Tonights event is part of our brandnew Virtual Event series. Were excited to continuethe work of bringing authors and their writers to our community. Every week we will be hosting events here on our podcast page and just like always Events Schedule will appear on our website harpers. Com and you can sign up for an email or newsletter for more updates. Running us for our next event featuring neal schuman discussing his book some Assembly Required decoding form dillion years of life from ancient fossils to dna. This evenings event will conclude with time for questions. If youd like to ask the speaker something go to the ask a question button at the bottom of the screen. Please be considerate with your question, we will get as many as time allows. You will sink see a link to purchase your copy. All sales through this link support harpers bookstore so huge thanks for your generosity during this difficult and uncertain time. Your purchases make this new virtual author series possible and now more than ever ever truly insure the landmark of an independent bookstore. Thank you forshowing up for authors , publishers, and the bookselling and our stock here at harpers bookstores virtual space. We appreciate your support. And now im so pleased to introduce tonight speakers. Michael arceneaux is the author of the celebrated New York Times essay collection love, sex, family, race and other reasons i put my face in faith in beyoncc. He is a voice on twitter previously writer at large for new York Magazine and a staff number for grant land which i miss dearly and his other writings have been published in the New York Times, the ringer, Time Magazine and other numerous publications. We will be discussing michaels newest book i dont want to die poor, and essay collection about the experience to survive the roots, rave review of this book , specific and centering trauma of in Financial Insecurity and essays as relatable as they are prescient. Arceneaux catalogs is endeavored to form a life among americas most pervasive falsehoods area acclaimed author about the 16th praises the book observing that arceneauxs brilliance lies in how quietly he leads us to our own empathy forcing us to examine what it means to exist in a world that makes it increasingly difficult. Were delighted to host this event tonight. Withoutfurther ado i will turn things over to michael. My first question in this post have a technical difficulty world. You wrote a book that people love and it was critically acclaimed. New york times bestseller, all that stuff. What went on in your head when you were like okay, lets try to do it again. Is that terrifying . Are you trying to meet expectations that you had originally in your head where you already like i want to write books plural. I mean if i had my way i would have gotten my book deal even though i had a vision of my life andcareer. In many ways i wanted to be specific about literally early 30s, that connoisseur phase but i knew that early on that was impacting my life and you work in media, you consume a lot of media and youre clear about the narrative and you can always tell when something is going to change and talking about Student Loans i didnt feel that i wanted to write the same boring tritepresentation of gay black men. In order to write the book i didnt know necessarily i was even getting another book deal, it was contingent on the first one. But i knew i cant debut this out and i got to write the book that i wanted to but it would do well enough to where i could tell this and i wanted another idea, i dont know if its really me and obviously we will see, i dont know, it depends. Does writing about Something LikeStudent Loans, is that something that haunts you and you cant ever get too far away from . Was the process of writing about it equal parts triggering and therapeutic or for me, as someone that also has an amount of Student Loans that are so large, im kind of accepted unless something crazy in my life this is just a bill that ipay until im 80 or Something Like that. One of thosethings. Is it for you dealing with it head on , what was that process like, youre already thinking about Student Loans a lot and they dont disappear but dense deciding to write about it does that add to the stress and anxiety . I wrote about how to pay them off and at first i would be not necessarily content but i would make peace with it that i couldnt pay it off until i was 80 but i never have the option. You have a plan, pay up or no, its more like youre going to pay. I didnt have the option so i had no no choice. Generally i dont like talking about debt, any part of writing or admitting to how, one thing i learned a lot of his i knew everything that i needed to get it by the time i wrote it otherwise i wouldnt put it out but i knew it would be more revealing than anything. I think talking about money is personal particularly if you grow up with it but it was awkward to write because frankly i didnt say no all the way a lot of things that happened last year, i struggled more than i thought i would and it was a nightmare to write it and live it knowing that you can honestly, most of the book is right now that the fragility of the situation and how so much of it is beyond your control or the fact that you get just a little bit ahead if you dont have afinancial base. I was just kind of humiliated writing the book. To start it i guess but mostly this was a pain. I needed to get it done better than the first book so thats what it was. I think something that was super interesting to read that i dont know if i had even fully unpacked myself is the kind of connection between the decisions of your late teens, early 20s and lingering shame. It is kind of crazy, i think a lot of people talk about college and it being one of the Big Decisions of your life. Its kind of the romanticized version of it like where do you go . That campus determines a lot but theres also the other part which is the financial thing that a lot of times youre an 18yearold deciding not always unilaterally but you dont really know what youre getting yourself into. Especially if you come from a family where money is not a casual thing. Theres not a slush fund. Just that idea of this thing was so interesting to read and i think willrelate to a lot of people who picked this up. I feel like i didnt grow up with a lot of money but my mom was one of the first to be dealing with that board, and really her folks, but theres certainly Something Like journalism , i didnt even realize i was going to be ongoing. I didnt realize i was going to college but it wasnt a choice. I didnt realize it was a big deal. In terms of like the debt stuff, i didnt go into it, i knew you didnt make a lot of money at first. What no one could know is that we all traditionally had it imploded and i also graduated when that happened and the Great Recession happen so its virtually not like a real job. In some ways yes, i didnt completely know but even i was 17 and it inspired me and i did a lot. I guess i just didnt realize so much of what i thought existed, just was not going to be there anymore and that was more so the fact that i was born in the 1980s but it started with reagan and trump, theyre all packed together. Its us people all under 40, thats the stuff that nobody could have known so but the thing is that i felt a black man writing my mom down and it literally did not think that. Thats also the fact that to the larger point of the book, sometimes thats not fair and most of it is financial stuff when literally its just you going against the system. Going to take a quick pause. I dont want to diepoor. If youre watching this, that is true. Theres a button on the bottom to purchase if youd like. Because thats what youre talking about. I think its like a very, it is a good title. Whoever did your book covers, fantastic. I love the cover. One thing, i think it was the Second Chapter in the book. If you havent read it im going to try not to spoil too much but i want to talk about certain point in the book is youre talking about reality tv, talking about a world in which you almost became some on camera talent. Which is funny because it wasnt referenced in that chapter but there was a point where we were all almost on camera people for a show. Yes we were. Moving on, that chapter did remind me of something that i think so many have to deal with which goes against everything you know which is this idea of turning down the wrong money. Like if you dont, if you are in a position where you dont have a lot of money in your account, you know about these loans that just kind of float over your head and never disappear and then an opportunity shows up that even thats like youre at a point where any money is lifechanging money. That idea of still saying no is a particular type of lunacy. And delusion in your own long game that you dont in your own head with no ideaif its going to pan out. Talk me through what that process is like because its something that i think about a lot and ive seen people take. Ive seen people take what was obviously the wrong money i was jealous of them but i also knew they had about nine months to do the most with this money which is kind of what you were talking about when you talked about charade from the real housewives of atlanta. Talk about that because i think its a brilliant i was trying to do a lot of Different Things in that chapter. I think these niche cultural references are global but realizing the need in that chapter is in my case in that year, i didnt add that part of the book because that would have distracted but ill just say there was something that happened to me professionally that was beyond my control and unfortunate that altered the judiciary of my career so i wasnt in play and one media outlet in particular owed me a lot of money so i really did need the money but the thing was i really truly believe that i dont know if its goofy like a movie that theres old money or good money but for me i have a larger purpose and maybe i do know the way. I did turn down money along the way. I had nothing against Reality Television and if i thought it would be a means to an end that i could zip through it then sure but ultimately we reviewed that type of thing. As i write in the book im like there are literally on a whiteboard, i enjoy the television reading and if theres a way to complain about black homophobia, i dont know any friends which is cute but also as i mentioned in the chapter aside for meat which im a black man to i think it does a show on youtube that people would be into it because i think so many people copy black queer culture. And theres this other show thats like not really so as much as i love the real housewives i think its funny how they get money off of we are creatives and you get these shows where people get to be themselves again, im jaded but im complementing it because i think its great that the fundamentally they are black gay black men so we devaluethem and that applies to me to , not that im just poor but all due respect to my publisher but publishers dont value me that way just like other industries dont value black people that way so i was trying to a lot of that and recognizing the fact that i get why some people do this. I just personally think it wasnt worth it because one person warned me, she cracks me up but it wasnt worth it. They would have played me. It just wouldnt have been worth it. I will say that being in the world of criticism and occasionally taking a healthy hater approach to things that need to be called out, it does provide a certain amount of checks and balances when your life changes. When things pop up im like wait, am i about to do the things that i called courtney for five years. If i feel like im about to do that, thats pretty much my indicator to say no because i feel like coming up especially in the industry its like you want to do it your way and then, but youre watching people a little bit older than you just like take checks and when youre a raw twentysomething , how could you do that . You become 33 but okay, i get it but i still cant do it. You know they would have made me look like a bit. They would have made me look crazy and unprofessional. I know my heart but i also know my mouth. Thing about that is people that go into that thinking ill be different, you think youre special. No ones vessel, they would have played me , no thank you. One thing i thought as someone that knows you and someone who is also a black man from the south that shares lots of cultural references, when youre writing a book something that you hope will be consumed widely, there is a world in which you tone down some of the you know, the harris references and then theres all world in which your you know what, im not going to handhold basically like older white people who might not know the people im talking about every fifth or sixth line which also feel like when youre working with white editors and journalism dont know what youre talking about red when youre writingthis , were there moments where you were like should i like, am i getting too referential or is this their a momentlike this having a beer but you want to double down. Keep going. I never think about that. Nothing wrong if you do things about it. I dont think right or wrong but if you do and thats fine. If that works for you. My thought about that is i read a bunch of stuff from people of all types read if i dont know what theyre talking about igoogle and figure it out. Its not really that hard. Im not going to, i guess theres consequences but again like the niche references but you know, im not going to bend to a lens that dont ever been to me so i think ultimately, i dont mean to soundantagonistic but i need to trust the reader. Theres very nice older white people in their 70s email me, many would say i didnt quite completely understand everything but i really got the heart of the story or they did what ido. They looked it up and theyre like oh, i get itnow. And it might have introduced them to something they would have thought of in a different way when i write stuff. What is this . So i dont know. I refuse to. Theres a sentence that says i dont care about white black guys and its not that i hate white people, its we are told often to center whiteness and writing about blackness, youre not writing about being black, youre being black and white space and how they view you which is fineif thats what you write about but theyre not the same. If you like it, you like it and if you dont you dont, were good. What would you say was going back reading your own book , what would you say is the anecdote or the story that you enjoyed rereading the most, not necessarily like you enjoyed writing the most because enjoying writing sometimes isnt real because writing often is hard stuff but. Dont do it. Like, whats the story . Is there a story in the book that you feel like really sums up . The whole thing is about who you are but is there one story where im going to open this book and show you one story that ithink is going to get youinto this book. What is that . So the book is actually funny but i guess if i had to pick something to lead, i guess maybe the best to know me would be the chapter that i write to my mom. That was the one i cried writing that in a coffee shop in harlem. Had to apologize to the owner because it was hard to get out. I cried reading the audiobook. I didnt hate writing it. It was really painful to write back. I got over it and i think it speaks to the core of who i am. Like, the anger , i just think it revealed fundamentally what its like to come from chaos and at the same time i have a hard and be considered compassionate with people so probably that one but maybe the wrapper chapter. Blackened gave future. Finally. Ive been waiting for it. Its my passion. Theres something in reading, you write that i feel like theres a lot of it that is kind of, its inspiring to me because i find myself when i think about books or essays or things that i want to write that feel superpersonal, i have an excuse to not do it, i run straight to like how will someone feel about this when it comes out and why did i just run to the end . As soon as an idea pops up that stuff, i cant do that because soandso might be offended by it. And then i step away from it and in reading this its like its a reminder that write it and then get it out first. Then make that decision. Writing about like for you, how has the process been of writing . I dont want to write all my personal stuff about my life after everyones dead. I want to write some stuff that people are alive and can see and thats difficult. How has that process beenfor you . Youre talking about people who will then read it. Im always proud of the fact that you are, when youre writing your story youre also including other peoples stories so its very important to beconsiderate. And not only in how much of other peoples stories are included but whether or not you need to even include some kind of access in the case of like trying to take on the internet, when you say about reading this, there are something that in hindsight i think because something happens to somebody outside, i think what is added to the book in a lot of ways perhaps , not perhaps, it would have but it would have been the right thing to do. So its not in there. It had would have been a benefit for that series butin that way , that can be something different. But my main goal was if im talking about anybody especially my family , its just to be respectful but i think ive mentioned before my auntie never said im special, i hope this anthem is right but just the fact that even though i might have stories about me that i want to tell, that might mean Different Things to other people if its an individual person, if it doesnt feel like to be included for whatever reason then i dont cause i still think there are other ways. And also i think for someone feel like writing will be a part of their life, for a long time i think its also you dont have to force everything right then read like holding onto stuff. Maybe figuring out the right time to tell that story i feel like is also helpful. Theres something very i think awesome that you said at the end of the book. Which i think really informs kind of why the book exists outside of the financial things that come with writing a book and writing a book being your job. You did your job. But this idea of learning to forgive yourself which is something you say i think it might even be on the last page of the book. But its very interesting because i think about i feel like my 30s, they are just making up for the sins of my