Of this screen and theres others at the atlanta History Center. We will have q a on your screen ill try to get to them, as many as them as time will allow. Doctor Bettye Kearse as a retired physician, geneticist and nominated essayist for the other madison is her first book it follows a nearly 30 year quest to confirm her lineage. It was called roots for a new generation, Bettye Kearse thank you so much for being with us. Im very happy to be part of this program. Host most of us grow up thinking up as james mattis, wrote the first draft of the u. S. Constitution and bill of rights, what did you think . What were you told about him growing up. Guest well, i was told mostly what everybody else was as you said he was an important figure in American History. But, i was also told that he was my great, great great, great grandfather through his relationship with one of his enslaved cooks, her name was karine. So he was my ancestor. And reminded of this, always remember you are a madison you come from african slaves and a president , what did that mean to you as a child. To me it was set clear expectations. It was intended to be a force of inspiration. I was reminded i have this great man and my Family History and that also i had slaves in my family who were to be admired as well there is a lot to live up to a lot was expected of me. And your mother, she carried stories of your lineage told to her by her father and his father and before when theyd been enslaved eight generations going back to the african woman who was kidnapped from her home country and brought to the united states. This is the tradition of the green out in the feminine. Tell us a little bit about that tradition and its role in your family. Guest the tradition goes back thousands of years. Probably before the birth of christ. The men and women who maintain entire cultures and the history of those cultures with the values. Forever. Im sure it is still going on today. Primarily it is a tradition of oral history. So this oral history carried throughout your family and your mother, she told the story to others there is a slide presentation she gave to historical and genealogical organizations in the 1980s junior brother call it the black madison lecture circuit. She in fact handled this role to you and she gave you the box as you call in the book what was in the box . Guest in the box was all kinds of things there were birth certificates, death certificates, marriage license, lots and lots of photographs. It was amazing hand stitching old fashion hand smoking i dont even know that is, it was a very fancy sort of embellished clothing for little girls. There were slaves senses with newspaper articles, if its anything that could be gathered up and put together. I like the letters theyre very important. Between family members so what it mean for you to receive this box . Guest its a big responsibility. My mother hadnt warned me all use that word warned me this was someday going to be my responsibility to take care of this box. And its contents and should be the one responsible for making sure the stories did not die and would be passed on to generations. So was sort of overwhelmed. Not sure really how i should handle it. So its a little story that contributes to my concern and that is my mother is the one who created the box before that time my grandfather, my greatgrandfather kept their documents and whatever they could find inside the family bible. My grandfather lost it during a move from one small texas town to another and he was devastated identify should try to make sure that didnt happen again and put them away or should i tell these stories to as many people who were interested stories around those things are so important. They were not just my family stories are stories of enslaved people and these people represented other africanamericans. There is a message of stress and persistence and love i thought was important to share. I want to hear a little bit more about ambivalence this section on a path of discovery, many, many miles covered many obstacles a lot of emotional freight lets say your mother had a reverence for the madison family gave pride, meaning and strength for what for her had been a really hard life. I love to hear some of your feelings about that what it meant for you. You had more ambivalence about being connected with this family im up product of the 60s. During the civil war movement the black power movements in importantly i felt licensed to take on some of the more uncomfortable sides and not try to hide them try to talk about them head on. Very different by the way my mother looked at it. She was very proud of being a relative of president madison and somewhat reinsured and comforted by having Something Special and her family background. That set her a part from those who were experiencing the really difficult parts of being black in america. She group however with the very strict mother. Just to reiterate that people if they have questions for the doctor you can estimate q a type of into the q a section its on bottom of your screen. We will try to get to them. Youre alluding to hitting these things head on and this all began with mandy she was kidnapped from africa as a teenager, purchased by james mattis senior, he sexually assaulted her, she bore his child, coreen was her name, james junior became president raped coreen who bore his child to this not only rate but incest in there. Ruby was really. [inaudible] and it was courageous with the conversation you had about it head on. Can you talk about that conversation . Guest i remember this pretty well i was sitting on the floor of the bunch of papers around me when i decided to call her. I was thinking did she really recognize what this was . I called her up and i said juno president madisons father was a rapist . She said really . I said yes. Thats what they were. She was quite uncomfortable with that term. She preferred the term visiting. We think that meant for her to framing it like that . Call it visiting her to listen to me . Stomach either. Im interested in that dynamic this is a part of what you confronted is not just be notifying Historical Records but its your own family, the history they had carried with them. In a way, you are batting at a sacred cow. Yes i was the first to take up the bats. Not just my mother, but my grandfather who actually passed down the story who always use the term visiting and her mother explained to her what that meant and when my mother would go to someone else like her sister my aunt lara they were uncomfortable with talk about what actually happened in a straightforward way. They would refuse to talk about it and were angry if approached. With those kind of questions. You however are going to get that the unvarnished truth about the parts of the saga that had gone unchallenged. The official history as james mattis did not have any children with his wife the famous hostess Dolley Madison bridge she had a widow and a son but you destroy your families generational details and the life of james and careened son jim it was sold off as a teenager at dolleys urging. Can you give us a little recap its complicated in a life but a sense of what you heard about his life . Speech about jims life . Guest yes, jim was madison and careened son. About the time he was born they came to live with them out mount pelee are. A valet was assigned to be his wetnurse. The story goes that coreen put jim on one breast and the baby in victoria on the other breast and nurse them together. Over the years it became very good friends. When they were in their teens, they fell in love with each other. And dolly found out about it. She promptly sold him and he never saws mother or father or victoria again. Host at the heartbreaking story one of just many heartbreaks. Youre going to try these unnamed unrecorded what happened to jim . In 1992 you made your first of many trips to montpelier this is the madison Family Plantation its a now Historic Sites travel to portugal, africa, and like many slaves whose lives were not considered important enough a lot went cold but there were some real breakthrough moments for you would you care to share any of those . In terms of finding jim . In terms of whatever you discovered along the way. There are so many little gems as youre wandering through this maze to try to find more about your family. It was certainly difficult, often nays were not recorded, often families were separated, sold apart which is what happened to jim. I tried but it was very difficult to find out who had purchased them, where exactly he had gone, and the trail picks up with his son immanuel so there is documentation of him does not have his name we know who it was because of who owned him. He was owned by jeff who was famous in tennessee and famous later in texas when they moved there. Said theyd hoped to trace it back from immanuel to jim. They didnt quite do it. I want to say we talked about me and my cousins. One of my cousins has passed the three of us were doing research together. One unfortunately passed. But my cousin, sean harley came across an 1830 slave census. It sent American Census because the man he found his name was shadrach madison. And so a number of reasons that shadrach actually could not have been jim so thats whats trying to do and verify he was born in virginia about the same time they lived in the same place they were originally owned by the same family. They had a name shadrach. Then they were freed, they chose the name madison. Stu went that speaks to always remember you are a madison. C1 thank you for writing this important book, what are your thoughts regarding those who are trying to rewrite the narrative around slavery as they portray that as . They are deniers. In some ways are not on like lara who did not want to talk about the painful parts. This is a part of American History. It happens, its a very important part because this country would not have been what it is without the millions of slaves who did the work to make it what it is. Host that comes across clearly in your book the role of slavery as an emotional support and user support in other ways. And you, he went to Portugal Research the origins of the slave trade and twisted moral codes that were adopted to rationalize the business which was very profitable why take on physical and emotional experiences . What did they add to your sense of the family story . Guest for me i didnt have any idea of what to my enslaved ancestors had gone through. I felt like i was missing part of myself. So i looked for them looks for mandy and all the laces you named i looked for coreen and mount pelee are i literally walked in their footsteps just a profound experience. And so doing just an inkling of what might ancestors had gone through. Its how they help shape me. I learned about their incredible strength, there enters strength and their balance their sense of hope. The sense of values that they had that passed down to all of their descendents. True for every family not just mine. Host if you have questions for the doctor down the bottom will get to him soon as possible see you just threw yourself in with the strips you went on also to confirm the family lineage and the stories you had heard not just through Historic Records but through dna and enlisted the help of doctor bruce jackson. You approach the National Society of madison descendents about authenticating your families dna. Where did that leave you . Guest it look like it would be a doctor jackson emphasize again again be careful with the genealogy. If you compare your dna to the wrong person they can say see i told you. So the National Society did identify one man with genealogy. Who will initially was able to to submit in the dna setting. But what happens shortly after that there was a big article they just didnt want to get involved in the brouhaha. Since then i havent been interested in that. Ive been feeling more and more the proof other africanamerican families have to do. But thats not whats important part. That fasten he been asked many, many times would it matter to you if it you did get proof that you were not a descendent of james mattis you came to an interesting place with that id love to hear more about that. Guest that will be great for the book. [laughter] its about much more than marketing. Its really about understanding who you are and its about honoring and respecting the place knowing you inherited a lot of their strengths. And you have an opportunity to contribute just as much as they did to this country. So its about knowing who you are. Host do you have any sense of the role, faith or religions or what faith and religion played with your slave ancestors who mustve been strong people inside and out how has that faith had your life . Guest my enslaved ancestors were strong christians as most slaves were. But their sense of community is an important component to our values. Its passed down to all of us including myself. My daily sense of who i am. Guest thank you for sharing your family story have you been in touch with other . The Sally Hemmings family descendents tell me more about that. Guest yes on two occasions on one at the university of virginia. I would say maybe three years ago i cant remember exactly. There was a symposium at the university i was with descendents of james monroe i slaves that works at the university thats owned by the university. And later, just last year, i was out montpelier is in another town there is the descendents of monroe, jefferson, and washington. So yes i have met them. And stayed in contact. Guest youve built so many relationships in this journey, several with the people who work at mount pelee year as well as many, many others. Well talk about this is the most elite of elite americans called the father of the constitution, student of the enlightenment preserving the sacred fire of liberty. Its the very foundation of Americans National because get this is the man who had the political compromise to count enslaved africans as humans. You do so much to flesh out the people that are in your slave descendent line rate how do you make sense of these contradictions in james mattis . My other question is does it even matter who he was . Guest doesnt matter who he was . That is a good question. Its a tough one. I think it does matter. It hard to go about his faults the greatest a few freed slaves lived up to the ideals. But he didnt. He didnt free a single slave. Because he couldnt. Host im sorry i cut you off. Guest George Washington freed the slaves he did free some slaves. Thomas jefferson had slaves was probably direct descendents. James mattis did not free a single slave. The closest he came to that was his slave, billy who went to philadelphia whose contract madison sold to a northerner knowing that eventually or assuming any way that eventually he would be freed and he was freed. Madison himself did not for him. So like jefferson and all of them they lived with strange dichotomy of having all of these lofty ideals, wonderful ideals but not truly being able to live up to them. I think probably its how we do things here. You might flesh out the wrong they knew what was wrong. Its very hard for them to do. What positive or negative reactions have you received from your book . Guest so far billy had positive reactions. [inaudible] host im sure there will be controversy of people disputing the account and dna test for Sally Hemmings family. Guest writes, right. Mentioned building relationships that montpelier and you mention speaking at workshops and symposia there. Reexamining historical narratives and how they are formed, who is included, there is a real history that they want to contextualize how we remember whether it is that story of Sally Hemmings and monte and the History Center has been contextualizing a lost cause civil war monuments. How do you think, how would you like your family story to be reflected at montpelier . Guest well, mount pelee of the first time i went there all telling was in 1992. Because they were the day i arrived for the first time, i was able to see an excavation site which was the south kitchen. They were looking for the truth. They were trying to learn who they were, what they did, how they played a role in james mattis life at montpelier. And what their contributions were to the country they were already doing that. And they have continued to do that. My relationship with them, they are my friends they have always been supportive and really interested in my story. They want the whole story. And one of my aunts, careens famous up on the wall were other slaves are listed. As i was involved in the exhibits it was called mere distinction of color, which is from james mattis, and that exhibit is something i feel all american should see. Because it puts the role of slaves in perspective. And it talks about their role at mount pelee year how they were dealt with in the constitution the fact they were people and not just commodities. I would like to say there were millions of slaves they were millions of individuals. The visit to mount pelee or encourages you to see that. Host what does that mean to have the fuller more inclusive picture of American History . Guest it is the whole story it is the real story. Its the voices that werent heard. African slaves were not able to speak for themselves but they left their mark everywhere. From new york city they built all over the country in boston and everywhere i have lived this is the mark of the slaves there. See when question from jen the story of your family is amazing. Your message of what its like to be black in america. What would you like people and women in particular to take with me story . Guest women in particular . Yes what was like people and women in particular to take away from your story . As i was writing the book i could not imagine a black woman reading this book and seeing they had things to. I hoped that they would pass down those same qualities that they would tell their own children about those qualities. Theres a Chapter Chapter in the book its called visiting. That is the chapter that is about rape. One specific message i have wanted to convey was that rape could happen in any setting. One setting within marriage. So i did want to approach ray that to all women marriage is not necessarily have the possibility being sexually abused. Stay when theres a lot for readers to read into about the se