We really hope you purchase masha gessen book tonight from our website you can get there by clicking on the button and we are very excited they had signing plates he will get bookplate in the copy of the book. I dont need to tell you this. All Retail Businesses ares doing our best to stay above water to bring you the programs you are accustomed to getting a politics and prose. This is rough times if you are so inclined there is a donate button at the bottom of the page and we would be so eternally grateful for anything you can spare to help us out. Every penny counts and thank you so much for your willingness to be generous in that way. The other thing to mention the question button at the bottom of your screen. Click on the button and also look at others have asked if you want to have that answered i know they will try very hard to get to as many as possible we do have a firm cut off time so we need to make sure masha gessen can go you can hear from her in a moment. She has appeared at politics and prose a number of times we are always delighted to have them at the store and online for many reasons but i dont think the time we need them more at this truly terrifying moment in American History her latest book is called surviving autocracy written just as were finished just as coronavirus was hitting but she could not only go back and rework quite a bit of the book i know that was a near Impossible Task but she pulled it off so tonight you can hear her most up to date ideas many are already in the book as well. Having masha gessen talk about the subject the best way to think about it is what the New York Times book reviewer said a few days ago which was when it comes to autocracy listen to masha gessen and thats the way we feel about this new book. We are really looking forward to the conversation i will tell you a little bit about her background having grown up in the soviet union before emigrating as a teenager, she went back to russia to report on the rise of Vladimir Putin and then moved to new york permanently in 2013 obviously targeted by putin being here and a contributor to the new yorker has been ten previous books. Has won more awards for journalism including the National Book award and continues to be an extraordinarily important voice explaining to us how fascism takes root what it looks like and feels like and how to prepare for that and prevent it. We are incredibly fortunate to have dahlia with us tonight Senior Editor at slate where she writes two columns. And she also has a podcast that is biweekly and host that and has also written books and has won awards for commentary journalism which was wonderful examination of why the protest of the post week are relevant and from different from the past few years. Anyway we are so happy to have these two incredible mines and speakers with such humanity and compassion to help guide us through this moment so please join me to welcome masha gessen. Thank you. Thank you so much. Hi. This is the treat. I have known her for years before we met in person i felt like i could hear you writing in my ear buds all the time i felt your voice was the voice in my head and then after 2016 the day after the election yes. Everything that you said that has been in my head and the book is fantastic. Congratulations. I may be in your head and imagination but you are in my head every week for the pop podcast. It is very illuminating on the Supreme Court and alarm are generally. Thank you. I want to start by asking you writing to this idea and i know that you massively updated the book for the era but i thank you had to update in the last week for the protest era so could we start to feel like it is happening and you arent seeing that that since they have taken to the street to militarized policing and that resistance does that make you feel that slow normalization that you are so afraid of might have been arrested the last week or two . I now. No. I think the protest are amazing and we have written about them beautifully. But the rhetorical reaction it makes me think things are really horrible. And one is the mayors of minneapolis and new york to politicians not only democrats but known as progressive democrats far left of the Democratic Party immediately went to that agitator approach. The reason why that is so dangerous, it is this idea thats very strong in American Political Culture where we see outsiders that they have a right to be in certain places to have a right to act politically in the place you are currently located that is the insane idea. To act politically where you are and the fact that you can deny people their rights before even and talking about if you agree they are acting politically but then to cut it off at the sourc source. The other is just actual policing. And the flaunting of Public Health guidelines. And the gratuitous curfews. Its now a matter of degree and the president of the country performing fascism they disagree that they think of military response and then of what terrifies me of course which marks it for those who dont know writing an oped that the New York Times decision to publish this market as legitimate conversation so things that are not part of legitimate conversation for example the essay that gave birth to this book at the time of contributing opinion writers at the New York Times it was not part of the legitimate covid sit on conversation and stanley just reported to talk about how nationalism works trying to submit our beds and they are seen as marginal to the conversation with this idea military response to protest to be mainstream in the conversation. I am glad you are talking about language and its true the word fascism comparison to not see some even authoritarian tyranny all of those that have force and meaning they are not meant to use but at the same time fanciful silly words have come to be in common that makes no sense. So to worry about me talking about that in the book is that he stubble is one destabilization of going from breitbart two things that donald trump doesnt like on cnn. Obviously this such a concern for me is a legal writer because words have no reading on meaning that law has no meaning one of the things ive been trying to understand how you attach meaning to president as a separator with his language even the last few weeks, masha the notion of opening the cities we all grasp that is if that means something because donald trump used to and i remember four weeks it doesnt mean what you think it means and means what trump wants it to mean and its even more pernicious the last couple of days and just getting around to mean emphatically not looters means protesters and is that a way in which we cannot use words like fascism or tyranny thats two loaded for Mainstream Media but we can happily appropriate and use these words that mean nothing we are very comfortable with that. I dont know if that is the ease with which we talk about antifa the last couple weeks and what donald trump thinks that means i know where it turns worse when it turns into the opposite but we are in a rule of law crisis and we are appropriating all of his language. He has been incredibly talented at dominating the conversation. And we saw this on immigration is something to write about in the book but again the same manner degree with that determinants to become part of our mainstream language. And to be marked as extreme. And he has certain talents as a performer in the way he uses language. There is a real instinct for inverting language with relationships of power. Like the terms witchhunt were conspiracy. But that is the discourse. And then using those words to me nothing and thats a real problem for the citizens because when the president uses the words it still means something because it has consequences so we have to cover it has face value. There is no way to solve this conundrum. It feels good to be awful that maybe a little less awful if we are functional in the way we have the language. You have been saying this for three years and this is crushing for institutionalist like me who relies way too much on the course and to say again and again its almost childlike in their belief that there are guardrails and Public Education and a free press and all these things will kick into high gear but again its very distressing for us to get through this to be consistently correct. So one of the things i worry about is this childlike confidence that the election will save us. And i had a friend send me a note today that it will all work out. But i thought there is some magical thinking to extract ourselves from this book im not nearly as confident as i was six months ago there will be a free and Fair Election. And also this is now a threepart question but how will we know it wasnt a free or Fair Election if people voted . You can have a lot of elections that are not elections. I know we arent sophisticated enough to distinguish. First of all start with the institutions. Listening to your podcast and reading thats in those conditions and i remember your podcast about the travel ban the first travel ban. And the ways the mobilization of society. This is something we dont think about often or enough that institutions are not fixed in a vacuum. It is based on these enabling conditions and also that they come up with. Or that act through them. Donald trump is a bad stay after the way he treats the courts and the law and the Real Estate Developer treats city hall and regulations he treats them as an obstacle and something to get around. But the American Court system im not sure you can make a system and then continues to function. Coming up at travel bands 2. 0 in new york state Real Estate Developer to say okay this is not how the courts were designed to function. It is not relief for reliance over meaningful relationship. That doesnt take into account and then to create those conditions or fail to function. I tried to thread a needle in the book because i have a problem with the ideas that donald trump is solely an anomaly. And to have any trouble with that narrative. And to be predetermined and a quantum leap from a running start. And the electoral system has been eroding for a very long time and that has grown insignificance over the last couple of decades. When you ask if there are free and Fair Elections what are free and Fair Elections . So im just avoiding that will question altogether and so what i would rather ask can we get rid of donald trump electorally . Using the terminology of the book. So i am assuming for purposes of this discussion we are in this stage of the autocracy so november is meaningful. So what im most worried and he very clearly lay the groundwork for disregarding the results of the election. Thats what worries me. And with voter fraud and now this campaign and to be wellfunded and to be involved in our now a lot of dark many. And the vote by mail option functions pretty well in jurisdictions and the only way people will vote if there is a second wave in november . That is absolutely the devastating preemptive effort and then to discredit voting by mail particularly in cities part of what you are describing that we didnt protect the franchise. And that is i can institution of voting. And with that pandemic we all have to tend that garden. I want to remind folks in just a minute but before i will let you go one quick question and one harder question i love how you have this tendency it is a credulous tendency. And then to change the subject and also tweeting to take our attention off. I think he can play hungry hungry hippo. In make the same point about hippo in putin in the book that to be a puppet master to control everything and then to say Robert Mueller in this way. And then to be in charge of all the things. And then one of the takeaways is that nobody is in charge of all the things. Do you have a working theory for why there is this tendency and that they must be an absolute mastermind. It is too serious to contemplate. And that is by a deranged lunatic. And in the drivers seat but i had one very sad moments on november 8, 2161 was donald trump and convinced to win since july and the other with the lives of putin that the one criticism that he wears have is a portrayed putin to be an educated and basically incompetent and not very smart and you dont get to be president of russia as an idiot and then you can not continue to be president if you are an idiot. I think we like to start that we like to believe the basically believe in that we just stumbled into them . And then the most emotionally appealing clown . It is so demoralizing and awful. Before i take audience questions i want to ask you this journalistic question with some version of a talk so much and how we Pay Attention in the wrong ways and then following the tweets and i dont dispute any of that. We lived in charlottesville when the nazis marched in 2017. My 11 yearold son said heres what happens when they marched to your town if you ignore them they went. So i have time to think of that as my mantra for the entire trump era. And we dont just have the option to say the tweets are distracting. And that we would shoot at looters. And to seem to come at the very beginning and then how do you do this with that slow denigration without centering. I do think of it as a reduction. It will be awful no matter. That is a beautiful way to put it if you ignore it he wins if you Pay Attention to him he wins. And then to write about it are talking about in a particular way how much are we and then to reduce the harm in any way . And then clearly contributing so covering trump a columnist at the new yorker and to take a very clear stance on the Trump Presidency more than the near times which is a very difficult and with those losses in giving up that Foundation Like neutrality. And what they call from the view from nowhere. But when you cover trump statements or his lies in a neutral manner, example that the governors disagree which is really a step short saying theyll disagree but when you allow then you are contributing to the harm. To be located in politics. And as we have to do. And thats like getting yourself in politics. And then to make mistakes and then putting things into focus of neutral coverage doesnt. That is a good answer. Thank you that helps. And with audience questions there is a bunch. So how do you define fascism . I dont use the word fascism in the book i did use upon that i publish yesterday. And the reason fascism a definition that upholds the supremacy over others and that describes a lot of places in the world. So i try to avoid using it because trumps performance was very pointed. Its nothing else it is exactly that. That he has chosen all of the symbols of fascism. Is there blind spots about his own little contributing and his own turn to his own firm . I thought that is exactly. And then to be marginalized. So i will take the question about the Democratic Party. And he failed what he was dealing with and the Democratic Party in general of politics to resonate of what makes a good candidate and then to the president ial nominee and the intellectual appeal and we have been at this for a long time. And certainly we have known since 2008 even a hint of the vision of the future works magic and with this message of hope and that is articulate and just the possibility. That was enough. That the Democratic Party among others. And then we get somebody like trump who is the exact opposite politician that appeals to the imaginary past with peoples anxieties and fears that i will transport you back which is a kind of a picture of a white racist United States that will not change. In the Democratic Party completely misses the point of that emotional appeal. And that could resonate and thats a mistake and then to have a glorious future with his vision of the imaginary past. Do you have a sense that joe bidens speech yesterday was a version of that to put empathy and compassion for what you described . He is headed in that direction. And that is the potential in him. And as he have the imagination i really hope so. And then to interpose the views. And the other failures i accept your definition its just that the unwillingness to acknowledge and then to talk about that constitutional hardball. Go back to the norms back to write where you started with the New York Times of that unwillingness to say we want to be fair because there is virtue and going back even with those norms are part of what rightly or wrongly has dumped us. That is a myopic view to just get back to something. And the has an imaginary path before trump came along and i hope it helps that allusion a little bit but it is a fundamental misunderstanding politics is not the procedure of getting nominees through the senate. These are all instruments of politics thats how we live together in the city and state and country. But its not politics. I will read this and let you go. And then to maintain power with the entire establishment of the gop who sold their souls how will that be countered when nothing moves them like hearing about Lisa Murkowski that trump was threatening to bring the military police into the park have to think about if i could support him just that constant performance its an audience of one with brett kavanaugh. And then to use another example so at the comments he didnt know trump is going to Lafayette Square and then to be the secretary of defense. And ask what they are going. But it is that casualness of that agency and the casualness yes they perform for trump and it with these different realities and in that politicians perform any type of gratuitous the actions are addressed to the electorates. That is the audience. Its an audience of one and that is what we have seen with the Republica