the heart of the movement to unmask superstitions and to call to pay on cultivate independence of thought. John adams held the desire for fame to be found in every heart. And then to worship the riches. This has been identified the danger of the cult of personality. The cult of personality is when it is equated with the nation so we the people as the soul of the body politics. Looking up close and personal first in france than franklin seduced the educated elite. To understand the desire among human beings he was in unforced spectator ship than it was the opposite the fear of obscurity and insignificance. And for andy warhol Everyone Wants 15 minutes of fame he places the danger of that elation at the center of his constitutional fears. Often the most superficial he explained riches and beauty and societies invariably invariably invited into classes they use the same method in marketing candidates and a prominent nam name, a glamorous reputation and if that wasnt enough flattery and quackery we keep supporters mesmerized. To understand to go as far back as 1790. Those impulses emerge in all government republicans one republics and democracies alike to reward ambition cannot avert the mad scramble for public recognition. But he went further. Group psychology of the illustrious view. Since they would never take the stage to live vicariously through their idols. By curious is his word that they have a special kind of sympathy for the powerful not just corrupt politicians on inflated reputations we document these things in our book. They are not selectively drawn so they resonate with the current political scene which a lot of people think and forget we started researching this book long before the current political scene. [laughter] americans tell themselves a value independent thinking and in the light and sense of that phrase. But citizens still swoon over the rich and famous. And then to extrapolate from this. That mob mentality is a dangerous force. Contained within democracies. And Party Organizers from Alexander Hamilton forward to find a way to exploit imaginary bonds and their leaders. In the first president ial election in 1788, 89, hamilton made sure that they withhold their vote for adams but new englanders might steal the election from washington. From hamiltons perspectiv perspective, there can only be one star and one king. And with the trappings of loyalty and was housed in a grand mentioned. To make two grand National Tours the king of england his birthday was a national holiday. Visiting dignitary said the treasured portraits of washington much like they were shipped icons of the state. Looking at the cult of washington to use a satirical skill. And the most important trait was to emphasize his handsome face. Next his tall stature. Six with 3 inches. It was evident in his elegant forming graceful movements and largest state. And a man of few words it was joked they adored him because geese are all swans. We know it to be true voters take manufactured qualities in a character. Adams of course by comparison to washington acquired the nasty nickname of his rotunda the. [laughter] and in the election of 1800. The political gamesmanship by the time the second adams in the president ial contest when then secretary of state John Quincy Adams was seeking the presidenc presidency, a cartoon capture the socalled foot race that to this day that this is relevant because tonight is the kentucky derby. [laughter] in the cartoon John Quincy Adams and justin the military uniform coming up fast. And then to stand at the front of a crowd cheering on his son while spectators place wagers on the avatar. This is democracy at its worst. Election campaign is an about philosophy or policy the excitement is what matters most. In 1828 and not only running against our natural hero but a far better organized Jackson Party machine. And then jacksons electionyear guru building on hamiltons playbook and then to mold him into the air of the noble washington. To be imperious and impulsive and blustering and autocratic. With a lavish campaign biography. His arbitrary behavior as a cardinal virtue. And then the incumbent adams was overly cerebral. John quincy adams concluded that johnsons followers of seek we as champions of executive power. And that was a worrier cult of conduct democracy was a smokescreen western expansion drove politics slaveholders would expand to the pacific. It was a union of land speculators and southern slaveholders. John quincy adams elected to congress 1830 after the one term presidency ended. It was an unusual move never to be repeated. Remained in the house until his death in 1848. Parties ruled. It was quite design military was sanctimonious calls with southern democrats to purchase auxiliary support from the men of the north. Jackson, head of the Democratic Party jefferson Small Government Party now with executive power. And John Quincy Adams as a princely air comfortable with titles and rituals and long serve as a diplomat. Somehow like his father before him with a secret promoter of monarchy. The cult of personality and often voters didnt care. But a slaveholding oligarchy took hold of the presidency along with the illusion of what textbooks call jacksonian democracy. He was the architect of the constitution, the architect of the bill of rights, he was crucial to the establishment of the government under the constitution. He was president during the first war under the constitution. And did magnificent or at least very well. At the end of his presidency john adams who is a sour figure and not into making compliments easily he wrote James Madison administration covered itself and more glory than any predecessor. Which is a great complement because his predecessor was washington and jefferson and adams himself. [laughter] i do think he has been underappreciated. I know five years of labor doesnt sound like fun but discovering things and being able to put into a form that i hoped would reach a wide audience. The book is called reconsidering James Madisons life. What was the most important contribution. It would have to be the constitution. I think he was a genius. Because he was the kind of genius he had he could break through conventional thinking. And everybody thinks he did that in the case of the staff of the Great Republicans which we switch what we are. Conventional wisdom is to have a Great Republic of people voting for representatives for themselves. And that it would be too loose and to fall apart monarch a call power. Madison thought that was not true. And that the danger in the republic is that one faction will dominate and oppress everyone else. Madisons geniuses to see that if you have many factions as there would be in a larger public, the no single one could become oppressive. And that was the rationale for the constitution produced in philadelphia. What nobody else believed time and again to transform the world by doing it. Talk about like George Washington. Sometimes we think the founders are sitting around having a polite conversation. But its much more interesting to realize, the people and then defy to make it succeed. In the beginning jefferson was the first chief lieutenant. When the constitution began and the aid produced a 72 page disaster. And so then he asked please come to mount vernon. He will and then the leaders of the congress wrote congresses response to madison. [laughter] he wrote the Congress Response why should reply back. [laughter] it is just hard to imagine how his voice would echo off of every wall. Now that there hasnt been another time in history where one man has been so influential at the beginning of the administration the way madison was the beginning of washington. Talk about the Constitutional Convention. There were battles and it took a long time many hours and days of work to put it together. It was the same that we all learned in the same history books. Of course the big states wanted to be represented proportionate according to population the small state wanted different. Madison always out there should be proportional representation across the board. He went to the Constitutional Convention thinking the great threat to the public were the states because they were so irresponsible under the confederation, repressing religious freedom but now to churn out money and then this is what rhode island did is that made it necessary for merchants to accept that depreciated money for debt incurred. So then you get the penny on the dollar and estates were taxing one another and oppressing one another and conducting their own Foreign Policy. So madison thought the states needed to be controlled. When it turns out the compromise do not be proportionately in the senate. It took him a couple of days to get around to accepting that. And making them believe he needs a Vice President. [laughter] that is still the question. Isnt it . [laughter] it had to do with the electoral college. And that the congress choose the president just think how different they would have been . He would not have gotten Ronald Reagan you would have plenty of speakers at the house to be come president. Secf votes would then become Vice President. And that seemed like a pretty good idea. But then they started worrying what is it going to do. [laughter] its so interesting to see how this thing has built up. They decided he needed a job and they would make him president of the senate. By the end of the Constitutional Convention, there were two delegates that were so worried about the Vice President , the creature of the executive branch being president of the senate, part of the legislative branch, about his violating the separation of powers two delegates and randolph of virginia, two delegates, sorry, and george mason of virginia specifically cited the vice presidency as reasons they wouldnt sign the constitution. During the course of his career in terms of implementing the constitution would be the best way to describe it, Alexander Hamilton became an important player in all that. Can you talk about what it was that led to their major disagreements and confrontation . Its important to understand he and hamilton were not buddies but they were friendly colleagues. They wrote the federalist papers together a bi day doesnt seem impossible, but the papers writing philosophy and politics and writing and effort to convince people to support the constitution as the speed they were putting the beginning parts into it often before they were finished. So, that madison and hamilton who respected one another until hamilton became secretary of the treasury under George Washington and began to make his financial plans clear. Madison was troubled from the beginning, but eventually particularly when the issue of establishment of a National Bank came up, he was deeply concerned. He didnt think the bank was a bad idea. But at the Constitutional Convention he said it was such a good idea that at the Constitutional Convention he had proposed giving the congress the power to grant charters which is what you need it if you wanted to establish a bank. However it turned that opportunity down. Congress didnt have that power and if tha that was madisons p. Hamilton was simply running roughshod over this strict member of Powers Congress had been given. There was no power to grant charters and therefore, madison thought you shouldnt establish a bank. He lost the fight, but he went on to kind of thing before i guess you could say. He established the first oppositional political party. And parties didnt have any better reputation than they do now. Civic and this is counterintuitive. If said the parties were divisive and noisy. Madison said yes we do. A government without opposition is a little more than a monarchy. So, he organized the first party in order to change the way hamilton was trying to carry the government. He managed to get jefferson elected in 1800 he was a small government guy. We have our two nominees