George washington and why its different than other biographies of americas first president , he spoke at politics and pros store in washington, d. C. I want president ial history because the presidency and especially the person that establishes the office and built around and everyone pressure intoed it its really important that everyone understand him and the presidency but i think that the biographies are alienating in the way that their visual presentation, their titles the way that they are written, and so i really wanted the reader to feel like they had if they had never read a president ial biography that they had everything they needed at the beginning of the book and at the beginning of every section to equip them to feel as though they were the experts and so that was part of it. I really did think a lot about my reader and the other part of it was not washington has been called by an adams family editor, president ial editors, they edit the papers, called him vanilla once to my face and i think is well, first of all, adams, you cant compare, they are too much fun, thats why the letters survived. They knew that. The thing is that he is you can break him out of this mold that he can be fun, he can be interesting but you have to have fun with him as as the president is called a reverend which is a whole different thing but a lot that you see, the way i organized the material in my head when i was trying to make sure that i got things across and i decided to sort of be vulnerable and share it with everyone. I do think that there are certain things that help you understand i can tell you in a sentence, for example, at the beginning of the revolution, okay, we can say as they all do, he lost more battles than he won, so why are we talking about the battles . Hes not fighting on the front lines, hes in the tent most of the time. Hes not out there and so why are we wasting time talking about it. Why dont i just tell you about the battles, but thats less important to me that you understand than just a sentence that gets lost in a paragraph which is that the war went on for a long time, it wasnt quick, we had one general and the british had many generals and i really by presenting you with a chart at the beginning of that section and just listening to George Washington and all the other guys, you get and you take the knowledge with you and i dont want my reader longest answer ever. I dont want my reader, i dont expect you to turn around and give a really long talk about this, i want you to be really excited about it and want you to turn around and talk about it like a cocktail party. I will say that i read half a book on the train back home recently and when i was talking to my wife, i was telling alexis coes book. Did you know that George Washington loved dogs. She was like, no, i didnt know that. Its as important to know that he loved dogs. Fully formed person to you, so you have to know that he was silly enough to call his dog sweet lip and you need that, makes you imagine and you think thats ridiculous and you need details like other things, you cant just know how many enslaved people he owned and that he felt a certain way, you need to know that he assaulted his slaves, you need you cant just hear that, you need an example of it. So its really me just giving you every detail i can squeeze out of it. So you said to me earlier that my brain turning and that was because this book does so much to demystify washington and place in context of his relationships, and because hes the model for the presidency, what kind of almost does demystify the presidency and in the way in which the book unlike traditional biographies which feel they are biographies of roman emperors and this is a biography of a president , and its just a dude that we chose and its interesting that throughout the book you always are sure to emphasize to us not just the people around him but washington as an uncertain person, washington as someone who has goals and aims but also kind of the thing i had in my mind is danny glover in lethal weapons, too old for this shit and doesnt want to do it anymore. I think thats true. I think the thing is we think of the founders as one thing like thats just not true, washington was annotating the constitution writing president , he was doing the best that he could. I found that so revealing, right, getting into his head about how he understood himself doing the job. Yes. I think that that again this dehumanizes him in the office and should give us comfort in the messiness in some ways. The book deals with washington as a slaver owner, you cannot not deal with that. Business. Right. He was always concerned about what hes going to do about the farm, how hes going to feed and house other people he owned and then what they were going to do for him, so i think that you talked about towards the end is how washington sort of would always say that, yea, im going to free my slaves at some point but never really acted on it. I wonder if you can talk about his ambvilance. They make it sound as if washington had this view, i think this is helpful to them because its hard to revere someone which i think they do which is a bias. Its hard to do that if you cant see him thats having this beautiful realization and so washington begins to have not a change of heart but a change of priorities during the revolution and he meets different people, the argument is sometimes that enslaved and free black men fought during the revolution and thats what changed his mind. He didnt want that. He was reluctant about it. Just like billy lee is presented with the narrative that hes always been there and representative of everyone rather than the exception, so i wanted to do was was have that present because its present in his mind. It is as important to him as anything else. So to me to be honest and to understand him and his anxieties and priorities, it had to be there the whole time. As close as i could get it and the material is there and its like i wanted to smoosh a bunch of histories into one biography because i think it can be that way but i think the thing is, you know, washington is not i wish he would have done this, its understanding why he ultimately did the thing that he did. He could have sold his land. When we say that he was cash poor, we called them planters, forced labor camp and they were all cash poor but they had land and no one had more land than George Washington because he had gained a ton of really, really, really choice land when he fought for the british which he would have been happily to do and we might be british subjects had they just given him the promotion that we wanted. He was a reluctant rebel. We are not talking about thomas payne here. I think thats important to think about like the things that hes saying are not quite true. Hes saying, i dont have the money, i cant do this, i cant move out. He could have if he really wanted to, you know, if he wanted to be the person that lafayette thought he could have and he had examples. People like to say that he had no examples. There were people in virginia who did this who had to leave, you know, under duress because of other slave masters are terrified of this. I just think lets look at him clearly and when we also do that lets talk about how it was it was kind of a dick move for martha, you know, he left her in this really he passed the buck to her and left her in this inevitably vulnerable position and ended up, you know, hurting the inevitable but also the same problem existed that he just didnt want to see and be responsible for which was the separating of families forever. If you could refresh my memory, how many people were enslaved at mount vernon kind of throughout . It fluctuated and there were martha was married before, she had two children from her previous marriage and the estate had over 130 enslaved people and washington inherited 10 insleighed people when he was 11 and that number swelled because he purchased the other thing biographers would say an enslaved man was sold to him, its not like he was, fine, i will take him, he went to richmond with explicit purpose to buying people. The number swell today 240 people by the time he died. Most of the people that he saw for most of his life were enslaved people and i think i lived in charlottesville near monticello is right there. They talked about it in terms there, most people that jefferson most of the time are the people who he enslaved and that to me at least radically changes how you think about these men and how they must have thought about themselves because its not it wasnt a salon every day with, you know, all the founder buddies. Ben franklin. Thinking big thoughts. Right. It was from sun up to sun down most days seeing the people that you enslaved, thinking about the fact at some point during the day when you had to discipline people talk about it was impressive of the way he thought about new schemes and inventions. To maximize profit and labor to make sure he was applying that and i think thats really important because we do think of him as doing important work all of the time, they were messy, they were drama queens and they were also cruel and thought themselves to be better. Its important that we understand that on a sunday washington would hang out with his wife and make enslaved people roe boats and race across the patomic. That was alexis coe in biography of George Washington. Over the past 20 years book tv has covered over 300 programs of americas first president and you can watch them any time visiting our website at booktv. Org and searching George Washington and book. Up next a look at u. S. President s, story of nancy eisenberg, the story of John Quincy Adams. At the heart of this revolutionary movement was impulse to unmask superstition and cultivate independence of thought. John adams held that a desire for fame could be found in every heart, fame needed an audience. The ruling few needed the masses to worship their riches and their might. This is why he then identified the danger of the cult of personality. The cult of personality is when the personality of the leader is equated with the nation. The worship idle replaces we the people as the sole of body politics. Adams watched the cult close and personal. First when he was in france. There franklin seduced the educated elite as americas first rock star. Adams understood the desire among human beings to be seen and loved. He zoomed in on the forced of spectatorship and then there was the opposite, the fear of obscurity and insignificance and put at the center of theory. He explained the first riches and beauty sured up power. The societies divided people into classes. The Political Parties used the same method in marketing candidates and attractive appearance, prominent name, glamorous reputation. If that wasnt enough, flattie and quackery, delightful word would keep supporters mesmerized, john adams understood that politics was a crooked con game as far back as 1790. He is point was that these impulses emerged in all governments, republics and democracies alike. A society that rewards ambition cannot overt the mad scramble for public recognition, but he went further, Group Psychology was responsible for the sham worship of the lustrous few. Since the majority of people would never take to the stage, they lived through their idles, by careous and people felt empathy for the powerful. It wasnt just corrupt politicians, it was the voters lived for the show. We document these things in our book, they are not selectively drawn so as to simply resinate with the current political scene which a lot of people forget that we started researching long before the current political scene. Americans tell themselves, they value independent thinking in the enlightenment sense of the phrase but, in fact, citizens still swoon over the rich and famous, they join crowds as cheering fans. Adams extrapolated from this to say that mob mentality is a dangerous force contained within democracy and its often enflamed by the partisan press. Party organizers from Alexander Hamilton forward have found a way to exploit the imaginary bond between voters and their leaders. In the first president ial election in 178889 him elton made sure that southern electors withheld votes for adams by splitting the rumor that new englanders might steal the election from washington. From hamiltons perspective there could be only one king, one idolized star. Washingtons presidency boroughed the loyalty, chief executive in a grand mansion and road in a lavishly equipped carriage and he held indicate mate intimately with the court and washingtons image was known to all. A visiting rig gnattary remarked that americans kept portraits of washington in their homes much like the russians worshiped icons to have saints. Adams cleverly dissected washington and used skill to explain the worship of washington. The generals first and most important trait was adams emphasized his handsome face. He was 6foot 3. Elite breeding in form. Graceful movements and large estate. Washington was a man of few words. The goes are geese are all swans. We know it to be true as well. Voters take manufactured qualities assigns of enate character. He acquired the nasty nickname, label started while Vice President and used in the election of 1800. Political gamesmanship became more circus like by the time the second adams entered a president ial contest. In 1824 when then secretary of state John Quincy Adams was seeking presidency, a cartoon captured the race so called which to this day punt horse race. Tonight is the kentucky derby. Adams is ahead of crawford by a nose while Andrew Jackson dressed in military uniform is on their tail and coming up fast. Old john adams stands at the front of the crowd cheering on his son while spectators place wagers on the outcome. This is democracy at its worst, spectacle. The Election Campaign isnt about philosophies or policies but a gamble. The excitement of the race is what matters most. In 1828 when the second president adams lost election to jackson he found himself not only running against a National Hero but against a far better organized projackson party machine. The new Yorker Martin was jacksons election guru building on the earlier new yorker hamiltons playbook. Jacksons admirers tried to remold him to air of the noble washington but failed because jackson to be known impulsive and blustering and many autocratic. The general was promoted with a lavish campaign biography, the first of its kind. His rash arbitrary behavior was recast as a cardinal virtue. That is he exhibited frontier boldness and manly vigor where adams was overly cerebral. There was something even darker at work here. John quincy adams concluded that jacksons followers were really, and this is in his words and very important, champions of executive power and jacksonian democracy was in fact, a warrior cult of conquest. Democracy was a smoke screen, western expansion drove politics, slave holders wanted slavery to expand to the pacific. Behind the screen was a union of land speculators and southern slave holders. John quincy was elected to congress in 1830 after his oneterm presidency ended. It was an unusual move never to be repeated. He remained in the house until he died at his desk in 1848. Parties ruled. The art of partying drilling as he calls it was quasi military. Party membership became riotist and thats his word too, allowing southern democrats to purchase support for slavery from free men of the north. What could be a greater irony, jackson the head of the Democratic Party, jefferson supposedly Small Government Party was now a party of unchecked executive power. John quincy adams of error a man with rituals of european courts where he so long served as a diplomat. Somehow like his father before him he was a secret promoter of monarchy. The sad truth is this, the cult personality could hide all sins and voters often didnt care and for John Quincy Adams was that a slaveholding oligarchy had taken hold of the presidency along with the illusion of what textbooks call jacksonian democracy. We have opened up archives to look at arthur program of u. S. President s and now former second Lady Lynne Cheney revisits the life of james madison, she is joined in conversation by former Vice President dick cheney in 2014. He was the architect of the constitution, the architect of the bill of rights, he was crucial to the establishment of the first government under the constitution, he was president during the first war under the constitution and he performed if not magnificently in all those jobs at least very well. At the end of his presidency, john adams who was kind of a sour figure and not given to making complements easily, john adams wrote that James Madisons administration had covered itself in more glory than any of his predecessors which is a great complement because predecessors was washington and adams and i think its underappreciated. I know 5 years of labor doesnt sound like fun. Discovering things and being able to put it in a form that i hope would reach a wide audience and and as the book is called reconsidering James Madisons life. Which was the most important contribution, the fact the contributions are enormously, but if one, request you had to pick one what would it be . Well, it would have to be the constitution. I think he was a genius and the reason is he was the kind of genius he had is he was able to breakthrough convention thinking. When everybody else was thinking one way, madison didnt necessarily accept it. He would think of other possibilities and he did that in the case of the constitution and the case of establishing a Great Republic which is what we are. The conventional wisdom was that you couldnt have a Great Republic, you know, a Great Republic where people voted for representatives for themselves, represented government that it would be too loose over a long and vast extended land and it would fall apart unless you had monarchial power, a king in the center but madison thought that was not true. He thought, that in fact, the danger in a republic is that one faction will dominate and oppress everyone else and madisons genius was to see that if you had many factions as there would be in a large republic, then no single one was likely to be able to become oppressive and that was the rationale for the constitution produced in philadelphia. It was his genius to see through what everybody else believed through time and again and transformed the world by doing it. You talked about his relationship with the other founders, George Washington, for example. You know, we think sometimes of the founders of sort of sitting around having a polite conversation and and, you know, all of them have greater good at all times. Its much more interesting to realize which was people who firmly believed in their point of view and were willing to fight to see it succeed. In the beginning, madison was washingtons chief lieutenant. When the first government under the constitution began, now this will be familiar to any of you in politics, washington has an aide write his inaugural address and the aide produced a 72page disaster, so washington wrote to madison and asked him, please come to mount vernon and help and so madison did and he wrote washingtons inaugural address. Did a very good job of it. After washington delivered the address, madison who was the leader of the congress wrote the Congress Response to madison. [laughter] thank you, you laughed although i got it wrote. He wrote the Congress Response to the inaugural address and thought madison was so good for this kind of thing and asked him to write washingtons reply back to the congress. [laughter]. Twelve and three. Eight took a long time, many, many hours to put it all together. Can you cite the specific compromise and important provision they argued about them are ultimately able to resolve . At the same we all learned in history books about this big big states the small states. Of course the big states wanted stays to be represented proportionately according to the population. The small states one of the states to be representative states but we all know the compromise. They got representative states in the senate and proportionately in the house. Madison was appalled that he thought there should be proportional representation across the board. He had got into the Constitutional Convention inking its a great threat to the republic where the states. He called and the evil states. Because they had been so irresponsible under the articles of confederation, repressing religious freedom, churning out money. Rhode island was especially guilty it was called a rogue island. [laughter] turning out money and this is what rhode island did was passing laws that made it necessary for merchants to accept that depreciated money for a debt that had been incurred. So maybe you were getting paid off a penny on the dollar so the states were taxing one another oppressing one another actually. With Foreign Policy. Turns out what the compromise was now proportionately in the senate it took him a couple of days to get around to accepting that. What can seize entering conceivably made them think they needed a Vice President . It had to do with the Electoral College i finally got to the elect toy or college one they could not agree on anything else. The alternate that point was to let congress choose the president just imagine how different the president would be if congress was choosing purdy would not have had a Ronald Reagan. While nixon i dont think he wouldve had a nixon either. You wouldve had plenty of speakers of the house though go on to become president. The Electoral College gets two votes. Again, the big states in the small states. The small states are worried so to assuage their concern you could only cast one vote, one was from your own state which gave the smaller states a better chance for the one guy in your state to be important you throw away the second vote. To prevent that they invented the vice presidency. The idea was the person who got the secondhighest number number of votes with them become Vice President. That seems like a pretty good idea. But then they started worrying what was he going to do. [laughter] it so interesting to how this thing builds up. They decided he needed a job and they would make him president of the senate. By the end of the Constitutional Convention thereto that were so worried, the Vice President be the creature of the executive branch being part of the senate about his violating the separation of powers. Two delegates, and randolph of virginia, two delegates im sorry it was gary in george mason of virginia specifically cited the vice presidency as reasons they would not sign the constitution. They called it that dangerous office. So there you go will. [laughter] host during the course of his career but implementing the constitution review the best way to describe it, Alexander Hamilton became an important player in all of that. Can you talk about what it was when you could talk about disagreements and confrontation . Sue mcpherson may be important to understand he and hamilton were not buddies exactly but friendly colleagues. They wrote federalists papers together with a little help from jon j. The story of writing the federalist papers if you dont mind. Go ahead. I will divert a little bit here. This was done at such speed and such haste. I was explaining to a college audience and with you from colleges and universities in this area would appreciate that what madison did was an equivalent of writing a ten page paper every other day. The papers became immortal. So writing philosophy writing politics, right and convince people to support the constitution so madison and hamilton respected one another until hamilton became secretary of the treasury under George Washington. And began to make his financial plans clear. Madison was troubled from the beginning. But eventually, particularly when the issue of establishing a National Bank came up, he was deeply concerned. He didnt think a bank was a bad idea. But, at the Constitutional Convention, in fact he said at such a good idea that at the Constitutional Convention he would propose giving them the power to grant charters and thats what you needed if you wanted to establish a bank. But the they turn the opportunity down Third Congress did not have the power that was madisons problem. Hamilton was simply running roughshod over the strict number of powers that congress had been given. There is no power to grant charters therefore taught you should not establish a bank. He went on to kind of win the war you could say, he established. [inaudible] this any better reputation than than they do now. Again this is counterintuitive as against wisdom the parties were divisive, they were noisy we did not want them in the republican madison half, yes we do. A government without opposition is a little more than a monarchy. We organized to change the way, defeat the way that hamilton was trying to carry the government to make it so strong and something the constitution had not contemplated. By founding this he managed to get jefferson elected president 1800. Jefferson, like madison was a small government guy. That was former senate Lady Lynne Cheney on the life and politics of james mattis. Up next in the look at u. S. President is another former official from the george w. Bush administration. November of 2015, karl appeared on our Weekly Program after words to recap the president ial campaign of william mckinley. He is joined here in conversation by historian. We have our new nominees with two positions how deceased man campaign . How does mckinley campaign . How does brian do a . Brand has one thing is to deal with and hes got the support of the populist party but they nominate their own Vice President ial running mate. He is a complicated problem hes gotta conciliate the popular they got a million votes in 1982 he was to take the democrats who voted for cleveland, put them with the populace who voted for general weaver, james weaver in 1892 and thereby sank the republic. But he is a democratic roaming it at a populace running mate and has to finesse the issue of how to get the populace running mate off the ticket with battleground states by cant afford the vote to be split. He decides hes going to storm the country to fashion thats never been done before. Hes going to get on a train to make three major trips. As a first time its ever happened for theres been occasions in previous elections which a candidate michael on the road major ga our encampment number of times they spoke on the road to less than a dozen. There was kind of a Front Porch Campaign in 1888. Theres about 80 speeches he gave the visiting delegations in neapolis over four months. Nobody did what brian did was get on a train and go someplace. It is an amazing testament to his courage and his endurance. Most days, until october 7 and august and september until october 7 he is generally making his own train reservations, riding in a common car, grabbing a sandwich at a depot someplace and helping many got to the end of the line someone would pick him up and have a hotel reservation. Sometimes he had a private car, makes a trip through kentucky, tennessee, virginia up to washington d. C. In late decembers got a private railcar provided to him. Hes the head of the populist campaign the young senator from South Carolina wrote his compatriot with the national committee, senator jones, saturn james joad of arkansas eve got in a private railcar. I saw with my own eyes. We took a late train to baltimore because they wanted him to be in delaware at 8 00 oclock a. M. We waited until 2 00 a. M. To switch trains we got them on that train we caught the express to dover and there were a handful of people there. Youre going to kill him if you keep doing this to him. If you have a private car he can fall asleep in the car, be moved in the trade would pick them up in the middle of the night he could wake up refreshed, have a place to wash his clothes wash his face have a meal. But he is traveling by hook and by crook. So is traveling everywhere but what does mckinley do . Hes being pressed to go on the road. Once panic stops in its unstoppable haner is panicked. By late july early august hes believing that by god with got a race on her hands prettys suppression mckinley gotta go on the road. Mckinley says to him i cant do that. If i go on the road, hes going to get on a trapeze and im going to have to mimic him. If i go on the road, ive been on the road before i know what its like. Haner sends friends to go talk to them. I sent myron to go talk to him and finally, mckinley says i got to think before i speak. So what he happens is people are already showing up in groups so somebody and i think that somebody is mckinley says lets make that my routine. Only lets get it organized. So these people not simba shall up on my doorstep and say hey were here to seal it set it up as we know whos coming. Lets invite the people we want to have come. So its not the people want to volunteer to come. Lets have them come. If its a critical voter group from a critical state lets know theyre coming have them tells what they want to say to advance lets edit lets figure out so i have remarks every time they show up have a manifestation will take them under an arch to the Courthouse Square will have them form up there will have bands and all kinds of entertainment to keep them occupied. When the moment comes when i initially with the last delegation we know how long it takes them to march up market street. They could come along we have an organized program they can say what they want to say they will give me a gift, i will thank them for coming if ive got time all shake everybodys hands and bagley gone to the next group. This becomes campaigning on an industrial scale. 750,000 people come in on some weekends at 100,000 people come in groups of varying sizes like a regimented thing. They show up at the station, they go to the town square, the women go shopping the men pick up cigars, merchants do wellin town. Sometimes the Community Take special groups and feeds them at the tabernacle. They have appropriate drinks for the men of your dryer get a cup of coffee and a sandwich. They come through its industrial in scale but it is unified, organize and deliberate. He is exactly what he wants to say. The messages tailored to the individual audience its repeated by them and they go home i saw the major heres what he said. Which of these two men do you think addressed more people . I am convinced by the numbers that bryant sees more people its estimated to 3 Million People attended his rally. He would go everywhere and they were people. He attracted spectators. Mckinley attracted supporters it was targeted. What he did he in essence created an army. His campaign was based on the principle. We want to create an army of people that will service our surrogates and advocates. They organized everybody. They had groups or blacks, womens, some women could vote in western states for the organized traveling salesman, the commercial club. These are people who traveled widely, spoke well and knew lots of people. There is a big craze sweeping the country lots of young men were falling into it was great excitement. They decided to type it. Host tells what happens on election day. Guest on election day mckinley wins the northeast. Theres not a single county in the northeast that he loses he wins 75 of the vote he takes all the critical battleground states ohio and indiana fall his way he wins most of the critical battleground states in the midwest. He hoped to win nebraska and kansas he loses the Rocky Mountain states he loses the south as expected all the states in the old confederacy fall to the democrats even though several are close. The critical breakthrough is the border states of maryland, kentucky, where mckinley wins. The republicans had not won there in decades. He nearly loses missouri where theres an internal issue with the republicans he takes oregon and neroli california on the west coast. 51 of the vote which no one had done since the reelection of grant in 1872. He wins a dominant majority and the Electoral College. So what are the consequences of that for the twoparty system . And brings it to the Republican Party a new immigrants and laborers against republicans dominance for the next 36 years. Up to the depression. Republicans hold the house for 26 out of 36 years. The white house for 28 and the only time they lose power is when they divide among themselves as they do in 1912. They held more governors and legislatures than today them major cities during this time are routinely republicans boston, philadelphia, baltimore, cleveland, cincinnati, st. Louis they are republican mayors left and right. Mckinley has created a new coalition for workers and smalltown farmers who have their own farms on the traditional Small Business allies of the Republican Party and Union Veterans a becomes a Unstoppable Coalition for over three decades. You credit mckinley with real political creativity and foresight. Who, since his time as a consummate politician deliberately set out to blow out the pylons blacks begin to move into the Democratic Party dues are in element in the party a populist movement had a lot of very angry anti somatic voices. A lot of the Jewish Voters in america became voters. Italians who had been republicans. Anyone else . Ronald reagan in his own way politics of change but if what youre looking at who is a strong principal leader who is able to change politics those of the two had picked more than anyone else. You are watching book tv on cspan2. Were taking a look at author programs about american president s. In august of 2014 president ial historian Rick Perlstein was on the q a program to talk about the presidency between 1973 in 1976. This is a. Would Richard Nixon resigned ronald ragan entered the National Political stage. The big story of 73 to 1976. It turned out to be in the dark, dark, dark. Which is what we started out talking about, people are turning on their tvs and watching the watergate hearings, we lost the first war in vietnam but the first inklings of the Energy Shortage which was shocking because they did no energy was something theres a shortage of. Something what i find salutary starting to happen. People are beginning to think about america and how we could solve big problems. How could call our leaders into account, how we could create a Foreign Policy that is not involved in being the worlds policeman getting into another vietnam. How we could conserve energy. There is a struggle at the same time people really did not want to do the hard work of facing our problems and that Ronald Reagan rode on that wave and began telling people that watergate was not really a problem. They were not criminals at heart that is a line he said. It was a truck stop and by the time it was bicentennial which was the ultimate chapter of the book, this sort of traditional vision of patriotism is winning out over a more stern grownup version and my interpretation. We are going to jump we can get to ronald ragan ran and 72. Before that heres something you never see in this country and thats a president testifying before congress this is gerald ford after the pardon this to be october 1974. I wonder if anyone had brought to your attention the fact the constitution specifically states that even though someone is impeached that person shall nonetheless be liable for punishable according to law. I was fully cognizant of the fact the present on resignation was accountable for any criminal charges. I would like to say that the reason i gave the pardon was not to mr. Nixon himself i repeat and i repeat with emphasis the emphasis of the pardon was to try to get the United States, congress, the president , and the American People focusing on the Serious Problems we have both at home and abroad. That is riveting stuff. That is so symbolic about the. I am writing about. Its symbolic of this poor guy, gerald ford. He has the worst luck he is the best of any president weve ever had buddies depicted on tv as a physical bubbler because of a couple slips he made. Gerald ford was damned if he did and damned if he didnt. So desperate to be seen as transparent, open, transcending with darkness and close nature of the white house under Richard Nixon. He accepts the subpoenaed to testify about this pardon. And yet, he looked so squarely looks like one of the bad guys weve seen the summer before the watergate hearings. Instead being celebrated for his openness, no one trusts him. Everyone assumes because everyone is rotten. The have no faith in their institutions no faith in their leaders this guy was in on the scam. Host you said some strong things about gerald ford in there what you think of him . Guest i think he was a man doing the bestie could in an almost impossible situation. I think he promised something he could not deliver. He promised and to division. Theres National Nightmare is over almost utopian, almost utopian terms watergate it is we turn the corner. But their face with the burdens of governance. He basically looked justice squarely at the last guy. And then the bicentennial, 76, hes kind of ending his first sermon entering the general election against jimmy carter pretty wrote in his diary after this wonderful celebration this patriotic celebration people were skeptical whether america could or should have a choice after all of the problems being faced. And he said well i think we have healed america. Its a belief we can heal america and write our divisions off the book its always a promise that politicians cant deliver this note read america or blue america. Barack obama made and could not deliver its big theme in my book. I want to go to the last chapter. Chapter 32 the end is in question. What happens at the end . [laughter] the New York Times says Ronald Reagan is too old to run for president after he loses the nomination. They did basically imply you are not going to have Ronald Reagan to kick around anymore. She said something more complicated. Originally in the galley i struck the quote because as she pointed out to me quite generously she said that a couple weeks before the speech and then she changed her mind after he gave the speech ragan shows based its a wonderful piece. I want you to describe it. Well show you several pieces of video here. The first one is when gerald ford is calling Ronald Reagan to the podium. This is kansas city, 1976. At this stage what is happened . So Ronald Reagan has made an underdog challenge to gerald ford. This was really the last convention which the outcome was not predetermined. No one knew whos going to win this convention. It was quite possible Ronald Reagan couldve ran away with the upset of the nominee in 1976. Then you probably wouldve lost to jimmy carter in history wouldve turned out differently. Basically, his people have done a good enough job of coming close that they when certain concessions at the very conservative platform, bob dole is chosen as the running mate is a liberal republican. After gerald ford gives his acceptance speech, he beckons to the rafter poor Ronald Reagan is up in nosebleed seats because of course people control the convention and did not want him in the place for the cameras. And says i think he called him ron or ronnie watch. His why dont you come give a speech. See when that wasnt accidental. Nancy reagan among others have propagated this that this speech was completely spontaneous and he did not want to give it. There is a wonderful book that tells the behindthescenes story 1976 campaign by a guy is still active in washington, victor gold. Yes hes a real character i understand its called pr is for president. He used to work first bureau and barry goldwater. He is a skirmish and he seems like to me. Lift the curtain from behind the campaigns were run and have detailed reporting of all of the negotiations that make it look like Ronald Reagan is giving a spontaneous speech. But actually giving this speech that was choreographed right down to the potential dont want to give the speech. Host lets just look at the first part of this were gerald ford is calling Ronald Reagan to the stage get your reaction to it. [background noises] is asking Ronald Reagan to come down and join him. Hes gesturing to him, waving to him, the box and he may not even be able to see the president. [background noises] he shouting into the microphone Ronald Reagan would you come down and bring nancy said the president. Come on down. They just delivered the alabama. Host thats jon chancellor and David Brinkley whats going on writer . Guest this is the part where Ronald Reagan feigns his reluctance. Finally, wins the crowd accolades and the support was so loud is like okay im going to do it. Supposedly he said to one of his aides, i dont even know what im going to say. And then he into the batters box. One of the great grand slams. Bob dole had terrible time during the convention because the two sides were so angry at each other. At one point as they ripped one of the Reagan Campaign signs in half and one of the reagan people ripped out the phone from the near delegation. It was a chaotic issue. There is gerald fords son. The next in this go to joe ford introducing and then Ronald Reagan beginning to speak at that convention. We are all part of this Great Republican family that will give the leadership to the American People to win on november 2. I would like, i would be honored on your behalf to ask my good friend governor ragan to say a few words at this time. [cheering] [cheering] [cheering] host Ronald Reagan was an amazing speaker. He had an amazing gift people were amazed at how you give a half an hour commercial stop at 30 seconds with this in his head. He had an ability of other seeing him and delivered exactly what would create the greatest emotional energy. Lets listen a little bit. Distinguished guests here, you ladies and judgment. I will say federal republicans here but those who are watching from a distance all of those democrats and independents who are looking for a cause or on which to rally which i believe we can give them. [cheering] with confidence in the face of a party who is really seen on the ropes this is when americans are identifying themselves as republicans and political genius say we can bring in democrats. Host was a reaction on the part of republicans to hems versus gerald ford at that point . If you continue to watch this, basically the people in the audience look at they are at a religious revival. People are crying, they are holding hands, they are swearing. Gerald ford give a good speech but Ronald Reagan gave a great speech. In fact one of the p ebola my speaking agency when he finished the book and read this account of the speech and how people were crying and swaying, this is a guys not a conservative or republican he said he cried. The ability of Ronald Reagan to elicit emotion from people who dont see it coming is one of his astounding gifts. Host heres more of him speaking. There are cynics who say that a Party Platform is something no one bothers to read and it doesnt very often amount to much. Whether it is different this time that has ever been before, i believe the Republican Party has a platform that is a banner of bold, unmistakable colors are pastel shade. [cheering] [applause] [cheering] we have just heard a call to arms based on that platform. A call to us is successful in communicating and revealed to the American People the difference between this platform and the platform of the opposing party which is nothing but a revamp in issue and running of a late, late show of the thing weve been hearing for the last 40 years. [applause] [cheering] host what you hearing . Hes declaring victory lots of great gorilla fighting going on the platform in fact when he says this is truly a platform of no pale pastels, tender language which i dont think be acceptable todays action referring back to a speech he gave at the 1975 when she said we need a party that is not an imitation of the democrats but one that strikes its colors exactly the language he used. Its basically him saying to his supporters, you think ford one, but we have really won the future. So we are going to win the war even afford wins the battle. The other thing we hear is him reaching out to democrats. Courts were firmly with the phrase reagan democrats the White Working Class voters in the feminist movement can be brought into the republican tent was another one of his geniuses. The fact that he sees this movement when she can strike a new vision of the Republican Party for the future, really shows the American Political Movement becoming Ronald Reagans. Host that was president ial historian Rick Perlstein has written extensively on president nixon and president ragan. He has appeared on book tv 14 times you can watch his programs any time by visiting our website but tv. Org and searching his name. Up next as we continue to look at author programs about u. S. President s, mark is the former director of the Lyndon Baines johnson president ial library. In 2017 he spoke of his biography of george h. W. And george w bush. Ive only had one other fatherson president in the history of United States. There is jon adams and Jon Quincy Adams and theres nearly a quarter of a century between the presidency of those two men. Jon adams was in his last 16 months of life when Jon Quincy Adams was in office. He is in quincy, massachusetts, threeday stagecoach ride let me change that sixday stage coach right away from washington. He is not able to be in washington to be any kind of influence on his sons presidency. Hes a spy 76 years old when his son took the office he been there before he is in a position to be a real influence on his sons life. This is a story that needed to be told. And they agreed to do it if 43 was george w. Bush agreed to do the book. I wasnt sure if he would say yes or no i knew georgia b bush a little bit he took the meeting and i was shocked the beginning of the meeting he said im sorry this story is retold and you are the guy to do it i was so unprepared i did not have a recording device. And he sat there put his feet up on the desk and he fingered an unlit cigar and he started talking about his dad. I realize there was so much to him there is a mystery about his father. Particularly his fathers early years when he went to war as an 18yearold, signed up for the navy shot down when he was 19 his wife was scared his crewmates were not there some purpose he had on earth that he was spared and his friends were not. He went to forgo the family passes the riches of wall street and go to the fields of odessa to make his way in the oil business. He became a husband at 21, became a father and soon thereafter. Lost his daughter, his second child before his 30 years old. These are amazing years that ushered him early into manhood and george w. Bush really had not talked to him a lot about it. It was a wonderful privilege to get the story out of both of them in the intimate way that they were willing to tell it. Just to get people to unpack because for two figures who have this historic throw away, are not particularly given to reflection or psychological report. Theyre very in the moment its not particular he planned out theyve rejected the idea of the dynasty how did you get them and what were your favorite stories about getting the interviews to get them to reveal they are remarkably candid, unfiltered comments. Some language we cannot use in front of a family crowd. Hugh got them to really be reflective, candid but were semi your favorite interviewing stories . Again the intimacy. They realize the story needed to be told in some ways they were revealing things that the others did not know. That was the amazing thing i would tell 43 something about his daddy said said thats interesting i didnt know that. You said theres famously circumspect. George w. Bush sometimes when he is getting in perspective when say will disses psychobabble. And then he would tell me something that was particularly revealing. I remember one conversation with george h. W. Bush and is very small office. He was sorted getting hard of hearing. As the two of us he was in his wheelchair and her legs were touching behind the desk in his office. He was talking about what he would have done if he were president when his son was president with iraq. Would 41 have done what 43 wouldve done . And he said well the final analysis i probably wouldve been its hard to tell but i think so. Its kind of iconic at this stage in his life. Is that the answer from a former commanderinchief . Or the answer of a father who wants to protect his son . Im not really sure he wouldve done what is funded. But he was being protective at that moment when he was thinking about his sons actions with the war in iraq i think he is being protective. Host the extraordinary loyalty. This is not just a families contrite in spirit but kennedys dont cry. Love is really a word they used a lot and loyalty. The family values, not the political expedient way of deploying that term. But the real family values they embody. Talk about unconditional love from his father. The character, service, humility really mattered, civility matters. The idea of responsibility that comes with power. All that flows from the father. How do you codify that tradition in the family . And then how do you contrast that with some of the values you see today. Because to me it is stark. Is dramatically different. There is a family in its understandable issue around the bushes. I stand for civility, decency, and putting service above self. That is something that was passed through the family. George h. W. Bush talks about the lessons he learned that his mothers knee. His father was a great influence in his life. I dont know that he ever felt like he measured up to his dad in any way which was remarkable for the president to say. He talks frequently about his mother and she would often say george dont be a braggart. Talk about the team, i dont care how many homerooms you hit, how did the team do . Did you win . Because if you didnt when its a moot point. So that humility thats really the hallmark in so many respects is clearly lacking today. Not just with a lacking and it commanderinchief its discourse to a large extent. In the age of social media it is inherently. More talk about the fatherson relationship. There is a great story that the elder bush told me about being with his son in midland when george w was three years old. Apparently he erected in a fit of temper about something. Nows as they were walking along the streets. George w start flailing away, almost cartoon style like a windmill. His arms are going 360 degrees and is trying to hit his dad. And his dad is keeping him at bay by just putting his palm on his flushed forehead until he talkers himself out. And then he just stops and walks along again. [laughter] in a way its a metaphor of the young and reckless days because in some ways you try to land a blow with his dad ultimately they walked on didnt bring up that ill tempered moment. There some fathering and parenting and those wonderful details in the book, moments where you can see h. W. Leading by example. One example is he walked off a summer job a couple days early you tell the story because it apparently made a big impression in terms of a parenting style is both relatable and inherently a story. Goes back to the story i just mentioned as a metaphor. They worked as a roughneck or in west texas but he made a considerable amount of money. He had agreed to work for eight weeks, walked off the job in his seventh week because he wanted to spend time with his girlfriend. He goes to see his dad and his dad said you did not honor the commitment you made. I am ashamed of you, i am disappointed. And george w. Bush walks out of his dads office with conflicts. He disappoint his father prayed that his fathers greatest weapon to talk about how disappointed he was at any given point. He was not emotional and any point he didnt yell at his kids he didnt hit his kids there was no Corporal Punishment in the bush home. But that expression of disappointment was the best thing he could do to sound a message that said straighten up and fly right. So what happens he leaves his Fathers Office and he gets a call from his dad later on the afternoon and said can you and kathy come his girlfriend, come to the astros game tonight have a couple of tickets. So expresses disappointment he welcomes them right back into the fold. That faith he had an essential ultimately do the right thing never weighed. I love that that is a story he carries with him for theres another fascinating one for his mother barbara, they have a family intervention because he was busted for smoking at 17. H. W. Ways in. Guest its barbara bush, take them out for dinner hes at that. 16 years old. So its a big deal this never happens his parents ever take me to it dinner it was an intervention. Barbara bush said you smoke, you smoke, when are you smoking . And george h. W. Said barb, you smoke too. [laughter] and the subject just kind of died. [laughter] host i love that you cant get on someone for something you do for yourself. Its just a little bit of yankee common sense which is lovely. Is an amazing interview the interviews are really extraordinary in the book. But when george w rejects he was ever prodigal son. Guest there are a lot of misconceptions about george w. Bush and the relationship he has with his father. One is the expedient narrative that he was the prodigal son. The one who was never expected to amount to anything and certainly not the political. That is just dead wrong there are aspects of it that are true. But actually he was quite auspicious in many respects. One of the things he said to me ive got to clean up the language a little bit, is that i chased a lot of tail and i drink a lot of whiskey. I was never a prodigal because i never left my family. He never did he always embraced his family. One of the things you almost were expected to do as a bush, is make it on your own. To achieve some success on your own. To leave the nest often strike out in different places to make your own mark. Once you can provide your family to go into public life and to put something above your self. And ultimately, george w. Bush does that. But his family never leaves him, he always loves, respects and admires them. I dont think he was as rebellious as some people think he was. There are other stories about president s, contributors to see spends book who has numerous historians rank the president s they offered their thoughts in april of 2019 the museum here in washington d. C. What you thing a survey of the president s, and this book is desirable . To me, im reading the survey over the closer the last few days preparing to be here today, i thought it was very striking what it tells you about the country and our history. The pattern that jumped out at me when i saw it, was the way the modern president s are treated. There 12 president s have served since world war ii, 12 out of 43 thats barely one in four. Those are represented very heavily at the top tier. Five out of the top ten are modern president s. Seven out of the top 15 our modern president s. We sat in our country we are so lucky to have great people. [laughter] but there they were. When i first thought of that i wondered if it was just a vibe built in that we tend to overestimate, exaggerate the good and the bad about people from our life people we know by seeing them on tv every day. But thinking about it really represented something more. It represented how the presidency has changed. That modern president is much more consequential than early president s. None of the 32 president s who served before the postworld war ii era ever had to deal with thermonuclear war and the prospect of millions of people being killed by a Nuclear Exchange in a couple of hours. None of them had to deal with the United States as a global power and having to Deal International relations at the level we do now. Yes, there always been newspapers and publicity and often negative publicity going back to jon adams but the modern president s have had to deal with the Television Age which is put their face in our household every single day and knowing in a very different way. As a result, they really are more consequential. How someone like James Garfield or Teddy Roosevelt or Rutherford Hayes with stack up the way the modern president s are something we dont know very interesting thing to think about. But they werent it was a different era. That really jumped out at me. Sue and david how about the importance question works to make a lot of way these surveys are a mirror of our times as much as a reflection of what went before. You see a lot of sensitivity towards issue of race and inclusion. Andrew johnson was a racist he started out and they did the first survey 1948. Johnson was 19 out of 33 he was doing okay. Since people have become much more conscious of his racist policies the way he abandon the freed slaves after the civil war, he has dropped like iraq. And i think appropriately. Andrew jackson who was terrific president taken a lot of heat for both his actions as a slaveholder and slave trader but also his actions toward the Indian Tribes were his quite ferocious as a military figure and sending them off to the west and taking their lands. So it tells us a lot about who we are who we think we are or want to be. And i think it runs the risk. Thats a nice story for why we have so many modern president s that its right. Im not so sure its right. I also think it reflects we are pretty self obsessed and that president s like Andrew Jackson who were incredibly important really change the country. Polk was acquired 40 of landmass. They are being forgotten and going away. I think that is a problem we have that our memories are not as good as they should be. It is a reminder to those of us who write history we need to preach the sermon a little and help keep the stories live. Host youve conducted all the interviews that appear in this book, im wondering when you see them altogether to anything surprise you or stand out as you read it as one book . Guest i would say the most important thing i learned putting them all together was how much i had forgotten the time since the interview. The beauty of this you can go back and read what they had to say, some of what they had to say in the archive allows you to go on and listen to the interviews. I listen to both of the interviews i have done with these gentlemen in preparation for this and they were fantastic. Not because of me but because of them. Host some people look at this is a book of president s i look at it as a book of president s but just importantly the fabulous historian we do not give enough credit to. They spend weeks and years going over all of the little details. If we dont have historians would not have this kind of information. Frankly sitting here with me talking is driving me crazy right now. I would rather listen to these two guys because they have stories to tell. Host lets get back your chapter is on garfield. You said the assassination was one of the more misunderstood events in american history. Tell us why. Guest couple of things. First, is the man that shot James Garfield arguably he was killed by the doctors his head by two bullets one hit his arm is in his back. There were a lot of people, particularly in that area is just after the civil war. A lot of people had gunshot wounds and live to tell the story. But garfield in fact died of infection and blood poisoning caused by his doctors examining his wound without washing their hands and without cleaning their instruments. The theory existed, but was still a new idea had not been totally adopted. But most doctors on the western frontier in the civil war doctors who dealt with gunshot wounds, knew that you do not examine a wound with your unwashed hands. There is direct testimony of that at the time so even by the standards of the time it should not have happened. The other thing that i will mention briefly, the garfield assassination was different than the others in the purpose of the assassination jon wilkes booth shot Abraham Lincoln in order to kill Abraham Lincoln. Lee arby Hawes Jim Oswald shot kennedy to kill john kennedy. What charles was trying to do had nothing personal against James Garfield, he like the man, he met his him and his wife. Hes trying to redo and traverse the election. He is not so much trying to get garfield out of office as to put someone else in office is trying to make Chester Allen arthur and his circle of friends the president and ruling circle in the United States. It was a regime change. Thats a very scary thought when you think about it and he was successful in doing it. And to get back to question susan asked about mount vernon earlier this week, Abraham Lincoln of course is ranked number one president. So James Buchanan and Andrew Johnson came after him consistently ranks the last two, heidi explained that . So lincoln was historical kryptonite you dont to be close to him he had the greatest challenges of any president ended such a wonderful job its hard to look good next to that. But, they were cosmically unsuccessful. Buchanan slid into war and almost did to stop it was tragic. And johnson remade the nation after the war. Historical reputation is a fascinating thing he was celebrated for bringing the south back into the union was healing the country is actually part of the country that did not that has that awareness has grown that cause the decline it is worth noting is not the sort of thing, the survey can correct for. It was a really hard set of problems these guys had to deal with. Civil war is tough. We had 700,000 americans killed during the war, comparable casualties today would be 7 million. relations with the press, who would rank near the top and near the bottom and brian i would like to get your thoughts. You have interviewed so many historians. I will be quick. There are stories about each president and how it related to the media and one of my favorites is calvin coolidge, during his time radio came into being and he did 22 speeches into the radio microphone and for people that remember his image it would not have been terrific for television, but it was okay for radio. It was during the time that he was on radio the audience built it grew, just like cspan started with 3 million homes and then went up to 100 million, he started out with very few radio stations and went up to several hundred more in those of stories exist with each president. Any thoughts on press relations . I think kennedy was brilliant at its. He charmed everyone, but he charmed the press also and i think Franklin Roosevelt because he would have the whole White House Press corps into his office once a week and he would sit at his desk and fielded questions and, i mean, he knew how not to answer, but when you spend that much face time with the president , its very effective in getting them to pull their punches. This is when i will be curious to see how our current president is when the next cspan poll comes around. I agree, kennedy and fdr certainly took out on the Positive Side of the equation, probably nixon would stick out on the negative side of the equation, but the current president has made this a signature issue and it will be interesting to see how that works out. Historian David O Stewart and Kenneth Ackerman now available to purchase in paperback wherever books are sold and that wraps up at our look of author programs on us president s and if you missed any of these programs or would like to watch in our entirety, watch our website book tv. Org and access by using the search box at the top of the page and a search president and a book. You are watching the tv on cspan2, television for serious readers. Here are programs to watch out for, black lives matter cofounder off as her thoughts on organizing and building longterm grassroots movements. Katherine arnold provides a global history of the 1918 influenza pandemic and law professor argues against the expanding powers of the presidency. Find more information on book tv. Org and on your Program Guide my name is Kaylee Martin and im historian at the museum and today i have the pleasure of interviewing katherine sharp landdeck about her new book, the women with silver wings, so thank you for joining us today. Thanks so much for having me. She has a great stream of photos she will put out for us as wis