Deep the fbi, the cia, and the truth about americas deep state. Good evening, everyone. Im candace, where the Event Management townhall. Its my pleasure to welcome you to tonight live stream with investigative journalist david rohde in conversation with podcast radio host. As a get and where electric knowledge our institution stands on the territory, we thank him m for continued use of the Natural Resources of the ancestral homeland. Thank you all so much for tuning in. Were thrilled to present this event virtually. Were proud to be a Community Focused organization. Id like to thank david and steve for appearing tonight to help make that happen. For viewers who want to watch this broadcast with Close Caption we recommended viewing the screen via our youtube page. To enable Close Captioning, click the cc button in the bottom right corner. The video will be available for watching immunity following ten nights broadcast. 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And town hall is a Member Organization and like to thank the members watching tonight and now on to our speakers. David rohde is an executive editor of new yorker. Com. He is a former reporter for ruthers, the New York Times and the Christian Science monitor. He was awarded a Pulitzer Prize for International Reporting in 1996, for stories that helped expose the massacre during the war in bosnia. And in 2009 he shared a Pulitzer Prize with a team of times reporters for the coverage of afghanistan and pakistan. Hes the author of beyond war reimagining americas role and new ambitions in the middle east and also a rope and a prayer, a story of a kidnapping coauthored with his life and end game, betrayal and fall against europes worst massacre since world war ii. Steve shore is a podcaster, writing, interviewer and the host of weekday and taught at university of washington since 2009. His end up interviews with award wink authors, political leaders, artists, active citizens are most noted. S a part of the social movement thats democratizing access and chief correspondent of town halls chief podcast at the moment and steven is the host of the podcast series at links. Rohdes book in deep, the truth about americas deep state is the subject of tonights talk. Please join me in welcoming them. Thank you. Very nice, good to see you, david, through technology. And there was a message that said steve rocks. Were off to a good start. Thats my friend and neighbor and former journalists, former journalists chris. [laughter] we walk our dogs together when we can. I guess not right now. Were not walking our dogs together right now. Got to take any support you can get anywhere. Amen. Where are you right now . I am in my parents in laws house in kennebunkport, maine. Usually live in new york city. My wife has asthma and reduced lung capacity so we left the city as the covid outbreak was spreading so were here in maine and safe and well. I talked to a lot of my friends in new york who are still there and im very worried about them, but things look like theyre getting better. Seattle set a good example of the country in flattening its curve. In many ways it has, thats true, im glad you guys got to be in a place where youre more comfortable in all the ways that you need to be more comfortable. Yeah, were lucky. Its funny what you said about seattle because here is what i was thinking and we could start with this. When the protesters yesterday, day before yesterday came to olympia to complain about the infringements on their personal freedoms because of the restrictions from social distancing and others, one of the signs, more than one of the signs that they were holding up as they gathered together much closer than six feet, was no more from the deep state. How do you suppose in their thinking the response to covid19 is a symbol or a not a symbol, but an action by the deep state . Sort the conservatives sort of have well talk about this, different people use deep state in different ways. So the conservatives and im guessing those protesters, their view of the deep state is sort of term i use is the Administrative State and thats this kind of ever growing federal government, state government, thats relentlessly encroaching, they feel, on americans lives, to their rights to vaccines, gun control, education, you know, curriculum and so, they feel the deep state, the reports of coronavirus are exaggerated and unelected government officials and elitists in washington dictating how americans should live their lives. I see. Well, lets define it. Lets take all the definitions of the deep state. When did that determine first come to be prevalent . So, one of the reasons i wrote the book to try to come up with a clearer definition of the deep state and ive actually come to the conclusion i dont really like the term. Its used in a lot of different ways, its pejorative term, but its a term that political scientists used to talk about the military in the country of turkey and the dynamic in that country of the military intells against services blocking the emergence of democracy in turkey, and same with egypt blocking emergence of democracy there. And i found it was a book written in 2007 by a university of california berkeley professor, and i tracked him down and interviewed him for my book. His view of the deep state fits more of another, i mentioned this earlier, another view of kind of an oppressive government the way that liberals view it. They dont talk about the deep state, but about the military Industrial Complex, that would be generals and defense contractors who push the country into endless war. So peter scotts 2007 was more along those lines and defense contractors, he was suspicious how 9 11 came about, but also very suspicious of wall street and their power. Until 2007, you know, he did some interviews on info wars, alex jones show, the left and right coming together in their suspicion of the federal government, but before 2016, you know, the term deep state really wasnt, i dont think, widely in use among average americans. Did you talk to any conservatives, deepstaters, im going to use that, who saw who recognized the concern of the military Industrial Complex . Historically or currently . I mean, there is unity. One person that, you know, has brought this up and comes to mind is senator rand paul of kentucky, the libertarian republican and hes, you know, very nervous about the u. S. Being dragged into wars overseas, extremely skeptical about, you know, the National Security agency and surveillance, and then his Kindred Spirit is senator ron wyden, a liberal, concerned about eavesdropping and too much spying going on in this country. So there is growing distrust of the federal government. There was a poll i read in 2018 that set me off into writing the book, 70 of the americans think that theres a group of unelected officials and military officials who secretly manipulate u. S. Government policies in washington. You know, i always think about when the runup to the xap campaign, donald trump was asked about russia and the things that russia negative things they did in the work and his response to bile oriley, were not so great and weve done a lot of things, too, i thought that was an interesting response and i wonder, do you think that resonated with some of the people who came to support donald trump . I think it did. And i think, you know, theres people who mock donald trump and question his mental stability. Hes extremely good at messaging. Hes very, very good at consistently, you know, presenting a narrative that appeals to people and in terms of, you know, what the u. S. Has done around the world, hes right. I start my book in 1977. There was a huge investigation by the senate, it was called the Church Committee, frank church, senator from idaho chaired it and they investigated, you know, fbi and cia activities throughout the cold war and they exposed, you assassinations, and the cia was spying on americans in this country and he was surveilling john lennon protesting the war. And j. Edgar hoover had a list of 26,000 americans who were subversives in his view, that would be rounded up if there was in case of emergency, Norman Mailer was on that list. Anyway, it was an amazing number of scandals, but whats changed and trump didnt mention was theres this whole system was created in the late 70s. President ford did it after watergate and president carter as well to try to control the fbi and the cia and you know, current member i talk to a lot of current and former members of the fbi and cia and theyve claimed theyve operated differently since all of these protections were put in police in the late 70s. I guess until abu ghraib and watergate, the iraq war. Well, you got me. [laughter] thats true and so theres well go ahead, keep going. Well, did you interview rand paul for this book . I did not. I tried it speak with him, but he declined to speak with me. I wonder what he would say. I mean, would he in some ways his politics might look back on the 70s reforms and say, yes, these were concerns. I mentioned that i grew up in chicago where a bunch of black panthers were killed by, you know through very, very underhanded means, how is that . So i wonder what you know, do we come around . You said alex jones. Yes. I dont know if he ever goes around like this, but does he there a coming together of the concern about the deep state . I was going to say state not among mainstream republicans and mainstream democrats. There was a lot of look, these systems were put in as a federal court thats supposed to the fisa court, Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court which well talk about thats approved warrants for eavesdropping. Theres new committees that were created in congress, intelligence oversight committees, ron wyden is on them and the idea was to have courts overlooking eavesdropping, that you had to have a warrant to do that if you were a member of the fbi. There was a ban on assassinations abroad that for the cia to carry out a covert action in the country and it had to be written and the sign of covert findings and copies went to leading members of congress from both parties, cia directors were supposed to serve no longer than 10 years to prevent j. Edgar hoover from emerging and all of these congressional committees have subpoena power and they can demand to see any documents and this is much more extensive than what other countries have. There arent committees in the legislative bodies in england, germany or france that can subpoena those countries and intelligence services. All that said, i know theres a bunch of people who say this is a joke, theyre out of control. Just to go to 9 11, the detention and torture practices that went on were approved by the push administration, the Justin Department wrote, you know, famous legal opinions saying that this was legal. The cia officers who, you know, were involved in that said they were, you know, following the orders, they were lawful orders by a dually elected president. It wasnt rogue operations, that would have been the differen difference. The cia and fbi were doing things in the cold war. I get it, people dont believe it in terms of assassination, barack obama, a democratic president carried out a Record Number of drone strikes that were in essence assassinations and there was even one of an american citizen anwar alaki was killed in yemen and a u. S. Citizen was killed by the u. S. Government. Pretty remarkable numbers on that reading in your book. Well come back to that and let me circle back to the beginning. These 1970 Church Committee reforms, postwatergate reforms more broadly, did they curtail president ial power . Did they shift power from the executive to congress . They did and then the kind of broader question in the book is how do you control the cia and fbi and also prevent them from carrying out abuses and then how do you prevent president s from doing that . Theres a cool of thought and when they look at the changes, two members of the staff was actually dick cheney and donald rumsfeld, and both worked in the white house opposed this. Antonin scalia, was a scholar and then went on to the Supreme Court, the watergate oversight committees and creators of the inspectors general and thats a lot in terms of the emergency spending funds for coronavirus. Those were independent, apolitical positions created by congress and they were supposed to investigate spending and abuse and corruption in the executive branch. And there was a school of thought and bill barr is a big member of this that essentially the presidency was being weakened too much. There was too much oversight by congress. Too much subpoenas from the congressional committees about what the executive branch was doing and then bill barr ga i ha have gave a speech about this and felt there was too much activism and hes an opponent of abortion rights and saw that as going too far. In terms of the president s power he felt, he complained about just recently under President Trump, these immigration orders that would be stopped by federal judges, there were several on the west coast that stopped things trump was trying to carry out. I think the muslim ban as it was called. He said thats overreach. We need a strong presidency to protect this country in moments of disaster and moments of war and barr argued the presidency more than the legislative branch and Judicial Branch performed the best when the country is under threat and he favors a strong presidency that cant be, you know, encumbered or slowed down in its actions by these other branches. Questions on that, one, is there any evidence, in your reporting, in the world, that we have seen this is a little bit like evident by dd we dont really have the example, but is there any evident that a strong president has done a better job than the legislatures or the legislature here in congress, over during times of crisis . You know, barr would argue that post 9 11 that the president needed to detain suspected terrorists and put them in guantanamo bay. That was the president opening up the prison and running it as he liked. The bush administration, you know, they ran a warrantless wiretapping program. They did not go to the federal court and asked for warrants and felt they needed it and most americans supported it after 9 11, but this is a big debate and you know, if you fast forward to today, you have this, you know, belief among barr and other conservatives in, you know, the strong executives and then you have donald trump who welcomes that power and you know, says he wants it at times and we can get into the coronavirus response, but hes sort of gone back and forth, i am the ultimate authority on president to its up to the states to decide. These are central questions about, you know, how should our democracy function. Should all three branches be equally powerful or do we need a strong presidency. So were sort of living through an amazing moment in American History. Well, i thought that the founders who wrote the constitution in such a way that they were three coequal branches of government that would put checks and balances on one another, what would bill bar say to that . It article two of the constitution, and describes an executive branch, full authority, carrying out and executing the laws and running the government as the chief of the executive branch sees fit. Thats his view of the constitution and there are conservative scholars who agree with that. And to be fair, congress has really struggled. You cant its so divided politically. Were so divided, i cant think of a legislative package that kind of emerged from congress in the last few presidencies where congress is sort of leading the way. Anyway, since 9 11, the president has kind of regained whatever power it lost post watergate. So when donald trump says im the president and i can do whatever i want because im the president , that they and they point to article two, theres nothing else in the constitution that i can point to that says, oh, weather maker wait a minute, i can put into play. And barrs that the president will be held accountable and impeachment are the two main mechanisms. I can hope theyll always respect the outcome of any election or outcome of any impeachment. If they say their power is all encompassing, they can also say this impeachment proceeding is a fraud and we wont comply with this because we dont have to because were the executive. Isnt that part of the argument they make . Thats part of the argument and thats what happened with the recent impeachment proceeding, a political proceeding. To be fair to bill barr, there was a period recently where trump was pushing him to go easy on roger stones sentencing, and barr gave this very unusual interview with abc news where he said the president tweets and demands the sentence that roger stone receive be less was making it impossible for bill barr to do his job. So i think theres a red line. One of the things that came out of the watergate things and these scandals from the past is that the attorney general under nixon, know, John Mitchell as attorney general was punishing the president s enemies and helping his friends. So attorney generals are supposed to apply the law