Ask the question, how do we strengthen not only the quantity of time with people but even more importantly the quality of time . Watch book this weekend on cspan2. Good evening, everyone. And candace, one of the event managers here at town offered on behalf of townhall seattle im welcoming you to tonights lifestream with investigative journalist david wrote an conversation with podcast and radio host [inaudible]. As we get underway at like to acknowledge there are institution stands on the unsuited traditional territory of the [inaudible] people, [inaudible]. We thank them for their uses of their Natural Resources from their ancestral homeland. Were thrilled to be able to present this event virtually with concerns surrounding public health. Were proud to be unity focused organization and where we can sustain ideas and creativity. Like to think david and steve for appearing tonight to help make that happen. 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If you are interested in supporting local independent bookstores by purchasing a copy of tonights books we are partnering with [inaudible] books tonight and you can purchase through the button that is just at the bottom of this page. Tonights conversation will be about 45 minutes, followed by a q a portion. Our moderators select questions from those cemented in the ask a question field at the bottom of center of your screen. You can vote on which questions you would like us to answer first by clicking the arrow next to the question to up loaded. We can carry guarantee that will get to all questions but we will get through as many as we can. Please keep them concise and in the form of a question. Gentry our civic series is supported by realnetworks foundation, Richard Brown foundation, the winco foundation. Finally townhall is member supported organization so id like to think the members watching tonight. Now onto our speakers. David road is an executive editor of new yorker. Com. He is a former reporter for raiders, New York Times, Christian Science monitor but he was awarded a Pulitzer Prize for International Reporting in 1996 for stories that helped expose the massacre during the war in bosnia. In 2019 he shared a Pulitzer Prize with the team of time supporters for the coverage of afghanistan and pakistan. The author of beyond war, reimagining americas role and inventions in the new middle east. Also, a robe and a prayer, the story of a kidnapping coauthored with his wife and endgame, the betrayal involved of [inaudible] the worst massacre since world war ii. He [inaudible] he is a former host of ku w fm weekdays and interviews at the interview of washington since 2009. His indepth interviews with awardwinning authors, political leaders, scientists, artists and activists citizens are noted for their intelligence and sensitivity. Thank you, candace. Thank you, candace. Very nice. Thank you, david. Its good to see you through the magic of tis technology. Thank you, and thanks to everybody who is watching. Theres a message that said steve rocks so were off to a great start thanks to you. Host thats my flipped and neighbor and former journalist. Chris. We walk our dogs together when we can. I guess not right now. Not walking the dogs together right now. Guest have to take any support you can get. Host amen. Amen. Where are you right now . No im in my parents innages in house in kennebunkport, med. I usually live in new york city. My wife has asthma and reduced lung capacity so we left the city at the covid outbreak was spreading. So we are here in maine, and were safe and well. Talk to my friends in new york who are thrill and im very worried about them but looks like things are getting better. Seattle set a good example for the country in flattening the curve. Host in many ways it has, thats true. Im glad you guys got to be in a place where youre more comfortable in all the ways you need to be more comfortable. Guest were lucky. Host funny what you said about seattle. We could start with this. When the protesters yesterday, day before yesterday, came to olympia, to complain about the infringements on their personal freedoms because of the restrictions from social distancing and others, one of the signs more than one of the signs that they were holding up as they gathered together, much closer than six feet, was now no more from the deep state. How do you suppose in their thinking the response to covid19 is a symbol or a not a symbol but an action by the deep state. Guest so, the conservatives that have i will ruck different people use the term deep state in different ways. Thecrest conservative i guess the appropriates rue of the deep state is the administrative state, and thats this kind of evergrowing federal government, state government, relentlessly encroaching, they feel, on americans lives, on their rights to vaccines, gun control, education, curriculum, and so they feel that the deep state, the warnings but coronavirus are exaggerated and its another example of unelected government officials, elitists in washington, dictating to average americans how they should live their lives. Host i see. Well, lets define it. Lets take all the definitions of deep state. When did that term first dom be prevalent . Guest so, one of the reasons i wrote the book is to try to come up with a clear definition of the deep state, and ive actually come to the conclusion i dont like the term. Its used in a lot oft different ways, pejorative tomorrow but started out as a term that political scientists used to talk about the military and the country of turkey, and the dynamic in that country of the military Intelligence Service block eggmer generals of democracy in turkey, and the same thing in egypt, and it wasnt really used or applied to the american government, the earliest example was a book written in 2007 by a university of california uc berkeley professor named peter dale scott. I tracked hem down and interviewed him for my book. His view of the deep state, if this more of another dish mentioned this earlier another view of kind of an oppressive government the way liberal its view it they dont use the term deep spate but talk but the military industryial complex and thats generals and defense contractors who push the country into endless war. Peter dale scotts defendant mission was mobile like that. He was suspicious of 9 11 and suspicious of wall street and their power. So, until 2007, he did some interviews on info wars, Alex Jones Show and that was an example of the left and right coming together in their suspicion of the federal government, but before 2016, the term deep state just really wasnt i think widely in use among average americans. Host did you talk to any conservative deepstater ill use that two saw who wreck noised the concern of the military Industrial Complex . , historically or currently. Guest there is unity. One person that has brought this up and comes to mind is senator rand paul of kentucky, the libertarian republican and he is very nervous about the u. S. Being drag into wars overseas, extremely skeptical about the National Security agency and surveillance, and then his Kindred Spirit is senator ron widen of oregon, the liberal who is very concern about eavesdropping and theres too much spying going on in this country. So, there is growing distrust of the federal government. There was a pole i read in 2018 that set me off into writing the book which found that 70 of americans think that theres a group of unelected officials and military officials who secretly manipulate u. S. Government policy in washington. Host you know issue always think but when the runup to the campaign, donald trump was asked about his support for russia, given all the negative things russia had done in the world and trumps response, i thick it was to bill oriley, was you think were so great . Were not so great. Were not so innocent. We have done a lot of things, too. I always thought that was an interesting response and i wonder if do you think that resonated with some of of the people who came to support donald trump. Guest i think it did. Theres people who mock donald trump and question his mental stability. He is extremely good at messaging, very, very good at consistently presenting a narrative that appeals to people and in terms of what the u. S. Has done around the world, hes right. I start my book in 1977. There was a huge investigation by the senate, called the Church Committee, frank church, the senator from idaho, chaired it and they investigated fbi and cia activitied throughout the cold war and they exposed assassinations, the cia was spying on americans inside this country. They were surveilling john lennon when he protested against the vietnam war. The fbi is famous for wiretapping and harassing Martin Luther king jr. And trying to defame him. J. Ed guard hoover had a list of 27,000 americans who were subversives in miss view at that time would be rounded up through in case of emergency. Norman mailer was on the list. And it was amazing number of scandals, but what has changed and what trump didnt mention is there was this whole system was created in the late 70s. President ford did after watergate, president carter as well to try to control the fbi and the cia, and current members talked to a lot of people, current and former member offered the fbi and Central Intelligence agency and claim they operate differently since all these protections and oversight mechanisms were put in place in the late 70s. Host i guess until the abu ghraib and watergate. The iraq war. Guest you got me. Thats true. And so theres host well guest go ahead, keep going. Host well, did you interview rand paul for this book . Guest i did not. He i tried to speak with him but he declined to speak with me. Host i wonder what he would say. In some ways his politics might look back on the 70s reforms and say, yes, these were concerns. I mentioned that i grew up in chicago where a bunch of black panthers were killed by through very, very underhashedded means. How is that. So underhanded means. Do we come around . You mentioned alex jones, he goes around like this but is there a coming together of the concern about the deep state . I was going to say brig brother. Guest not among mainstream republicans and mainstream democrats. There was a lot of look, these systems were put in as a federal court that supposed to the fisa court which well talk but that approves warrants for eavesdropping. Theres new committees were created in congress, the intelligent Oversight Committee, ronwideen is on them and the idea was to have courts overlooking eavesdrops you had to have a warrant to do that if youre a member of the fbi. A pan on assassinations abroad that ford signed for the cia to carry out a covert action in other countries it had to be written and then the president had to sign a covert finding, copies of that finding went to the leading members of congress from both parties. Cia directors were supposed to fbi directors were supposed to serve no longer than ten years to prevent j. Edgar hoover from emerging and all these Congressional Committees have subpoena power and this more extensive that other kin true. No committees in he england or germany or france that can subpoena those countries Intelligence Services. All that said, i know theres a bunch of people out in who say, this is a joke, theyre out of control. Just to go to 9 11, the detention and torture practices that went on were approved by the Bush Administration. The Justice Department wrote famous legal opinions saying this was legal, cia officers who were involved in that said they were following the orders, they were lawful orders that by a duly elect president. It wasnt rogue operations. That is the difference, the cia and fbi were doing things on their own during the cold war. I get it. People dont believe it. In terms terms of a assassinati, barack obama cared out a Record Number of drone strikes that were in essence assassins and one of an american citizen, alaulaqi was killed in yemen by a u. S. Drone strike. No proceedings, no presentation of evidence and a u. S. Citizen was killed by the u. S. Government. Host remarkable numbers on that, reading again in your book. Well come back to that. Let me circle back to the beginning. These 1970s Church Committee reforms, postwatergate reforms more broad limit did they curtail president ial power . Did they shift power from the executive to congress . Guest they did and then the broader question in the book is how do you control the cia and the fbi, and also like prevent them from carrying out abuses and then how do you prevent president s from doing that, and there was a school of thought, and bill barr, the current u. S. Attorney general, is part of this group, but when ford agreed to changes two member offered the staff, dick cheney and donald resumes field, worked in the ford white house, apposed this. Antonin scalia who was a conservative legal scholar, thought that after watergate the creation of the Oversight Committee and the creation of inspectors general in terms of spending of the emergency funds for coronavirus. Those were independent, apolitical positions, created by congress, and they were supposed to investigate intending and abuse and corruption in the executive branch, and there was a school of thought, and bill barr is a big member of this, that essentially the presidency was being weakened. To much oversight by congress. Too mach subpoenas from the Congressional Committee and bill barr gave a peach to the federal society and felt there was too much active jim from judges, too many liberal judges, an opponent oft abortion rights. Saw that as the courts go too far but in term odd the president s power he complain recently under President Trump, the immigration orders stopped by federal judges, there were several on the west coast that stopped things trump was trying to carry out and i think the muslim ban, and he just said thats overreach. We need a strong presidency, to protect this country in moments of disaster, pandemics like today and moment offered war and barr argues the presidency more than the legislative branch or the Judicial Branch has performed the best when the country is under threat and favors a strong presidency that cant be encumbered or slowed down in it actions by other branches. Host two questions on that. One, is there any evidence in your reporting, in the world, that we have seen a this is a little bit like evidence by we dont really have the example but there is any evidence that a strong president has done a better job than the legislatures or the legislature here in congress over during times of crisis . Guest barr would argue that post 9 11, that the president needed to detain suspected terrorists and put them in guantanamo bay. That was the president opening up the prison and running it as he like. The Bush Administration ran a warrantless wire tapping program. They did not go to the federal court and ask for warrants. They again felt that was needed and most americans sported it after 9 11. But this is a big debate. And if you fast forward to today, you have this belief among barr and other conservatives in a strong executive and then donald trump who welcomes that power, and says he wants it at times and we can get into the Coronavirus Response but he sort of gone back and forth on, i am the ultimate authority as president , to, its up to states to decide. But ill just these are central questions about how should our democracy function. Should all three branches be equally powerful or do we need a strong presidency. So, were sort of living through an amazing moment in american history. Host i had thought that the founders wrote the constitution and n such a way there were three coequal branches of government which would put checks and banned on wasnt another. What would bill barr say to that. Guest article 2 of the constitution describes an executive branch that has full authority over the carrying out, executing the laws and running the government as the chief of the executive branch sees fit. That is his view of the constitution and there are conservative scholars who agree. Congress has struggled. Its 0 divided plate okay. Its not that i cant thing of a big legislative package that ementioned where congress was leading the way. A sense that since 9 11, the presidency has kind of regained whatever power lost port of postwatergate. When donald trump says im the president and i can do whatever i want, because im the president , they they point to article 2, theres nothing else in the constitution that i can point to that says, wait a minute issue thought there was some oversight that comes into play. Guest the many mechanism is an election. Barr primary thing, is that the executive will be held accountable in regular elections and impeachment are the two main mechanisms joy can hope they will always then respect the outcome of any election or impeachment. If they say their power is up encompassing they can also say, this impeachment proceeding is a fraud and we wont comply with it because we dont have to because were the executive. Isnt that part over the argument they make. Guest thats part of the argument and what want with the recent impeach